Before you get all upset and everyone starts throwing things or smacking me around, which is not a nice thing to do anyway, I want to say upfront that this is a fun post, so don’t get your shorts (or lacy underthings) in a twist….
I call M/M romances “condom fest” because that’s what they are. Everywhere I turn in an M/M story – except for sci fi, historicals or paranormals – (more about that later) condoms are flying every which way in every colour of the rainbow. 🙂 Did I say rainbow? Sorry, that was a slip of the tongue but very appropriate.
Have you noticed that het romances don’t have many condoms (comparatively speaking) even though the hero and heroine are going at it like gangbusters and the heroine’s sexual past is just as spotty as that of a gay man’s? Is there a double standard? Of course part of the reason could be because in M/M there are usually two dicks in play, while in het romances there may only be one dick at a time, unless it’s a menage in which case there could be up to four. It is a fact that there are fewer condoms in het romances. How else can you explain why so many heroines get pregnant with the Sheikh’s baby, or the boss’s sperm finds its way up the va jay jay some starry night and a few months later, lo and behold, the secretary has a little whatever his name is.
I thought that the theme song for this post should be “Imagine” by The Beatles. Of course Larissa – damn her for being so young – will probably ask me who the hell are these dudes, The Beatles, and whether they are a new Goth group. 🙂
“Imagine there are no condoms
It’s easy if you try
No latex between us
Above us only sky (or sheets of cum)”
……. sorry, I lost my rhythm there but I think I make a pretty OK poet 🙂
Picture an M/M book without condoms:
First: The book would be a hell of a lot shorter. Think of how much time the guys spend either putting one on, taking it off, tying it off, (yes, Virginia, they still tie them off and I have no idea why someone would want to hold those slimy f**kers long enough to tie them off – ask the authors), wrapping them in tissues, and then aiming for the garbage cans and missing.
Second: Many condoms would no longer go to landfill sites. Do you have any idea about the number of condoms in M/M romances? At the current rate that the protags have sex in M/M stories today, that’s at least 20 x 2 condoms per novella. So 40 condoms at minimum are used before the HEA, and if the book is novel length you have to double that number to 80. (I’m pretty good at math). 🙂 Of course authors could reduce the amount of sex in the books and this would mean less condom action, but I’m told that because these are ‘erotic’ romances the ‘rule’ is they need to have the guys in bed for at least one third to one half of the book. hee!
Third: Publishers would lose a lot of good mojo with those readers who insist on condoms at all costs in their M/M books, even with committed couples – again, I don’t know why. It’s not as if it means anything. Remember, these stories are fantasies. Read on ……
Fourth: A lot of the dialogue and prose in these books would be eliminated. For example, Guy #1 wouldn’t have to ask Guy #2 if he was “clean” since that wouldn’t matter, and Guy #2 wouldn’t need to answer. I’m wondering, since I haven’t read many het romances recently, what do they ask in place of the much hated “Are you clean”? The other preliminary “getting to know you” stuff such as “What size do you take? I have extra, extra small to jumbo” would also not be necessary, and the protags would go at it sooner, so all you would hear would be grunts in place of full sentences. 🙂
Fifth: The guys would not need to be constantly going out for “supplies”. No condoms = no shopping, and we all know that men hate shopping. Of course they would still have to buy lube, but if they didn’t have any in the house they could always use what they did in the ‘old’ days – good old lard. 🙂 Or olive oil. If OO reminds you of cooking, what about a nice pat of butter? Sorry, there goes that cooking thingy again.
Sixth: There would be no need for all of that ribbed, fancy stuff. The guys would not have to use “girly” condoms in different colours that tough cowboys hate. After all, real cowboys who may use a condom or two just want basic white stuff.
Seventh: Think of all the money the guys would save if they didn’t have to buy all of those condoms they use in M/M romances. Who normally buys them anyway – the pitcher or the catcher?
Eighth: Gone would be the horrible taste of latex while performing oral sex. Have you noticed lately that more and more of the guys in M/M romances are using condoms for oral sex? I wonder if this happens in het romances as well?
Ninth: Some of my fun in reading paranormals, historicals and sci fi would be watered down. I’m sure you’ve noticed that these books have no condoms. Whoever invented the excuse of why there was no need for condoms in these books (weres, vamps etc. can’t catch STD’s) is a genius. Now if only they could fix contemporary M/M. hmmmm……..
Tenth: If there were no condoms editors would be able to spend their time editing instead of checking to see whether M/M authors had the appropriate “outerwear” or “raincoats” on their guys. They won’t have to point out all the time “you missed a few dicks.” Sorry, I meant “a few spots.” 🙂
Eleventh: Those readers, publishers, editors and authors who are having heart failure right about now imagining gay men in contemporary M/M romances without condoms, take a deep breath. These books are fantasies just like paranormals, sci fi and historicals. Whenever I complain about characterizations the authors tell me that the characters are not supposed to be like real people, they are products of their imaginations. So having said that, who are the authors really doing the condom thingy for? If the protags are not real people how can they catch real people diseases? Just asking! Are we trying to educate real gay men about safe sex? Newsflash: The few real gay men who read M/M don’t really need M/M romances to teach them about safe sex. Pssst, I think they already know . 🙂 Just saying 🙂
Twelfth: Publishers’ guerilla or stealth marketing tactics will no longer generate the goodwill that they have built up in the past with the condom manufacturers. Currently publishers could probably ink a deal with Trojan to mention condoms x number of times in each M/M book and Trojan would give them a kickback based solely on the number of “condom moments.” That promotional opportunity would be gone in a flash if condoms went the way of the do do bird.
Thirteenth: I’m still thinking about this. But while I’m thinking about another fantasy, do you think that those characters in M/M romances who are really hung (you know the ones I mean), are they available only to other guys? Okay I know they’re gay, but if they’re looking, I’m available ………. that’s my fantasy. 🙂
I hope that the authors, publishers, editors and readers of M/M romances have a sense of humour or I’m sunk. 🙂
This post is commercial free. Tune in next week when I’ll have another episode of “As The M/M World Turns.” Next week’s episode is about fantasies. You’ll really like that one. 🙂
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BTW Kassa I did not steal the picture of condoms on a clothesline from you. I used it first right after I stole it from JenB, another blogger friend almost 2 years ago when I did my first condom post. 🙂
Okay….*backs away slowly while making mental note to only write historicals and fantasy, sans condoms, from now on*
Sorry. The mom is me is determined that my stories be public service announcement for “Now you boys play safe!” Maternal instincts can be a bother sometimes.
By the way, some of those offerings hanging from that clothesline are downright frightening.
Hi Eden
>>Sorry. The mom is me is determined that my stories be public service announcement for “Now you boys play safe!” Maternal instincts can be a bother sometimes.<< What about your daughters? I thought these books were supposed to be "romances" not "public service announcements." That was part of the reason for my post. Do authors pat themselves on the back by saying "See, we have done our public service duty by including condoms, now we can go back to writing books about gay men having sex and our conscience is clear?" This reminds me of when publishers introduced menages with women into M/M books to make some straight women feel OK about reading about gay men having sex. The idea being that if a woman was in the mix (M/M/F or M/F/M), some straight women wouldn't feel funny about reading books about gay men having sex. I wrote a post about menages almost a year ago. I love those condoms on the line - I think they are pretty cool. 🙂
You know condoms are such an intricate part of a contemp romance story that I miss them when they are not used?
Hi Ingrid
That’s what I don’t understand. Although this is a fun post I could never understand why condoms are such a big deal in M/M romances. These are fantasies, and the audience is mostly straight women, so to whom is the condom message targeted? And if condoms are so important, why is there not as much emphasis in het romance where pregnancies occur with regularity?
I’m really interested in WHY we place so much importance on condoms in M/M romance.
Don’t know Wave. But if they are not used in contemp I immediately start to think about HIV as a plot thing.
So by using something as simple as condoms in a story will keep that plot bunny away and stays focused on other things.
It seems like all those years of campaigning for save sex did take root.
” condom moments” – *giggle* –
I could use the amount of them to keep my m/m-books filed.
Hi Simsala
I thought condom moments was very imaginative. I’m glad you liked it. 🙂
I do like to see the condoms in my contemporary, I guess if you eat, wear clothes, drive a car, have a job, sleep and do the myriad of other things based on reality, I want that too. 🙂 I just had a slight fit his week when he slept sans condom (slept? stood bent over a desk) with a guy who supposedly had sex with hundreds of groupies. Ewwww. LOL
There is the cost factor. I remember in Hot Ticket by KA Mitchell poor Elliott commented that he never realized how expensive keeping them in condoms would be. LOL
I’m always a bit mystified about the size thing. My daughter told me that one of the kids in her health class actually managed to stand in a condom and pull it up to her waist, so I can’t imagine one being too “small”. LOL Too big maybe but NEVER in m/m. No under-endowed characters need apply for roles except as annoying unsatisfying exes. 🙂
Hi Tam
I’m still trying to wrap my mind around why going sans condom in every other sub genre is OK but not in contemporary M/M.
>>I guess if you eat, wear clothes, drive a car, have a job, sleep and do the myriad of other things based on reality, I want that too<< I'm always told that these stories are fantasies (and the antics of the guys certainly support that theory) so why do we place such emphasis on condoms in M/M contempory romances? No one has complained to date about no condoms in paranormals, sci fi or historical romances. Why? Because someone said that they weren't necessary? And why don't readers make a stink about no condoms in het romances which have as much sexual action as M/M. There are a few condoms in het but certainly not the almost religious zeal that I see in M/M. They do come in different sizes Tam. 🙂 However, all the guys in M/M will always need extra large.
Because in my world people don’t change into wolves (that I’m aware of, perhaps I’m just oblivious), or fly in spaceships, or fight dragons, or live in castles with no running water so I don’t expect the same things in those that I do in a contemporary. If a contemporary had people breathing under water and eating wood chips, I’d dislike that as well. You have to stay true to your genre I think and keep it as real to THAT world as you can. Because no fantasy or sci-fi worlds exist (that we know) authors have much more leeway. I can’t call them on the fact that a warrior on planet Xenon would have used a condom. How the hell do I know? Maybe he didn’t even have a dick? I can tell you that the odds of a guy who plays unsafe in backrooms of clubs in Toronto in 2010 having a disease is pretty great. So for me it has to fit.
When I was looking for colored condoms for my post I didn’t actually notice them in different sizes. Mind you, I was trying to find something unlubricated which at the huge Shoppers was impossible. They don’t exist. Go figure. I suppose you wouldn’t want an extra large guy in a small condom, could end up restricting the blood flow. Ohhh, wait, built in cock ring. 🙂
Oh and I haven’t read contemporary het in ….. ummmmm ….. the 1980’s when condoms were not de rigeur. I went from PNR to m/m so you had the “no diseases” thing going on. To me a condom is to prevent disease, not good enough for pregnancy so I assume if the woman is on b/c and the vamp/wolf/demon/etc. can’t carry germs then a condom is useless.
I would LOVE to lose the condoms! Let’s just declare the men all clean from here on out (unless the story dictates otherwise). Can we do that? 🙂
I usually write my sex scenes without them. As a woman who has been with the same partner for nearly twenty years, the condoms just don’t occur to me. And then at the end, I’m always trying to figure out if and when and how to sneak the darn things in (on?). They’re such a mood-killer! As you’ve said, these are fun fantasies, even when they’re “contemporary”. So… off with the condoms! 😉 (Please?)
Marie
>>I would LOVE to lose the condoms! Let’s just declare the men all clean from here on out (unless the story dictates otherwise). Can we do that? << Somehow I don't think the editors would let you get away with that since it seems they have taken an oath that all M/M romances MUST have the guys wearing condoms. BTW I mentioned this further down in the comments, using the word "clean" in respect to a gay man's sero status is considered insulting to them. I did a post several months ago and here's a link if you would care to read it. Many M/M authors unknowingly insult the same people they write about. http://www.gayromance.org/?p=6771
LOL, it took me a good few minutes before I could stop staring at the condom pic and actually read the post.
I agree with Ingrid and Tam– it bothers me in contemporary m/m romances when the guys don’t use condoms (at least until they’re in an LTR with each other) unless it’s explained that they’re both virgins or something. Maybe that’s just the doctor in me, though. Even though the stories are fantasy, I like them based in reality.
As far as other genres, I wouldn’t expect to see condoms used much with m/m at any time before the 1980’s when HIV/AIDS came on the scene, so I don’t expect them in historicals. With paranormals, it’s usually explained that the guys are resistant to infections, so wouldn’t expect them there either. And in sci-fi, I just assume science is advanced enough that all infections are easily treatable, so not a worry.
I don’t read het romance, so I can’t really comment on that except to say that using condoms would mess up the “I’m pregnant” plot line.
You don’t like my picture!!! But these things are used every time you read an M/M romance. 🙂
>>As far as other genres, I wouldn’t expect to see condoms used much with m/m at any time before the 1980’s when HIV/AIDS came on the scene<< The thing is, the latest statistics that I read indicated that the highest new infection rates seem to be among young black women not gay men. I'm not sure why M/M has such a fixation about condoms and I suspect it's a combination of straight women who feel that this is a "public service announcement" so they can feel good about reading about gay guys having sex, and authors who have the same idea. IDK. I just find it strange because if the "message" is targeted to the right audience (i.e. gay men) there should not be any condoms in M/M since very few gay men read these romances. Yeah I know the reasons advanced why sci fi, paranormals and historicals don't have any condoms. I just need someone to come up with something that's just as silly for contemporaries. 🙂
I’m equal opportunity myself – I get hopping mad on the (rare) occasions when I read het romance if there’s no condom between first time partners or people who haven’t discussed being exclusive. I tend to blame the heroine and think that she’s some kind of spineless moron. What – you want me to believe that you’re a feisty modern woman who’s in control of your life, but you don’t CARE if you catch something that might leave you sterile or possibly kill you? No glove, no love, idiot! What did your mama teach you?
It’s not just a matter of being sensible though; for me, condom use is such an integral part of modern day sex that if they’re not there I miss them. Plus it gives the author the chance to show deepening intimacy when the characters decide to get tested and go bare. I love to read about the first time a couple chose to do this, but it wouldn’t be nearly as potent if they hadn’t used protection first.
Even if all fiction is fantasy, what you write still needs to be *believable*. I think it depends on the world that you build. You have to show, in your fictional reality, just what is and isn’t believable and normal and acceptable. So for me, unless the author actually states that in their world there are no such things as venereal diseases (and shows the consequences of that in their story) anytime non-exclusive partners of any sex get wriggly without a condom, I assume that all parties involved are f*ckwits and throw the book across the room.
“No glove, no love, idiot! What did your mama teach you?”
I’m going to have my almost 15 year old (Ack, when did I get old?) trapped in the car going to Montreal in a couple of weeks (Yay, Cirque du Soleil) so I am going to have the talk (yet again). She can’t escape when we’re going 100 km down the highway right? LOL I think it’s time to put the box under her bathroom sink, even if she only gives them to her friends who are bing stupid.
I used to work in front-line services in the UK benefit department and I was always seeing these young women with no job and no place to live, with several young children and in desperate need of money. There were times (when the same girl turned up again with ANOTHER new baby, homeless AGAIN because ANOTHER boyfriend had kicked her and the kids out) when I seriously wanted to wear a T-shirt that said exactly that: ‘No Glove, No Love, Stupid’. Unfortunately the dress code wouldn’t allow it…
Alexi
In real life the women are just as stupid as gay men ab out protection, yet in romances het is not as strict about the condom rule as M/M. I wonder why? Do the editors think that being gay automatically makes the guys “dirty” i.e diseased, so they have to wear a glove at all times?
God, I hope it’s not that. Prejudice, I mean. To be fair, unprotected anal sex does carry a higher risk of infection than unprotected vaginal sex – but as you pointed out, gay guys know that perfectly well, and straight couples do anal all the time, so that doesn’t really cover it. I don’t know. My guys wear condoms because I’m a completely anal (ha! pardon the pun) condom user – like I said earlier, no glove, no love.
However, I’m writing an SF story right now and they won’t be using condoms in that because *yay, no VD in the future!*
Maybe this is like that one-finger-two-finger-three-finger thing that a lot of writers do. A trope, something that you need to tick off the list to make sure your gay sex is ‘right’?
Tam
Just buy them for her and don’t check how many are used up you sneak.
Oh and that third condom on left, top row, frightens me. He pulls that out and I’ll be heading out the door. LOL Ack. Looks like a medieval weapon.
Tam
I don’t see anything wrong with that particular condom. Be adventurous. 🙂
Imagine being on a date and a guy whips something like that out.
“So having said that, who are the authors really doing the condom thingy for?”
I do the condom thingy for the editors. Because when i don’t (and I always forget) they remind me. vehemently, sometimes. Or else there has to be the awkward “So, wanna not use condoms anymore, baby? You’re not gonna bone anybody else, right? Cool.” conversation.
Believe me, if I had my way condoms would be based on character type (some guys are anal about it, no pun intended, while some are just reckless, just like in real life) and not on the idea that every gay man is always going to use condoms every single time and to write it otherwise is unrealistic.
Hi Fae
At last – someone, an author, who admits that she wouldn’t have the guys wearing raincoats (except if the character was anal :))
Believe me I do understand the reason for condoms in real life. What I don’t understand is why even in committed relationships the guys use condoms – doesn’t matter if they have been tested – “I say you have to wear a condom and you damn well will.” 🙂
Recently I have been reading more paranormals and sci fi’s for this reason – the condoms are just hanging on the clothes line. 🙂
It’s really one of those situations where even if we wanted to (and there have been times where I feel my character would have gone bareback) we’re not really allowed to, per guidelines. At least that’s been my experience when I’ve attempted to have a character hook up and forget to use a condom. Edits always come back with a comment asking me to put one in or at least put in a bit where the characters discuss going without. And sometimes that’s just not realistic.
Yes, it’s safest to always use one, but since when do people always do what’s safest? What about seat belts? No one ever has a problem when a character jumps in a car and races off without fastening their seatbelt. They could die from that lack of safety, too. Just an example, but the fact is the world is a dangerous place and there are any number of ways we endanger ourselves without thinking of consequences. Why should sex be any different?
That’s a really good point, Fae. It should be about what seems right for the characters and story, rather than something we HAVE to do.
Fae, I’m with you 100%!
I think condoms for casual sex partners are fine and more reality than fantasy. I don’t mind fantasy in my books but in the right circumstances condoms work and should. I frankly would be shocked if I’m reading about a playboy that goes around not using condoms. Immediately my view of his character would be changed vs. longer term partners skipping the condom bit. You don’t need a lengthy discussion of the condom, even just mention crinkling sounds and I’ll assume the condom is in the general “after sex cleanup.”
It, like anything else, is about using the condom in moderation and in the right context vs. all the time or none of the time.
BTW – I never said anything about the picture. It’s easily found googling condom so I don’t think anyone stole it from anyone else .. *backs away slowly today*
Kassa
As I said earlier in response to one of the comments, condom use is OK in M/M books but it’s the rigid adherence to them that I don’t understand. Are gay men worse than women when it comes to sex? Women may not go to a public bathroom in a bar (OK I take that back because I have actually read het romances with that scenario) for a quick trip around the block, but why is condom use so strictly enforced in M/M when it isn’t in het? I know of what I speak and I have hundreds of het romances to back me up. 🙂
I would not expect someone who is a player to have sex with BF without wearing a condom but it’s the no compromise that I don’t understand.
Are you saying that you don’t have rights to that photo? Whew!! : (I was just hiding my jewellry in case I was sued.) 🙂
Like Alexi said, I hate to read even contemporary het romance where there is no condoms between the partners, at least during their first time. I immediately start asking myself: Where do this people live? Low, low IQ, anyone? If I read the contemporary romance, het or gay, I want it based in reality. Unless the lack of condoms is explained by characters’ stupidity, carelessness or suicidal tendencies, I want to see them at least mentioned – I don’t need the color or other ‘technicalities’. XD
Hi Lady M
What about paranormals? I know you read those. The explanation offered about why they are not used is flimsy at best.
The reason I wrote this post is I was turfing a lot of my het romances and flipped through a few of them and noticed the lack of condoms and wondered why M/M romances are being singled out. These books are only about 2 years old (a few are older) so they weren’t written in the 80’s. Contrary to what many of us believe, the rate of new HIV infection is highest in young women, not young men. It seems that the men have learned their lesson and it’s the women who have to be taught about safe sex.
“What about paranormals?”
I have no problem there. What author chooses as an explanation is good enough for me, if it’s consistent with the world s/he created (I hate when they change the rules, any rules, half way through the book). Were or vampire can proceed without the condom as much as they like. XD
As for HIV & AIDS among the women, you are, of course, right. But, the world is changing much faster than our way of thinking, hence so much condoms in gay romance and so few in het stories. We can only hope our heroines will soon learn as much as gay guys. Considering that teenage girls read romances – it would be a great thing.
I’m one of those readers that is bothered when condoms aren’t used in contemporaries. I also think though that they should be used in both M/M and M/F books.
It’s a fact of life that there are many bad things out there, not just HIV, and if it weren’t for the fact that hubby and I have been together for ages, baby you couldn’t touch me without one. At least until we were serious, committed and monogamous.
Even knowing these are fictional characters it just doesn’t feel right to me when they don’t use condoms at the start. Then I like it when they’re together long enough to have the “we love each other enough to stop using them” speech. Aww, tru wuv at last! 😉
Lily
This started out as a fun post as I keep saying, and everyone is taking it WAY too seriously. I said from the beginning that this was my fantasy and I gave the reasons why – 13 of them, but most people ignored them and went for the gusto – NO COMDOMS???? Hell and damnation no!!!!
I totally agree that we should have condoms in M/M but some of the situations where they are used strike me as ridiculous, especially with committed couples. But hey that’s just me. 🙂
No condoms throws me right out of a story in a contemporary. And that includes het romance as well. I don’t know where you all get the idea that it’s not used as much in het romances. I read condoms all the time in het romances. And if there isn’t, then I notice it loud and clear. It’s an automatic mark against a hero for being so inconsiderate.
In m/m, I’ve read quite a few without condoms and one or two bareback first timers not using one and it pissed me off.
I think it shows the character of the character. It’s just considerate to use a condom until it’s clear that a couple is monogamous and both parties are clearly clean.
And the whole “I’m clean” doesn’t cut it for me. I think if you have sex for the first time without protection with someone who says “I’m clean” you’re a freaking idiot. So again, I’ve lost respect for a character who does that and that throws me out of a story.
I can see many authors who’ve been married and monogamous for years not thinking about it. But as a woman who lived serial monogamy through the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s and having to worry about disease and such, if a man wouldn’t use one or put up a fight about using one, see ya. Lost any respect or desire I might have had.
That’s what I want to read, characters who respect their partners enough to use one.
Just for the record here, I’m talking mainly about anal sex and condoms. I don’t think it’s an issue with BJ’s as such. Although, again, if one character is a skank and player who’s stuck his dick in everything and anything, I’d be thinking diseased prick when another character is blowing him and that would gross me out.
LVLM
I started this post by saying that this was a fun post (I do a lot of those). Next week, for example I’m writing about fantasies. When I dreamed up this idea I thought I make a number of funny comments such as
>>The book would be a hell of a lot shorter. Think of how much time the guys spend either putting one on, taking it off, tying it off<< >>The guys would not need to be constantly going out for “supplies”. No condoms = no shopping, and we all know that men hate shopping<< >>Gone would be the horrible taste of latex while performing oral sex<< However, everyone seemed to have missed the humour of the post and gone right for the jugular. The blood is just gushing! Contrary to popular belief I do believe in condom use, and as I said in an earlier comment, the reason I wrote the post is because I was throwing out or putting het books in piles to sell them on ebay and flipped through a few of them. What I noticed is that there wasn't the rigid adherence to condoms as there is in M/M even with committed couples, and I wondered if there was a double standard. I think that about 20% (could be more) of het romances have no condoms to the same degree that they exist in M/M. Just check the number of pregnancies which is a theme in het books- did all the condoms break? As I said at the top of the post, this is supposed to be fun. >>And the whole “I’m clean” doesn’t cut it for me. I think if you have sex for the first time without protection with someone who says “I’m clean” you’re a freaking idiot. So again, I’ve lost respect for a character who does that and that throws me out of a story.<< BTW using "I'm clean" in M/M romances is an insult to gay men. I did a post about this several months ago and here's a link http://www.gayromance.org/?p=6771
I guess you’re not a fan of the Adrien English series? Jake and Adrien didn’t always use condoms and neither did Jake use them with his wife to be (she became pregnant). 🙂
Hi Alexi
>>for me, condom use is such an integral part of modern day sex that if they’re not there I miss them. Plus it gives the author the chance to show deepening intimacy when the characters decide to get tested and go bare<< I understand the need for and agree that condom use in an integral part of sex today however, why the difference in het and M/M? Are these books being singled out because those in charge believe that straight women are either more discriminating with their partners OR that straight women will only read M/M if the guys used condoms? When menages with women were first introduced a couple of years ago in M/M before the sub genre blew the roof off the romance industry, the publishers were using all kinds of marketing strategies to encourage women to read these books. Having a woman in the mix seemed to do the trick for a lot of women (not me, of course) :) >>So for me, unless the author actually states that in their world there are no such things as venereal diseases (and shows the consequences of that in their story) anytime non-exclusive partners of any sex get wriggly without a condom, I assume that all parties involved are f*ckwits and throw the book across the room.<< What I like is when there's passing mention about condoms (without making a big deal about it) such as in the Adrien English series where if you blink you would miss Jake using a condom with Adrien, and we know that he didn't always. Yet everyone loves these books despite the sexual practices of these two characters. 🙂
“What I like is when there’s passing mention about condoms (without making a big deal about it) such as in the Adrien English series where if you blink you would miss Jake using a condom with Adrien, and we know that he didn’t always.”
Argh! Don’t remind me! I got so mad with Adrien and Jake when I read that they didn’t use condoms all the time! Okay…(takes deep breath)…anyway I totally agree that if condoms are going to be everywhere in m/m they should be everywhere in het too. If I ever write any het (unlikely) there will DEFINITELY be condoms in there. To me, if the characters don’t use condoms when they first get together, it says something about them – that they’re reckless, stupid, think they’re immortal, whatever. If that’s part of the story it’s fine, but if it’s not addressed it makes me mad.
I definitely lose respect for a woman who doesn’t demand one. But obviously that’s my own personal feelings on the subject, having been with a partner who (unbeknownst to me) was shagging everyone he could hold still with one hand and who would have given me a couple of nasty things if I hadn’t been insistent on condoms (and he always wanted to go without too, the utter skanky slime-drinking b*stard).
*Pant, Pant* Er…So, you can see where I stand on this one;-)
I like condoms. They don’t bother me at all in a story. I particularly like them when they contribute in some way–for example, in Little Boy Lost, Jamie’s mom saw condoms and lube and she knew exactly what was going on between Jamie and Brian–no ambiguous thoughts there. It was an important plot point. In one of the PsyCop stories, Vic was worrying about going out and buying some condoms and wondering how he got stuck with the job of being the condom purchaser. That gave me a chuckle.
A condom could show up in a historical–they’ve been around for centuries. The Romans knew they were effective in preventing disease transmission; the Greeks (and Egyptians) used them mainly for birth control. The Humble Little Condom by Aine Collier is a fun book with lots of interesting tidbits about safes, rubbers, prophylactics, or (most colorfully), French Letters.
L
Leslie
Everyone is focusing on their preference for condoms in M/M romances and missing the point I was trying to make, which is that M/F doesn’t seem to follow these rules as rigidly or we wouldn’t have as many pregnancies in these books. That aside, I thought this was supposed to be a fun post and everyone is taking it seriously as if I’m advocating no more condoms in M/M romances.
My next post about condoms will be a serious one and everyone will think it’s funny. 🙂
I mentioned earlier that Erastes had a picture of a condom used in historical times and also that some of them were washed and ironed, ready for the next use. 🙂 However, 99% of historical romances don’t mention the use of condoms. Similarly, paranormal romances don’t – by paranormal I mean vamps, dragons, weres etc. not the guys in the PsyCop series since they’re human. Same for sci fi.
I didn’t miss the funny bits! Sorry, should have mentioned that your post made me laugh too. I just thought it was interesting to have a discussion on whether there’s a double standard between m/m and het or not (there definitely is) and how you would write characters in contemp who might NOT use condoms and why (JCP brought up a really interesting point there). Sorry if it seemed like we were all dog-piling.
((HUG))
Hi Wave,
I knew you were being funny and I chuckled at your post. I was trying to be lighthearted in return–not critical. Sorry if my humor fell flat.
I mentioned Vic not as an example of a paranormal, but more because I thought it was funny that he was grumbling about becoming the condom purchaser and not sure how he got that job.
Speaking of butter and PsyCop, there was a butter lube scene in one of the books–the last one, I think–Vic also left his cellphone in the vegetable drawer in the process…LOL
As for historicals, I’d say 100% of them don’t have condoms, but they could since they have been around for a good long time. I blogged about this topic over at the Macaronis website a while ago.
L
I’d be sad if condoms disappeared because their use (or non-use) is a huge opportunity to add to the guys’ characterization. I love the complexity it brings to a story if a character knows he should be using a condom but he’s so reckless he throws caution to the wind when the pants come down. Or when a character like Crash is perfectly fine dragging his scrotum over the face of a guy he met 10 minutes ago, but if they’re gonna do the deed, then they’ve got to wrap it up.
My latest conundrum is how to handle the, “Let’s stop using condoms” stage of the relationship. In the past I’ve had characters say, “Look, here’s my blood test.” But I don’t think that’s actually realistic. I’m still mulling that over. Again, though, it’s a chance to cement the characterization and even the backstory, so it’s got to be handled right.
The thought of a publisher *dictating* that I put a condom in whether or not I want to makes me giddy with relief that I’ve chosen to forgo that publishing route.
As for public service announcements, holy hell, I hope no one reads my stories for life lessons. (Got a problem with someone? Behead them! Problem solved.)
Hi Jordan
I hope that by now everyone who is following this thread knows that I’m not advocating eliminating condom use. Having seen someone die horribly from AIDS I would be the last person to do so. However, my point about the apparent disparity between het and M/M romances seems to be over most of the bloggers’ heads.
>>Or when a character like Crash is perfectly fine dragging his scrotum over the face of a guy he met 10 minutes ago, but if they’re gonna do the deed, then they’ve got to wrap it up.<< Crash is another of my favourite characters. Are you ever going to give him his own guy and book ? He's been hanging around a long time Jordan. :) >>As for public service announcements, holy hell, I hope no one reads my stories for life lessons. (Got a problem with someone? Behead them! Problem solved.)<< Totally agree. Romances are not supposed to be PSAs.
I like my contemporary m/m romances to reflect reality, so I agree there would be times, just like in real life, where the characters wouldn’t use condoms. Maybe they’re both drunk or totally caught up in the moment or whatever. I do notice though, and I do think, “That wasn’t very smart.” But again, like real life, people don’t always make the smart choices. Like LVLM said, when that happens in an m/m book, it tends to tell me something about the character that they would take that risk or put their partner at risk. And maybe that’s a point the author is trying to make with that character. I think it’s silly that editors would force writers to have the characters use a condom every time.
I want to see condoms in m/f romances, too. I always assume there’s gonna be a baby when characters in het romances don’t use condoms. I don’t view it as a public service announcement, I think it’s just a reality of sex today. (Cough. *bats eyelashes innocently*)
I’m working on a story that takes place in part in the 60s. There’s a chapter in which two of the male characters have sex with each other. A critique partner of mine told me she cringed when she read it—how could these boys not use condoms? It was the 60s, I told her, and these guys… wouldn’t have used condoms. So it’s interesting to me that she had that reaction. And then recently my writers group had a whole conversation about whether it was okay in a story for the guys to use condoms for anal but not oral. (A point brought up by the straight guy in my group, FWIW. Oh, it’s been fun subjecting my group to my m/m stories. ;-)) But that’s a fair point, too.
Hi Kate
My point about het romance was that there didn’t seem to be the same hard and fast rules that applied to M/M, given the number of heroines who get pregnant.
Re whether your guys could catch something by not using a condom for oral, here’s what Ally Blue, who is a nurse, said in another condom debate
>>Just FYI, the risks of catching a blood-borne disease via anal sex is WAY higher than via oral sex, so using a condom for anal when you haven’t for oral is fairly common and, for most people, a reasonable choice, especially if you haven’t been tested or aren’t monogamous. Not everyone agrees, and of course if you have open sores in your mouth you should use a condom for oral too, but yeah, much lower risk there :)<< Hope that helps.
OK guys. I just want to reiterate the point I made in the post. This was supposed to be a FUN post. I’m not advocating that authors eliminate the use of condoms in M/M – far from it. I had a very good friend who died 10 years ago from AIDS complications.
The whole issue of condoms in M/M romances seem to be like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Did you guys actually read the post? No one mentioned all those wonderful points that I thought were really funny, except Tam. I also thought that the picture was kinda neat.
How about my point about no more shopping if condoms were eliminated? Guys hate shopping. How about using butter for lube? Did you see that? 🙂 My feelings are really hurt. (Not really)
This is what I said at the beginning of the post
>>Before you get all upset and everyone starts throwing things or smacking me around, which is not a nice thing to do anyway, I want to say upfront that this is a fun post, so don’t get your shorts (or lacy underthings) in a twist<< Please remember this paragraph before beating up on me. 🙂
Okay, what was that movie??? Where they used butter for anal sex lube? Last Tango In Paris, was that it? I never saw that but I heard O_O
[/rambling]
Wave, this is for you:
http://daegaer.livejournal.com/201224.html
(WARNING: Ford/Arthur slash; if you don’t know what that means, you are probably safe reading it, even though you won’t understand it. Wave, there is butter lube!)
Ally, Ally, Ally
You just saved my bacon from this ravenous horde of M/M readers who want to butter my body and shoot me into space. 🙂 One would think that condoms were food put before a bunch of hungry people the way they’re smacking me around. Don’t they have a sense of humour?
And yes, Last Tango in Paris was the movie where butter was used for lube during anal sex. I actually saw that movie. 🙂 Of course I was very young.
BTW that post was hilarious, especially handing back the sandwich to the previous owner after using it for lube. Oh Gawd! The Hitch Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy was one of my first sci fi books.
LOL Isn’t that the most awesome fanfic EVER?? I love it. LOVE. IT. They did a pretty great job of capturing Douglas Adams’ voice and everything, which is wonderfully disturbing when you’re writing Ford and Arthur f*cking on the floor. With butter! Heh.
Anyone who’s ever talked to me already knows my position on this issue. But, since Wave brought it up (hi, Wave 🙂 ) here I go again.
I don’t read enough het romance to comment on the use/non-use of condoms in those books. As far as gay romance, as a reader all I ask is that the use/non-use of condoms fit the characters as they are written. As a writer, I do my best to make sure my guys use or don’t use condoms because THAT’S WHAT THEY WOULD DO, and not for any other reason. I’ve had characters who wore condoms well into a relationship, and characters who barebacked from the start, but it was always based on who they were as people.
Personally, I don’t look at romances as fantasy, any more than any other contemporary fiction starring regular people is fantasy. I want it to be as realistic as possible. Unrealistic behavior throws me out of the story as a reader, and I do my best to avoid it as a writer. Luckily, I’ve never had an editor ask me to have characters use a condom where I didn’t want them to. I would’ve had to argue that point. Also, I’ve never had readers say anything about my characters using (or not using) condoms. Of course I don’t “aim” my books at any particular market, and my readers, as far as I can tell, seem pretty evenly split between men and women.
Hi again Ally
Thank heavens you’re not beating up on me for what was supposed a fun post that everyone took the wrong way. See if I write another fun post. Oh wait, I do have another one scheduled for next Friday.
I do understand and totally agree with your position on the use of condoms, and I think we discussed this before on a couple of occasions. I think your approach is the right one. Condom use should be based on the characters’ personalities and not on some editor dictating what should happen between the protagonists, which is what is happening today according to what authors have told me.
Currently I regard M/M romance as fantasy because that’s what the authors tell me they are when I critique their characterizations. Their position is that the characters are not supposed to be realistic so I should just shove off. OK then. I’m happy to regard every M/M book as a fantasy and don’t expect much realism, even though I still criticise the more ridiculous characters.
I’ve never before thought about the maths in regard to the total amount of condoms used in M/M. The characters in certain authors’ stories would have serious supply issues… 😉 And I expected the tough cowboys to choose the black one. Are there white condoms out there?! *lol* And thanks Wave for the mental picture of an exhausted editor checking out every dick in the story for proper clothing. 🙂
So yeah, this post is fun! 🙂
I’m with those who said that the use of condoms should be fit to the person’s character, situation and circumstances. There are so many shades of grey inbetween black and white that have the potential to add depth to a character. Just make it believable for me as a reader and I can accept it although I tend to frown or get angry more often than not in case condoms are not mentioned anywhere in the story at all.
That being said I’d like to come back to one of your major questions, Wave: “why the difference in het and M/M”?
Well, this is just a careful guess based on something that popped up in my mind immediately: prejudice. Or more precisely: a precudice born in the beginnings of HIV and it being seen as the “gay disease” (incorrectly so as statistics show) but which have had its claws deeply in the general society’s thinking and maybe so to these days, if rather undetected.
Please note: I’m far from saying that authors, editors, readers and whoever else are prejudiced this way. I meant that it could still excist in the subconscience of society in general – medical statstics, tolerance and acceptance notwithstanding – what might cause for example publishing companies and their editors to pay special attention to the use of condoms in order to prevent opening the gates and rolling out the red carpet to (bigoted) “critics”. Thus more attention is paid to this issue in m/m than in m/f.
Maybe I’m completely wrong with this, and it really is just a guess, an impulse and the result of an overly active and “suspicious” mind.
If anybody feels offended by my ramblings please ask me first before kicking my butt – I really didn’t mean to. And keep in mind I’m not a native speaker.
@Ally
You read “Purgatory” by Jet Mykles? Reese and Luc and the kitchen counter and the, well yeah, butter…? 😉
OMG, I’d forgotten! LOL. Gotta love alternative lubes *g*
It doesn`t matter if a heroine pricks holes in the condoms to get the Sheik`s baby or looses them in the desert sand. I don`t read het.
Boooring!!
How would m/m romance books look like without the condom-hassle?
Remember Family Unit by Z.A.Maxfield?
….the frantic search for the glasses in the midst of passion to read the expiration-date on the condom-wrapper?
I needed an hour to recover from a life-threatening laugh attack and be able to continue reading.
The short form of this comment?
Leave the condoms(and their wrappers)in the m/m romance genre. *g*
Hi Nichem
>>I like my contemporary m/m romances to reflect reality, so I agree there would be times, just like in real life, where the characters wouldn’t use condoms. << Exactly, but this happens all the time. >> I think it’s silly that editors would force writers to have the characters use a condom every time<< They actually do and only people like Josh Lanyon or someone of Ally's stature can get away with breaking the "every dick must have a condom" rule. 🙂
Lilli
>>I’ve never before thought about the maths in regard to the total amount of condoms used in M/M. The characters in certain authors’ stories would have serious supply issues… << See, that was the sort of thing I thought that everyone would pick up on rather than the use of condoms in M/M per se. 80 condoms used in every novel - it's lucky that these are not real or the dump sites would be overflowing. Are condoms recyclable? :) >>I’d like to come back to one of your major questions, Wave: “why the difference in het and M/M”?
Well, this is just a careful guess based on something that popped up in my mind immediately: prejudice. Or more precisely: a precudice born in the beginnings of HIV and it being seen as the “gay disease” (incorrectly so as statistics show) but which have had its claws deeply in the general society’s thinking and maybe so to these days, if rather undetected.<< I think I did indicate in my post that there was a double standard. Recent statistics have shown that the majority (upto 95%) of new HIV Poz cases are among young black women. Who is teaching them about safe sex? Young males are not as likely to be infected by the same numbers, yet every single M/M (or 98%) use condoms. No reader is criticizing the editors or publishers for not including condoms in all het romances, but if they did it in M/M the roof would fall in. It seems that readers are just as prejudiced. >>And thanks Wave for the mental picture of an exhausted editor checking out every dick in the story for proper clothing. << I had a good laugh at the editors checking every dick to make sure it was 'legal'. 🙂 @Ally You read “Purgatory” by Jet Mykles? Reese and Luc and the kitchen counter and the, well yeah, butter…? I loved that and I'm trying to remember if I did include it in my review of the book. Maybe that's what reminded me. 🙂
>>As for public service announcements, holy hell, I hope no one reads my stories for life lessons. (Got a problem with someone? Behead them! Problem solved.)<<
Gonna go reread those books with the sole intention of the life lessons thing! I never knew Fridays could be so beastly and there's some people out there begging to part company with heads! A bottle of Merlot is gonna save some lives tonight!
I need to go check out the hottie you gave me. That outta make life better.
Wave, before your thread I didn't even realize there was a difference in het and m/m romance. Ummm…I never read the het kind.
Eden
Chopping off heads was merely a figure of speech but don’t let any of Jordan’s vampires hear about this or they might come gunning for you. 🙂
Re the het books, I read those a few years ago when I reviewed for other blogs and that’s all they had. 🙁
You poor thing. Aren’t you glad there’s nice m/m reads now?
And yes, I’ve read (and loved!) Jordan’s books, and have recommended them numerous times. Would love to be able to solve my problems like that, but where would I hide the bodies? I’m vegetarian, so eating them isn’t an option.
@ JCP – funnily enough. i DO ask to see the paperwork – and incorporate the results into the ensuing, *ahem* play. :0) uhm. yeah. drew zachary did as well – in the firefighter/student series…
-kkm
KKM
That firefighter/student series would be ON FIRE. They had so much sex the bed should have been on fire. 🙂
My first thought when I saw the pic for the article, without looking at the title, was that those were weird-looking socks. I knit socks, I’m knitting one at the moment when I’m not typing.
Condoms sure look different when they hang like that. XDD
As usual, a very interesting post that makes me think.
I think it’s good that people use condoms more now and that it’s reflected in fiction, at least in m/m fiction, I’m kind of happy I don’t read f/m romance.
Lube and condoms in stories can be sensual and it can show a lot of tenderness.
I know many don’t like it and that they think it disturbs the flow of the story and all that.
It’s fairly obvious when an author feels awkward about condoms in general, the whole thing becomes silly.
I’m always wondering why characters don’t test themselves regularly in stories.
In Sweden we have grown up with RFSU, the Swedish Organization for Sexual education and perhaps a little brainwashed by them too. XD
They usually have summer campaigns on condoms to prevent venereal diseases, not for birth control. Recently there has been a lot of talk about chlamydia.
“What – you want me to believe that you’re a feisty modern woman who’s in control of your life, but you don’t CARE if you catch something that might leave you sterile or possibly kill you? No glove, no love, idiot! What did your mama teach you?”
This makes me happy I don’t read f/m romance because there are just too many weird ideals in them that don’t seem healthy.
There is nothing modern about ignoring condoms and also, BIRTH CONTROL, BIRTH CONTROL! *dies*
Ahem.
“Are condoms recyclable?”
You know, I totally thought about this in a serious way. 😀
Vivia
Thanks for a very thoughtful response to what started out as a fun post.
Everyone is pissed at me because I tried to make fun of condoms, starting with the clothesline. Why is everyone so touchy? These are books. No one is teaching life lessons by M/M books. Very few gay men read them and those who do I’m sure know all about safe sex. It’s the women who it seems didn’t get the memo and are now a very unpleasant statistic because they are now the new face of HIV.
I don’t read het anymore but did up to a couple of years ago, and as I said in an early comment I was sorting some of my het romances before throwing them out or putting them on ebay and flipped through them, when I realized that there wasn’t a condom in sight in some of the books. It seems like there is some form of discrimination against M/M. Are the readers afraid of getting HIV by reading these books if the guys don’t wear a condom?
>>I’m always wondering why characters don’t test themselves regularly in stories.<>“Are condoms recyclable?”
You know, I totally thought about this in a serious way.<<
LOL
Sorry about the derailing of a fun post, I still think it’s a funny and interesting one and I think the pic is awesome.
Post like this needs to be written because it challenges our view of m/m and beyond.
I love this site because it always exposes all the weird and silly stuff of the genre in an entertaining way.
I also would like to make clear that I would buy a book even if it is condomless. 😀
It does makes me a happy when people use them in stories but don’t make a fuss of it, just mention it and move on.
I’ve read Stealing Life, a sci-fi by T.A Chase, and there is sex in every other page in that book. No condoms in sight, “it’s the FUTURE” and it didn’t bother me.
M/M shouldn’t be used as a public service announcement. If writers and editors still want to put condoms with that intention in mind I hope this post makes them think twice.
It only makes me think of how little they know of venereal diseases and how their minds are stuck in the 80’s. Save the characters monies! XD
It’s rather clear that contemporary m/m compared to het romance is a marvel of enlightenment and modernity.
“Condoms in m/m romances are like black leather pants in paranormals and urban fantasy. Ain’t no way the supply could meet the demand. :)”
Lol!
Guh, my mind went directly to the Anita Blake series, I have blissfully forgotten most of stories, there is an endless list of things to mock in paranormals and urban fantasy.
Another long comment.
Vivia
You are so funny. 🙂
I really tried to hold up the sacred cow of M/M romance, i.e. the condom, to a bit of sober second thought by writing what I thought was a funny post. The question was – who are the authors doing this for? Only a couple authors (I think Fae Sutherland was one of them) were honest in admitting that this was mostly for the editors, who insist on condoms in books dealing with gay men having sex.
Men don’t look to M/M romance to teach them about safe sex, they already know about it, and it seems that they are doing much better in this area than women, going by the latest statistics.
>>M/M shouldn’t be used as a public service announcement. If writers and editors still want to put condoms with that intention in mind I hope this post makes them think twice.
It only makes me think of how little they know of venereal diseases and how their minds are stuck in the 80’s. Save the characters monies! XD << It's like going to the movies and having to watch all of the commercials before the movie that you paid for starts ... 20 minutes later. I'm glad you enjoyed the post and I love paranormals for many reasons including the fact that there are no condom ads. 🙂
Condoms in m/m romances are like black leather pants in paranormals and urban fantasy. Ain’t no way the supply could meet the demand. 🙂
—————–
But! If a book (het or m/m) is tagged as a contemporary and no condoms are used, it pulls me out of the story (unless it’s been addressed in some way). I’ve actually noticed a fair amount of condom use in contemporary het, although, to be fair, I’ve not read much of that in the past eight months. However, I do remember noting in a review of a Rachel Gibson romance that you’d better put your boy in double condoms before you did the deed, because the number of broken condoms in RG’s books… :O
Wave, first, you should never assume no one is getting a life lesson from these books. Everything I know about sex I learned from reading Susan Brownmiller, John Norman, Krafft-Ebing’s Psychopathia Sexualis and romance novels “full of rape and adjectives.” So yes, PSA is valid. The life you save may be your son’s.
~
The post wasn’t funny. Sorry. Satire is one of those dicey genres that might or might not work.
~
Even in het romances, the condoms don’t always work. I’ve read at least 2 where she got pregnant anyway.
~
And the most popular condom color? Purple. Followed by blue and red. Least popular orange and yellow. This is a totally unscientific observation based on handing out colored condoms at Pride.
Angelia
>>Wave, first, you should never assume no one is getting a life lesson from these books<< I read these books for entertainment and I assume that all other adults do as well. I never looked for life lessons from romance books even when I was a teenager. I read all genres from horror to sci fi to paranormals to romance to general fiction and I only take non fiction books seriously, the rest are strictly for entertainment. >>The post wasn’t funny. Sorry. Satire is one of those dicey genres that might or might not work.<< In my opinion it was funny. However I recognize that personal taste varies so you're entitled to your opinion. >>Even in het romances, the condoms don’t always work. I’ve read at least 2 where she got pregnant anyway.<< A nice way of saying that the author used the old "oh the condom broke" ploy to get the heroine pregnant. Next week's post might be even more controversial because I'm talking about fantasies.
Huh. WordPress ate my post the first time around, so I’ll try again (damn you WordPress! You know it’s never as good when you try to write it the second time!).
No offense to you at all Angelia – you are of course entitled to see your work exactly as you want – but I don’t write with kids in mind. I write for adults. If a kid sneaks one of my books, I hope they enjoy it, but I neither know nor care whether they are educated by it. It is up to a child’s parents to teach them about sex safe – I have no obligation to do so. Whether condoms show up in my love scenes or not is dependent on me and my characters. If I wanted to be responsible for teaching children about sex, I’d be a teacher, not an erotic novelist.
I did find Wave’s post very funny, personally. Not to mention that I now have the condom version of ‘Imagine’ stuck in my head. It would be a strange world if we were all the same, after all:-)
Hi Alexi
>>I did find Wave’s post very funny, personally. Not to mention that I now have the condom version of ‘Imagine’ stuck in my head.<< Thanks for this. Parents are responsible for their kids and I refuse to take responsibility if they (the kids) get into material they shouldn't see. There is something called password protection which should stop your kids from getting into your documents. If you're irresponsible or careless then it's your fault for allowing your children to see material meant for adults. Enuf said.
Angelina Sparrow
Life lessons from a romance/fiction novel ?
Oh,please….
I want to learn something about sex?
I read a guidebook or a woman`s magazine!!
Sometimes the sex in erotic romance/fiction is simply infeasible – based on the authors fantasy/imaginativeness. Surely NOT advice for real life.
I´m mature – I know that!
And yes, the post IS funny.From the first to the last word clearly not meant to be serious.
Phew..
I´m out of steam.
simsala, NOW you do. What did you do when you were 12 or 15?
And if you don’t think the kids are sneaking this stuff like we snuck romance novels, you’re not raising kids.
Angelina,
1.)The authors are writing for an adult audience and not for sneaking kids.
2.)If I had 12 year old kids at home and they are able to sneak in my erotic literature I`m doing something entirely wrong.
3.)My daughter is 18 and she knows (for years) that – despite movies,television,internet-porn,fan-fiction,slash,friends,mothers (and
fathers )erotic literature and the existing sex-life of her parents – condoms are absolutely necessary in real life for one-night stands and new relationships to prevent her from AIDS and
other diseases.
Have I fulfilled my duty as a loving and caring mother ?? I think so.
4.)Now you should read Wave`s post one more time; thoroughly ! She writes about something enterily different.
Chris
>>Condoms in m/m romances are like black leather pants in paranormals and urban fantasy. Ain’t no way the supply could meet the demand<< I love this. May I use this quote sometime? :) >>However, I do remember noting in a review of a Rachel Gibson romance that you’d better put your boy in double condoms before you did the deed, because the number of broken condoms in RG’s books… :O<< Isn't it incredible that het authors are still using this ploy to get their 'girl' pregnant? Another reason why I no longer read het. I would have thought that they could come up with something original by now. Thanks for reading the post. 🙂
LOL – I would be honoured, should you choose to quote my words!
This is the last general comment I will make about this post.
It seems that many of you have lost your sense of humour on your way to outrage that I would dare suggest IN FUN that we IMAGINE a world without condoms.
If you READ the post at all before being blinded by the word “condom” you will see that nowhere do I suggest that we seriously consider abandoning condoms in M/M books. However I did pose the question of why there was such a difference in M/M which I regard as “condomland,” and het erotic romance, where no one seems to mind that there are fewer condoms, judging by the large percentage of heroines who get pregnant. Many of you suggested that this was because “the condom broke.” This is the oldest ploy used by authors, if that was indeed the real reason why the heroines ended up pregnant. I’ve read enough of these books over the years to know that it isn’t. If that many condoms broke in real life the particular condom manufacturer would be out of business.
We make fun of serious topics such as death, but touching a condom in M/M romances, even figuratively, seems to bring out the campaigners for safe sex. I have many gay friends and they are very aware of the need for and practice safe sex, and I would venture to say that they don’t need M/M authors to teach them about this subject. The latest statistics seem to bear out that the majority of gay men practice safe sex. Conversely the same cannot be said to be true about young women, going by these same statistics. Perhaps your vigilance is misplaced and should be directed to another sub genre of erotic books – heterosexual romances. We should all be concerned about HIV AIDS as well as other STDs, but I would venture to suggest that your target is misplaced.
I don’t believe that M/M romances should be used for public service announcements for safe sex or advertisements for anything else. We buy these books for the stories not the ‘message,’ and I hope we read them for pleasure and relaxation. If the intent of the publishers, editors and authors is to preach about safe sex perhaps they should consider that about 95% of the readers are women, not gay men, and if they want to direct their audience to literature about safe sex there are many organizations that provide that service, both online and in person. If you’re personally offended when there’s no condom, don’t discriminate against romances between gay men, be just as vigilant if you read het romances and find that the heroines are getting pregnant with regularity.
Just a few years ago many straight women would not admit that they read M/M romances because they felt it was something to be ashamed of. Publishers introduced menages with women to make readers feel a little bit better about reading these books because if a woman was in the mix that made it OK, and it worked as a marketing strategy. Sales went through the roof except for people like me who like my M/M without women. However it seems that many of you still feel that gay men having sex is dirty despite the fact that we read books about the topic. The word “clean” continues to be used by authors with reference to a gay man’s sero status, despite how this denigrates those same gay men they write about.
My last point is that it is not my job to protect your children and young adults. You should use another form of protection to ensure that they don’t have access to your erotic literature – password protection. It’s very easy to use, costs nothing, and demonstrates a sense of responsibility.
This post seems to have opened up a nerve among many of you but that won’t stop me from posting on other touchy subjects.
*jumping off my soapbox now*
I missed this post until today when Wave mentioned it in her ‘what’s ahead this week’ post. So I went back to Friday and read the post and laughed and agreed with most of what she blogged about. Then I read the replies. Wow! Some of you can’t take a joke, can you? It’s not as though m/m romance stories are about real life. It’s an escape. It’s fiction! So what if the characters use condoms or not. If the author wishes to write it in, go for it. If not, fine with me.
I can’t believe that some of you think m/m romance should/could be a teaching guide for younger people. Really? Again, let me repeat, it’s fiction, it’s not real. Let’s look at a paranormal story and set the gay sex aside for a minute. You want them to think that reading minds, changing from man to beast, having the sex drive of a superhuman is real? You can’t take one aspect of a story and think that is a teachable moment and leave out 75% of the rest. Some of these characters are immune to death itself. Is that a ‘teachable’ moment?
A very valid point Wave made over and over again is double standard of gay, m/m romance as compared to het romance. It is expected that the gay characters will wear condoms, but straights don’t have to? WTF!! I don’t get that mindset at all. All you m/m authors are being discriminated against. Especially if your editor is pressuring you to rewrite a scene to include condoms. Again, if you want your characters to wear them, please write it in. But if you do, please don’t have them wear a condom during oral sex. Have you ever tried sucking cock with condom on it? Ok, if you don’t have access to a real life dick to experiment on, or aren’t attracted to men, try it with a dildo. Ichy, ichy, ichy……….YUCK!!
One other place I see this double standard plainly is in videos. If the video is not from a bareback company, then gay men fuck each other and use condoms. End of story. No argument there. But have you watched straight porn lately? How many straight men fuck these straight women with condoms? I watch very little straight porn, just sometimes to watch different guys. I can’t remember the last time I saw straight porn with condom usage. I thought condoms helped prevent disease? Do these straight porn companies care so little about their actors and actresses?
And one more thing, I love all you women writing this m/m romance. I used to not believe that a woman could write gay sex and make it sound believable, but you do. You have very active imaginations and you research the topic well. But you’re writing fiction. You’re not writing a gay sex manual with the appropriate chapters on safe and safer sex. I can only speak for myself, a gay man that loves m/m romance, but I’m not reading it for an education. I’m reading it for an escape. I read it the way I read Louis L’Amour or Tom Clancy.
Thanks Wave for this topic. You’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that we need to lighten up. Oh, but it’s politically incorrect to laugh about condoms……..
Hi John
>>Thanks Wave for this topic. You’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that we need to lighten up. Oh, but it’s politically incorrect to laugh about condoms……..<< I sure was bitch slapped about this post. Where were you on Friday my friend when I needed you? :) >>Wow! Some of you can’t take a joke, can you? It’s not as though m/m romance stories are about real life. It’s an escape. It’s fiction! So what if the characters use condoms or not. If the author wishes to write it in, go for it. If not, fine with me.<< That was the point I was trying to make. When I hear that editors insist that the authors put raincoats on their guys it boggles my mind. :( >>A very valid point Wave made over and over again is double standard of gay, m/m romance as compared to het romance. It is expected that the gay characters will wear condoms, but straights don’t have to? WTF!! I don’t get that mindset at all. << I get the distinct impression that even though gay romance is 'accepted' there are certain conditions attached to that acceptance. It seems that most straight women will only read these books if the publishers ensure that the guys always wear protection. Since when are we the "condom police?" Straight erotic romance i.e. het, gets a pass because of course the characters are all "disease free" but the reverse is assumed for the gay men in M/M. Discrimination? You be the judge!! >>Again, if you want your characters to wear them, please write it in. But if you do, please don’t have them wear a condom during oral sex. Have you ever tried sucking cock with condom on it? Ok, if you don’t have access to a real life dick to experiment on, or aren’t attracted to men, try it with a dildo. Ichy, ichy, ichy……….YUCK!!<< Another valid point John. However I don't think that the editors and authors will listen and you'll see more and more of these books with characters using condoms for oral sex. >>One other place I see this double standard plainly is in videos. If the video is not from a bareback company, then gay men fuck each other and use condoms. End of story. No argument there. But have you watched straight porn lately? How many straight men fuck these straight women with condoms? << I'm sure that these same women who demand condoms on gay men in books are not as discriminating when it comes to straight porn videos. I don't believe I have heard any complaints from other women about straight porn videos where very few condoms are used, even though many of them buy straight porn. I find it amazing that a post that I said from the outset was imaginary and fun, caused this firestorm and demonstrated that although straight women have moved the yardstick a little as regards gay men having sex in books, the prejudice against gay couples as opposed to straight couples is still alive. Why else aren't there protests about the lack of condoms in straight erotica? Thanks John. See you on Friday. 🙂
Hear hear!
It’s same blame the gays thing here.
John, I noticed the double standard of the condom in straight porn right away.
I then came across an interview with a former porn actress and it seems very little has changed because the statistics are in epidemic proportions and also, female, so yeah.
http://www.shelleylubben.com/
Disclaimer, she is Christian and her site has religious content but if you can get passed the “porn is sinful” there is much information.
The porn industry is seriously fucked up which I keep in mind when I watch straight porn, not my fav because there is so much to complain about.
“But think of all the condoms that would end up being recycled (no one can tell me if it’s possible to recycle condoms, so I’m assuming they are recyclable) thereby creating new jobs. 🙂 Who gets the job of washing them I wonder, BEFORE they are recycled??? 🙂
>>(But oh, I have so many serious thoughts on the topic….)< <"
Everytime I see a condom or a pack lying around in the streets I have those thoughts and about the littering, I can’t stop myself. Especially since condoms are pretty much indestructible. Which brings me to this:
Broken condoms, oh that’s believable. What is this, the 60’s?! XD There is a reason condoms are expensive.
LOL! What have I written?!
Beware of bad English and wording!
That’s what happens when I try to write a comment in a rush. XD
Wave: I was amused 😉 but find it difficult to quell my serious thoughts on the subject. No doubt other people got a laugh from your post…but still wanted to reply to the underlying serious part, too. It’s very difficult not to (for me, anyway). But I’ll restrain myself and just say…
…are you trying to destroy the latex industry?! So many people out of jobs if condoms weren’t used in M/M books! 😉 Why, the books where they only use condoms for fucking–not for sucking–takes money out of condom-makers’ pockets. Won’t someone please think of the condom manufacturers?!
(But oh, I have so many serious thoughts on the topic….)
Hi Kendall
>>…are you trying to destroy the latex industry?! So many people out of jobs if condoms weren’t used in M/M books! << But think of all the condoms that would end up being recycled (no one can tell me if it's possible to recycle condoms, so I'm assuming they are recyclable) thereby creating new jobs. :) Who gets the job of washing them I wonder, BEFORE they are recycled??? :) >>(But oh, I have so many serious thoughts on the topic….)<< I, too, have many serious thoughts on the subject since a very good friend died from HIV AIDS about 10 years ago; I would be the last person to advocate the elimination of condom use in RL. I'm glad you could see the humour in the post. 🙂
Wave – I never comment, but I wanted to say that your post cracked me up. Reminded me of the “one-two-three and you’re in” post from a while back.
I love M/M and find many aspects of the characters and situations to be very authentic, but I agree with you – much of what I read in M/M is not like real life. I grew up in SF and used to live with a bunch of gay guys. Their lives (and that of all my gay friends now) were nothing like those of the men in M/M. However, I lived in the Castro, which maybe was less representative of the norm? I mean, we had a condom dispenser (yeah, like Pez) in the hall and we’d all take turns buying the most outrageous ones we could find to sneak into the mix.
In my M/M romance, I like to know the guys I’m reading about are safe, bit I don’t need to be reminded in EVERY scene. But that’s me, and I get that others disagree.
Regarding the double standard in het vs. gay romance – In books, I’m seeing more condoms in het romance, but by no means is it the norm like it is in M/M. I also see a huge double standard in porn. There’s a stigma in gay porn about barebacking – several gay porn actors have blogged about being blackballed by the major studios after doing bareback. On the other hand, the heads of some major het studios (Vivid for one) are actively opposing mandatory condom rules in CA.
Anyway…your post cracked me up. And after reading all the comments, I can see where others are coming from, but still you made me laugh.
Hi Kel
>>Wave – I never comment, but I wanted to say that your post cracked me up<< That was my intention - to give everyone a few laughs about seeing the other side of condoms in M/M. However I didn't realize that this was a sacred cow that no one could joke about. As I said earlier, we joke about death, religion and many other touchy subjects, but dare to joke about condoms? You take your life in your hands. >>I grew up in SF and used to live with a bunch of gay guys. Their lives (and that of all my gay friends now) were nothing like those of the men in M/M.<< I live in Toronto which has a large gay population, probably the largest outside of SF, and my gay friends crack up every time I make them read an M/M book to give me their opinions about certain situations. Books are fiction but the M/M authors keep saying that even though they ARE fiction the characters are as realistic as they can make them, yet many gay men don't find them believable.
First off, wicked awesome post! Now you’ve got me thinking about what it would be like without condoms. I wonder if they would go back to using animal skins or parts of animals you really do not want to use.
The dialogues would indeed be interesting. Hmmm imagine all the frustrated characters, having to wait and all that!
I honestly can’t remember reading a book where they use any other sort of condom than the basic latex one. *thinks* Hmmmm
Second off: me? Not know the Beatles? of course I know them! I might be in my hair band/glam rock (yum men in tight leather pants!!! who can sing reaaaaly high) phase, but I know my classics! Though I perfer the Rolling Stones *grin* And I am 27 not that young 😉
*goes off to explain to collegues why she’s laughing so hard*
Hi Larissa
I’m glad to know that you’re aware of the Beatles. I could have bet the price of a Starbucks double latte (which is not cheap) that you were too young to know. You and I think alike in terms of the Stones – they are my #1 group and I can’t remember how many times I’ve seen them in concert, they’re still great. Although I think they should stop touring now. 🙂
I’m pleaased that you liked the post. You appear to one of the few people who realized that this was supposed to be a fun post and not to be taken seriously. The picture of the editors checking to ensure that every cock had a jacket was really hilarious. Come to think of it, maybe that’s why they don’t have time to do any actual editing, going by a couple of recent books I read. I won’t say who the publisher is but it comes back to the point you made on Val’s post today about all those editorial errors.
Have a good day and drop by again real soon. 🙂
Ha now that my screen is facing the wall, that shouldn’t be a problem 😉
How could they not see the fun? I’ve been amused all afternoon and visualized dialogues with characters about condoms. Too much fun. I also got wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much information of a colleague about his use of different condoms (man so did now want to know that, but I should have kept my mouth shut)
I didn’t read all the comments, but I’m surprised that there are editors who are anal (yes pun intended) about the use of condoms. Almost makes me want to write a story in with some condom fun 😛 They should indeed focus more on the growing mistakes and the rise of some dubious themes like non-con with elaborate scenes. Though I have yet to make up my mind about m-preg…
Hi Larissa
Sorry I didn’t see this comment earlier. There is something wrong with my “notification” system from WordPress.
This was intended to get readers to let their hair down and have a bit of fun/. We all know about the dangers of HIV AIDS and that there is no cure and I would be the last person that would recommend barebacking but it seems that readers get all hot under the collar about condoms in M/M romances but not het romances.
I’m glad you had fun with the post. You at least have a sense of humour. And yes, the editors make the authors add condoms whenever they forget unless they are someone of the stature of say a Josh Lanyon.
Show your work colleague the picture of the condoms in the post. 🙂
Hi Wave. Not to revive a dead thread but I feel like I should comment since it was me who initially mentioned having an editor ask to add a condom. I’m not sure where the idea that it had to do with the ‘stature’ of the author came from, but that is not actually the case. It has to do with publisher house style. It depends on who you’re published with. I know NY authors who have the same issue, because the publisher’s house style requires it.
Different publishers have different rules. It can also have to do with the editor at said publishing house. Some are more apt to bend the rules a bit and others are more strict. It has nothing to do with an author’s ‘stature’. Just to clarify.
We had a whole discussion on the Kindle Smut group at Goodreads about the lack of condoms in Babysitting the Baumgartners where a couple seduces the babysitter. Lots of people are icked out by underage sex and tons of people were disgusted that the couple never used condoms with the teenage babysitter. I think use should be mentioned the first time and we will infer it the rest of the time.
I have a friend that works at county hospital that tells me there are still too many AIDS patients. I have had heated discussions with friends that didn’t want to take their daughters for that anti-cancer shot. (Forget the name right now.) For some reason they think getting their daughter protection from some types of cervical cancer will turn her into a slut. (Shakes head) Some people could use a good slap to engage their brain.
Hi
HIV AIDS is a deadly disease and we should all protect ourselves against it. However, what I’m talking about in this post is a fantasy that has nothing to do with reality.
Teenage babysitters having sex without condoms is a whole different can of worms. Any show that promotes that would be totally irresponsible.
Fae
This thread is not dead. I’m still getting emails from pissed off readers.
Thanks for the clarification. However, I noticed that a few writers who I will not name don’t always have their guys use a condom even when other authors with the same publisher have to stick to the “must have a condom” rule. So I’m assuming that it’s either because they have been with a particular editor for a long time who is apt to overlook it, or they have some sort of stature with that publisher.
The real question that no author has answered satisfactorily is why there are different rules for het than for M/M romances with regard to condom use. Is it that the editors and publishers consider all gay men to be “suspicious” as regards their sexual history, so they will be more likely to have some sort of STD, while women are considered safe? I used to read a lot of het romances before I switched forever 🙂 to M/M and I did notice that there was no hard and fast rule for condom use in het. All of those same readers who demand that gay men in M/M wear a condom are not as strict for het. I wonder why?