Here’s Stuart’s weekly dose. You do remember Stuart, our regular correspondent that most of you have come to love (or dare I say, want to kick to the curb)?*g* I think he has a point in his most current beef. I’m wondering if a few authors ran out of plot bunnies and used the old standby of illness when all else failed. Don’t get mad, it was just a question.:) Here’s his question and a few examples that he offered:
Injuries and illness. It seems that authors of m/m fiction struggle to find ways to get their couples together in situations where nurturing and physicality can turn to love and sex. Many of the authors choose injury and illness as a vehicle for the relationship. Looking at books I’ve recently read by a variety of authors here are a few examples:
1. Zero at the Bone: D is shot, Jack is caregiver.
2. Cut & Run: Zane is hit by shrapnel, Ty is caregiver. Ty gets concussion, Zane is caregiver.
3. Faith and Fidelity: Evan is shot, Matt is caregiver.
4. The One That Got Away: David has migraine and injures shoulder, Trace is caregiver.
5. Under Contract (from Love Ahead): Nick is injured on construction site, Ted is caregiver
6. Over the Road (from Love Ahead): Jimmy in accident, Elliot keeps hospital vigil.
7. Warrior’s Cross: Cameron gets high fever, Julian keeps hospital vigil; Julian injured by dog, Cameron is caregiver.
8. Quarterback Sneak: Cache in hospital, Eric is caregiver.
9. Rough Ride: Wyn injured stringing fence, Ezra is caregiver.
I find the constant stream of injured men and their caregivers somewhat facile and exhausting. Why is this such a continuing theme in m/m novels. Aren’t there other ways of putting men together and giving them a chance to know each other?
I did a brief search and very quickly found several books (without breaking a sweat) that used illness and injury as the main plot point –
It Takes a Hero by Lynn Lorenz
Blind Faith by Claire Thompson
Aquamarine by Sara Bell
Sweet Topping by Carol Lynne
Stepping Stones by Carol Lynne
Untamed Heart by Ally Blue
Mexican Heat by Josh Lanyon & Laura Baumbach
9-1-1 by Chris Owen
Forged by Sean Michael
So authors, what’s your response? I have many more examples where ilness/injury is a theme in M/M books. However, I must admit that I haven’t done an exhaustive search to determine if illness/injuries as a major plot point pervades a large percentage of M/M books.
Because I love his sense of humour I thought I would liven things up with the following additional points from Stuart –
1. Humming. Why do so many characters in M/M Romances hum during fellatio or make-out sessions? A prototypical sentence: “Nick hummed happily in the back of his throat as he took Mike’s dick.” Where did this humming come from? I know a blow job can be colloquially called a ‘hummer,’ but no one ACTUALLY hums!
2. No 69! Where is the 69 in M/M Romances??? I’m sure it’s been used in sex scenes but I can’t think of an instance. Fellatio almost always involves one person blowing another. Why is this?
3.Far, far, far too often the phrase “sucked his brains out through his dick” is used.
Looking forward to comments as usual from both readers and authors. (Can you tell I’m loving this?)
***************
If you have a question that you would like to put forward as a topic for a poll, please email me.
Interesting question, as always, Stuart. Regarding injuries and so on…I have read several author interviews where the author has commented that s/he likes writing m/m stories because men can run around and have adventures and do interesting things–moreso than men with women, especially in historical fiction (a favorite of mine) where the women can’t do much more than sit around and wait for the men to come home. So it makes sense that in the course of all these adventures, things happen, like getting shot, or stabbed, or falling off the roof, and so on. Keep in mind, too, that conflict (tension) drives the plot so having an illness or injury becomes the tension (uncertainty about what is going to happen to the character) that keeps the story moving forward. I’ve had it said to me many times, that if people wrote stories that were truly reflective of the day-to-day lives that most of us live, they’d be pretty boring. So, yes, there is probably a higher percentage of illness/injury portrayed than is realistic, but it may be what is needed to keep the story interesting.
*
69: read Transgressions. If memory serves, I believe Erastes has a couple of very hot 69 scenes in that book.
*
L
I’m also guilty of hurt/comfort in both Standish and Transgressions.
Well, I just reread Miss Me by Mel Spenser last night and there was 69. I was also skimming through Holed Up by Hank Edwards and there was 69 so perhaps Stuart needs to expand his horizons. 🙂 Those are just off the top of my head that I’ve read in the last 24 hours.
*
Humming, no clue, but the phrase “giving someone a hummer” comes from somewhere and I ain’t talking big ugly cars.
*
Illness. I know KZ Snow noted there are 150 books per month released in the GLBT genres (not sure what percentage are m/m) so in all those books released per year, thousands (good, bad and indifferent) there are only so many themes possible. Of course some of them are going to be illness/injury-caregiver. I haven’t read any in quite some time that used that theme. However I did find when I read, for whatever reason, I sometimes find myself drawn to a particular theme. I must have read 5 “high school geek/popular athlete get together later” stories in the space of a week. I was kind of burned out and steered clear. Why did I read so many? Not sure, guess it appealed to me when I was buying them. I could say the genre is overdone but I haven’t read any in 4 months but have read many many books so I can’t say they are ALL that theme. Same with what you noticed. That’s nearly 20 but out of how many m/m books? Hundreds? You could go through and come up with any theme that repeats that often. And I think most (not all of course) of those books involve people in dangerous occupations, law enforcement/fire fighters/rodeo riders/athletes are all people who in general end up injured and needing a caretaker more than lawyers/artists/college students and bookstore owners.
*
So I think if you look for any repeating theme you can find it. We had this discussion on my friend Craig’s blog recently. People have been writing stories for 2000+ years and I hate to say it, but it’s all been done before. There aren’t many original ideas/themes, it’s just all in how you package it to make it new and fresh and interesting to me. So if it appears that everything is always the same, you simply have to cast your net wider because I’m pretty sure EVERY theme conceivable is out there in m/m, just go looking for it.
Don’t know why humming has become a staple trope, but I know from experience that men like it when you suck them – discovered that many years before i discovered writing, and that’s why I sometimes put it in. Hope I’m not guilty of starting the trope!!
_
As for the illness thing, that stems from fanfic, I’m sure. Hurt/Comfort is a well-known, well-worn theme in fanfic, so it was inevitable that it spills over into original when so many gay romance writers are ex-fanficcers.
Oh – and another thing. Perhaps.. JUST PERHAPS… it’s because women tend to research things when writing. OR when having sex. If you do a google search for humming oral sex you’ll see it’s widely said that it’s a good thing to try out.
I don’t know if some writers might do the injuries or illness theme to contrive a situation to get the characters together, but I suspect many just like it and so do some readers – I know I do! In fact your list of books with these situations counts as a recs list for me now. 😉
~
As a fanfic reader and writer I always liked the hurt/comfort stories, whether with the slash folded into the mix or not. I tend to like those episodes of a show where some poor guy gets hurt and has to be looked after. Heck, I was reading a m/f category romance and couple of days ago and my favourite part was when the hero’s sidekick got shot! I won’t even start to list what I’ve done to the characters in my own stories, again, sometimes with romance in the mix, sometimes not. I’m just made that way.
~
I guess it works as a dramatic device because it raises the stakes in a story. And if a guy is being all stubbornly stoic and refusing to ‘fess up to his feelings, the shock of seeing the one he loves in danger can crack his shell. As long as he doesn’t turn into a big pile of sobbing blubber because of it, then I don’t mind the trope.
Oh and on 69? Well in romance the sex and the orgasm is always so stupendously, world-shatteringly awesome, like-nothing-he-ever-felt-before that they have to do it one at a time because the one receieving surely couldn’t possibly concentrate on doing it to someone else at the same time. 😉
I would think even if the top of your head doesn’t blow off, it’s difficult (but not impossible) to concentrate when getting a blow job. But not having a penis I can’t speak from experience. 🙂 I could do an informal survey I suppose. Think the guys in the office would be interested in contributing to the combined knowledge of Wave’s readers?
I have this theory that having a hero be tortured in some grim way, while nobly bearing up under the pain, is a pretty popular trope in everything, not just m/m fiction. Just look at the number of times Captain Kirk gets beaten up in some way that leaves him without a shirt. Everyone likes to see a good looking man suffer (or perhaps I’m generalizing too much here? 😉 )
It serves lots of purposes – he gets to be vulnerable without seeming like a wimp, we pity and sympathise with him more because of it, and we admire his bravery. It’s also a good way of breaking through his “mustn’t talk about my emotions” social conditioning – so that he can say things to the guy who is looking after him, that he might have been too embarrassed/repressed to say otherwise.
Does it count as an offense if one person is injured but the other one DOESN’T get to look after him? *is guilty of this* And yeah, I think it’s a trope in MOST entertainment — how many TV shows and movies show people in law enforcement getting shot all the time, when in reality, that rarely happens? Entertainment just tends toward the dramatic, I think.
**
Also, apparently humming feels damn good. At least, in my personal experience, both male and female recipients seem to enjoy it. *coughs* 😉
**
As for 69’s, I think you’re just getting unlucky with where you cast your net. I know I’ve read it several times, to the point that at one time I was considering complaining that people used it too often. *grins* Ironic, eh? I know Ally Blue uses it in her stories quite a bit (It’s made quite a big deal of in one of the BCPI books, actually) and I’m sure it’s come up elsewhere, too, but I can’t think of it at the moment. Braindead. 😉
On the 69 issue, I wonder if it is written about less because from a woman’s perspective it can be very awkward. Is it easier between two men? Because in my experience, unless the guy was just the right height, it just didn’t work!
I guess if you look at it in terms of movies and television (especially drama series) a lot of people get hurt, sick, blown up, shot, stabbed, burned in fires, fall from cliffs, have car accidents, get mauled by animals etc etc…
Fiction is not meant to imitate life to the point where characters only discuss their shopping lists, jobs, kids, pets, parents or whatever…that would get boring.
Conflict is necessary to drive plot and I guess having an active conflict rather than a passive one appeals on some level.
That’s how it is for me, anyway.
As for humming? No idea where it comes from, sorry.
Good morning everyone!
Ironically, I’ve been home this week recovering from the flu!!!!
*
My partner Mike has been an excellent caregiver: bringing me yogurt and orange juice and walking the dog. He’s the best! I’ll have to suck his brains out through his dick when I’m completely recovered. And then we’ll 69. 😉 And, in order to complete the circle of m/m romance phrases, someone will get “fucked through the mattress.” Then we’ll bite each other’s shoulders and mumble “mine, mine.” But that’s all I’ll say about that.
*****
A lot of times men in m/m romances are written as emotionally retarded. One protagonist can’t tell the other is attracted to him despite “…thinking he saw a quick gleam deep in the other guy’s eyes, but it couldn’t mean what he thought it could.” These two guys can’t have a conversation about the simplest emotional/relational challenges and are constantly storming out of the house or (more disturbingly from a domestic violence perspective) having a fistfight. What these guys can do is bandage each other and provide first aid. I just wish guys were allowed to be more emotionally self-aware and mature. Now, just wondering here, but I have a sense that women often experience men as emotional retards who are good at practical things. Could that sense have drifted into m/m romance. Are men emotional retards? It could be true. At the psychotherapy clinic where I volunteer I’m one of only 4 therapists out of 30. I work in a field where women are the majority and Mike is always telling me: “You studied for years to learn how to express your feelings, so give me a break if I can’t figure out what I’m feeling so quickly.” So maybe guys who can figure things out emotionally are a fantasy and the stumped guys of m/m romance are a true depiction.
*
-Stuart
p.s. everybody has to be extra nurturing today because I’m grumpy from being sick and need lots of love. 😉
I really haven’t noticed a major flux in hurt/comfort stories. Possibly because I read a variety of m/m and alternate between themes.
Hurt/comfort works well with m/m, because of the types of employment we place our men in.
Take a look at the average ‘action/adventure’ romance characters. You will find policemen, detectives, fireman, military/soldiers, rangers, nosy reporters, vampire/werewolf hunters, sport professionals, cowboys, special service agents, vice squad leaders… – they are all in dangerous jobs and therefore, more accessible to injury.
If you add doctors, male nurses, physical therapist and EMTs, it is their job to aid in comfort (so it is easy to write a love interest who has been hurt).
Now, in my humble opinion – which doesn’t amount to much because I am just your average m/m reader and wanna be author –
I don’t think it’s right to lump all characters with handicaps in the hurt/comfort category.
Yeah, some of them may have been the result of an injury and that is how the future lovers get together….
But what about the ones that were born with the handicap? Or the injury happened years before the two heroes meet?
Also, is the hurt/comfort only limited to physical trauma? What about the psychological aspects such as the service man coming home from war, the aftermath of rape, the discovery of hidden memories of incest, dealing with death or the break up of a long time romance, overcoming dependency from addictions – wouldn’t these scenarios be considered hurt/comfort as well?
If so, then Stuart must really be put out.
Most stories (unless they are short, sweet or just straight erotica) will have some element of hurt/comfort. For some, it is a trace element, for others, it may be a major plot device.
I say, just enjoy the story for what it is – and try to vary your reading subject themes. Just by knowing the occupations of the characters, will give one insight to the possibility of a hurt/comfort somewhere in the novel.
69 in M/M stories are there – (the last book I read, Wes & Torn, had a nice one where Torn started out on top, then was afraid his legs would give out, so they laid side by side and did it.) I guess it’s just not written about very much. Personally, I don’t do it much. I get rather nervous when my playful parts are between the teeth of someone who could be cumming at any moment.
As for the humming question – it’s no big deal. Some men/women do it, some don’t. Some like it, some could care less. I haven’t heard yet that humming while participating in oral sex has hurt anyone. To each their own.
Stuart, you are a hoot! Glad you’re recovering, and see, having someone take care of you while you’re sick is definitely nice! It makes a lovely story even in real life. And if Mike is biting your neck and saying, “mine, mine,” shouldn’t you be kissing and licking his neck and saying, “yours, yours?” while you enjoy the salty taste of him with his own unique flavor underneath? Shame on you if you’re not!
I’ve never tried humming while giving my husband a BJ — I’ll definitely give it a go and give you the feedback. I have seen lots of 69s in stories, and it seems to work pretty well in real life too! DH and I don’t seen to have any issues with it unless he gets too excited and makes me gag…but that’s a different story. I wanna know how to stop the gag reflex! Is it as easy as every man makes it seem when giving his first blow job and can experimentally open his throat and deep throat his lover’s penis the first time? It’s gotta be a man-thing! LOL I have yet to conquor it and would love some pointers. Patric, you out there?
Stuart — here, have a Krispy Kreme donut & a cup of cocoa – surefire cures for whatever ails you.
*
My fingers are crossed that people haven’t reached their quota of hurt/comfort yet, given the title of my upcoming project: TLC 101. Yup, the whole story centers around how an accident brings together two very different men.
*
I don’t mind a little hurt, but I want it to be balanced by a boatload of comfort; no torture porn for me!
I do love the questions you post, Wave. If nothing else, they certainly get me thinking. 😀
Hurt/Comfort: I think this is a staple of gay romance, much as secret baby stories are a staple of M/F romance. Some people love them; some hate them. However, they’re always going to be there.
Humming: No clue. Sorry.
69: I’m not sure about this one. I’ve read a lot of books, and a LOT of 69 scenes. I do know that if I use a 68 instead, it’s normally because sex will follow.
As far as women thinking men are emotionally stunted, as Stuart mentioned in his comment, I don’t think that’s the case at all. Personally, I try really hard to straddle the middle of that road because a) if I show too much emotion in a male character then someone will call him a chick-with-a-dick or b) if I show no emotion, then the character looks like an asshole. It’s one of those catch-22’s that I hate.
Hi Amanda,
I imagine the question is how to show the types of emotion that would read as “male” to the reader. I suspect why that’s difficult to do but I don’t want to make assumptions, so here’s my question. If we assume that straight men and gay men have similar emotional lives, why couldn’t the gay male characters in m/m romance simply be modeled on how a heterosexual and female author experiences her husband/boyfriend/significant other/fuckbuddy. Then his complexity and nuance could be transferred to m/m romance and the character wouldn’t seem like a chick-with-a-dick.
*
Is the romance genre against characters with emotional complexity the way SF/Fantasy used to be (before women SF/Fantasy authors liberated the genre)? For example, in Jenre’s plot summary of today’s review of “Making it Up,” she says, “Tommy has made a dreadful error of judgement in the past in his relationship with J.J. which caused their split…The fact that the two men never discussed their problem also allowed me to understand why Tommy had never been able to move on…” How can a couple end an LTR without any discussion? Does that happen a lot among heterosexuals? Is that usual in m/f romance? Would it be too chick-with-a-dick to have had a conversation?
-Stuart
P.S. I love the idea of a secret baby story. Is being a “secret baby” like being a werewolf? “When the moon is full or a cold wind blows from the East, then the beautiful, sculpted muscles of Vyvyan Augustus would shrink and enplumpen to those of an infant. Only his piercing, blue eyes would remain the same as his mouth opened in a plaintive wail.”
Stuart, I don’t think that we can assume that straight men and gay men have similar emotional lives. A straight man has never been in the closet, has never had to hide or lie about his sexuality, has never had to come out to family or friends, has never had to enter into a false marriage as a way to present as “normal” to society, etc. Yes, I am generalizing a bit (plenty of straight guys have difficult emotional experiences) but bottom line, straight white males in our society really don’t know the full meaning of oppression, repression, and denial. By extension, then, this would be the problem with using a “typical” straight guy as an emotional barometer for a gay character. Just a thought.
*
L
Leslie,
I’ve heard so much suffering sitting in my therapist’s chair for 13 years that I think most human lives contain a significant dollop of agony. Of course, I know my sample is skewed because people come to me because they’re in agony. But I’ve known enough people by now to know that most of us are in pain of one sort or another, whatever our gender, class, race, sexual orientation etc. I don’t want to dismiss the exacerbation that societal hatred lends to already difficult lives. My own life with Mike and his with me has been shaped by our shared and individual struggles with self-loathing and internalized homophobia.
*
At the same time, if an author needed an emotional template to begin constructing a character while seeking to have emotions that read as “male” (whatever that really means), I think a straight guy would be a good place to start and then you can ask a gay friend or Rick Reed (he offered last week) or myself (I offer now) for all the information about the corrosive and redemptive effects of homophobia.
-Stuart
Talking from an historical perspective, (and still sadly in many modern day societies) I think “not being sure” what signals mean are a safety mechanism. My guys in regency or 17th century england risk their very lives if they act on a signal that isn’t actually there.
Erastes,
You probably get asked this a lot. But what’s your perspective on “As Meat Loves Salt?”
-Stuart
I thought it was very good, Stuart. I particularly loved the character of Jacob Cullen – (whilst hating him, but STILL wanting his redemption) he was perfectly written and made me long to be able to write as well as that. There were a couple of flaws, but for me it’s definitely in my top ten of gay historicals – my review is here.
–
http://speakitsname.wordpress.com/2007/08/18/review-as-meat-loves-salt-by-maria-mccann/
Erastes,
W. O. W. That was a beautifully written review. A thorough, lovely meditation on the book inviting me to share your experience of the novel as well as learn about its plot, protagonists, and accuracy. I love the judicious way you compose a sentence. It was like a well-written short story and a satisfying experience in itself. Thank you for directing me to the link!!
-Stuart
P.S. I loved the book as well, though it was an agonizing, horrible experience.
Thank you, Stuart – re-reading it I wince at the typos, but I was swept along by the book and wanted to get my thoughts onto the page. Your comments were very kind!
–
It was agonizing and horrific – but it stays with you doesn’t it? That’s how all good books should. Many gay romance writers are feeling a bit restricted HEA wise and want to write more endings the way they want to, but I feel that (from the responses i’ve had from publishers regarding a non HEA book i’ve been submitting) that they are sick of “the dead gay”
Erastes –
The book Dog Years by Mark Doty is also painful and amazing. I was crying on the commuter train as I read about his dogs and his dying lover. It’s non-fiction, but Doty is a poet and lacking in sentimentality and his writing is lyrical and disciplined.
I’m hoping in the m/m world to find well-written books like As Meat Loves Salt, or A Catholic Education (by Robert Benard) that maximize character and plot as opposed to sex scenes. What would you recommend?
-Stuart
p.s. I notice Lethe Press is offering ebooks by Lev Raphael and Melissa Scott, so perhaps the division between “mainstream gay press” and “m/m romance publishers” is becoming more meaningless.
More stuff that’s not unique to m/m romance. I bet it would take us less than ten minutes to come up with a hundred m/f romances that involve illness, injury, and other caregiver themes. Probably some lesbian books as well, and more than half of m/f/m menage stories.
*
I hum when I’m giving head. Always have. Not “Mary Had a Little Lamb” or anything rhythmic or with a tune, but usually some kind of happy noise. It’s hard to say “I’m glad you’re enjoying this; it’s turning me on as well,” with a mouth full of dick, and I don’t know sign language, so humming (grunting, moaning, squealing, sighing, etc.) is pretty much the only other option.
*
Guys hum when performing cunnilingus as well, for pretty much the same reasons.
Hi JenB,
A question, as you are an editor. If the sex scenes were left out, could a m/f romance easily be changed to an m/m romance? Aside from protag gender, are there any general and substantive differences between m/f and m/m romances??
-Stuart
Aside from gender, no, there aren’t all that many differences. Why should there be? Two people meet, fall in love, deal with internal and external conflict, have sex, build a relationship, etc. One partner often takes the more nurturing role. Obviously men can’t get pregnant, so that element is missing, but they’re really fairly similar.
*
I know a lot of readers complain about the lack of political awareness and current issues in m/m romance, but I don’t see any more need for that stuff in m/m romance than in m/f romance. I get just as annoyed with preachiness and political agenda in m/f romance as in m/m romance.
*
But gay people and straight people do have a lot in common sexually, so I don’t see why people are surprised that gay sex scenes end up sounding like straight sex scenes. With straight ppl there’s a vagina involved, but we also have oral and anal sex (*gasp!*). We play with toys. We fuck just for the sake of fucking, sometimes without any romance or tenderness. We talk dirty. We sleep naked. We watch porn. We use condoms, even many of us in LTRs. Cocks attached to straight men twitch and leak as much the ones attached to gay men. Straight people live together in sin. We hide our relationships from friends and family because we end up with ppl our friends and family don’t approve of.
*
The mechanics of the long term relationship are different, sure, as are personal feelings that come from being gay. Heck, one gay man’s lfie experiences aren’t even always the same as another gay man’s life experiences. But the romance and the sex aren’t all that different.
*
Love and sex are pretty universal, aren’t they?
Stuart
You asked “If the sex scenes were left out, could a m/f romance easily be changed to an m/m romance? Aside from protag gender, are there any general and substantive differences between m/f and m/m romances??”
**
The short answer is that many het authors tried to do so. I found that some writers just changed the protags’ occupations and the names and used their old m/f plots when m/m became so popular. In most cases it was quite transparent because one of the protags had feminine attributes and the topics the couples discussed veered on chicks with dicks. I guess they were just being lazy.
**
For me the substantive difference between het and M/M romance was that the heroines in het romances, for the most part, waited to be rescued by the swashbuckling hero, and generally were not full partners in the relationships, even though these books are written by women. There are many other differences – way too much angst and crying and in about half of the books the females were all having babies (not that there’s anything wrong with having babies, it was just a continuing theme). Some het romances have plots like Harlequin Romances which are generally fluff pieces.
**
On another point, As Leslie said earlier, we can’t compare the life of a straight male with that of a gay male for a number of reasons –
“I don’t think that we can assume that straight men and gay men have similar emotional lives. A straight man has never been in the closet, has never had to hide or lie about his sexuality, has never had to come out to family or friends, has never had to enter into a false marriage as a way to present as “normal” to society”
**
Also “bottom line, straight white males in our society really don’t know the full meaning of oppression, repression, and denial. By extension, then, this would be the problem with using a “typical” straight guy as an emotional barometer for a gay character.”
**
The same thing can be said if you were writing a diverse character. The life experiences are not the same even though love and sex may be pretty universal, as Jen says. Life experience puts a whole different complexity on living and loving someone if you’re gay and/or diverse. Straight men don’t have to be afraid for their lives just because they are male.
We’re all different – straight, gay, male or female and the books should recognize that.
I don’t believe I’ve ever had anyone hum during a BJ. I’ve written a lot of blowjobs, though, so I might be mistaken lol. Maybe all the humming is really more of a “Mmmm, yummy” sound rather than humming like one’s humming a song. I admit to being guilty of making the “Mmm, yummy” sound. *blush*
*
And of course, now that the injury/illness thing gets brought up, which I’ve never used before ever…I just submitted one featuring a sick hero. *facepalm* There’s no caregiver scenario, though, since no one knows he’s sick and it’s not in any way the means for them getting together. So maybe that’s different enough to not be annoying when it comes out. 🙂
*
Along the lines of not enough 69…NOT ENOUGH FROTTAGE, either. Srsly. Frottage is hot and severely common. Where is it in books??
Fae-
You’re absolutely right about the lack of frottage. I’ve always thought it was fantastic and wondered at its absense!! I guess grinding out that kind of scene isn’t something that stimulates m/m authors. 😉
-Stuart
Everyone else has weighed in on the hurt/comfort thing.
*
I don’t write 69 because I don’t like 69. I don’t give good head when I’m screaming in pleasure. Even if I’m not screaming, it’s still awkward and neither one can concentrate on what they are getting or giving. Maybe it’s different for guys.
*
OTOH, I love frottage. I came out of a fandom that almost required a frot scene in every story. I don’t want it to be mandatory, but I would like to read more of it. (anytime I play with Greek Gods? mandatory)
*
I am stongly of the opinion that disabilities should not fall under hurt/comfort. It’s all in the character’s attitude.
*
And guys TOTALLY dig the mmmmm, yummy sounds. Nothing to blush about.
There are several explanations:
*
1. Most ebooks are fairly short. Angst in any given form are an easy way to get characters together. And who doesn’t love a little bit of angst. IRL almost no couple gets together like this
*
2. (Don’t shoot me for this) Some e-books and especially those in romance are relatively simple stories revolving around getting two or more characters together by any means given.
*
3. The stories are about sex, smut, porn. Who cares how they get together. We want the hot stuff 😛
*
4. Copying and no not plagarism or lit. conventions. You see it very often. Kinda like The Da Vinci Code. Once that book was a bestseller, books like it started appearing. It’s the same for m/m books. Angsty stories sell, so authors write those. Until some other “thing” comes along
*
5. Romance thrives on the damsel in distress so m/m romance thrives on the mansel in distress.
*
*
As for the humming. Trope, convention. One author read it and liked it and incorperated it and so on and so on.
*
Remember. Most m/m authors are female (not sure if male authors wrote about humming too, could be I think) they got their info somewhere 😉
Hi Larissa,
The reasons I read contemporary M/M Romance don’t really include #3 porn and smut. I generally skim the sex scenes if there’s nothing in them that involves the plot. I like reading the romances for the pleasure of seeing two men learn to love each other and relate to each other. M/M Romance can recall for me the feeling of when I first took another man’s hand in tenderness. (A cold night in Autumn, outside a college party, my heart pounding until I thought I was going to drop dead from fear and desire, I reached out and took Steven’s hand. And we stood there in the cold with our hands clasped and it was holiness and lust and wonder and it didn’t make the years of bullying worth it, but it…. placed the pain in a context where it was no longer unbearable.) M/M romance can give me back the wonder of my own past.
*
Even the guily pleasure of gaytopia where men can love without fear helps me to feel more hopeful and positive about the future. M/M romances have helped me be a better lover to my partner because the hope of a better world helps me to be more emotionally available to him.
*
Sometimes I feel like an archeologist when I read M/M romances, seeking truths about how men love that I can carry into my own life. Maybe M/M Romance is candy and I’m seeking nutrition from something that is not a proper vehicle for it. But I’m trying to find narratives against which to compare and renew and reflect upon my life as a gay man and there’s not a lot out there. So maybe my reasons for reading M/M romances are atypical.
-Stuart
Aw, Stuart, now I don’t feel so bad for not having a lot of sex in my stories! There’s barely even kissing in a couple of them. 🙂
**
I admire authors who can work plot into their sex and still have oodles of explicit sex scenes, but I am not one of them.
**
And I know what you mean about wanting something that recreates that feeling… The unbearable lightness of being, to steal a phrase from a book that has almost nothing to do with this. I hope you can find some!
Stuart
Leslie just reviewed a wonderful book, a memoir set in Maine that you might be interested in reading – A Report from Winter by Wayne Courtois. Here’s the link to the review
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=8289
**
There are many books that we can recommend that are different and not all about sex, but about relationships. Here’s another one – A Note in the Margin by Isabelle Rowan. Here’s a link to the review
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=436
**
I’ll add Dash and Dingo by Sean Kennedy and Catt Ford. Here’s the link to the review –
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=8355
Stuart, everyone has their own reason to read m/m and in your case they go deeper. I honestly had not considered that there are people who read m/m books for a reason as deep as yours. For me it is mostly light reading and entertainement. So I hope my careless babbeling did not offend you!
Larissa
I don’t agree with some of what you said, for example
*
“3. The stories are about sex, smut, porn. Who cares how they get together. We want the hot stuff”
**
I don’t read the books for sex, smut and porn. If that’s all I wanted I would read PWP not m/m romances. These books are supposed to be “romances”. Many of the reviewers on the site complain about the fact that there’s no plot and 3/4 of the content of the books are all about sex.
**
“Some e-books and especially those in romance are relatively simple stories revolving around getting two or more characters together by any means given.”
**
I don’t think I’m in the minority when I say that I would like to read complex stories rather than the majority of what’s being offered today.
**
“Copying and no not plagarism or lit. conventions. You see it very often”
**
You’re right that many authors have no originality in their stories. One author had the gall to steal the plot of Firestarter by Stephen King. Did she think that no one would notice?However, some authors do manage to come up with original stories that don’t revolve entirely around sex. Just recently I read and reviewed Dash and Dingo by Sean Kennedy and Catt Ford which is a wonderful adventure and it had an original plot. So they are out there, you just have to find them.
**
“Romance thrives on the damsel in distress so m/m romance thrives on the mansel in distress”
**
Maybe I’m not the run of the mill “romance” reader because I do not like stories about the damsel in distress, consequently I would like the mansel in distress even less.
**
“And who doesn’t love a little bit of angst”
**
Most times I can’t take all the emo.
Wave, #3 wasn’t really meant to be taken that serious. 😉 It is true though, that is some e-books the focus is more on the sex than on the plot and the plot only serves as a means to an end and is barely existent.
*
The truth is that I believe the m/m e-book publishing is changing. There are different demands now than there were a few years a go. Due to the rise of more e-publishers and the quick and dirty stories, the erotica and romance publishing has been muddled. Long e-books as there were quite a number of a couple of years ago are rare.
*
We talked about this before, how there are badly edited books out there with bad covers and even sadder plots. The quality is in decline. I believe this post is directly linked to it. While there wil always be angsty (emo is something different to me as it reflect more on the character and his or her state of mind. Angsty revers more to a situation) stories in romance there need to be a publisher who demands something different from their authors. That or someone needs to start a new trend!
*
Hmmmm maybe I should start my own e-publishing company. *idea*
Lariss, I beg to differ
“The stories are about sex, smut, porn. Who cares how they get together. We want the hot stuff.”
*
I find that when there is no story, just sex sex and more sex on every conceiveable surface, it’s really boring. A short can be all sex. Anything 10K or more needs some semblance of plot. A whole novel of smut and more smut? BORING! “Here, let me tell you this story: Chapter one, the ship is peril, we must have sex. Chapter 2, we get the ship out of peril, let’s have celebratory sex. Chapters 3-12: there’s nothing to do on a long space flight, let’s have sex to break it up. ” Uh, yeah, that wasn’t a story.
*
My stuff runs about 20%-25% sex. It can go as low as 17% or as high as 28%. (I was shocked that a story that I thought had a lot of sex was 17%) You can even write m/m fiction without sex at all.
I’m glad I’m not the only reader who gets bored really quickly with a story where sex is meant to distract from a non-existent plot.
?
A lot of sex scenes seem to me like the instructions to one of those experimental science kits: “Fit round peg into round hole, agitate. Try different hole and/or different peg, agitate again (remember to add sounds). Repeat as necessary (adjusting angle and speed to taste) until desired result is achieved”.
?
I like 3D characters, real emotions, and a plot. In my book no amount of agitation *g* can hide a lack of all that.
?
“A cold night in Autumn, outside a college party, my heart pounding until I thought I was going to drop dead from fear and desire, I reached out and took Steven’s hand. And we stood there in the cold with our hands clasped and it was holiness and lust and wonder and it didn’t make the years of bullying worth it, but it…. placed the pain in a context where it was no longer unbearable.”
Stuart: I wish you wrote a book, not just great blog posts. A passage like is worth more than a dozen sex scenes.
?
Finally: a book which is liked by many readers despite a complete lack of explicit sex is “Tigers and Devils” by Sean Kennedy. Liked because it actually has a plot, making sex scenes very much an optional extra. Clearly not everybody reads m/m just for the “smut”.
I love hurt/comfort themes myself–but I don’t limit them to m/m. I’m also a big fan of them in het & menage. The last time I came down with a fever, I got to sleep in between running kids to soccer/dance/karate/oh-my, helping with homework, & cooking dinner… the idea of two committed people actually having time to NURTURE each other when one of them feels like shit? Damn… that’s hot. (And I too wonder where the 69 has gone. Writing them is a lot of fun…)
If an author writes mostly thrillers and adventure stories, his or her characters are going to find themselves in dangerous situations, and it follows that they’ll be injured.
*
Personally, I write from experience. Considering I’ve made two trips to the Emergency Room in the last two weeks, you can probably see why some of my characters spend half their time getting hurt.
*
But I think what you have to ask yourself in regards to the injuries in stories is; do they further the plot? Is it an injury or illness that’s just for the hell of it, or does it actually progress the story or conflict in some way? And I would have to disagree that the sole purpose in each of those books listed is “to get their couples together in situations where nurturing and physicality can turn to love and sex.”
*
As an author of more than one book on that list, that’s an oversimplification that’s almost insulting.
Stuart,
You said in an earlier post that you are not a writer. I have to agree with what liade said, you should write a book.
Yvette
If he did write an M/M romance I would volunteer to be a beta reader.
I totally hum. I have no idea if he liked it though. It’s more like when you hum when you taste something yummy. It just comes out.
I wish there was more 69 too. I’m just thrilled when I see rimming.
As to the h/c…yeah, that’s a big thing. But I’ve always felt it was just as big in m/f romance.
Hey, I hum when I eat! If it’s yummy, feels good or tastes good, I hum. And during sex….happy time!
Not sure if I remember writing someone humming, maybe, probably….
69- like someone said before, I sort of shortcircuit and go all uncoordinated…forget I’m supposed to be doing something… but I have written a scene or two.
Hurt/Nurture – well, since you pointed out one of my books – It Takes A Hero – which was about a marine who loses his leg in Iraq – that wasn’t so much about nuture/care as about building self-esteem and confidence.
Now, if you read Jackson’s Pride – THAT had hurt/nurture (lol!)- Jackson cuts Will down from being hung slowly for kissing a man behind a tavern – and Jackson spends time caring for Will. Then the role is reversed – Will tends Jackson. But, they were in the medievel times – it was rough and dirty and people were killed/injured a lot.
Men and emotion – yeah, some men can be real dunces about their own feelings, or expressing them, or acknowledging they have them at all.
Great questions Stuart! Thanks Wave!
Lynn
I’m really pleased to know that you hum. Is there usually a choir in the background?*g*
**
I threw in It Takes a Hero because I remembered that one of the protags was injured and permanently disabled, but I forgot about Jackson’s Pride, one of my favourite books. How could I forget about the hanging? Time for a re-read.:)
According to James Colton — I recently finished reading his entire body of work — they do indeed hum. Like happy bees.
*
I rarely take part in these discussions, not that they’re not amusing — and I do get that they’re designed to simply get people chatting — but there’s something troubling about watching aspiring writers indulging in this kind of seeking for One True Answer.
*
I’ve yet to see one of these questions pop up that plenty of people didn’t have varied and interesting experiences, and that plenty of gay male writers hadn’t written themselves. A lot of this seemingly puzzling stuff has to do with trends and fashions in romantic, erotic work. If you haven’t read that old classic ELEMENTS OF AROUSAL by Lars Eighner, I highly recommend it.
*
The other part of it has to do with romantic tropes. The successful writer takes romantic tropes and makes them his or her own. But to ignore them? Why on earth would you ignore something that readers clearly love?
*
If one thing history, anthropology, sociology, and psychology should have taught us, it’s that pople are different. If you gather 50 random people in a room and start delving into their sexual pasts and presents, you’re going to hear about a lot of things you personally have never experienced. And maybe didn’t want to know. *g*
*
It’s fun to bat these ideas around, but beneath the batting lies the erroneous notion that there would be one right way to write a heterosexual woman or a gay man. The ultimate argument being that there is one right way to BE a heterosexual woman or a gay man. It’s a dangerous line of reasoning because who gets to determine what is the proper way to be a heterosexual woman or a gay man? And what do we ultimately do with those who don’t conform to these standards?
*
Sure, I wrote a book on how to write m/m romance, and I guess some found it autocratic, but the gist of the book is that successful romance writing is about tapping into romantic fantasies, and to do that you need to know your audience. Trying to explain to your audience that their favorite fantasy isn’t how it happens in real life is kind of a no win position for a would-be romance writer.*g*
*
Anyway, I hear the siren song of deadlines. I’ll just leave it at this. Humans are different. One size does not fit all. The successful writer grasps this fact, embraces it, and creates memorable individuals rather than cardboard characters. It is the unique, individual character with all their quirks and flaws — and good points too — that wins the hearts and minds of readers. The writer who fails to get this, who feels locked into writing every character, every sex scene the same way, is doomed to writing the same old, same old — with predictable results.
Hi Josh
Nice to see you. *g*
**
As you figured out, these discussions are mainly a way to have fun and ‘chill’ at the end of the week and none of us really think that any writer will change his or her writing style or trope regardless.
***
There is one exception, however, that I hope writers will take note of and make changes in future books. Last week’s discussion was a little more serious because Stuart raised the issue that using “clean” in m/m books in asking about someone’s sero status was something that he and other gay men found offensive. I talked to Rick Reed (one of my “gay consultants”)*g* about this oft used terminology in m/m books, and he confirmed that the use of “clean” in this context is not a practice in the gay community and it’s considered insulting. So sometimes these “fun” discussions achieve a positive result, and help to clarify and remove stigmas and perceived insults that writers unknowingly include in their books.
**
I get mail all the time from gay men who have recently started reading m/m books and usually they have a question or two about the sub genre. Most of the time I can answer their inquiries, but in this particular case Stuart had so many that I thought it would be interesting and fun to post them and have the writers explain why they do what they do.
**
If this sub genre is going to expand and be credible in the gay community, one way of doing so is to appeal to gay readers, many of whom feel that they are being exploited and stigmatised as fuck machines. If m/m authors only want to maintain their mainly female readership, fair enough; they don’t have to listen to anyone else. However, we live in a world that’s increasingly diverse and I believe the more we communicate the better we will understand each other’s point of view.
**
I thought we all made the point yesterday that one size does not fit all and we are all unique. But if we don’t learn from each other then I think we live in a pretty sorry place. For example a few weeks ago Sean Kennedy, Jenre and I did a post about the way females were portrayed in m/m books. We wrote from different perspectives – Sean as a gay man from Oz, Jen as a Brit female and yours truly as a Canadian woman, but we had the same request – don’t demonize and insult women in these books. The authors were quite receptive to what we were saying and we had a lively discussion about perception vs reality.
**
I think poor Stuart is tired of the brickbats so I’m giving him a break for a while.
Wave quote: “If this sub genre is going to expand and be credible in the gay community, one way of doing so is to appeal to gay readers, many of whom feel that they are being exploited and stigmatised as fuck machines. If m/m authors only want to maintain their mainly female readership, fair enough; they don’t have to listen to anyone else.”
.
I suppose this is the point. Who are they being written for? If, as Josh says, M/Ms are about “tapping into romantic fantasies,” is absolute realism all that important? Is it even desirable?
Batboy
“I suppose this is the point. Who are they being written for? If, as Josh says, M/Ms are about “tapping into romantic fantasies,” is absolute realism all that important? Is it even desirable?”
**
Stuart has only recently started to read these books and he had a number of observations and questions. He also had a request which I considered to be quite reasonable, and that was, please do not use the word “clean” in the books in the context of asking about a gay man’s sero status, since this is insulting. I’m sure you can appreciate his perspective.
**
Even if these books are only “romantic fantasies” I still maintain that they should not insult anyone, especially the group of people on whom this sub genre is based. Many female M/M authors seem proud to have gay fans but if they want to keep them they may want to listen to some legitimate concerns of those same fans.
**
Whether or not the books are written primarily for women, I don’t believe that the authors want to deliberately insult gay males. Now that they understand the implications of the word I hope that it will disappear, just like the tying off of condoms:)
I for one don’t believe in targeting books at a particular subset of readers (other than by subject matter.) That assumes huge generalizations about ‘what women want’ and ‘what men are really like’ that I don’t buy into for a moment.
I’m all for realism, with the caveat that people are all individuals, so what looks realistic to one may look less so to another. (I find it hard to believe that anyone could enjoy giving head, but it seems to me that the evidence there is against me.)
But I’ve been fighting being put into an ill fitting box all my life. I’m certainly not going to start writing fiction that aims to fit into boxes. My hope is that certain experiences are universal to all human beings (falling in love, work, fear, anger, loneliness etc etc.) Those are the things I’m interested in writing about.
Alex
You might be surprised at how many M/M writers say that they target their books at women readers who are, admittedly, the largest fan base for M/M. For example, when Evangeline Anderson asked me to run a poll on what women want in M/M books I refused and said that my site was for both male and female readers of the genre and I revised the questions. She subsequently said in the post that she was quite pleasantly surprised at the responses from the men who answered some of her questions. So targetng does happen, and frequently!
**
However, I’m very happy to learn that your books are not written with a specific gender in mind (but then I didn’t think so)*g*
**
The issue here is regardless of which group M/M authors regard as their main fan base, since this sub genre is all about gay men in romantic relationships, it’s important to get a few things right about these men. “Clean” in this context appears to have very negative connotations for gay men. It’s similar to someone writing about the “black experience” and including every racial negative stereotype about blacks in the book. I would have a problem with that and would certainly say so.
Am I too late to say that Craig & Paul indulge in a No 69 in The Bones of Summer? Can’t remember now whether that’s a good or bad thing! – and it’s so nearly on p69 itself. Which would have been rather too scary for words really …
I must also admit to having a torture/comfort scene in Maloney’s Law, but the comfort’s fairly brief.
🙂
Anne B
xxx
Anne
I should have remembered and passed that information on to Stuart.:)
**
From my recollection, the comfort scene in Maloney’s Law may have been brief but I don’t think the torture scene was. *g*
So…is a simple fist fight passe?
Does one have to be shot?
Sigh….just a bloody nose will sometimes make the point, won’t it?
Yvette
I think fist fights are still acceptable. Sometimes shootings are so final, aren’t they? A bloody nose might work as long as you don’t break it and definitely don’t break his penis – that’s a no no.*g*
So, inquiring minds want to know. If “I’m clean” is out, what would be an un-insulting way of saying “I’m not carrying any kind of sexually transmitted disease”? Or is the reassurance insulting no matter what language it’s made in? (I ask because if I was going with a stranger for the first time, it would be the sort of thing I would ask them about, and I would voluntarily reassure them of my own status. At least one of my characters is as cautious as I am!)
I thought the terminology was poz or non-poz but that might be only in certain geographic locations?
Yes, it’s difficult to know, with slang terms, because the contemporary I’m doing is set in Britain, and I don’t know if they’d be the same this side of the Atlantic. I may have to make something up, as Batboy says 🙂
“what would be an un-insulting way of saying “I’m not carrying any kind of sexually transmitted disease”?”
Negative or HIV Negative. Or STD-Free. Or Bug-Free. Or be creative make up your own phrase. You’re the writer.
.
“Or is the reassurance insulting no matter what language it’s made in? ”
No.
Alex
I’m also wondering what terminology is used in het books? Probably the same wording is used (clean) except perhaps not as frequently.
Het books are certainly a law of their own, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all. It’s certainly the word I would have automatically used had you not said that it was wrong.
Thanks for the info, Batboy, that’s very useful to know. Thank you.
I believe that Rick Reed said that the terminology used in the gay community is poz or neg, or if you’re online – DDF (drug and disease free).