I’m not a size queen when it comes to cocks. I understand why much gay erotica and romance has men with average or more than average inches in their boxers and breeches but when it comes to real life, I know that it really is what you do, not so much what size you are.
But when it comes to books, I’m a bit different.
I love a BIG book. There’s nothing that makes me happer to buy a book that’s as wide as it is tall – perhaps it’s because I’m parsimonious and like value for money or something but if I’m lying in bed reading and in danger of being concussed if the book lands on my face then that’s fine by me. I read a book recently where one of the protagonist’s cocks was so wide at the base his lover couldn’t get BOTH HANDS around it. This was seriously scary, unnatural and wrong. However, translate that to the size and width of a book and I couldn’t be happier!
But what I see in gay fiction/romance – pretty much everywhere – is “the slim volume” and I’m rather interested to know why that is. I know that many publishers say that 100,000 is the maximum size they want from a new to them novelist, but even that size book is pretty much unusual in this genre. I have scads of books waiting for review and they are about 100 pages or so – perhaps going up to 150 if I’m lucky. To get my hands on a book of 300 pages is pretty much a rarity.
What’s the reason for this? Is it the publishers? Do they ask for a maximum length of (perhaps) 75K?
I love some meat to my plot. Something where the plot is as important as the burgeoning romance going on in the pages, and for me that takes time, and pages.
So many books I read the romance IS the plot, so perhaps that is why, it’s pretty difficult to spin out a will-they-won’t-they (even though we know they will) for more than 50k. I don’t know.
Don’t get me wrong, there are many “little gems” written by people who know how to shove a quart into a pint pot beautifully–Charlie Cochrane’s novellas come immediately to mind, they have intricate plotty mysteries as well as romance–but sometimes it’s all about the romance and nothing else, and as we all know that Romance=HEA there’s nothing much else to occupy the mind.
The spur to this came to me yesterday as I was reading Dash and Dingo: Search for the Tasmanian Tiger which is over 300 pages and I am enjoying the adventure so much I realised I want more like that!
I’m as guilty as anyone else, as my own novellas outnumber my published novels. It is true that a novella is an easier sell – or that’s been my experience, and often a publisher will approach me and ask me for a 30k piece of work, and being a gal who can’t say No, I don’t. A novel takes a lot more commitment in time, blood sweat and tears, and I can understand the draw of getting several books out in print in one calendar year.
Is it a product of the MTV generation? ADHD? Do people prefer shorter stories so they can read and forget ’em in an hour?
“Normal size” be damned!!! Where are the sagas? The Epics? The Gone With The Winds, the George RR Martins, the James Mitcheners of the gay romance world? Is anyone writing the first 500 page epic? Would it ever get published?
Is it because it’s a new genre and we aren’t there yet?
Thoughts? Do you have a preference?
Ummm, I’m still deeply disturbed by that image of the size of that’s guys lovestick. Of course I put my hands in that position and probably the other guy’s hands are way bigger than mine. OMG, that’s mutant, not sexy. Are you sure one of the protags wasn’t a horse?
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I confess to being fickle. I am sometimes totally in the mood for a bunch of shorts -10-30 pages – and sometimes I’m in the mood for a longer more involved read. I don’t necessarily forget a short right after I read it. Just last night I was laying in bed thinking about the characters in a 17 page short I read this week. They really stuck in my head. I’ve read books of 100+ pages and can’t remember the names of the protags a day later. So it varies.
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I think maybe I don’t care for long books very often because I don’t like to take breaks when I read. I don’t want to take 3 days to read a book if I’m enjoying it. I want to read it all and read it all NOW. If I can pick up and put down a book innumerable times it means it likely hasn’t captured my imagination. I can rarely devote the time to sit and read 300 pages non-stop. That doesn’t mean I avoid them, but I don’t really seek them out either.
I do find it hard to put a good book down, but then again, in the case of wonderful stories with meat and plot like False Colors, I don’t want them to end, either. One little book which so deserved to be an 800 page epic was Wicked Gentlemen, I’ve told Ms Hale that more than once!
Erastes
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Before I comment on your post I must say how much I love your turn of phrase and the words you use which are so typically “British”. For example, the word “parsimonious.” I don’t believe that anyone other than Brits use that word:-D Here’s a phrase that made me laugh out loud “people who know how to shove a quart into a pint pot beautifully”. 😀
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Now to the post. I do admit that for me time is of the essence and I very rarely read a book that’s over 300 pages. For reviewing purposes 150 – 200 pages is ideal because I can read and review more books than I would be able to if all the books I reviewed were 400+ pages. I have yet to crack open The Catch Trap because, at 589 pages, this book requires an enormous investment of my time. I know that it’s a wonderful book but it’s not availabe in ebook, unless one has a Kindle I suppose, and the small print makes it difficult to read. Another minus for those of us who have trouble with our eyes.
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By the way I like the guy in his underwear. I wonder if I could get his telephone number.:-D
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The other problem I have with BIG books is the possibility that I will be disappointed with the ending after all of that time invested.
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I once asked a publisher about the size issue (the books, that is) 😀 and he said that the cost for printing the larger books is often prohibitive because they can only charge so much to make it viable to the potential purchaser. Apparently they are charged for print runs based on the number of pages and if the cost gets too high then it’s not worth it. A good example is Bareback where the publisher made the decision ( I was told) to cut 10,000 words from the ebook when it went to print because of cost, and the fear that people may not have wanted to buy the book if the price were too high. Even so the book is still 371 pages and lists for $16 new. In addition, in these days of POD printing there are no economies of scale in terms of doing a print run of 100 books and thus cutting down on the unit cost.
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So it seems that there many issues around the sizes of books, and I think you might be in the minority here in terms of your preference for BIG BOOKS.:-D
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BTW I’m so glad that you like Dash and Dingo – it’s one of my new favourite adventures.
I know, I’m too English. 🙂 I keep telling Charlie to put me in her books, but she refuses to write menage.
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Oh – the Catch Trap is big is it? I’ll definitely have to treat myself with that!
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I’m shocked about Bareback, I’d be decidedly Contract Breaky if anyone tried that with me. I was asked once to take out 10,000 words of Standish the first time I nearly sold it, and I found it impossible to do without breaking the plotline.
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Dash and Dingo are such fun, and my hat’s off to Sean and Catt and I look forward to more of the boys.
Re Bareback, this was probably the first print book by Torquere (2003) and the author was completely in agreement because it was either reduce it or no print version at all.
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Here’s what Chris Owen said when I reviewed Bareback and there was a discussion on the blog about the size of the ebook compared to the print book
“TP didn’t lop out 10K words to save money. I edited the words out in order to bring the book to a size which was able to go to print. Printing cost is by the page and Bareback was 114 thousand words — very long. It was a matter of “If it’s going to be printed at all it must be shorter” not “We’d like it shorter to save money.”
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So – size (and cost) – definitely considerations for print books, particularly in today’s economy.
It worries me that anyone would think 114k was “very long” though, really. To me that’s just slightly smaller than normal.
Yes, but the rest of “if it’s going to be printed at all it must be shorter,” IS “it would cost too much to print the full story.”
As a reader, I’d pay another $1-2 to get the rest of the story. I’d be really peeved if I’d read an e-book, decided it was a keeper and I wanted it in print, and found out it had been decimated.
Darn it, Wave, you had me all excited for a minute there that The Catch Trap was available on Kindle. I just checked, and, sadly, it’s not.
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Erastes, I prefer longer books as well. Looking through my favorite m/m books, most of them are 250 pages or more. When I read novellas, I’m often left thinking, “Well, that was good, but it could’ve been so much better if this or that were expanded upon.” I like a good plot in my romance books, I like the relationship to build slowly or go through various ups and downs, and I like really getting to know the characters, and I think that’s often best accomplished in a longer work. It’s for those reasons that I tend to like series books as well (like Lessons in Love, Adrien English, PsyCop), though with a series, I tend to get impatient waiting for the next book.
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Shorts are not my thing at all, and I very rarely buy them unless it’s an author I love, or it has been highly recommended by a reviewer whose opinion I trust.
It’s interesting – are there any other genres that have these shorts – you know the 50 page shorts? Or is it because most m/m writers come from fandom?
“It’s interesting – are there any other genres that have these shorts – you know the 50 page shorts?”
I think the part where novellas and short stories are much more visible as stand alone works has more to do with the publication *method* than the genre.
I love short stories in all genres, and in print it’s basically anthology or bust, especially as the number of magazines tumbles. I personally prefer single-author collections, but the number of publishers willing to take a punt on a print run of a collection of short stories from a new author are pretty small.
E-publishing is just so much more flexible than print, and I’ve seen a lot of stand-alone-shorts from e-publishers in many genres over the last few years, not just queer romance.
I wonder if the format of reading electronically works against epic novels – although that’s not an argument for, say, Gay Mens Press who are print-only and always have been, and still tend towards the slighter end of the paperback scale.
Thanks! That’s very interesting, Alex, I thought that GMP had closed down in 2006 – do you have their new website?
Sorry Nichem. However, I’m sure it will be available soon on the Kindle – eventually every book in the world will be.:)
I think my ideal book is about 300-350 pages. If I’ve got the usual amount of time I get to spend on reading, that’ll take me two or three days to read and I’ll feel like it’s something I’ve really been able to get my teeth into, rather than flitting by too quick.
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I think like you say, it depends on the kind of story. If’s it’s pure romance, that is it’s entirely about the development of the relationship, well it can feel dragged out over a longer book. There’s only so many romantic complications a writer can throw in before the reader begins to think “maybe these people aren’t meant to be together” or just that’s it’s way too melodramatic.
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If it’s historical, mystery, sci-fi paranormal, whatever and the romance is interwoven with another plot, that demands more time to give both of those space to develop, and to get in a sense of the setting and the configuration of world they inhabit.
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That said, I’m quite happy to read novellas too, just as long as they don’t feel like cut-down novels. The novella is its own kind of animal that requires a different approach. I get especially sad when I think that the story was written as a novel then chopped down to novella size. Unless there was a handy subplot say that can be totally taken out without affecting the A plot, then that’s usually going to be detrimental to a story.
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Really, really long books? Well, I’m planning on reading War and Peace next year (hey, it’s historical romance isn’t it?) and that’s going to be a time committment of a couple of weeks at the least, and I’ve read Lord of the Rings a couple of times, but mostly really long books sort of put me off unless I’ve really got a lot of time on my hands coming up. (I need to sprain my ankle again. I read about ten books while I was in plaster for a week! :D)
I’m with you JFM ! 350 would be the best kind of book. I think it’s the whole “wah I have to go to sleep now, and I don’t wanna!” thing coming out.
I’ve lost more sleep that way than I dare contemplate.
Oh and in the spirit of contradicting myself, I’m about to read Breakfast at Tiffany’s, which is tiny! 😀
While I’m quite happy to read books of all sizes I will admit to being a size queen. I LOVE big books. When I started reading M/M I was shocked to find most books at 75-150 pages (and a lot with even less pages) when I was used to reading het at around 250-350 pages.
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I love when I find big books.
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Dash and Dingo is awesome as is Tigers & Devils.
Hi Lily! You’re a gal after my heart. Hands off me books! Mine!
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I don’t mind the shorts, as a quick read, but I don’t like paying for just one – I wish they were put into an anthology, so I had more than one to read at a time! I know there are really cheap, but it “forces” me to read ebooks, which I don’t like to do, not having a reader, and won’t until they are £15 and waterproof. Roll on 2020…
I’ve had rejections based on book length, and have come across publishers I could not submit work to because I went over their upper word limit. I think the cost of publication plays a huge part in why slim volumes are so popular.
My own publisher advises me to keep it around 70 thousand words (which seems short to me, since I’m so used to writing long). And that’s entirely reasonable, because there aren’t a lot of people who want to spend sixteen dollars on a paperback.
My first m/m novel was 144,000 words (190,000 word first draft (g)) and never made print. Nor did it do well in e-book form, and I did get comments in a few reviews such as “don’t let the length scare you away” and that kind of thing. It left me with the impression that readers who love long books are in the minority. But I still don’t seem to be able to write ’em short.
I prefer long books, myself, as they give me time to fall heart and soul into the world and time to know the characters. I want to be drawn in, allowed to roam, and taken over in such a way that I forget there’s a world beyond the one between the pages.
Really well-written novellas only make me wish they were longer. 😀
I don’t read shorts at all, unless they’re written by a friend.
Hi Mara – “Don’t let the length scare you?” Sheesh. I despair, really I do. (I’m managing to keep the smutty comments in check, please note!!) 🙂
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I suppose part of it is that people have been used to reading Mills & Boon which are only about 50k I believe, but I was raised on normal sized stuff, and the bigger the better!!
The Mills & Boon it depends on the series. The various contemporary ones are the shorter ones, but the historicals seem to be mostly around 300 pages. Not sure about the “Intrigue” series or the “Medical” series ones. I’d bet the Intrigue are longer, like historicals, because like I speculated, more story alongside the romance.
I commend you on your restraint. 😀
Mills & Boon are all romances, aren’t they? I’ve read two, maybe three category romances in my whole life. Not enough meat in them (no smut intended(g)). I’m not sure if the Scott and Scott romances created an explosion of similar books in the category romance style, but it seems a very popular form in m/m romance now. I do like to see the mix of genres that are coming out, where m/m and romance are part of a fantasy, sf, adventure, thriller, and so on. I think m/m is spreading out in all different and interesting directions and it’s wonderful to see.
Length differs, actually, depending on size of book. A 350 page mass-market paperback is about 80K (if Brian Keene is to be believed). The average Harlequin goes 65K words, but is about 250 pages. In trade paperback or e-book, that’s about 150 pages.
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I’m a short story reader. It takes a lot for me to commit to reading a novel, and even then I tend to read it in short bursts, because that’s the time I have. I’ll pick up an anthology over Gone With The Wind any day. Now, when I was younger, before kids, before fulltime work and before writing of my own, I read GwtW over and over. (my copy is proofedited and cross-referenced to my copy of The Empire Strikes Back. I am a geek and the Han/Leia dialogue is totally cribbed)
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I try to read 50 books a year. They aren’t 500 pagers.
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When I write, I use as many words as I think I need to tell the story. My editor usually thinks it needs to be longer.
“Length differs, actually, depending on size of book. A 350 page mass-market paperback is about 80K (if Brian Keene is to be believed).” (how does one do formatting in comments???) my html doesn’t work…
Don’t know who Brian Keene is, but Transgressions (mass market paperback) is 120k words and 384 pages, and Standish is 90k words and 224 pages – so I don’t think he can be right about that.
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I read over 100 books (I’m on 110 for this year alone) and most of those are BIG fantasy sagas, I read fast.
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I don’t ever write to order, I just get to the end of the story and add up the words!
Erastes,
No one can say X amount of words equals x amount of pages. It is all dependent upon layout. Standish is a very tight layout with way more lines sqeezed onto each page than normal. I’m sure PD Publishing did this to cut costs. With a looser layout Standish would more likely have been around 275 pages. The Filly is 67,000 words and is also 220 pages.
The real reason publishers (like myself) prefer to publish shorter novels, is because of POD costs. In order to publish a print-on-demand book of 500 pages we would have to set the retail price at $22-$25 in order to make a profit. No one wants to pay that much for a paperback.
Mark
See, here in Australia, that’s how much we pay for books all the time (and it’s usually more than that). It’s the reason I now buy nearly all my books from The Book Depository, or occasionally from Amazon.com. Even with the postage, they’re usually much cheaper than buying from the local book stores.
I usually prefer long books. If I am enjoying the story I don’t want it to end. Longer books also give you more time to get to know the characters in depth.I think it is a shame if authors are forced to cut unnecessarily words to reach some limit.
The longest m/m books I have read are W. A. Hoffman’s “Raised by Wolves” Series. Which are also just all around great.
Good call, Tara, I forgot the Wolves’ series – they are all big fat books! I certainly don’t mind paying $16 for a larger book.
In general I like big books. Over 350 pages paperbacks are ideal for reading in the train.
Also I like my e-books longer. Then again, Jet Mykles last one Just for you is 150 pages. That is just enough to read in one evening during weekdays. If I remember well I read F&F in one go too the first time but that was on a saturday evening *g*.
Hi Ingrid, I simply can’t concentrate to read ebooks for long – that’s part of the problem, 30 or so pages and I’m done!
I prefer long print books and short e-books. E-books jump around (they don’t scroll easily, so I’m always losing my place), they eat up a lot of space on a hard drive, they promote eyestrain, and they aren’t portable (at least, they aren’t if you don’t have an e-book reader, and those things are so tiny that the print would give me a migraine). Also, they’re hard to pick up when you leave off. A print book can be picked up in the middle–an e-book demands lots of scrolling and fussing to get back to where you were when you stopped reading. I’ve even read e-books that crashed my computer almost as soon as I opened them.
For these reasons, I loathe e-books. And I prefer them to be as short as possible so that I can get the reading over with in a hurry.
Print books, on the other hand, are a pleasure, and I want them to be large and fat and long-lasting. Low-tech books are nice and simple. You can carry them anywhere without fearing that you will wipe out your whole library if the book suffers an accident. You can get them in large print. You can start in the middle or at the end. The pages do not jump around when you turn them.
Give me lovely fat books in print any day of the week.
Hi Tracey – agree with every single word!
🙂
Tracey
I have the opposite experience with ebooks. One of the reasons I love .lit (Microsoft Reader) is that whenever I open a book – a month, a week or even a year later I’m taken back to the last page I was reading. The other reason I love ebooks (sometimes I have both ebook and print version of the same book) is that I can make the print bigger. If you have probelms with your eyes as I do, that’s a major plus. Very few of the books I buy come in large print, and when they do, they cost more.
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I have a large monitor (24 inches) so I can make the print as big as I want and it doesn’t wobble (at least not in my experience). I keep a lot of my books on a flash drive – they are very inexpensive – and that doesn’t interfere with my main hard drive.
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Print books on the other hand take up a lot of storage space in my apartment and every so often I have to purge, even though my apartment is fairly big. I decided a few years ago to limit myself to 2 bookshelves and I refuse to buy any more because that would only encourage me to buy more print books. The best part? Ebooks are less expensive and you can get them immediately.
Hi Tracey. I have a Sony eReader — which I love muchly — and the font can be adjusted from the default size in the doc (at Small) to XXL four steps up, which is huge (like five words on the screen huge). There should be no reason for teeny tiny print. Plus, it does keep your place for as long as you have that book on your device. Go to read something else, return to the book a year later, it’s still in the same place. I also love having almost 200 books on it, so I can read anything in my collection housed in a relatively slim and lightweight package just with a few presses of the button. Just saying… 🙂
Hi Aunt Lynn,
I know that there are benefits of ereaders (I wish i’d had one when I backpacked around the globe years ago,but they hadn’t been invented) but there are also many reasons why people resist them. Price being the main concern. I don’t want the thread to get off topic, because I know the whole paper vs digital has been done to death, but linked to the price/fragility aspect of the argument is insurance–If I have a fire, I could claim for all the thousands of books in my house (if I could possibly remember them) but if I have 200 books on my reader, drop it in the bath, then I’m not insured for that, and that’s a lot of money to lose. I know that Fictionwise does lifetime downloads, but most other places don’t, as far as I can see. I also resent the fact that Kindle can take books back from you at any time!!!
One last note about eReaders, then I promise to leave it be. 🙂 With the Sony, all of my hundreds of books are downloaded on two different computers and on a backup drive in PDF format, so I have no concerns about losing my books. If my device got ruined, I could — at some point — purchase another reader and reinstall the collection. And yes, I completely agree that the cost is very prohibitive right now, though I anticipate it coming down in price. Now back to the fab topic of long vs shorter books
Tracey, I tend to agree with you. I prefer shorter e-books, because I usually print them out, and it’s quite daunting printing out a huge tome.
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I can see that e-book readers will be the thing of the future, but at the moment, the price and availability isn’t encouraging for the “average” reader, plus the fact that books can be removed at the seller’s whim is a concern.
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Back to the original post … Erastes, I’m with you, I love long stories. I loved the Wolves’ Books, (and The Catch Trap, and the Wraeththu series) and even though it’s hard to stop reading to catch up with Real Life (and sleep) it’s really good to know that there’s more story waiting when I find the time to pick the book up again.
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Short novellas are okay too, but if I love the characters and plot of a story, it can go on and on as far as I’m concerned.
Hi Gaycrow – nice to see you over here! And yes, the whole “losing yourself in a saga” is part of the attraction and having to force yourself back into the real world.
I can’t agree with the space argument. Due to the lack of pages most ebooks (pdf in my case) are less than 1mb in size.
To date I have about 0,5 gb in books, that are about 550 files (incl some doubles).
That means I have 171 GB left for books. That are a whole a lot books!!
I need to buy thewhole appt block to able to store them all in paper 🙂
Yes! Finally! Thank you! I’ve been pissed about this for quite some time now and I don’t get it. When I first started reading there were many ebooks that were between 250 and 350 pages. Granted some had bigger fonts, but still!
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To me it almost seems like an excuse to release more books and maybe make it easier on authors.
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It also is very hard to have a decent plot with so few pages.
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Great post E!!!
Thank you, Larissa, I’m glad you enjoyed it.
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It’s been said that books are smaller because of cost, but I can’t agree – because the books I was meaning are “e-book only” and I would say that there’s no many fewer cost considerations other than editing etc. It certainly shouldn’t be on a page basis – I don’t really call anything 80 pages long a “book” – it’s usually little more than a PWP.
Brian Keene is a fairly prolific horror author and big in the zombie field at the moment. He says he likes his books about 80K. In the four of his I have, this translates to about 320 mass market pages.
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On the other hand, it only translates to about 215 trade paperback pages. (which is how my 80K piece will be released)
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I used to read very quickly. I’ve slowed down and I don’t have the time to devote to it. Hence the 50 book project.
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I love my e-book reader. The screen is the size of a paperback and I can enlarge the text as I need to. It’s what got me reading again. But, I’m slow. I’m still working my way through QUEER DIMENSIONS and ELLORA’S CAVEMEN, which came out last month.
Writing substantial novels requires the luxury of time. I desperately wish I had it. But one brutal fact of e-publishing is that the more work you put out, the more money you make.
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Most e-books have an extremely limited “shelf life.” If a writer doesn’t put material before the public on a regular basis — at least a short or a novella every few months — that writer’s income will take a serious nosedive.
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This isn’t true for everybody, of course. Top-tier authors can usually coast along on their backlists between releases. For most of us, though, it’s a constant scramble.
Hi KZ – hmm – I’m not sure how I feel about authors pumping out work just to make money – i know that’s an unpopular and “snobby” view and believe me I am the epitome of starving author in garret!! I’d like to make money, but don’t think I could do the whole churning out thing. Plus, ebooks don’t sell as well. Mine certainly don’t. 1 percent of sales, so far, compared with paper books.
Good post. I am in agreement with several others here that it depends on my mood as to what I read. Sometimes I just want a quick peek into a pair, and sometimes these are really well done for the length. If I had to pick though, I would say that I prefer longer books between 300 and 400 pages so I can get a really, really good understanding of the characters and submerge myself in an excellent story (if the author has done his/her job, that is). Cut & Run, one of my faves, is 380 pages, and others have mentioned Dash & Dingo (310) and Tigers & Devils (376) and I am sure I am forgetting others (I’m not where my books are, so I can’t be sure).
Hi ,
My opinion it’s strictly from the reader point of view because I don’t write but I read a lot ( I mean a LOT as in all the time I don’t work) – and in the last year I read almost exclusively M/M romance. And … I love big books for the same reasons presented: because I want plot (and a good one at that), because in life things seldom happen quickly ( and when they are, then they generally don’t go in the right direction). I want exactly what Erastes said “some meat to my plot”, because in that way everything becomes more credible – real people have some psychological baggage on which are based their decisions, and I want to know what it is, not always the whole story, but sometimes I want more than a guess. And I really really hate when at the end of a story I loved I feel like I’m the only one forgotten on a threshold while the people I loved disappear in the distance without me ever knowing “what happened next” – a reason for why I read sequels, and series.
That being said, I really love the discussion on this site and the way you all think and write.
Hi Lacri
Glad to have you here! I do agree – and the thing that I often find myself doing with reviews is saying “I would love to know more about these characters.” I’ve just finished “Convincing Arthur” by Ava March which was 80 or so pages, and the author spent a lot of time explaining that these characters had a history and that ten years before one of the characters chose another man over the main protag – and I’m thinking “well why can’t we SEE that??” I don’t buy these books for the sex- although I’m sure some people do. I want story first, sex second and the sex should become PART of the plot, and not the only thing that makes the plot up.
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Thank you for commenting!
Hi Erastes,
thank you for answering me ! I love how very insightful you presented your point and I wanted to bring my two pence in it, although I can do nothing to change things, just to hope that your editors and you writers who write M/M books will have a chance to write books as long as you feel that the subject require.
In fact, I read the books of a lot of you who write/ comment here and I’ll keep read them because you are great writers, even when I think that the story was finished too soon …
Thanks for the shout-out, Erastes, and I’m really happy you liked “Dash and Dingo!”
I think the truth is you can never make anyone happy when it comes to length. For the amount of reviews that I have had for Tigers and Devils praising its length (140 000 words), I’ve also had some pointing it out as if it is a negative thing.
Of course you can take it entirely the other way as well. I’m reading “Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell” at the moment and although I’m enjoying it and love the fact that it’s 800 pages, I’m also thinking, ‘sheesh they could have cut some of it out quite safely’. I guess it all depends on the ‘feel’ of the novel, because I’ve never begrudged the same thing of “Les Miserables” or “Lorna Doone”.
Hi Sean,
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Yes, I did, watch Speak Its Name tomorrow for the review!
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I agree, it’s the feel of a book that helps or hinders the length. Someone mentioned the Raised by Wolves series here, which is self-published and frankly, it shows – my red pen was itching the whole way through the book for all the bloated unnecessary stuff, and if it had been professionally published it would have been cut down. It still would have been a larger-than-normal book, but it would have been less rambly, imho.
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Same with strange and norell, too, I have to say, even though that was professionally produced!!
Hi Sean,
I read your book Tigers & Devils and I’m among those who didn’t think that it was too long :)) In fact when I finished it I wanted to know more about the life of Simon and Declan, but maybe this is just me – I really can’t let go sometimes.
Please, keep writing long books. I have Dash and Dingo to read next so, for the moment, I think I’m ok. :))
I completely agree with you on the issue of size, for the books and the cocks. *lol*
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I’ve actually been pondering the same thing lately as I buy both m/m and m/f books. It saddens me that the m/m books go by so fast but the m/f books will take me twice as long. I read both at the same speed, but my m/m collection is filled with books half the size, sometimes even a third or fourth the size of my m/f books.
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It feels like just when things are getting good and picking up speed, the story ends. It makes me buy more m/m books then m/f books but that’s the silver lining in my disappointment over the small size of my m/m books.
Hi Shavie – thanks for commenting!
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I hope it’s a trend that changes in the future, and hope it’s just a symptom of a baby-genre, taking its first steps, because I want more big ones!
I absolutely adore long books, but from the perspective of a writer, I have one publisher that says books must be between 50 and 90K words to even be CONSIDERED for print.
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Does falling within this range mean you’ll BE in print? No. But if your book is longer than 90K words, it’s out of the running.
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It all comes down to cost for the print books, as many people have already said. And yes, it sucks, but what’s an author to do when his/her book is under contract with a publisher and it’s the publisher’s call whether to make a book available in print or not?
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In most cases, print rights revert to the author at some point and they can then choose to self-publish in print or electronic format, but it’s sort of crappy because the book they’ve got the rights back on has been out electronically for X-number of years.
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I’m not saying the publisher limits are why there aren’t longer books, especially in print, but it might have something to do with it. *slight smile*
~Tis
Hi TC!
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Oh I’m quite sure that it’s cost related when it comes to print, charging by the page, but I don’t get it when it comes to ebooks. I really don’t like reading something of 80 pages because there’s not the time to get invested in the characters, and usually its got two sex scenes in it at least, and it’s just a wank book. Not always, mind you, some people, such as Perhelion have the gift of writing a true short story, but many others simply don’t.
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I suppose I do tend to write around the 100k mark, but that’s usually coincidence, the book is a long as it needs to be, and my novels have ranged from 70k to 135k – I’d be gutted if Running Press suddenly said “delete 30k words.” – it simply couldn’t be done!
I like big books too. I don’t want to be able to finish a book in a day. Ideally I’d like to have it last me a week or more, so that for a week I have more of it to look forward to. I like it to be more like a holiday than like a meal.
Hi – I hope it’s okay to pop in, since I haven’t posted here before (I’ve lurked for quite some time though;) ).
You certainly bring up a very interesting topic. I haven’t really read that many m/m books — most notably, your Standish and Lee Rowan’s Ransom, both of which were wonderful:) — but one “magnum opus” of the genre that comes to mind is Ai No Kusabi by Rieko Yoshihara, originally published in 1986/87. Unfortunately, it is not very well-known because it was not officially translated into English (there is a fan translation online, though), plus it came out more than 20 years ago when the genre was less popular than it is today (before slash fanfiction took over the Internet, I suppose ;-).
AnK is perhaps best known thanks to the 1992 anime of the same name. The anime itself, while definitely making the story immensely popular, can also act as a sort of double curse. Some of the more “serious” readers would perhaps be sqicked by the anime factor and would not be willing to give the novel a chance. (I’m not an anime fan myself, but I still found the written work breath-taking). A lot of the anime fans, on the other hand, do not even know it was based on an actual BOOK. They assume it was originally some manga – but it was NOT.
The novel itself is currently being re-written by Yoshihara, re-edited and translated for the English-language audience. It was also split into separate smaller volumes because it was so long. There are already 6 volumes out – each about 170-180 pages long – with a few more to come out. I would definitely call the combined output a BIG book. I have some issues with the novel – the author’s style, in particular – but I would highly recommend it because of the excellent story and character development. It’s a futuristic dystopia revolving around an unrequited Romeo-and-Juliet-type love story – only both protagonists are male.:) I know this sounds weird, but I find it very hard to pigeonhole its exact genre. I suppose “sci-fi” would be just as accurate, only it’s much more than that. It’s not an easy read, though, and may even repel some people, because it gets quite graphic in terms of both sex and violence, so be warned.
But anyway. I totally agree with you that a book’s size matters. Sometimes I’m just in the mood to pick up a heavy volume – Steinbeck’s East of Eden – for example – is one of my top favourites of all time – I’m always re-reading it – rather than a shorter novel I could devour in a matter of hours. On the other hand, one of the BIGGEST books I’ve ever read – both in the homoerotic genre, and in literature as a whole – is Death in Venice by Thomas Mann – which is only 100 pages or so. A true classic. So often great things DO come in small packages.
Anyway. Sorry for the long post, and please excuse any spelling/grammar errors – I’m not a native speaker. Cheers!:)
Hi Saskia,
you made me very curious about the book you described and I searched after it. It was released only in print, or is that I haven’t enough patience to search more? I found the book on Amazon, but sincerely, I prefer e-books because I could have them in matter of minutes and not wait about a month to read them. And I already have too much books at home and not enough space, sadly.
Nah, unfortunately it was not released as e-book. I find e-books much easier to read (since I’m on my computer all day long and can read while, say, working or just goofing around). I think the only version of the book is the paperback edition, and it is somewhat difficult to find as well. The first volume, for example, was out of stock last time I checked on Amazon UK…
I think there are fan scanlations of the pages, though, but only of the first three volumes, as far as I know…
Thanks, Saskia, that book sounds fabulous! And I quite agree with Death in Venice too. I feel the same way about some slim volumes – it IS possible to write a big book in a 100 pages, but sadly, not many people can manage it. (me included)
Hehe, I’m glad you liked my short description of AnK 🙂 I’ve meant to write a review on the book for some time, maybe I’ll get down to it tonight. I can send you a link on LJ to check it out when I’m done, if you’re interested. 🙂
I also like a big, meaty book I can get my teeth into. I like my characters well-developed with deep plots and several subplots, and something going on besides will they or won’t they.
The draft of the m/m novel I’m writing now is 75,000 words. I hope length alone won’t keep it from being published.
Good luck with the book Ammonite7 – that’s a good length for a first time book, btw – most publishers want exactly that length. Keep us posted!
Where are the longer books? YOU’RE WRITING THEM! Sorry, that’s no help, is it?
Something about your title set off an earworm, and I now have AC/DC’s “I’ve Got Big Balls” playing in my head. And I only know the chorus. Argh.
I don’t really have any preference re: length–it’s all in how well the deed is done. A story is as long as it has to be, and if I finish a book in one sitting, I may go back and re-read it.
I do think I’d rather read one that was a little overinflated than one truncated by a publisher–Alex’s ‘Captain’s Surrender’ comes to mind–but I’ve also run across tomes where a writer felt the need to put Every Single Bit of research into the book, and that’s deadly.
Ransom was 90K and I think it was the longest thing LBR ever did–they reduced the word count to 70 max for later books, I think for cost-effectiveness and uniform size, but there wasn’t as much info to be introduced, so for me that worked well enough. If it’s any consolation, Home is the Sailor should be longer. If I can ever get the damned thing finished.
🙁 No. Not helpful at all!! 🙂 I can’t read my own stuff, it goes from the author’s copy package onto the shelf and there it stays. I want someone else to satisfy my longing for a 800 page epic. “The Steel Remains” does this, with 352 hardback pages, but that’s fantasy.
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Quite agree that a book is as long as it needs to be, I don’t consider length in advance when I’m writing something (unless it’s something for a specific submission call) for novels, they just come out how they are. I also agree with you about Captain’s Surrender, I didn’t know that the publisher had cut it down when I read and reviewed it and I remember being a little baffled at the way the central section was almost glossed over.
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But yes, we don’t want anyone to get Dan Brown-itis (except for the fame and fortune part)
I tend to write books between novella and short novel length, but my co-author and I do have a pair of books releasing in February and April that are monsters. One is a re-release, Bee Among The Clover, and is a 5th century historical that clocks in at 144k. It was originally 169k lol. It’s sequel, Lotus In The Wild, is a bit shorter at 110k, but still a good double the length of the average ebook, if not more than. Both will be in print and ebook and I can’t wait to see how lovely all those pages look in trade paperback. I think it translates to something like 400 pages. 😀
We had a very hard time finding a home for those books, in part due to the length. The majority of publishers wouldn’t even look at Bee at 144k, it was well over 30k above most pubs cut off limit. We’re very happy to have found a good home with them at Dreamspinner Press. 🙂
Good luck, Fae! I realise that they are fantasy historicals, so sadly I couldn’t review Bee on Speak Its Name, I eagerly await an ordinary historical from you!
Dreamspinner will print publish a 144k word novel? Isn’t the book hugely expensive per copy?
I like big books as well, as long as the length is justified. Sometimes, big books just go and on with no reason and the reader gets bored. As luck would have it, I also write big things, because I simply can’t squeeze everything I have in mind in a short story. The longest I have so far is around 112k.
It would seem, though, that recently, the most popular books are the medium sized ones, about 30k-50k, which can have a reasonable character description and plot, without boring the reader. It’s now debatable. If you have an idea in your head that requires a certain size, don’t squeeze it because it might sell better. It would only damage the end product. Oh, and ammonite, 75k is not that much, so don’t worry. My debut novel was 95k. 😀
I’m the same, Scarlet – I tend to write a short story (for an anthology, or something) and 9 times out of 10 I want to write more about the characters, just to write a PWP with them is never enough. So far I’ve refrained because I can do without more projects!
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If publishers are thinking “but most readers WANT smaller books” then I think they are wrong.
JFM wrote: “Not sure about the “Intrigue” series or the “Medical” series ones. I’d bet the Intrigue are longer, like historicals, because like I speculated, more story alongside the romance.”
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The Intrigues expanded to 80K+ when the decade-old push in publishing was for bigger manuscripts — that trend is now on the wane throughout mainstream publishing. Why? Because readers began to (inevitably) complain about “padding” in books.
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Last time I checked, Intrigue was about 55K. This is true of the current trend of smaller, tighter, more focused books and writing. You see it particularly in the mystery genre. (Obviously certain other genres are immune to this — historical remains “fat” for a reason as do spec fiction and some other genres.)
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In general the move is away from “bloated” prose and what is viewed as “inflated” book pricing (not sure where you came up with the idea that the trend is toward bigger books, Erastes? Could you share that?)
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I’ve always been a fan of those sharp, tightly-written novels of the 30s, 40s, 50s — they typically came in at about 45-50K. Not a word wasted and the reader was always left wanting more (I consider that the ideal state in which to leave a reader).
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That’s why I was so excited when I discovered ebooks and the fact that here in Edom the novella-length reigns supreme. Why? Because most people are still downloading PDF files and reading at their computers, and the shorter length is easier on their eyes and butts.
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(It ain’t rocket science, folks.)
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I’ve glanced at some of these Amazon discussions, and the fact is that most “gay” romance (AKA “m/m romance”) is published in electronic format, and shorter is better for most readers. It’s also better for most writers because — at the risk of sounding unkind — most writers in m/m romance don’t have enough plot or conflict to last 75K.
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But that’s really not a criticism. Every book doesn’t have to be a novel. There’s nothing I love more (as a reader or a writer) than the idea of capturing a few days in the life of a couple of guys — days that will change their lives forever — and writing about that. I write novels, novellas, short stories based on the needs of the story I want to tell, and generally when a reviewer or reader complains that a story wasn’t long enough…I have to respectfully disagree. I know exactly how much story I’ve got. The fact that I can fool a reviewer or reader into thinking there was a lot more there is flattering (but not true).
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The beautiful thing about ebook publishing is there is a variety and a flexibility here that we don’t find in mainstream publishing. Mainstream publishing still doesn’t quite know what to do with the novella. The novella is a terrific and unique literary art form (anybody remember Hemingway?) and is just now truly coming into its own.
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The only sin in writing I see is when an author can’t figure out how much story (s)he has and doesn’t plan accordingly. As a reader…I don’t choose books based on length, but I judge harshly if the story doesn’t merit its alloted lifespan.
“not sure where you came up with the idea that the trend is toward bigger books, Erastes? Could you share that?)”
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I never said that, Josh. I said that the trend was toward SMALLER books, and that I like ’em bigger with meat on them. Everything I pick up is 100 pages, 80 pages, 150 pages. The novel is becoming the exception to the norm.
Thanks for that information about the Intrigue series Josh, very interesting.
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It is interesting the way ebooks have revived the novella. Obviously a lot of them are romances just now, since romance and erotica is so big in ebooks, but I wonder if other genres will start producing more novellas as ebooks continue to expand the marker.
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I agreee that novellas are a unique art form. I read your Collected Novellas Vol 1 recently and unlike some other novella I’ve read, they did feel right, not trimmed down novels or stretched short stories. I think you handle the form very well. While certainly I’d be interested in more about those characters, the stories themselves are complete and satisfying.
Sorry. I read this line too quickly:
“I know that many publishers say that 100,000 is the maximum size…”
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I read “maximum” as “minimum.” Something I try not to do when I’m taking cold meds. *g*
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