When ‘Clean’ Has a Negative Connotation

81 comments

• 

  Whenever I hear it being used in a fic, it just makes me think of Tangina at the end of Poltergeist when she announces “This house is clean.” AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

  I wonder if it’s something that carried over from fan fic?

• 

  Hmmmm… I dunno. I’ve been married so long that I’ve never had to have that conversation with a guy because there wasn’t reliable testing way back then. Well, for HIV, anyway. There WAS testing for other social diseases, I believe, not that I worried any harder about those than any other college-age kids, really. Soo, all that’s just to say I’m not really sure where “clean” came from. Probably other straight people talking about being generally disease-free, not specifically HIV-free.

  *

  Speaking of which, let me ask a question. Do you refer to being free of other communicable diseases in another, separate way? I’m assuming gay men do worry about other contagious bugs as well; Hepatitis can be fatal, after all. So can syphillis, for that matter, if you’re an idiot and don’t treat it. Are those things included in the “negative” term? That’s probably a stupid question but now that it’s been brought up I want to know. I’ve never even considered that gay men might use different terms for things than I’ve otherwise heard and I want to get this right! Argh.

  *

  Sean: wherever this came from, it’s not fanfic. The vast majority of fanfic completely ignores the existence of diseases. Being sick is not romantic! **rolls eyes**
  (I actually like reading some fanfic, but let’s face it, most of it is cavity-inducing crap)

  • 

    Hi Ally,

    I thought I’d take a stab at your question. Basically, I think there are no hard and fast rules. In some situations, guys just don’t ask or tell (it’s not wise, but the heat of the moment can generate denial as well as passion). Otherwise, I think the term I mentioned above, DDF, which means “drug and disease free” is one I have seen bandied about a lot, especially online. It’s a phrase I take with a grain of salt, though. How can anyone really know, if they’re sexually active, if they are truly disease free? Sometimes diseases can be asymptomatic, or brewing in one’s system, so the responsible message here is, if you’re gettin’ around a lot, to treat all potential partners as infected and protect yourself accordingly. How would you deal with this in fiction? Just like in real life, it would depend on your characters and where they come from in terms of honesty and compassion.

    • 

      Well this is one thing that’s certainly universal: straight people can be just as stoopid in the heat of passion 🙂
      Yeah, I guess it depends on the characters as to whether or not they would be smart enough to talk about their disease status, whether they would talk about just HIV or the whole enchilada, whether they would use protection, etc. I wonder if guys ever use the term “DDF” when they talk in person?

• 

  Yeah, “clean” is a druggy term.
  Like the phrase “dirty” needle.

  “Negative or Positive” is usually the HIV terms.

• 

  I just used this phrase myself. *facepalm* Fortuately, I can edit it in the galley proof.
  *
  I wonder if the phrasing has been extrapolated from drug testing, where the term “clean” is used to connote that the person being tested shows no sign of drug use? I hear it used in discussions of steroid use, for example — a “clean” athlete is one who doesn’t test positive for steroids.
  *
  Thanks for raising my awareness, Wave!

  • 

    Janey

    “Thanks for raising my awareness, Wave!”

    You’re welcome. You know how much I loved your first book and I would have hated to say anything in my review of the new one about ANYTHING that was off (you know what I mean.)*g*

    • 

      I do indeed know what you mean, Wave! 😉 You may find other quibbles, but with any luck it won’t be this…or THAT.

      Oh, and if you’re still accepting anecdotal evidence, the cock I’m most intimately familiar with definitely twitches.:)

• 

  Hmm….I wonder if this is some sort of offshoot from the old phrase about getting “a clean bill of health from the doctor.”

• 

  That’s a weird one, since if I heard someone saying they were “clean” my first thought would be that they meant they’d quit drinking or taking drugs. That’s definitely the association I’d make. Why use “clean” when there’s already widely used terms: positive and negative, and whatever shortened versions of them people might use? Just seems likely to cause confusion to me.

• 

  The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder if it’s at least partly generational. Like I said, me = married nearly 24 years, monogamous for a year before that. Positive and negative weren’t even terms applied to sex partners when I was dating, and yeah, “clean” is more a medical-based term so maybe those of us in the medical field tend to pick up on that subconsiously? In any case, I do plan on fixing that in my next not-set-in-the-far-future book O_O
  (but I still need my previous question answered first!! because if my guys worry about ANY diseases, they tend to worry about them all, not just HIV…)

  • 

    Ally
    Stuart works during the day so I doubt he will be responding before the evening, but I’ll see if Rick Reed is available and if he is, maybe he will comment, since I consulted with him on this post. If not perhaps some of my other gay “regulars” will read this post and answer your question.

  • 

    Morning all,

    Thanks for your weekly help with the questions I have as I’m learning about the genre of M/M fiction.

    *

    Coincidentally, I just read “Fortune’s Return” by Jamie Craig day before yesterday (Stu rating: TWO stars) and I came upon this passage:

    *

    “Can’t do all the things,” he [Teo] said gruffly. “Much as I might hate it. I don’t have any
    condoms.”
    Ryan’s first instinct was to calculate the distance to the closest, open drugstore. If he
    went with that option, they wouldn’t fuck until the next night. “I…uh…I’ve only had one
    partner in the past eight years, to bring my grand total up to three. I’m clean. What about
    you?”
    “Two in twelve years. Carmen, four years ago, then Kirk, five years before that.”
    Teo reached across the final inches that separated them and grasped Ryan’s hip, hauling
    him almost roughly against his body. “That long enough for me to fuck you raw?”
    It took a few moments for the question to sink in. Ryan was too distracted by the
    solid wall of flesh now pressed to him. The functioning part of his brain calculated the
    risk involved—an infinitesimal risk. One he was comfortable with. “That’s long enough.
    We’re good to go.”

    *

    Jamie Craig’s passage is, for me, the epitome of everything that’s wrong with M/M fiction’s approach to questions of HIV, safer sex, and condom use.

    *

    Ally, “negative” and “positive” only refer to HIV.

    -Stuart

    • 

      Hi Stuart! Thanks for taking time off while you’re at work to answer my questions, I really appreciate it! I’m off work today because I have to go in this weekend. Blech >_<

      *

      Okay, so, I have another question, whenever you're home or have time. Can you clarify for me what exactly it is that bothers you about the passage from Jamie Craig's book? Is it just the use of the word "clean"? Or is it the fact that these guys are being irresponsible by fucking without protection? Is it because they're taking each other at their word without testing? Basically, is it just because they're being dumb and irresponsible, is it the word "clean", or is it something else? Sorry to be a pest but I just want to make sure I'm understanding you.

    • 

      Okay, I tried to do this once and it vanished into the ether, so please pardon if this shows up twice…

      *

      Stuart, thanks for taking time out at work to answer my questions, much appreciated! Now I have one more, whenever you get home or have time. Could you clarify for me what exactly it was that bothered you about the passage from Jamie Craig’s book? Was it just the use of the word “clean”, or was it the fact that the guys are being dumb and irresponsible? Or was it something else entirely? Sorry to be a pest, I just want to make sure I’m understanding you.

      • 

        Hi Ally,

        I actually don’t work on Thursdays. I’m a psychotherapist and have two very long days on Tuesday and Wednesday. I don’t work Thursdays and I re-charge.

        *

        Why do I hate that passage? For many reasons, some you have named. First, the choice to have unprotected sex makes no sense in terms of how the authors have described Teo. He is a single parent, disowned by his family, who dedicates his life to the nurture and proper upbringing of his son, Antonio. Teo is a man who does not want casual sex, only sex in the context of a relationship. Teo is described as quiet, reflective, and deeply responsible; his introduction of the problem of having no condoms reflects these qualities. Teo knows that Ryan’s ex-lover, John, is an asshole, who very recently dumped Ryan for not having the right kind of job. The author’s having positioned the protagonists this way, why would Teo stake his life and ability to care for Antonio on John’s faithfulness to Ryan? For all Teo knows, Ryan’s body is full of the unknown and unwelcome microbes that an unfaithful John passed on to him. (Ryan knows Carmen died of cancer. Was it ovarian cancer? Will Teo give him HPV and triple his risk of dying of Anal Cancer??) Where is the character motivation for Teo to take that risk to himself and his ability to care for his son? He only takes that risk because the author wants to have a bareback sex scene. Teo and Ryan become suddenly stupid and irresponsible, not willing to have incredibly hot safer sex and wait ONE NIGHT and go to the pharmacy tomorrow. Since they both want love, wouldn’t mutual protection and concern for one another’s safety be a sign of that burgeoning and authentic love? I can’t remember if it’s Tory Temple or Chris Owen, but there’s a novel with firemen where they joyfully bring home their negative test results and tumble into bed to fuck without condoms. They waited. That’s love. That’s the integration of the narrative of HIV into the protagonists’ unfolding relationship. Instead, Craig prioritizes the type of sex scene he wants over the nature of the characters and situations he’s created and proceeds to have two smart, reflective protagonists act dumb and irresponsible. I think an M/M author, if they are going to produce a good book, has to have the type of sex scene that makes sense for the type of characters he/she creates.

        *

        Also, Craig continues the myth of “Hey, we’re not sluts, let’s fuck bareback.” It’s not the number of partners you’ve had, it’s the type of sex you’ve had. Ryan’s 8 years of barebacking with his partner and not knowing his sero-status would be far more risky than if, for example, Teo had mutually masturbated with 2,000 men. I don’t like the idea that there’s some intrinsic moral/medical virtue to having fewer partners. I’ve seen the “I’ve only slept with a few guys, so I’m ‘clean’,” used in a number of other books. I think it’s a sex-negative motif in a genre that I thought was very sex-positive.

        *

        There, Ally, some of my thoughts. What do you think?

        -Stuart

        -Stuart

        • 

          I think your thoughts are very solid and I’m thinking I’d think the same thing if I read that book. I don’t have too many absolute rules when it comes to fiction, but one I DO have is that the characters must always, ALWAYS, remain true to how they are portrayed. If they start acting out of character, that’s a deal-breaker for me. That goes for movies, TV, and every other form of fiction as well. Which probably explains why I don’t watch much TV <_<

          *

          That's not to say characters can't act like irresponsible jerks. They can. Sometimes that might even be best for the story. After all, human beings DO act that way, don't we? Yeah, all the damn time. BUT. It sounds as if the Teo character was set up to be exactly the opposite of irresponsible, and him not being willing to wait one freakin' night was totally out of character. I think that would've thrown me right out of the story, which always irritates me.

          *

          Thanks for clearing that up for me!! It makes perfect sense 🙂

• 

  Hmm, now that you mention it, I’ve only ever come across ‘clean’ in m/m books. I assumed by ‘clean’ the authors were implying free of all STD’s, not just HIV. I could certainly see how the term would be offensive, though.

  So, like Ally, I’ve been married for lots of years, and this hasn’t come up lately. What term should authors be using instead when their leading men want to say they have no STD’s? Should they say, “I’m disease free,” which is what Rick said is used online?

  • 

    Yeah, you could say that. Or you could be creative (again, just like in life) and think about how your character would say it. There doesn’t really have to be a shortcut, does there? In my personal experience, I have found that gay men really don’t ask/tell much about other STDs other than HIV, probably because of what I said above: either it’s really obvious that you have one (“What’s that big sore on your dick, dude?”) or you have one and don’t know it (asymptomatic) and you can’t really say. If you’re going to sleep around, you also assume a certain amount of risk and I think most guys know this. But, in regards to writing, my advice is get inside a character’s head and think about how he would talk about this situation.

    • 

      ”What’s that big sore on your dick, dude?”
      LOLOL! Okay, I’m SO stealing that *g*

      *

      So you reckon most gay men don’t really think ahead of time about testing for other diseases, just to make sure they don’t have any? That honestly never even occured to me. Maybe it’s a nurse thing, thinking everybody in the whole world ought to just KNOW to do that, LOL. I need to turn off the nurse brain when I write!
      In that case I suppose “negative” (or “positive”, depending) would be appropriate. But yeah, getting in your characters’ heads is always excellent advice 😀

    • 

      And the proper response to “What’s that big sore on your dick, dude?” is, “That ain’t a sore, it’s a chancre.” 😉 Sorry…couldn’t resist. Now I’ll start tracking m/m books for the first time that shows up.
      *
      L

• 

  I’ve never used the term “clean” in my m/m stories in the context which is being discussed, but I’m compelled to chime in anyway.
  ***
  I’ve been monogamous for over a decade. Last time I asked a potential straight male partner to get tested, he came back and, as he handed me the test results, declared himself to be “all clean”. Now it’s been a while since I’ve played the field, but I recall other straight male partners using “clean” to describe their disease-free status. (“I’m clean, baby.” Yes, I heard this one once…. egads…) This could perhaps stem from their habit of describing females as being, literally, “clean” down there, smelling clean, tasting clean, etc. (Yes, bringing up girl cooties at an m/m blog but let’s face it – if the magic hoo-ha is less than Massengil fresh, all factors indicate something is wrong!)
  ***
  I’m going to speculate the misuse of “clean” in regard to disease-free status by some m/m authors stems not from “OH NOEZ, MORE M/M AUTHORS WHO DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT AND ARE ALL COPYING EACH OTHER!!11!!” and simply due to a difference between str8 lingo versus gay lingo. Yes, the misuse should be corrected by authors seeking authentic (and sensitive!) description of the gay male lifestyle, but please, let’s not make assumptions as to the reasons behind that misuse.

• 

  Okay Rick, you just upped my description of the magic hoo-ha with yours about sores on dicks. I love the open atmosphere we all share at Wave’s place! LOL

• 

  Katrina

  “OH NOEZ, MORE M/M AUTHORS WHO DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT AND ARE ALL COPYING EACH OTHER!!11!!”

  This inference that M/M authors are copying each other might annoy you but there are numerous polls on the site to back this up. For example

  **
  Copious amounts of come after sex seems to be a new trend in M/M books. I wonder how the guys don’t pass out after losing so much bodily fluid

  **

  Sex scenes which follow a prescribed formula in many M/M books – cut and paste into any book and add a flimsy plot

  ***

  M/M “romances” which are 3/4 sex and hardly any plot is a current trend. Kassa reviewed yet another one yesterday – I won’t name the book but if you check yesterday’s posts it’s not hard to find. We are overrun with books like these and each author seems to want to one-up the other. We don’t want to read PWP, we want to read romances.

  **

  over the top orgasmic descriptions

  **

  fingers 1, 2, 3 without veering off the “formula”. Sure, lubrication is absolutely necessary, we get that. But the constant mention of 1, then 2, then 3 fingers in each M/M book seems to be a bit excessive. Let’s assume that the readers understand the necessity for this and move on.

  **

  tying off of condoms. I have yet to find gay men who will admit to tying off their condoms after sex. It’s only recently, after I ran a poll on the site several months ago, that most M/M books no longer mention this “practice”
  ****

  I could give you many more examples of identical practices in M/M books or you could read some of the polls.

  ***
  I hope you can understand why I preface my comments in this post by asking whether this is a case of follow the leader. You may not agree. However, reviewers read hundreds of books every year and when we see the same tropes or trends in most of them we wonder where they originate.

  **

  PS When I’m not sure about a term with regard to gay sex I usually consult someone I KNOW is gay for the right answer.:)

• 

  Ally says: “So you reckon most gay men don’t really think ahead of time about testing for other diseases, just to make sure they don’t have any? That honestly never even occured to me. Maybe it’s a nurse thing, thinking everybody in the whole world ought to just KNOW to do that, LOL. I need to turn off the nurse brain when I write!”
  ***
  ***

  But when we M/M girlies *don’t* show our characters addressing disease upfront (as I refrain from doing in my work) then we are accused by some readers of depicting the gay lifestyle irresponsibly and, again, inaccurately. I’ll refer those readers to Rick from now on. 😛

  • 

    I never meant my comments to be construed as saying “most gay men” do or don’t do anything. There are responsible gay men and irresponsible ones, ones who talk about sexual histories and ones who don’t. It’s an individual thing. What I meant was that my personal experience has heard people asking questions pertaining WAY more to HIV status than to questions about other STIs.

    • 

      That makes sense. It’s probably emerged as WAY more of a worry than anything else. I’m serious, the Nurse Brain really does tend to skew what I think people ought to automatically know! I think MOST people, gay or straight, probably worry more about HIV than other diseases since most diseases are more treatable. Except straight teen girls, who worry more about getting pregnant, or at least used to in my day. Oy.

• 

  Wave,

  I wonder where these things come from, too. Just pointing out, from an author perspective, not everyone is copying. At the risk of alienating my peers, many who’ve been supportive and call themselves fans of my work, I don’t read much of their work in return for the very reason of avoiding “copycat” syndrome. Some tropes are due to copying yes, but others are due to this strange cosmic coincidence of creative people tapping into the same subconscious stream. It happens not only in romance, both het and m/m, but in the world of science.
  ***
  And I’ve seen the previous discussions, and actually recall some of the lines you’ve just quoted. Hence why I know this an ongoing topic at your blog, and hence why I addressed it. 🙂

  • 

    Katrina
    *
    Part of the reason I run polls is to avoid tropes like this which may unnecessarily alienate the same people M/M authors are writing about.

    **

    Since women are not gay men, most of their information comes to them second hand. I get emails all the time from gay men questioning why female M/M authors don’t do more research before they make statements in their books which make these same men unable to suspend disbelief.

    **

    I think there is a credibility problem in M/M which would occur in any new sub genre. Authors have to take baby steps but research is the key. When in doubt I ask one of my gay “consultants” like Rick, and a few others for answers.

    **

    I do recall, Katrina, that you were an active participant in many of the polls and I appreciate you taking the time. All I’m trying to do here is get answers to common questions asked by the very men about whom M/M authors write.

• 

  Well to be fair, just because gay men do or don’t do something doesn’t mean that a “trope” is in m/m books because of copycatting. I seem to remember at least a few women having been with partners who tied off condoms? So it seems that that was at least partly a straight vs gay thing. So yeah, maybe things change, but that’s because we try to get things right when we find out we had it wrong. That doesn’t necessarily mean everyone was copying each other in the first place. Sometimes, sure, there will be copying, but you can’t assume that’s the case going in.
  (yes I like to argue — I mean, debate O_O)

  • 

    Hi Ally
    I think that it is a gay vs straight thing like the tying off of condoms. If authors research other aspects of the gay lifestyle I don’t think it would be difficult to check stuff like that and verify that it’s done differently among gay men than among straight couples.

    **

    I get all my information like this from gay men. Female M/M authors know at least a few gay men or gay authors, surely, to whom they can pose some of these questions? I just email them and ask my questions.:) Sure some of them may think I’m a crackhead, but they give me the answers. *g*

• 

  Any m/m writers who aren’t sure about something “real” gay men do can feel free to e-mail me. I may not be an expert, but I have (cough) been around the block.

  • 

    Okay, Rick. Just remember, you asked for it *g*
    **cracks knuckles**

    *

    Wave, I totally agree, we really should be emailing Rick — I mean, our gay male friends and fellow authors — for research purposes. The point is, though, lazy research and copying other authors aren’t really the same thing.
    (my dad: “You should be a lawyer. You just love to argue.”
    me: “Do not!”)
    And, wow, all these little things that are so different between straights and gays that who wouldn’t ever thought they were??? I guess we all tend to believe our own experience is the same as everyone else’s, hmmm…

    • 

      Ally
      I love research which is why I always go to the “source”. You recall I consulted you recently when I was uncertain about certain “facts” in a book about someone who had been involved in a very serious accident, but 3 weeks later was having a vigorous three way.:) You very kindly gave me the right answer.

      • 

        I am always your humble servant, my dear <3

  • 

    Rick

    “I may not be an expert, but I have (cough) been around the block.”
    *
    Yet you were offended when I asked you whether you were a cock whore.:-D You know I love you regardless.

• 

  For the record I’m still WTF over tying off condoms, too. My partners always just flushed them down the toilet (at risk of clogging up the sewer line… that would be fun to explain to a landlord… )
  ***
  My teens and I recently came across an obviously used (and untied) condom in the parking lot at a park. After both teens went “Ewww!” I said, “Well at least they used protection.”

  • 

    My first boyfriend worked for his dad who owned a cesspool pumping business. He used to talk about opening the cesspools and seeing all the used condoms floating on top. That was an eye opener to li’l ol’innocent 15 year old me! LOL.
    *
    L

  • 

    Oh God, Kat, I think that was mine. So sorry!

    • 

      LOL!!! (Well again like I said, at least you were playing safe…*buahahaha*)

• 

  Wave,

  Agreed. I have a similar mission — to educate — and your blog is one of the few where we all seem to be able to discuss these things in an open and civil manner. If I feel free to speak, (maybe too freely — people gonna think I’m a ‘ho what with talk of golf courses, former partners, etc) it attests to your abilities as a blog mistress. 😉
  ***
  I was once engaged to a gay man (looong story, maybe I’ll write it someday) so I do come at the genre with differing viewpoints than some women. I’m sure I still get it wrong sometimes, but then I’ve faced similar critique over my het stories, so go figure.

  • 

    Katrina

    “If I feel free to speak, (maybe too freely — people gonna think I’m a ‘ho what with talk of golf courses, former partners, etc) it attests to your abilities as a blog mistress”

    **

    We’re all agreed that the only “ho” here is Rick because he admitted it on another poll.:) He’s my favourite cock whore and I use him whenever I can ….oops, I mean I use his expertise and extensive experience (is that alliteration?) in this area whenever I can. (Now he’ll never answer my emails).

• 

  Ditto what Katrina said. I love that we can have these discussions here! I makes me feel part of a larger community as a human being and it really helps me as an author.

  • 

    Ally
    You can leave your money at the door.:-D

    **

    One of the things I hope will never change here is that we will continue to debate and have differing opinions without people getting offensive and rude.

• 

  Back to the topic at hand, as an author who has not actually used this term (but then admittedly don’t address the topic in my work in the first place) I’ve suggested “clean” stems from a str8 term perpetuated by str8 men who, because they think of women as “clean” or “unclean”, then use that term to describe themselves as disease-free to prospective female partners. In turn, female authors who’ve heard or used this term in real life then use it in m/m. Two gay men are telling us “clean” is not such a nice term to use in certain contexts. I maintain that use of it isn’t necessarily a “trope”, but agree it is certainly a misguided usage. As HIV and safe sex are very sensitive issues because they concern, well, life and death, I’d say yes, m/m authors, take note.
  ***
  But cocks do twitch, according to my own observations and those of at least half the other people who responded to that particular post. And cocks in my stories will continue to twitch, among other interesting activities. 😉
  ***
  ***

• 

  As the proud owner of one for more years than I want to admit it to, I will say that, yes, cocks do twitch.

  • 

    Thanks, Rick! (Though this is the second time you’ve made me spew my coffee!)

    • 

      Katrina
      You and Ally and all of the other authors should pay me for all the entertainment I provide you on a regular basis on this site. If you’re not nice to me I’ll take my site and move it to the het side of romance writing and have those authors explain dusting, sprinkling, throbbing, thumping, twitching and pulsing..:)

      • 

        Hmm… Salutations Wave? Jesse Knows Bestest? Intelligent Wenches Who Really Like Smutty Publications? (What can I say, slow day at the office…)

        • 

          LOLOL!
          **falls over**

          *

          Wave, honey, you’ll just have to take payment in sexual favors. Er. Fictional, that is *g*

        • 

          This must be a really slow day at the office wench.:)

• 

  Sigh. I am a fallible, fallible human being. I was spooning with Mike on Monday as the inner spoon. Dozing, I felt Mike’s penis give 3 firm pulses against my butt and my eyes flew open. THIS IS TWITCHING!! Sigh. I repent of my error. My hatred for the word blinded me to the reality being described. I apologize to al M/M authors.

  -Stuart

  Ally I’m writing this while waiting for my flu shot. I’ll answer your query when I get home.

  • 

    LOL! Well “pulse” is a superior word anyway, IMHO 🙂 And I love the phrase “inner spoon” too, that’s awesome!

    *

    BTW, good on you for getting your flu shot! I’m going for mine on Monday.

  • 

    Stuart
    “Dozing, I felt Mike’s penis give 3 firm pulses against my butt and my eyes flew open. THIS IS TWITCHING!! Sigh. I repent of my error. My hatred for the word blinded me to the reality being described. I apologize to all M/M authors.”

    I am deeply shocked. 3 firm pulses?? WOW. You have now lost all credibility with me. I don’t know how you can make this up to me after all the hard work I went to,typing the previous post, when I could have been engaged in more lascivious pursuits.

    • 

      Wave,

      I’m sorry. 🙁 How can I make it up to you???

      -Stuart

      • 

        Stuart

        “I’m sorry. How can I make it up to you???”

        Don’t worry, I’ll figure something out.:) Maybe I’ll ask you to pose, with a dusting of chest hair, as one of my Friday Guys.

        • 

          Wave:

          I’d love to oblige and be a Friday guy but I can’t meet the necessary stipulation. Unfortunately, my chest is thickly covered with hair. It’s why all my tattoos are on my arms, legs, and butt. 😉 You’ll have to look for another man with a sprinkling of chest hair. Perhaps, Rick Reed or Sean or Josh Lanyon (is he a guy?).

          -Stuart

• 

  Stuart,

  “Pulse” is a good description, too! And “firm” is always a nice adjective. 😉

• 

  I agree with Katrina that most of these issues aren’t unique to m/m romance. Or, heck, even to m/f romance.

  I’ve read plenty of genre fiction and classics peppered with cliches and silly descriptions, and music is full of them too.

  Oh, and when was the last time you read a “professional” book review? Full of words like “poignant,” “stunning,” “timely,” etc. Barrrrff.

  But I do believe “clean” in regard to STDs came directly from m/f romance (and cable TV shows), where I don’t think it has a negative connotation at all. If anything, I’d call it neutral.

  Honestly, though, I don’t think it should be that big of a deal. As a woman, I don’t find it particularly insulting when I read about the hymen being located somewhere in the depths of the uterus, or when virgin blood is described as flowing in copious amounts, etc. Misinformed and ridiculous, yes, but not offensive.

  Authors, take note and try to be a little more informed. Readers, have a sense of humor about some of this stuff.

  • 

    Hi Jen,

    About 10 years ago, I went to a local family practice physician in Brooklyn (in NYC! for God’s sake!!) who wouldn’t treat me by giving me an examination and an HIV test because “I wasn’t the right sort of person for his practice.” Really! He felt like he could say that to my face!! Very upset, I went, instead, to Methodist Hospital where the doctor THERE asked me: “How do you KNOW you’re gay maybe you haven’t met the right woman yet? Women are pretty wonderful.” I remember being so angry that I was having my sexuality called into question during the vulnerable experience of a medical exam. It was awful!! Things may have gotten better, but there’s still so much medical prejudice out there against Gay, Lesbian, and Transgendered people. When I read words like ‘clean,’ it’s not funny like all the cliches like copious amounts of virgin’s blood. “Clean” brings up all the feelings about the millions in America who view me as unclean and contaminated just for making love to a man. I think I have a good sense of humor as a reader, but about this I can’t.

    -Stuart

• 

  “Dozing, I felt Mike’s penis give 3 firm pulses against my butt and my eyes flew open.”
  ***
  Actually, Stuart has a great opening line for a steamy 1st-person story there. *runs and hides*

• 

  To me, the insurance agent, “clean” is the ticket- and accident-free state of one’s driving record. 😀
  *
  (Also the freshly-bathed or ripe-and-sweaty state of one’s private parts. A question that allows one to avoid a faceful of stank during oral sex. But you didn’t wanna know that, did you?)
  *
  I’m a goody-goody girl married to the guy I’ve been with since age 20 and have had so few sexual partners that “clean”, “unclean”, “pos”, “neg”, and such were never integrated too deeply into my vocabulary. Lord, am I glad I’m not a writer.
  *
  Although…when I’m line editing a m/m book, am I now obligated to reference this post in my comments and inform the author that “clean” is no longer acceptable? O_O

  • 

    Jen, you have two responsibilities. 🙂 First, to abolish the word ‘clean’ as a description of HIV status. Second, to abolish the verbs “to dust” and “to sprinkle” in association with Men’s upper bodies from all M/M literature. My head will explode and my brain matter spatter over my innocent Sony Ereader if I read the following sentence (given with variants) one more time: “His massive/firm/wiry/hard/muscular chest was dusted/sprinkled with golden/dark/bronze/night-black hairs.” 🙂 A million stars to the author who can come up with new verbs to describe the distribution of chest hair!!

    -Stuart

• 

  Stuart:

  “painstakingly implanted”?

  Elle

  • 

    Hi Elle,

    I like that!! 🙂 Let’s try a sample sentence: “Chance leaned over to kiss Mick, then cried out in agony as the thick, night-black chest hair painstakingly implanted in his chest pulled on the transplant scars!” I freely give this sentence to any M/M author who wants to use it.

    -Stuart

• 

  *cringe* Don’t hate me. My next book has the “clean” discussion. The first one to use the word is a heretofore-straight boy, though.

  I see “clean” in so many contexts, my drug testing, my driving record, my pap smears (or, not so much there these days), my STD testing that I assumed it was standard for all things and I tend to lump HIV in with other STDs.

  Thanks for the enlightenment.

  Of course, for the next project, all they have to worry about is syphillis…and potash irrigations to cure it.

• 

  Chest hair. Got it! No sprinkling, dusting, or wiriness.
  *
  Editorial comment: “Per Stuart, this description sucks. In order to protect his e-reader from anger-induced brain splatters, please revise.” 😉
  *
  But the “clean” thing…man, that really is in a LOT of books. O_O

• 

  “His massive/firm/wiry/hard/muscular chest was dusted/sprinkled with golden/dark/bronze/night-black hairs”
  ***
  These descrips appear in het romance, too. I, myself, used “dusted” recently to describe a scant trace of chest hair as it better explained things than “covered with” (since it was, well, a scant trace) while “sprinkled” made me think of decorating cupcakes. In some cases, it’s not so much “WTF m/m authors?” but more “WTF romance authors?” I myself have asked the latter question a lot, which is one reason I started writing romance, and one reason I was lured to the m/m side of the fence. So some of these annoying little things are common to romance in general.
  ***
  If you think weird stuff turns up in m/m, you should see the strange things they discuss and debate at the het romance blogs! (Who I’ll refrain from mentioning lest Wave hits their search stats, but we all know which blogs I’m referring to.)

• 

  Angelia

  “Thanks for the enlightenment.

  Of course, for the next project, all they have to worry about is syphillis…and potash irrigations to cure it.”

  *
  You will be banned if you make me laugh and spit my coffee all over myself one more time.

• 

  Stuart
  I might remove my stipulation about a dusting or sprinkling of chest hair. Some of the ladies on Friday would love to get their hands on a few guys with a lot of body and chest hair because there aren’t a lot of them around. Most of the Friday Guys are waxed more than the women.:)

• 

  What a horrible thing for a DOCTOR to say! God, that makes me sick. As a nurse, I don’t like being associated with “people” (and I use the term very, very loosely) like that. However, I don’t think that authors using the term “clean” without knowing that many gay men find it offensive (because for straight people, it’s a very neutral term) is at all the same thing as someone knowingly, cruelly, deliberately belittling you the way those horrible people did. I can understand where you’re coming from. But, yeah. You know we’re not those doctors, right? I kills me to think I might unwittingly hurt anyone that badly 🙁

  *

  For the record, if anyone reading my books finds offensive terms, PLEASE email me and tell me. I would never, ever use an offensive term knowingly, and I’d much rather someone let me know it’s offensive than go talk about what an offensive author I am all over the web. And I’m not talking about you, Stuart! This whole discussion just brought to mind the possibility that this might, in fact, happen. I’d really rather it didn’t.

• 

  **stuart!**
  late to the party – girl’s gotta work – but i think i love you! as a science educator your comments make perfect, perfect sense…
  :0)
  -kkm

• 

  ** crazy segue, wave**
  is it possible to number comments? it would help me track ’em better…
  -kkm

  • 

    KKM

    “** crazy segue, wave**
    is it possible to number comments? it would help me track ‘em better…
    -kkm”

    I don’t know if it’s possible. I could ask Christian at some point but right now he has a number of projects underway for the website and he would kick my ass for even suggesting another one. Numbering would only be necessary on posts like this with a huge response.:)

• 

  Wow, what a fascinating discussion. I’ll echo what people have said as I believe the “I’m clean” discussion comes from m/f romance. It was especially prevalent 5-10 years ago in category romance, iirc. I believe I haven’t used it—that’s partly a function of my writing paranormal/futuristic though so I’m not claiming some kind of higher ground here.

  And, Stuart, I’m so sorry about your experiences with those doctors. Just really awful 🙁

• 

  This has quite an eye-opening discussion *in more ways than one*.

  *putting historian’s hat on* I think the ‘clean’ and ‘unclean’ descriptions have been associated with a person suffering from disease for many years; for eg, it was used in contemporary sources at the time of the plague/s in the Dark Ages.
  *
  It would be interesting – and apologies for this sounding like it’s dismissing the negative connotations of the word – to see whether the word ‘clean’ was first used in reference to HIV and Aids when it became more widely known in the 1970s/1980s and it was often referred to in the media as ‘the gay plague’. Just a thought.

  • 

    Kris
    It seems that we haven’t progressed very far from the 1970s/1980s based on Stuart’s experience with his doctors. Apparently a lot of people still regard gay men as being somehow “unclean” because they have sex with other men and they think that this automatically leads to AIDS. Which is really strange because, according to the latest statistics, the fastest group of new HIV infected people is young black women (I believe the number is 90 – 95%) which happens because black men “on the down low” are having unprotected sex with other men and then infecting their partners.

    • 

      Wave
      “Apparently a lot of people still regard gay men as being somehow “unclean” because they have sex with other men and they think that this automatically leads to AIDS.”
      That makes me think of blood donation. Why are gay men automatically told that they can’t give blood and het men can give it no problem. What makes a het man safer than a gay man or even a woman. What’s to say that the het man doesn’t go around and sleep with other people without his spouse knowing about it. And let’s admit it a het man doesn’t not = a intelligent, responsible I will use protection man.

      • 

        Elyane

        *
        Funny you should mention the issue of blood donations by gays. Recently in Ottawa (Canada – for those living outside the Great White North):) a gay man sued the Canadian Blood Services (CBS), our blood collection agency that replaced the Red Cross which was found negligent several years and lost its status in this area. The Red Cross, I believe, was found guilty of not testing the blood collected and several people contracted Hepatitis C (I may have some of my facts wrong here but that’s the gist of it).

        **

        Anyway this man (Mr. Freedman) claimed that his Charter rights and those of other gay men were violated because the questionnaire used by CBS was developed specifically to screen out gay men – the main “offensive” question related to having sex with other men, even once, since 1977 (I have no idea of the significance of the 1977 date. )

        **

        The case is still before the Superior Court of Canada although Mr. Freedman, the donor in question, agreed to pay $10,000 in damages because he knew he was breaking the rules by lying on the collection form, but he would pay ONLY if the court found that his Charter rights were not violated. He is, in turn, suing CBS for $250,000 after the CBS sued him for negligent misrepresentation because he admitted he knew that he was breaking the rules. Mr. Freedman who is tested regularly is HIV free. (To Be Continued):) TMI??

        **

        As you said, many straight men and women engage in risky sex with women AND men, yet they are not subject to scrutiny and barred from giving blood. I think that everyone who gives blood should be tested (or, the blood itself should be tested prior to being used for transfusions) so that there is no discrimination against gays or straight people, male or female.
        **
        UPDATE

        I just found out (because the newspaper, the National Post, has an editorial on this case in Wednesday’s edition) that the 1977 date was when the FDA in the US and and Australian Red Cross established their guidelines prohibiting gay men from donating blood. Apparently US figures (I don’t know the source) show that gay men are 200 times more likely to have HIV than the average first time blood donor. In addition, in repeat blood donors the ratio rises to 2000:1 (all information quoted from US sources by the National Post, and I have no idea how recent it is). There is no similar statistic about straight men, who we know engage in risky behaviour as well! Of course women never do.:)

• 

  *JenB
  Honestly, though, I don’t think it should be that big of a deal. As a woman, I don’t find it particularly insulting when I read about the hymen being located somewhere in the depths of the uterus, or when virgin blood is described as flowing in copious amounts, etc. Misinformed and ridiculous, yes, but not offensive.
  *
  mmhhh I think it’s extremely offensive, since m/m authors use clean = HIV neg, so the opposite would be dirty/unclean = HIV poz.
  *
  And don’t get me started about all the high risk behavior that goes on in m/m books. What’s up with all these characters just assuming their partner (who they just met a couple of hours/days ago) is aware of his statues and happily jump into bed barebacking.

  • 

    That second point bugs me as well. Okay, risky behaviour is obviously going on in the real world, but when characters who come across as generally sensible and who take care of themselves happily take the word of some guy they’ve just met that it’s all fine they don’t need condoms it bothers me. I mean I could say I’m Queen of Saturn and Empress of Pluto, that doesn’t make it true!

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