Store selling ‘Big Girls Blouses’ to men
Now, this isn’t going to be a post about the horrible things like epithets (the green-eyed man, the blond aristocrat, the blue eyed-boy, the dark haired youth ETC ETC!!!!) because I think that’s already been covered.
Neither is it going to be a post about those hideous euphemisms that we all love to hate. The beef bayonets, the hidden secrets, the elfhoods, the rising passions, the trees of life…. oh dear, don’t get me started.
No no no.
This is simply about words that I – me PERSONALLY, so if you disagree, don’t be offended – find jolting, jarring and are very likely to make me go D’OH!!!! when reading m/m.
Now – we all know that, like any range of people, gay men come in all shapes and sizes, all types and stereotypes from butch and manly to shreiky and girly and everything inbetween. But I don’t like a too girly hero. Yes yes yes, I know you are saying “Hey, you–what d’yer call Ambrose then? There’s a big girl’s blouse if ever I saw one!”
and you’d have a point. He is fainty, but 1. He HAD been ill for many many months and shouldn’t have been racketing around finding his libido when he should have been tucked up in bed being fussed over by his sisters and scoffing down the calves’ foot jelly like it was going out of fashion, and 2. He was a deliberate spoof on my part of “what would it be like to have a heroine who’s a hero?” Because m/m historical was pretty much rare at the time.
It’s funny, though because from the earlier days of the RECENT upsurge in popularity of m/m, many of the male historical leads were Big Girl’s Blouses. There’s Vadriel from Vadriel Vail, and Robert from Gaywyck – both prone to faints, and torrents of weeping at the drop of a shiny silk hat. There’s Andrew from The Master of Seacliff, who faints, cries, flings himself into people’s arms at the slightest provocation and needs rescuing more often than Penelope Pitstop. Then there’s Angel from Angel’s Evolution who is a poor little soul who never stops bloody whining.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed these books. There’s nothing I like better than a good old gothic novel, but for me, that sort of behaviour seems to fit best into that scenario.
Men who faint–without having a damned good reason for it, like having some kind of illness, or perhaps having been chained to a wall for 2 weeks–don’t convince me. Yes, I know it happens–my Dad has low blood pressure, and I’ve seen him go down like a tree if he doesn’t have a sugary coffee and a slice of marmeladey toast for breakfast, but give me a reason for your boy to faint, don’t have him falling over like some mad fainting goat.
And crying, too. Yes. Men cry. Yes you do, guys, admit it. Some cry a lot more than others, but not every guy does! I’ve rarely seen any boyfriend of mine do so (and I gave ’em lots of reason, believe you me) but not generally. And they don’t chat endlessly about feelings. I know this is verging into Chicks with Dicks territory now, so I’ll leave the sobbing here. *pat pat *
And while we are on the subject. i don’t like my men to giggle. Giggling is the trait of the Not Quite Sane. It can lead, without proper restraint to Cackling. and then we are only one step away from Becoming Voldemort. He giggled a lot if I remember. I think men are more likely to snicker, or snort or choke with laughter than giggle.
Sighing and wincing are contenders for “stamping on the book in retribution” too.(You see why I can’t have an e-reader?) The only time I’ve ever heard a man sigh is in boredom, or just to PISS ME OFF because he’s got bored with what I’m saying, or (also to piss me off) to be a patronizing git.
And who, lets be honest, WINCES? I remember reading one of the Potter books and Hermoine had developed a tendency to wince, like some Pavlovian tic, every time someone said something she didn’t like. It’s like…A silent movie way of describing things, or “what Homer Simpson would do.” I apologise if wincing is something you so, but if I see a m/m hero do it, all I hear is “D’OH!!!”
One more, before I lose every person in the room. Snuggle. Please. Just. Don’t.
Anyone have any others?
Ah, a woman after my own heart! I too don’t like ‘big girl’s blouses’ who wail, cry and cling furiously onto their alpha counterpart. It makes me wonder how alpha-man can stand it.
I once did a post on my hatred of ‘pouting’ which digressed into giggling in the comments section. As I recall neither were popular.
Yes, you’ve put your finger on it, some m/m is pulling away from its yaoi cousins, and some of us want more than the teary eyed reluctant virgin and the stern suitwearing Alpha. Not that i don’t enjoy a dip into trad yaoi from time to time, but i don’t want to read a story about oil riggers who pout and wince.
Thanks Jenre, and also thank you for your post on Transgressions recently, much appreciated.
I quite like a good yaoi story as long as I know that’s what it is. That way I know that one of the characters is going to be a bit drippy.
You know, I’m sure there was an awful lot of snuggling going on in Transgressions, but I don’t think anyone actually ever said the word :).
oh yes, definitely a lot of that going on, but it’s just somehow the phrase “he snuggled closer to him” that makes me want to spit teeth.
🙂
I’m surprised you have anything left to read! 😉
But I agree, I hate hate HATE the crying, simpering girly boys that creep in the genre. That’s yaoi. And fair enough if that’s your thing, just warn me before I read your book.
And… the room empties.
Well, I tend to read a book without relying on reviews and such, so I’m often in a book before i realise that my lumberjacks are fainting.
🙂 And yes, giggling when drunk is very much allowed – same as being ill and fainty. Nod nod.
Thanks for dropping by, Sean!
Guys do tend to giggle when they’re drunk, though.
Erastes
You do have some expressions I have never heard of e.g. “big girl’s blouse” must be a British thing because Jenre understood it.:) But I get your meanig and Ambrose definitely fits the description.*g*
You know where I stand on “girly” men as Arnold S would call them. I can’t abide giggling, crying, pouty, whiny men who snuggle and wince. I think those *heroes* (and I use the term loosely) are chicks with dicks, sorry! When I want to read a book with a heroine I’ll read het, and even there the characterizations of the women are stronger men than some of the guys in M/M books. Where do the authors get these people? Do most of them just convert their het books and use masculine sounding names?
I also don’t like angst ridden books – they make me want to break out in hives. But that’s just me and I know I’m in the minority because most female readers of M/M seem to love angst. I don’t know why – I thought we had enough in the world and the readers keep saying they read to escape RL.
Now I’ve finished ranting.:)
Thanks, Wave – It all turned out a bit more ranty than i meant it to – hope no one was offended and i’m happy you let me loose from time to time!
🙂
HAHAHA What a great start to my first morning back in the salt mines. I’ve never heard of “big girl’s blouses”, is that a British thing? We just call them wimps in Canada. 🙂
I don’t mind some crying, as long as its in private. DON’T burst out in tears in a restaurant, even if you’re a girl that doesn’t do it for me. Leaking at a sad movie is okay. Actually my ex liked to talk about feelings. Arrggghh! Not my thing. Oh wait, he’s my ex. 😛
And boys do giggle when they drink and I don’t mind giggling. As long as the guy is not 6’5″ and 250 lbs. Then giggling doesn’t fit. Or cuddling, I can live with those. Okay, so I’d like to live with those, lets be honest. Volunteers anyone? I’ll let you get drunk and cuddle. Wincing and sighing in appropriate context is okay. Sometimes a giant heaved sigh is the only way to go, even if you’re a manly man, and seriously, if you see me walk into a light post and fall down a wince would be nice (rather than standing there busting a gut laughing – I’m just saying).
Hmm. Seems I like “big girl’s blouses”. As long as its not floaty and floral and covered with ruffles. I have some pride.
Hi Tam!
Yes, it’s probably an English expression – and quite derogatory too, I doubt it goes back as far as the Romantic Poets but they would have been BGBS. 😀
I think it’s ok to like certain types in romance – it’s all supposed to be a fantasy after all, and we might have a bloke at home who cries at the drop of the hat, snuggles and giggles, and we may love him dearly, but we secretly read about the alphas…
It’s the same as him having girly mags, I suppose.
Off topic, is there anyway to insert lines between paragraphs? I tried “control enter” and it doesn’t work. Rambly me tends to end up with what appears to be one freaky run on paragraph but its not really. I have a few grammatical skills.
Heh, my brother used to be a champion fainter – would drop like he’d been shot – and he’s in the army now. But I’d agree, unless the guy is ill, or someone he thought was dead walks in (hey Watson faints when Holmes shows up again a couple of years after he supposedly died and Watson’s no simpering sissy. :D) then he should manage not to swoon! Didn’t Victorian ladies supposedly faint so much due to their absurdly tight corsets? The men shouldn’t generally have that problem.
Ooh, I might have people do a bit too much wincing. I’ll watch out for that and reserve it for moments they stub their toe or have a bad toothache or something. 😉
Hello Junkfoodmonkey, thank you for stopping by here!
Yes some of the feminine fainting was definitely caused by corsets and clothes – e.g. Elizabeth Swan in Potc etc – and some ladies were “so nicely brought up” that they tended to find things shocking enough to faint over – but I tend to equate too much of that in the same way as Agnes Nitt does in Masquerade when whatever her name is faints at the slightest provocation. What some writers have done is just to change the names when it comes to their heroes reactions, and not taken into account that a young man wouldn’t be corsetted within an inch of his life, and having been to school and seen a bit of life, wouldn’t pass out if someone made an improper suggestion!!!
🙂
“Inwardly wincing” is ok – but actually watching real people, there’s not a whole lot of it.
Wave, the difference between books and RL is that in books things come alright. Something that won´t happen in RL sadly enough.
Personally some angst is ok but as always too much is not good.
Erastes what´s wrong with snuggling??
There’s nothing wrong with snuggling as an action, but when it’s from a male point of view, I just can’t handle the hero thinking “I snuggled up to him” or “he snuggled me.”
It’s just…. too feminine a concept. Can’t help it, it’s just a buzzword that I really don’t like!
Great post.
I too hate the giggling, crying girly men in some m/m stories. I prefer a man who laughs, sheds a tear when necessary without crying an ocean and doesn’t go around being a whiny pouting baby.
Hi Lily, glad to see its not just me – thanks for commenting!
Oh, I love angst. Good angst isn’t all that easy to pull off, though. There’s girly, wimpy, whiny angst and that’s just plain bad. Like girly, wimpy, whiny men. Ick.
I’m with Ingrid on the angst in books. Unlike in real life, most of those issues work themselves out on the page and characters tend to be okay in the end.
Hi NL,
Oh I love me a lot of angst too, but as you say, there are ways to do it without pouting, wincing and weeping. Harry Dresden does it well, I think
Is it just me, or are these comments appearing all over the shop?
I just don’t like the tricksy yaoi titles that are sneaking in at the moment. Like you, I tend to buy more often without reading reviews and seem to be getting burned more often than not with yaoi stories that sell themselves otherwise.
And I know I’m guilty of giggling, wincing and sighing at times. But if you ask Kris, she’ll probably say it’s because I’m meant to be a twink.
Well, Wave knows what I’m gonna say *g* I don’t like the term “chicks with dicks”, and I don’t like putting even fictional people in boxes. We’re all individuals. For every “Real Men Don’t…” I hear, I can go knock on a door someplace and introduce you to a Real Man who, in fact, does. And thank FSM my hubby snuggles because I would kick his ass out if he didn’t! I need my snuggling, dammit! LOL. That said, I don’t really enjoy reading about any character, male or female, who constantly wails and moans and cries and wrings their hands. In fact heroines who do that bug the living shit out of me even more than heroes who do. Maybe that’s because real people who act that way make me want to smack them? IDK…
Yes, Ally – I think that’s probably why I feel like that too – girly girls brings out the “i want to punch you in the nose” side of me, so men make it worse!
I can accept a lot from a hero in a m/m, as long as his behavior fits his character – i.e., as long as the author has given me a good reason to accept it. I don’t mind the occasional hero who is more in touch with his feminine side, or rather a better way to describe it is one who is more open with his emotions. I find some of them quite cute and adorable. One of my fav heroes is Lainey from With Love. He was just so…cute and sexy and sweet. He even giggles. *g* But he was still a man, and not a hero masquerading as a heroine.
That being said, I do have an annoyance threshold. Too much simpering, eye-fluttering, fainting behavior is just…annoying. If the guy reads too much like a woman, then it’s not a book I’d enjoy.
Absolutely, Ava, you’ve nailed it, as long as the author gives you a reason to accept it. But there are a blanket load of these snuggling, giggling men – and it’s not the actions I dislike – it’s the WORDS. I don’t disagree that men “snuggle” but they don’t say “let’s have a nice snuggle” – so I find it jarring to have them think that in the pov.
I like my snuggling, cuddling guys. They can’t eat and fuck and shop ALL the time. Every so often, they have to pop in a DVD and snuggle on the couch as they watch half-naked men with muscles on their muscles maraud through endless extras.
Giggling…hmm, I have a few that do.
Sighing. You’ve never been around my husband. He sighs in frustration, boredom, pleasure and desire. So I figured it was normal behavior.
“There are all kinds of men who behave in all kinds of ways.”
While I hate stereotypically female behavior on anyone, male of female, I won’t say every action more commonly associated with women has no place in an m/m.
I don’t deny that men sigh, Angelia – in the way you’ve said, but they don’t sit around sighing for love anymore, at least not oil riggers and lumberjacks and cops. Everyone sighs for those other reasons, of course! It’s the word snuggle that i object to – NOT the concept. Men don’t say (in general) “lets have a snuggle” so for them to think it jars me. it’s a word that women use.
(Said so well Ally).
An occasional giggle, wince, crying or faint is fine as long as it’s in character and fits the situation. I have little or no interest in reading about an idiotic sobbing dishrag regardless of who the characters are. One of my favorite het authors wrote a short story where the heroine continuously bounced and giggled. I wanted to reach though the pages and give her a smack upside the back of her head! I have to be able to believe that someone would actually behave this way and frankly some of these people would get stared at in public regardless of where they are or who they are. I know that if someone started crying and fainting in public and I couldn’t figure out why, I would probably stare at them and wonder if they were recently released from a mental ward after suffering a nervous breakdown. As for the giggles and bounciness, who would find that sexy? Is the big bad alpha male (or anyone else) really going to find this obviously less than even marginally capable person attractive in the long haul? After the 5-6th time bailing your idiot partner of some situation then listening to them cry, faint and later giggle, I would think that they might be a little tired of it. Who has that kind of energy to bounce everywhere and giggle all of the time? Don’t you walk anywhere or just laugh? I think this has less to do with male or female behavior and more to do with what is and is not plausible or if it’s annoying no matter who is doing it.
My husband cries (a lot) and we cuddle and he refers to it as cuddling, but maybe a different personality would have a different internal dialog about what they are doing at the time. Just a thought.
My personal pet peeves not already vented about, are sneaking in a D/S or other genre relationship (like yaoi) without warning, having a strong character suddenly being so submissive they should have a “welcome” tattoo, and product placements in a book – I so did not buy this book to read the commercial! I really hate that as much as the simpering fool character. (sorry about the rant…)
Thanks Amie – it was a brilliant rant and i have nothing to add. And yes, “cuddle” i don’t deny men say “lets cuddle” but i doubt many of them say “lets snuggle” – not to other men, and certainly not one they’ve just met…
🙂
Amie, this:
“I think this has less to do with male or female behavior and more to do with what is and is not plausible or if it’s annoying no matter who is doing it.”
YES! That’s it in a nutshell.
I have a thing against “winking”. Is it supposed to be manly, to counteract all the snuggling and fainting? It just seems sleazy to me.
Thank goodness i haven’t seen much winking, Rikki… good lord. My boss used to wink at me (she was a woman) when she was being “funny” – it was very disturbing.
“A nod’s as good as a wink…” True, winking is kind of passe right now, but in certain times and places, it would be expected. A gentleman flips a shilling to a hostler and asks that his horse gets a stall out of the draft and a bait of oats, the man gives the gent a wink (his hands being full with the horse) and assures him that he will. A saloon girl sees the deputy she’s sweet on walk through the batwing doors and winks to let him know she’ll be waiting out by the persimmon tree…
Gestures go in and out of style, but a bit of nonverbal communication as useful as a wink will probably cycle back in again eventually.
Slightly jetlagged here, but i get what you mean and this is something I mentioned to Wave a while back. It’s literary convention. One does it and the others follow (think Da Vinci Code and the many similar books that followed).
It goes for certain characteristics too. Authors even do it subconsciously. But sometimes when a book with a character with certain characteristics sells… many similar.
Does not always mean I like it. Sometimes I wonder if authors op m/m stories shape their heroes into what they want them to be (the perfect man) or if I’m entirely wrong and it is something else.
Good point, Larissa, something similar happens in fanfic, where a concept is copied so often by so many authors (e.g. Lucius Malfoy beats his son) that it become “fanon” – and this is the same here (ditto for the one, two, three finger routine)(on an aside, one gay friend said to me, on learning of this literary convention “good grief, with some bottoms I know, that’s a sure way of losing one’s arm to the elbow.”)/tmi.
And yes, I suppose author are creating their perfect men, one with a load of feminine characteristics, but I have to say, I like my heroes flawed. Very flawed.
See English Lit is good for something 😉 It was actuallly on the three fingers routine that I made that same comment on.
Hihi everybody is flawed. You might like the Crossroads books by Keta Diablo, though the books themselves are also flawed
@Rikki, besides, who winks anymore? That’s my grandfather’s generation. My father’s never picked it up, so we never got it. The wink was starting to look dated in 1977.
Ohferdachrissakes, did I wander onto Kris’s blog without realizing it?
Gay men are men, first and foremost, as well as (gasp!) PEOPLE. They giggle, guffaw, snuggle, cuddle, wince, grimace, flinch, recoil, strut, crow, whisper sweet nothings, whine, pontificate, wheedle, demand, cry, sniffle, snortle, piss their names in the snow, belch up garlic, pee their pants, binge, purge, doubt themselves, doubt others, doubt the world, show a stiff upper lip, and crumble under pressure.
As someone said above, this should be more about offensive behavior in general than about what men “should” or “shouldn’t” do, as if they were members of an alien species with limited behavioral and psycho-emotional norms.
I, for one, don’t like fawning, pouting, posturing, bullying, or screaming. But people do fawn, pout, posture, bully, and scream. So as long as the storyline warrants it and the characters are well drawn, I really don’t give an armadillo’s bunghole if two guys enjoy feeding each other while singing “God Save the Queen!”
“I really don’t give an armadillo’s bunghole”
Hmmm, can I work that into my job interview tomorrow? 😀 You do have a way with words KZ, must be why you’re an author.
As I said, very clearly, this was a purely subjective thought, and I was amazed anyone agreed with me, considering how many weeping snuggling men I read on a weekly basis, let alone how many did. It’s not just the CONCEPTS I object to, KZ. Of COURSE men cuddle and weep and laugh. but the word choice – Men (in general) say “oh i really want to snuggle” so to think that in their POV is jarring. And yes, men do giggle, but not in the way that i’ve been reading, not just sitting down at lunch having a talk. Perhaps it’s lazy writing – and the author can’t be arsed to find another word to express a male laugh, or hasn’t actually sat down and listened to what kind of laughs that men do – perhaps that’s it, not enough author observation.
But you’ve summed it up – “as long as the storyline warrants it” – which is exactly what I was saying.
I do understand, Erastes. I was just on a tear yesterday about something unrelated. However, it does seem sometimes there’s little left to write that readers will find acceptable!
Tam, just credit the source. I’ll let the royalty go…this time. 😉
I think the one word I really hate is ‘cum’, because it looks like it’s the victim of trendy spelling. What’s wrong with ‘come’, for crying out loud?
Otherwise I don’t mind a character who’s a big girl’s blouse as long as he has some other qualities to endear him to me. I think many of the overly weepy, “feminised” (I don’t like using that word because women aren’t like that either) men are bad characters just because they’re unrealistic human beings.
As far as ‘cum’, I believe that falls under house style rules for a pub. My damn internet is down at home right now so I can’t check my mss to verify which pub prefers which spelling, but before I send a submission to an editor, I check the spelling of that word in previous edits to make sure I spell it correctly per the pub’s house style guidelines. …and yeah, ‘cum’ isn’t all that historically accurate for a regency, but sometimes the alternatives just don’t read quite right in a sentence.
“Cum” is one of those deal-breakers for me, like whiskey, and ass. I’ve written for the more porny side of the genre, MEN magazine, STARpress, Alyson’s anthos, and none of them have insisted on cum. *makes a face* From a historical perspective, (i’d use another word anyway) it really reminds me of the round song “Sumer Is Icumen In” which is wrong on so many levels.
Only you would put a fainting goat in a blog on gay romance. I saw that picture and found myself wishing that Stephen Maturin had, just once in his life, been able to observe one of the creatures… with the reader handy to see his reaction.
My two pet peeves are “smirk” and “pout,” with “sulk” a close third. What kind of self-satisfied jackass actually smirks? Never mind the male/female thing, if I’m supposed to want a happy ending for the h/h, I want to read about characters who are grownups. I don’t like pouting in a four-year-old–it’s an affectation even in a child who’s testing out what behavior will let him get his own way–but in a very young child it’s understandable. For someone over the age of ten? Feh. Not a candidate for “hero” in my book. (I do have a character sulking and pouting in Tangled Web–but only once each, and he’s supposed to be an immature jerk.) If these are stylistic conventions from yaoi… well, I never was attracted to that genre because the characters all seem to look like they’re twelve or thirteen, and I have no more interest in that than in that “Twilight” series. Hormone shifts are hell, but I think there’s a good consequence of adolescence being so emotionally difficult–it’s an incentive to grow the hell up.
Sighing… guilty as charged, but my guys are more likely to sigh after trying to figure something out, being frustrated, and having to put the issue aside for a moment. The sigh is a sign of frustration, more likely to occur when the guy’s by himself, not a bit of drahma to get attention.
Giggling, snuggling, even fainting (an homage to Dr Watson I snuck into Winds of Change)… I think I’ve done a lot of these. But–as so many people have said, it’s context. If a guy giggles uncharacteristically in a stressful situation, it’s not the same as somebody who’s one thread short of freefall.
I think what it comes down to is using emotional gestures sparingly, and with reason, instead of having someone Bouncing! Around! to show what a Perky! Little! Thing! s/he Is! Not that some guys might not do it, but there’d better be a really good reason.
The edit function is goofy–the screen keeps hopping–and paragraph breaks aren’t working right.
Heh – yes, Lee, those are all ones I could have added! I’m particularly glad I’ve not read much het romance in the last few years as “bouncing” would certainly make me start tearing pages out. That being said, I do know people who bounce, but I have the same murderous instinct with them in real life as I do with them in fiction.
Hahaha, you Erastes, you make me so nervous! Now I have a mental checklist…do I have sighing, fainting, crying, cuddling…Let’s see, over on CoffeeTime Romance (the Scandalous Smuggler, I wish a few more folks would join in)….William faints but don’t you think seeing his father’s severed head was enough of an excuse? And my current WIP, the hero gets a little teary when he gets a long overdue apology from his aunt. Does that count?
I guess my take would be that anything is possible in extreme moderation. It is when a character is regularly crying, sighing, fainting or whatever that it gets tiresome. I believe that is called a cliche?
L
PS, that previous message was from me, Leslie. I thought I logged in to show my name. Oops!
hehe I don’t do the ‘mental checklist’ thing anymore.
You can find a dozen posts a day on the internet from subjective view points about what this or that reader/reviewer likes and doesn’t like, and if you took every one to heart, you’d soon be left with hardly any words or actions that you can safely use.
Just write what you write. Guaranteed it will find an audience who loves it anyway. 🙂
I don’t think you need to worry – by the sound of it, Lazyfarm, your characters seem to have the right motivations for their actions – anyone would faint for something like that!
I had a go, but it looks like you have a plan so I’ve bowed out.
All of my characters are inclined to sigh in frustration and exasperation. But I loathe the whiny, pouty, giggling, swooning creatures that are attempting to pass themselves off as male. If I wanted to read about helpless damsels, I’d read about helpless damsels!
Absolutely, Tracey – those are quite valid reasons to sigh, too! Thanks for commenting!
Personally, I find any and all of these traits perfectly fine in fiction. More so in your classic “Breeches Ripper” as Elisa Rolle calls them. I even wrote one.
This post explains a lot, though. *g*
I adore your fainting goat.
I have to confess that I’ve had numerous characters that transgressed all of these, Erastes. Adrien English has swooned on occasion (though he would not thank me for saying so) and tough guy Taylor MacAllister from Dangerous Ground was a giggling and sweet-tempered drunk. Not an alcoholic, I hasten to add — though I’ve written one of those too — and he did cry quite a bit (granted, given the weekend he was having, I think there was provocation).
I’ve done many posts like this one, but the longer I stay in m/m fiction, the more convinced I am that a really good writer can pretty much do anything to a character — and not only will I take it, I’ll end up liking it. Whether I want to or not. It all gets down to the skill of the writer. Maybe because a truly good writer doesn’t have characters roll out of bed in the morning without establishing sufficient motivation.
Weirdly enough, I received an email last night from a male reader/writer who wrote me as he was reading through Man Oh Man:
“The comments that some editors made that they are tired of stories where one of the partners may as well be a female with male genetalia (making sure I don’t get caught by a spam filter) frankly made me wince. Thus far (perhaps it’s a limitation that I should work to overcome), I tend to write first-person stories based on my own experiences as a much less-than stereotypically masculine male. I know there are many who would consider me to be a female with male genetalia, so maybe it’s just a matter of taste and I should get over it. However, there is a genuine life experience for those of us who are neither drag queens nor “straight acting” gym-pumped guys in t-shirts and jeans or suits, etc. “Boys” like me have stories to tell, too. We challenge some gender stereotypes, fall neatly into others and it drives many berserk, I guess.”
And of course this is absolutely true — the most troubling thing for me is that he might be reading that book thinking I’m advocating writing stereotypical behaviors or that I believe that realistic male characters only behave in any one certain, standard issue way. This is certainly not true of my own writing, and not something I would advocate for others.
Oh. One other thing. (I’m in a chatty mood this morning). I was totally in agreement on the pouting and giggling thing for YEARS, but then I was watching The Professionals one night and it occurred to me that those 70s tough guys do absolutely, unequivically, pout and giggle.
And…damn it all, it’s sort of cute.
They only faint when they get shot, however.
I’m guilty of using most of those *blushes*. Wincing, when in pain, pouting, deliberately to tease, sighing and giggling are things I get from my husband, uber-hetero male that he is, all the time. I didn’t realise they were a no-no in fiction. Tears are difficult. I don’t like unnecessarily weepy heroes and if mine cry it’s usually painful in the extreme – men aren’t good at crying having been trained out of it early. But even Rhett Butler cried when that annoying little Bonnie died.
Fainting – not really. Involuntary unconciousness during field surgery for the removal of an arrow, yes, I’m not sure if that counts.
Snuggling and cuddling – ah hell – I’ll try to find synonyms and I’ll use them, in context.
A previous poster said that if one tries to please everyone, one will never write another word and I think that’s probably very true.
I recall a fanfic I wrote where a character lost consciousness due to bad flu (on top of a massive New Year’s Day hangover) and was most insulted when his friend said he “fainted”. Friend corrected this to “you passed out in an entirely manly fashion.”
I get the idea that writers are avoiding the dreaded ‘female character who just happens to have a penis’ and instead writing ‘straight men who just happen to like doing other guys.’
The comments from Josh’s reader bring up some interesting points, but I wonder if there’s an irreconcilable conflict here. A genre which deals in fantasy versions of gay relationships isn’t likely to provide characters he can identify with. ““Boys” like me have stories to tell, too.” But M/M probably isn’t the forum for his stories.
I will just say up front: I love my gay boys. I’ve been told I can’t be considered a fag hag because that only applies to straight women (whatever, bite me), but I do seem to have a talent for mothering poor little lost gay boys who wander by. And I call them “boys” on purpose, to refer to the ones who giggle, simper, flutter their eyelashes at me, pout because I won’t give them makeup tips (I don’t wear the stuff!), and have, at times, behaved so theatrically that I told them to join the drama club if they wanted somewhere to get that out. That said, they’ve also got this inner strength that usually comes from being put down and pooh-poohed by the parts of the GLBT community who are ashamed of their flamboyance and don’t want to be connected with them. So, if they’re written, I find them to be very interesting characters to read about, and at times I get very frustrated that there aren’t many stories that include well developed fairy boys. Variety is the spice of life. 🙂 Lynn Lorenz’s “Edward, Unconditionally” is on my shelf of books to keep forever and ever because Edward is SUCH a gay boy, and part of the book is how he deals with being perceived as “less than” because of his flamboyance. SO MUCH LOVE.
That said, lazy character development pisses me off on a hundred different levels. Whether the character is on steroids or estrogen shots, nothing is an excuse for lazy stereotyping. I mean, hell, I was in a fandom one time with a manly man character who only “chuckled” at everything and it got to the point that a lot of people swore they’d never read another fic with him if it included the word “chuckle.” So, one person’s giggle is another person’s snort; the only real problem is not being original and genuine in one’s writing, I think.
*steps down off soapbox*
Hi all, I’m about to rant again. Sorry. (You’ve been warned!)
I think a lot of people are missing the point. It’s not that there can’t be all sorts of different personalities in fiction or in romance, there has to be simply because there are all sorts of people in the world! The most direct answer that I can think of and what I think that Erastes (as well as pretty much everyone else) was saying is that who wants to read a book where the characters are unlikable and not realistic?
I guess I can’t be a fag hag either because I’m bi. I was on the receiving end of the exclusion of the GLBT community for not being gay enough, and spent quite a bit of quality time with the other shunned members. I noticed that the twinks didn’t necessarily bounce and giggle though it may have happened a time or two, the drag folks were… folks, and the other bi folks were not all in a ménage or trying to cheat on their partner to be able to have both genders in their beds. My husband who looks like a biker cries and cuddles (we already covered that, I know) I rarely wear makeup but I’m seriously *not* by *any* definition butch. A big bad Alpha may love being the bottom, a twink may be exclusively the top or vice versa, and so may a lot of other people. I think that m/m is a GREAT place to show ALL of these people. I know that I would love to read about them.
The fact of the matter is that sloppy half a**ed writing is still sloppy half a**ed writing. Have a 3 dimensional character with realistic motivations and the behavior that follows! If you find yourself wanting to reach through the computer and knock someone upside the head or if you would want nothing to do with them in reality, why do you think I would want to spend my time *or* my money reading about them?
Absolutely – it’s not saying that “men don’t do these things” but it’s whether it WORKS in context. I’m much more likely to believe your men giggling if they are in a hugely stressful situation or if they are drunk as skunks.
For example – I just watched an episode of Stargate Atlantis. John (the soldier type) and Rodney (the geeky scientist)(for those of you who haven’t seen the show) are sharing a beer sitting on the dock. Rodney has a brain disease and is losing his mind and they’ve just had a very masculine discussion about how and why John doesn’t want to say goodbye yet. It’s well written with lots of pauses and interruptions. No feelings being expressed expressly, but obviously shown.
Then the punchline of the scene, Rodney says “OK, Brian.” John double takes and both men collapse into hopeless giggling.
THAT works.