No, I’m not discussing sweaters. I’m discussing *whispers* foreskins.
The big decision for some pregnant moms-to-be is “If my baby is a boy, do I have him circumcised or leave him au naturel?” I say some because for other mother’s this isn’t even a consideration, it’s either a yes, often for religious reasons, or no for personal or cultural reasons. How does this relate to m/m romance you are asking and what the hell are you rambling on about? Getting there. When you read m/m romance do you care if the characters are cut or uncut? Do you assume they are if a character is American and aren’t if they are European? Does it even cross your mind if you don’t specifically see reference to it in the story? What about the future of m/m romance?
I raise the issue because in Canada, the stats say about 30% of adult men are circumcised, in the US 75%, in the UK 6% and in Australia 60%. The number in Canada remains about the same for babies although Quebec is much lower. So in 20 years, the odds of finding a circumcised French-Canadian lover (fictional or otherwise) will be pretty slim. Only about 2% of British children are circumcised today and less than 15% of Australians, however it remains at about 85% for parts of the US mid-west. Should authors pay attention to trends like this or do we not care? Obviously if a character is Jewish or Muslim we would expect them to be circumcised as their religion dictates, but what if he’s born in Chicago and his lover is British? Would it throw you off to have the British lover be cut or would you likely not notice. (Of course now that I’m tossing these stats at you it will jump out next time you read it. Sorry. 🙂 )
I’ll be honest, when I’m reading most of the time I don’t really care nor do I think about it, but it would throw me off more if someone from a European country was cut than it would the reverse. If a character born in Nebraska was intact, I wouldn’t think twice, even though I suppose it would be rare. If the author doesn’t say cut or uncut I’m not sure what I presume. I guess I just don’t think about it. I’m assuming in historical novels the men are au naturel unless there is a religious basis for it.
So authors, do you think about foreskins? While you are writing of course. 🙂 Do you consider whether your character would or wouldn’t have one depending on their culture, where they were born, nationality? Or do you write in such a way that it simply doesn’t come up, the foreskin issue I mean, I’m not talking erectile disfunction. Readers, do you care? Do you prefer one or the other (either in books or real-life) and would you notice if something is statistically out of the norm? This is not a debate out whether children should or shouldn’t be, but about characters fitting the demographics from which they come. (This could apply to hair color – excpet for all those blonde Japanese men in yaoi – or any trait I suppose).
Ya gotta love Belgian animators.
Usually, when I create a character I have a firm picture of him in my mind, and usually on my laptop. If he’s circumsized in the the picture, he would be in the story too, unless there’s a reason for him not to be, such as being Catholic. My former Catholic flames were uncut, so those characters would be, too. I’ve only written one European characters so far, a Frenchman, and he was uncut.
It doesn’t bother me how the writer depicts them, but it is nice to know which they are in their description, for, to a creative mind, it opens up possibilities.
Hmmm. Maybe that’s why Quebec has such a low rate of circumcision Eden since it is predominantly Catholic. I’m not so familiar with their practices beyond the obvious stuff like the Pope.
I’ve really only ever written fanfiction, but mostly, cut or uncut doesn’t play a part in what I read or write. Unless the author makes a point in the story about it, I don’t even pay attention to that part of the description.
So that would make my preference a ‘dickie’ under my crew cut? 🙂
“So that would make my preference a ‘dickie’ under my crew cut? ”
LOL I haven’t heard the use of the word dickie since I was a kid. 🙂 Personally I don’t pay all that much attention to it either when I read.
I recently read a historical where the characters were European and Christian and there was no mention of a foreskin. Since m/m romance seems to revel in foreskins in a way that het doesn’t, it threw me off that the author didn’t take advantage the fact that the characters would have foreskins. It got to the point where all I could think about during sex scenes was “where’s the foreskin? Why isn’t he pushing back the guy’s foreskin before sucking him off?”
Being American and Jewish, I sort of assume that all characters are cut unless otherwise specified, but I don’t actually have a preference one way or the other. However, I’ve read so many great sex scenes where foreskins play a serious role that it seems a shame to miss such an opportunity the way that this author did.
I definitely assume they have them in historicals. I suppose the author was going with the assumption the foreskin was hanging around during the sex scene. 🙂 I know some authors really bring it into the sex scene and make a point of it and others don’t. I suppose like anything that’s a personal preference.
Did we just watch the fappy dance?
He’s a happy penis. 😀
For myself, I don’t care but am definitely more familiar with the cut version.
In fiction, unless it’s mentioned, I don’t think about it and apparently just assume they’re “fixed”.
And you’re right…..I”m going to be very aware from now on. Thanks alot, Tam??!!!! 😉
“I”m going to be very aware from now on. Thanks alot, Tam??!!!!”
You’re welcome. *beams* Don’t you hate when people do that? Ask you if you notice something and then all of a sudden you do where you didn’t before? LOL
If the characters are American I think I too assume cut, but mostly I guess I just don’t think about it much unless it’s specifically mentioned.
“Don’t you hate when people do that? Ask you if you notice something and then all of a sudden you do where you didn’t before?”
Yes. Thank you SO much, Tam dearest.
Ha! Like you’re one to talk Miss “Is it just me or …. 😛
Tam
I don’t really think about it, much! I did a post sometime ago about this but it was more along the lines of asking gay men what their preference was. Bobby Michaels, one of my favourite M/M authors, loves the foreskin and even what’s underneath it, so all of his heroes are uncut.
In a gay romance I suppose I prefer that the guy be uncut because there’s so much ‘play’ with the skin, but other than that I don’t mind either, just as long as he has one – cock, I mean. 🙂
“just as long as he has one – cock, I mean.”
Um, yeah. I’d have to say that’s pretty much a deal breaker for me with a guy. LOL
In the case of always writing about guy with foreskins, I know Bobby Michaels does the university dorm type thing, if the dorm in the US was full of guys who were uncut, that would be pretty unrealistic since even today 85% of babies are circumcised so I think that would throw me off. Some kind of weird statistical anomaly.
Oh, Tam love, you crack me up.
I have to admit that as a reader, I don’t think much about it, unless the author specifically mentions it. If it is noted that there is a foreskin, I will expect to read more about it.
I do believe that while religion plays an important part in the have or have not, time period does as well. I’m too lazy to look up the stats, but I suspect that boys born mid-twentieth century in the States are more likely to be circumcised than those born in the later decades.
It does seem to be changing in some areas of the US http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/circ_rate_region_1995-2006.png but is still pretty much the same now overall as in the 60’s although there is a downward trend. It has become more regional with 80% of kids in the midwest vs about 37% on the west coast. It notes that most Hispanics don’t so that could account for a high rate of intact boys on the west coast.
Arrggghh. I’m such a statistics geek. Sorry. Sorry.
It’s lower in Quebec… Man I so didn’t want to know that. LOL! I know you’re talking about m/m romance but now it’s stuck in my brain, I can only imagine what I will be thinking next time at the diner table with my friends… I so didn’t need that. LOL!
Great post Tam!
LOL Well, you could ask for empirical evidence next time Aliens. 😀 Think of it as a service you’d be providing us here to come back with proof.
Having lived overseas in Europe and Asia for a number of years, I’ve actually had more European and Asian partners than American. For the record, I think most Japanese are cut as well.
Give me cut.
Sorry, but when I read about BJ’s with uncut men in stories, especially historicals, the only thing that sticks in my mind is that gross looking and smelling cheese that collects under the foreskin skin during the day.
I have a really hard time when I read “he pulled back the foreskin…” Of course that doesn’t matter as much if they’ve just showered.
Aesthetically, I prefer cut as well. I’ve seen some uncut penises with more foreskin than penis in a flaccid state, with all these shrively folds of skin that urine and other stuff gets trapped in and it’s gross looking.
Have I made people sick? snort Sorry. It’s all personal preference of course, but it does affect how I feel about a sex scene in a book.
Um, yeah, thank for that LVLM. I haven’t had breakfast yet. LOL
Well my ex was intact and there was never a problem with those issues but maybe it depends on the guy.
LVLM,
Can I just say: Ew!
Damn. My comment got eaten.
My men are always uncut, being historicals – and I’ve not written any sexually active Jewish men yet. I think that Mord was Jewish in Frost Fair but he was too young.
When Fleury starts exploring America in “Blackguards!” I’m sure he’ll come across (no pun intended but now I’m giggling like a 12 year old) a mutilated cock or 20.
If reading a contemp, I’d always assume an Englishman would be uncut unless it was otherwise stated – and how could you not mention it in a sex scene, it would be impossible, I’d say.
On a personal level, I prefer uncut, more to play with and helps with the friction aspect.
“and how could you not mention it in a sex scene, it would be impossible, I’d say.”
I’ve read some scenes that are much more “generic” if you will, just kind of glossing over the details so you can get away without mentioning it, but like you, I assume British (or European in general) characters are intact.
“When Fleury starts exploring America in “Blackguards!” I’m sure he’ll come across (no pun intended but now I’m giggling like a 12 year old) a mutilated cock or 20.”
Actually, I’m not sure how many circumcised cocks Fleury would run into in America of the early to mid-19th century. According to this article, circumcision in America was popularized by a man named Dr. Lewis Sayre in 1870 (he claimed that there was a connection between having a foreskin and having an orthopedic illness–as well as “gout, asthma, hernias, epilepsy, rheumatism, curvature of the spine, tuberculosis and elephantiasis”) and Dr. John Harvey Kellogg in 1888 (yes, he who invented Kellogg’s Corn Flakes), who thought that circumcision was a marvelous cure for masturbation.
“A remedy for masturbation which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision,” [Kellogg] wrote. “The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment. In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement.”
So…yeah. Fleury probably wouldn’t run into many circumcised men unless he was sleeping with men whose religions or cultures promoted circumcision. Mainstream America wasn’t into it in his time.
Good god, Tracey, I think my brain just exploded on reading that Kellogg quote. Yeah, that’s the way to keep boys from fiddling with their bits, give them a unconscious traumatic memory or something painful happening to their genitals. Nice plan.
I don’t even dare think about his “treatment” for the girls. What a git!
Holy shit. Kellogg was whack. Almost makes me want to stop eating Corn Flakes.
Hope the formatting works!
Fleury probably wouldn’t run into many circumcised men unless he was sleeping with men whose religions or cultures promoted circumcision. Mainstream America wasn’t into it in his time.
Which is exactly what I said–or meant–he hasn’t met many Jewish men or followers of Islam, not in a sexual capacity. But circumcision as a deterrent for masturbation -was “established medical theory” a long time before Mad Kellogg. (although a bit early for Fleury)
http://www.historyofcircumcision.net/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=90
Edward H. Dixon (1808-1880). In his Treatise on the Diseases of the Sexual Organs (1845) he became one of the first north American advocates of both therapeutic foreskin amputation (to correct an existing problem) and of the universal imposition of the ancient Hebrew rite of infant circumcision (as a prophylactic against possible future problems).
And yes – I know who Kellogg was!! LOL
I am possibly scarred for life by that animated clip. O_o
You poor innocent soul you. Go find some cookies to make you feel better. 🙂 There’s a new cookie at my place. Have a bite.
I don’t actually think about whether the men in male/male romance have foreskins or not, and I’d probably be surprised if the author mentioned it. It just never struck me as something that was important to the story.
I’ve seen it mentioned fairly often in a sex scene. If you are describing every other little detail it makes sense that you describe the movement of the foreskin. But I’ve also read other scenes where the detail is not there and so mention of it would be out of place. Depends on the style I suppose.
Interesting topic. Being Jewish (and American) it never occurs to me that someone might be uncut. And my only up close and personal experience is circumcised. Interesting, I guess I never knew Catholics didn’t circumcise. My hubby is Cathplic and is.
In my reading, I think I’d always be thinking about the cleanliness factor. Probably ignorance on my part but there it is.
And great. I’ll never look at my colleagues frm my London office the same way again. So thanks for that!
“And great. I’ll never look at my colleagues frm my London office the same way again. So thanks for that!”
My work here is done. 🙂 I’m not sure about the Catholic thing. I’m sure much of it depends on culture as well, such as in the US where certain areas have higher rates than others. Sometimes it’s just habit.
I don’t think about it when I’m reading. Even if it’s mentioned I don’t stop to think “he’s European and should be uncut” or the other way around.
My hubby is uncut but when I had my son it was assumed he’d be cut and since I didn’t know better at the time I did what the hospital recommended.
I’ve been with both cut and uncut but being with my hubby for so long I honestly can’t remember what cut was like anymore. And darn it, I don’t think he’d like me to find out. 😉
“And darn it, I don’t think he’d like me to find out.”
I’m thinking not. LOL There was a period of time where Dr’s and parents just assumed it would be done. But that is definitely changing. I know when my daughter was born 15 (nearly) years ago my Dr. told me that if she was a boy and I wanted it done I’d have to find another Dr. because she refused. So there are changes in practice now.
Great post, Tam! Adding that specific detail (cut or uncut) can tell a lot about the character and bring more realism to the sex scene, no question. But only if the author gets it right per the statistics or we readers will start to wonder if they know what they’re talking about. As for the video, I think that’s one of the funniest (and weirdest) things I’ve ever seen! Go, Belgium!
Belgium, land of the dancing penis. 🙂
I think keeping your character in tune with their culture/nationality in general is important or it can throw a reader off balance. Obviously there are some little things in more uncommon cultures readers may not be aware of but some of the more common stuff I need to be consistent or I start thinking about that rather than the story.
I knew Kellogg was nuts, but damn, I had no idea how nuts. UGH.
I’m trying to remember in what book it was that the hero was undercover and was found out. The bad guys did something really nasty to his foreskin that required surgery (and was possibly even life threatening?)…
“The bad guys did something really nasty to his foreskin that required surgery (and was possibly even life threatening?)”
I don’t even HAVE a foreskin and that made me clench my legs together. OUCH. But now that you mention it, I remember it too. (I probably tried to block it out.) Huh. Maybe someone will remember the book.
I think the guy who invented Graham Crackers was also crackers. I think they were supposed to stop him from having sexual urges. I hate to break it to him, but I’ve eaten a lot of Graham Crackers in my day and it didn’t work.
That book would be Forbidden Desire by Carolina Valdez. I should know, I bought the ebook twice! And honestly, it wasn’t for the foreskin. 🙂
Thanks Salina. I don’t seem to have it so I must have just heard about it somewhere as we winced in sympathy.
In the Jewish and Muslim faiths, circumcision is a ritual practice; I’ve not heard about it in relation to Catholics. Certainly every Catholic man I’ve been with (including my husband) has been circumsized but that might be a US influence. Circumcision was popularized in the US after WWII with the idea that a circed penis was cleaner and more sanitary but the procedure was also a money maker for obstetricians. For years, parents didn’t even know they could refuse to have their son circed; it was done routinely. There was a 2 decade period (roughly from 1975-1995) where circumcision rates were going down but now people are back on the kick of increased rates of transmission of STDs (including HIV) in uncircumsized men so the numbers are inching back up again. I have lots of opinions on this topic but that is probably another rant for a different day.
My publishing imprint, Bristlecone Pine Press has two books coming out soon (part of a trilogy) in which circumcision is an important component for part of the story. The issue doesn’t go on for pages and pages and when the actual act happens (to an adult man) it’s off page, so don’t worry, it’s not gross. But it is an integral part of one character’s development. I was surprised when I first read the manuscript. The book will be coming out later this month. I’ll keep you posted.
L
Interesting Leslie. I’ve heard it’s REALLY painful for an adult male. Well, I’m sure it’s painful for babies too.
Speaking of painful for the adult male, how insane is this?
Ya know, if you are dumb enough to hook up wit a Dr. off Craig’s list for a circumcision and then his office is in his bedroom and you don’t run for the hills, you deserve to have your dick mutilated. LOL
“Having lived overseas in Europe and Asia for a number of years, I’ve actually had more European and Asian partners than American. For the record, I think most Japanese are cut as well.”
Okay, so this goes into majory TMI territory, but I watch a lot of Japanese gay porn. NEVER seen a cut guy in them, ever. Everyone’s uncut.
Never TMI when you are educating the masses Mikuto. 🙂 According to the WHO (World Health Organization not the rock band) the rate of circumcision is very high in the Philippines. Not sure why. Here is an interesting map. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Global_Map_of_Male_Circumcision_Prevalence_at_Country_Level.png Obviously http://www.gayromance.org/?p=18494&cpage=1&replytocom=41580#respondAsian Muslim countries as well. Not sure what’s up with South Korea.
Actually this Wkipedia site as some interesting info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision.
Foreskin amputation? Whoa, that casts it in a whole new light.
I had no idea the circ rates varied so wildly from country to country. From religion to religion, yes. But I, too, have never heard of a Catholic injunction against it. I’ve never known (yeah, in the Biblical sense) a Catholic man who wasn’t cut.
I think it must be a Catholic/regional thing KZ. A Catholic in Quebec is less likely to be cut than one in Kansas.
I’m with Chris. Scarred for life after watching that belgium cartoon.
Speaking as a man with personal experience in the matter, my dickie is cuttie. And this is the first time I’ve ever called it that. Thank you very much!
That quote from Kellough is definitely TMI.
Sigh. You innocents. A dancing penis and you’re running for cover.
Thanks for sharing John. 😉
I’m very vocal on this issue and my Jewish family doesn’t approve so I’ll try and stay on topic here.
For me, I love when an author’s characters are uncut, but only if it makes sense for the characters. So yeah, I guess I’d like them to do some research on whether in that time period and place what was the likelihood. However, that doesn’t mean there can’t be an outlier. It just has to make sense or be explained if it’s something out there.
If there isn’t a mention of it, my mind does the editing for them. I imagine men are uncut if it’s a historical or paranormal…and by the time clothes get flying they’re pretty much past the point of needing a whole lot of pushing and pulling, so it’s just an easy mental add on for me. For American contemporary, they get cut unless I’m in an uncut mood. I’m American so that’s what I’m used to, but I’ve had one uncut lover and I prefer the look/feel.
One last note…I just read an article the other day that said there was a new trend with a Briss. Instead of complete removal, some people are now doing a ceremonial cut instead. My sister wasn’t impressed. *sigh*
It takes a lot to break cultural traditions. I’d never heard of the ceremonial thing. I too assume most paranormals are uncut, not sure why. I guess I assume they are more off the grid, not giving birth in hospitals or having contact with medical professionals.
In Britain no-one is circumcised unless they are Jewish or there’s been a medical problem. I would have been thought mad had I asked for my non-jewish sons to be circumcised – in fact I would probably not have been able to have the proceedure done on the NHS. I had a mate at college who was circumcised which was a source of utter fascination all round.
In my m/m books, I assume that men from the US will be cut, unless specified in the book. I will also assume that men from Europe will be uncut.
Fascinating statistics, Tam. I’m glad you’re here to fill us in on the important stuff in our m/m reading ;).
It’s not all about the entertainment Jen. I’m determined you guys are going to learn something if it kills me. 🙂
I’m sure your friend appreciated his penis being a great source of awe and wonder all the way around. LOL
Mmmm…. actually I think most Japanese men are uncut. I lived in Hong Kong and now in England, it’s very rare to see/or to know anyone whose has gone through circumcision. It’s not something that parents need to consider – unless the foreskin becomes a problem for the kid.
I don’t think about it at all when I read m/m books, but of course, I would raise my eyebrow if someone is writing historical story set in Europe and the anglo-saxon male is cut.
It’s funny that back in the days before m/m genre, I read gay porn and some US authors would use uncut penis as a symbol of “raw” and “wild”, to spice up things. I suppose some of us just prefer what we are used to; or be excited by the “unknown”.
The fascination with the unfamiliar is certainly a factor in making something seem more exciting.
All but one of my partners have been cut. My sons are as well. (on the advice of my nursing-home nurse mother, who has cared for people at both ends of life and advises it for sheer cleanliness)
However, my characters vary. I have characters goggle because they’ve never seen an uncut cock, or who are a little embarassed by their own naked one.
I assume the characters I read about are, unless it’s mentioned. Or we get into docking.
“Or we get into docking.”
Being cut definitely takes that activity off the list. 🙂
Personally I don’t care. Do I did hear uncut are harder to please. Or so they say
I don’t think I would notice or care. I think the only time I would raise an eyebrow is if there is a jewish or muslim character who is uncut.