When I asked your views about M/M erotic romances a few weeks ago here is what one of you had to say about short stories:
“I’d like there to be a plethora of longer, meatier (stop it!) books, ……….I’ve pretty much given up shorts, shots, sips, naps, nibbles, etc. I am always disappointed”
This was a constant refrain from many of you because the “insta love” in these books was just not credible.
While I agree wholeheartedly with your criticisms because I, too, am often disappointed by short M/M stories, I remember reading Brokeback Mountain which was only 35 pages but had such an amazing impact on me and thousands, maybe millions of readers.
So, is it the skill of the writer or the format being used for M/M books, or a bit of both, that are the root causes of all of these unsatisfactory books? Many M/M publishers promote short stories because they can be written and published within weeks or a couple of months, and some readers love them because they are a quick read between dinner and going to bed. But even those who like short stories (5 – 10K) complain that they seem to be written in a hurry to make a quick buck. There is also the same dissatisfaction with novellas and that is inexcusable because authors have upto 30K in which to make their stories enjoyable and deliver an ending that’s believable, but many of them fail to take advantage of the extra word count and end up with a book that no one will read more than once. Invariably, when I read M/M short stories I end up wanting to throw them against the wall because most of the authors forget that regardless of the length, readers need a plot, two characters that will move us, some good prose and dialogue (maybe even funny dialogue) and an ending that we can believe. Does it make sense to you, authors, that two guys will meet and in the space of 24 or 48 hours they will fall in love instantly and move in together or head to the altar?
I must admit that recently I have come to dislike short M/M stories because many of them leave me asking the question – “Is this all there is?” It’s my opinion that the authors try to cram too much plot (let’s not even talk about the amount of sex) into the word count and when they run out of words they squeeze in a HEA on the last page because they know that without that all important HEA or HFN, the chances of readers recommending their books to friends who read romance are just about nil. So they race to the finish line with an improbable ending that no one believes, but does satisfy the criteria of being a romance.
Writing enjoyable short stories requires a great deal of skill, probably more than novels, and I don’t believe that many writers have acquired that skill to deliver shorts that grab your attention from the first page and when you read “The End” you want to beg the characters to stay because you love them and the plot so much. I remember reading a Sip by Clare London almost 2 years ago called Deep Cover (this was the first book I had read by this author) and I was so impressed at what she was able to do with 16 pages that she became an auto buy.
I believe that most authors make the mistake of thinking that writing short stories is just like writing a novel and approach them the same way; they do a poor job for the simple reason that these are completely different formats. In short stories readers do not have the luxury of getting to know the characters over an extended period of a several hours, bonding with them, and understanding a complicated plot which is usually too intricate for such a limited word count, and they end up dissatisfied with the product. That’s my view anyway. 🙂
I think that if these ‘shorts’ don’t improve in content, characterization, plot, dialogue and prose, and do not depend on just sex to sell them, more readers will become disenchanted and stop buying them.
So what do you think readers? Authors your views are very important because you are readers too – what do you think?
Wave, perfect summation of why I hate shorter books. I don’t bother with 5-10k books. I prefer 50k+ books, but I will purchase books that are shorter only because if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have much to read! I have found the best shorter stories are the ones in which there is already a history between the main characters. Not necessarily a history that we readers have read about, but the knowledge that the characters have known each other for a period of time. I have a very hard time believing people can fall in love over a few days. Lust, yes, love, not so much!
Hi Kathy
Lately more and more readers are crying out for longer stories because what we have been getting is so unsatisfactory.
I still believe that shorts can be well written and enjoyable if authors will only take the time to give us real stories with all the elements that we expect in a novel. Short stories are not just nips, nibbles and sips – they are stories!
>>I have found the best shorter stories are the ones in which there is already a history between the main characters. Not necessarily a history that we readers have read about, but the knowledge that the characters have known each other for a period of time<< That's an excellent point and a few authors are trying that as a strategy.
I prefer shorter books because I don’t have to interrupt my reading. I hate taking 3 days to read a book. Read for an hour, stop, read for 2 hours, stop, skip a day, read for 3 hours. I’ve practically forgotten what I read 4 days ago. I like shorts because I can sit and read it in 1-3 hours and be done. Start to finish, no interruptions.
I do read longer books obviously, but I love shorts and novellas. I do NOT expect a HEA. I think two people meeting and saying “let’s try dating” is good enough for a short. I don’t expecty 20 pages to cover meeting to married and kids in the suburbs. I expect it to cover Friday night to Sunday with an ending of “I like you” and leave it to me to decide whether they live HEA or for 6 months and move on.
Hi Tam
I, too, like shorts if they are well written but most of them (that I’ve read anyway), seem to have the problems outlined in the post.
A book doesn’t have to be 400 pages to be enjoyable – some of them are just plain boring and I wished they would have ended a lot sooner. 🙁 However most of the comments in the poll seem to agree that the shorter stories are unsatisfactory, and there were too many reasons listed to mention here.
Shorts do serve a purpose and I mentioned a couple that I have enjoyed, but the majority that I have read recently were either DNF or I couldn’t wait to finish because they were so bad.
M/M Authors seem to believe that their guys must be on their way to the altar or living together by the end of their 5 – 10K story, which really stretches credibility.
I’ve been meaning to ask you because I know that you occasionally read het – are there as many shorts in that sub genre or is this an M/M thing?
Nope, don’t read het anymore. And only in paper form before I discovered e-books. No shorts in that format, no idea about e-books but I presume so.
I guess I read tons of shorts and I’ve never found the problems that people seem to find endemic. Sure some suck, some 400 page books suck, but I’m a pretty forgiving reader. I don’t expect or want a pulitzer prize winning book everytime I sit down to read. I don’t want a steak and lobster dinner everytime I sit down to dine. Sometimes a quarter pounder from McD’s is exactly what I need and want. So maybe I’m just not as particular as many readers.
Wave, I can answer that question because I read het too. Yes, it’s a problem in het romances as well! And it has been for years.
Wave asks: I’ve been meaning to ask you because I know that you occasionally read het – are there as many shorts in that sub genre or is this an M/M thing?
I
Hi Kathy
Thanks for the information. It’s good to know that misery does have company in this area.:)
Great topic, Wave! This fits in really well with Kassa’s discussion today over on Three Dollar Bill Reviews Too Much of a Good Thing about how we readers are getting so overwhelmed with all the m/m books published nowadays that we can’t keep up.
Even before I discovered m/m ebooks, I’ve never really liked short stories for all those reasons you mentioned (with Brokeback Mountain as an exception), and I like them even less now that I’m trying to keep up with most of what’s being published in our genre.
There is so much to read these days that I’ve had to prioritize, and the first thing to get eliminated from my reading list was almost every fiction less than 20K words in total.
There is just no emotional / escapist payoff in most short stories and novelettes. Especially in erotic romance. The mandatory sex scene(s) has to go in there somewhere, and that leaves even less room for plot, characterization, and dialog (and I love funny dialog, too).
I think you’re totally right about new writers assuming that short-story writing is easy because it’s shorter, but it’s actually much more difficult and it’s a completely different type of writing. I couldn’t do it.
I also think what Kathy B. said is very perceptive. It solves a lot of problems when writing short fiction if the characters already have a history. Then, at least, a HEA or HFN ending can be realistically done rather than taking two guys from meet to marriage in 16 pages. 🙂
Hi Val
>>Even before I discovered m/m ebooks, I’ve never really liked short stories for all those reasons you mentioned (with Brokeback Mountain as an exception), and I like them even less now that I’m trying to keep up with most of what’s being published in our genre.<< I understand the lure of the short story when you’re pressed for time and just want to escape, so I’m not saying that short stories are not a viable option for those who like them. I do. However, what we are being fed these days are stories that make no sense, with characters that no one can relate to, non existent plots and incredible (not in a good way) endings. Obviously we all discriminate in reading matter simply because we don’t have the time to read the vast majority of M/M books that are being released every week. Otherwise we will all go mad. What I’m concerned about is the ever increasing amount of crappy short stories that readers are buying. What message is that sending? That we will accept anything as long as it’s in the M/M sub genre. The problem is that this is going to get a whole lot worse with the number of new M/M authors jumping on the bandwagon every day, and the het authors who are jumping ship because they have heard that there’s more money to be made in M/M. I’m hoping that M/M authors who write short stories will read some of the comments about ways to make short stories work, and over time we will end up with a much better product.
Do not like them, no no no. That said of course, Murphy always tosses in some exception to the rule. As noted, writing shorts is a different skill set than writing a book and very few authors make the transition well. Personally, I avoid shorts (anthologies, collections, mammoths, etc) whenever possible.
In a perfect reading world all my favorite m/m books would be over 100 pages. BUT some of the best stories I’ve read have been shorter than 50 pages.
I was recently blown away by S. Blaise’s short story in Curious Anthology. Wow just wow. Also, Sean Kennedy’s I Fell in Love with a Zombie. I think as a reader, my only issue with shorter stories is I just don’t want them to end. Like ever 😉
Hi KC
>>I was recently blown away by S. Blaise’s short story in Curious Anthology. Wow just wow. Also, Sean Kennedy’s I Fell in Love with a Zombie. << I haven't yet read this anthology but I intend to because that's how I find new to me authors whose writing I like. I think Sean's story falls more into the category of a novella or a novellette since it's 75 pages and most of the 'shorts' I'm talking about are betwen 20 - 35 pages approximately. For me it's unforgivable if an author can't write a story with all the elements readers look for in a novella length story, without rushing to the finish line because they have exceeded the number of words allowed by the publisher. For a novella the word count can go as high as 30K while a short typically contans 5K - 10K words.
I am not the person to ask about shorts because it is not my thing period. I have read some of course over the years but they are just too … short. I finish them to quickly to get any enjoyment out of them most of the time.
Hey Ingrid
I know how you feel about shorts. 🙂 I’m going to send you a 450 page book for your birthday as soon as I can find one. As a matter of fact I have a couple of them to read and review and I haven’t even cracked them open yet because I’m afraid that I’ll come to the end and find that they are disappointing too. 🙁
“I believe that most authors make the mistake of thinking that writing short stories is just like writing a novel and approach them the same way; they do a poor job for the simple reason that these are completely different formats.”
Oh my god. A-FUCKING-MEN.
Short stories are so hard. I’ve written five pieces under 20k, and the shorter you go, the more hell it is in my opinion. It’s a good mental workout, and it can teach you tons about structure and character, but yes, it is HARD WORK.
I also think some people have a skill for short and some don’t. And no, short works are not the same as novels. Novels are not just long short stories, and short stories are not short novels. I think it’s even harder if you’re writing a short *romance*. The only way I’ve made it work is to basically bring the reader in on a relationship that has already had several acts and we’re essentially entering the story at the climax (pardon the pun). Which requires finesse of its own, to get the right hooks in place.
Well, the other way is “special circumstances,” of which the handiest is magic. But yes. It’s very hard. And different.
So, basically, a very wordy “AMEN.”
Hi Heidi
As a reader even I can recognize the difference in writing novels and writing short stories, so I can’t understand why so many writers treat short stories as shorter novels. I agree, they are damn hard to write, yet so many M/M authors are hell bent on writing ‘shorts.’
As Kathy said, perhaps the only way these books can work is to bring the reader into the tail end of a continuing romance. I’m so glad to hear you say that that’s what you try to do, because I feel that’s the only way the “insta love” will be believable.
Heidi, you’re my hero!! Seriously, as a reader, I appreciate that you recognize the problem with short stories, and most important, you try to avoid those problems. You’re always an auto buy for me (total fangirl moment!)
I really like well-written shorts – for me, they’re a great palate cleanser between longer books. Alas, there are a lot more poorly written shorts out there than well-written ones.
Hi Chris
As you said, there are a whole lot of poorly written shorts than well written ones. Yet we continue to buy them and the authors think that they are giving us what we want. Maybe if enough of us pass the word along about the badly written books, the authors will be forced to improve.
I do think it takes a great skill set to write an effective short story, and maybe that’s where the problem really is. So many of the “shorts” are really more like “scenes.” I think those can be good when, like Kathy said, they revisit characters you already know, but the scene has to be exceptional for me to enjoy it, not just another Friday night at home sort of thing.
I’ve mostly stopped buying if the word count is under 15k, unless I read a review that convinces me otherwise.
It may just boil down to what the answer to these kinds of questions usually come to for me, and that is the quality of the writing.
Do you really think readers will stop buying the shorts, Wave? There doesn’t seem to be any lack of them!
Wren
The internet ate my comment so I’m going to try again.
>>I do think it takes a great skill set to write an effective short story, and maybe that’s where the problem really is. So many of the “shorts” are really more like “scenes.” I think those can be good when, like Kathy said, they revisit characters you already know, but the scene has to be exceptional for me to enjoy it, not just another Friday night at home sort of thing. << It takes a different skill to write a short story but many authors don't recognize that a short story is not just a shorter novel and they try to cram as much plot and sex as they can into the story, forgetting that they will run out of words before the guys even have a coffee, not to mention dessert. I used to buy many short stories because they didn't require a lot of concentration since the plots were not too complex, but now I find that the plots are as complicated sometimes as those in a novella or novel. How on earth do the authors expect to finish the story within the word count without rushing the last 2 - 3 pages and leaving the reader unsatisfied? Are we expected to believe that the guys will pledge undying love in those last three paragraphs? How stupid do they think readers are? >>Do you really think readers will stop buying the shorts, Wave? There doesn’t seem to be any lack of them!<< If some of us who take exception to the crappy short stories that have been released lately stop buying them the authors will get the message. Maybe I've been asleep when this revolution happened but it seems to me that M/M shorts are not getting better despite the amount of time that the authors have been writing them. Take a look at the ratings of some of them just on this site by a variety of reviewers - of course the same thing can be said for novels too. 🙁
“because they know that without that all important HEA or HFN, the chances of readers recommending their books to friends who read romance are just about nil”
Well, I’d like to clear up one fallacy. The authors are REQUIRED to write an HEA or HFN. It has nothing to do with who will recommend and who won’t. We are REQUIRED to have a certain percentage of words that are sex, REQUIRED to start sex within a certain number of pages, and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.
Perhaps our difficulty is that when we do this, we are rebelling against the requirements and TRYING to give plot to the reader. I personally crave balance between sex and plot. Maybe that’s a mistake I make. I have a hard time getting in all the requirements and making myself happy with the end result.
Well, I just turned one in that broke my rules. It’ll be interesting to see how it sells. I’d go to longer books now except I still have six contractual obligations to fill with short stories before I can go on to something longer.
Also, I re-posted a blog from Julia Rachel Barrett on my blog today that ties in with this very well (thank you Chris for pointing this out to me).
http://www.MiaWatts.blogspot.com
Mia, you are one of the few authors who are successful with shorter stories. I am so impressed with your books! I can hardly wait until you can move on to longer novels.
>Well, I’d like to clear up one fallacy. The authors are REQUIRED to write an HEA or HFN. It has nothing to do with who will recommend and who won’t. We are REQUIRED to have a certain percentage of words that are sex, REQUIRED to start sex within a certain number of pages, and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.<
What is regarded as HOT depends on personal taste and I often skip reading the sex scenes because they are repetetive and not original, so they are far from "hot" – maybe I won't even finish the book.
*Rantmodus off*
‘Well, I’d like to clear up one fallacy. The authors are REQUIRED to write an HEA or HFN. It has nothing to do with who will recommend and who won’t. We are REQUIRED to have a certain percentage of words that are sex, REQUIRED to start sex within a certain number of pages, and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.’
I already heard info like this and it makes me angry and sad.
I am sorry to say this, because there ARE well-plotted, and very well-written m/m romance books which are enjoyable and *worth my time*. But as a whole I regard the m/m Romance genre as “junk food”. Because I have a stressful job I read more m/m romance as I would if I had more energy for “other books”.
Do publishers think all romances that are bought are being read? And that all romances get finished reading? Not by me. And I have a memory for names, so why would I buy another book by an author I didn’t like, or by a publisher when I had several bad experiences with their e-books?
I am picky and I still have more m/m books than I can read, but that is the same with other fiction and non-fiction which are all competing with my time, so that is a general weakness of mine. 😉 I haven’t read the link regarding the “m/m overproduction” yet, and the readership of m/m might be still growing for some time, but if publishers don’t at least offer alternatives to plots created with formulas (AND which can be found among the overproduction) these growing m/m romance sales figures might end sooner than some publishers hope.
But what do I know, bestsellers often are the worst crap.
‘and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.’
What is regarded as HOT depends on personal taste and I often skip reading the sex scenes because they are repetetive and not original, so they are far from “hot” – maybe I won’t even finish the book.
Rantmodus off
But to the question by Wave: 😉
For a long time I didn’t like short stories, but that changed as I got to know some great ones and I wouldn’t generally dismiss short stories. It is more difficult to write a short story than a longer one.
I love the quote by Michelangelo, the secret how he created his masterpieces out of marble:
‘Michelangelo’s concept of art, already elaborated a few years before: “to sculpt” meant “to take away”, not “to add”, as the sculpture already existed inside the block of marble. The stone was just the covering that contained a work of art; the sculptor only had to take away the part in excess. The notion of the statue that potentially existed inside the marble was expounded in several of Michelangelo’s letters as well as in afamous sonnet. This idea, already partly expressed by Alberti, attained with Michelangelo a higher philosophical meaning: the sculptor’s hand, guided by intellect, could only take out what was that already extant inside the block of marble and needed to free the “idea” inside from the superfluous surrounding it. ‘
And that should a writer of short stories be able to do, free the story of the superfluous, but … most m/m shorts just contain the superfluous.
So I don’t by m/m shorts. The exception might be a story by an author I like or there is a plot summary I can’t resist, but that is rare.
The Football Anthology was – because of the theme – something to try, but I haven’t read all stories yet because most stories were the same old – just with football players.
‘And that should a writer of short stories be able to do, free the story of the superfluous, but … most m/m shorts just contain the superfluous.’
P.S. And I think not only a writer of short stories should be able to do that. 😉
Hi Quinn
>>But to the question by Wave:
For a long time I didn’t like short stories, but that changed as I got to know some great ones and I wouldn’t generally dismiss short stories. It is more difficult to write a short story than a longer one.<< >>And that should a writer of short stories be able to do, free the story of the superfluous, but … most m/m shorts just contain the superfluous.<< I can't dismiss all short stories because I have read a few good ones but I must admit they weren't many. I also have to say that a lot of the problems in shorts are in novellas and novels too, only they usually have many more pages for the author to make mistakes. 🙁 I don't expect a book to be perfect - just enjoyable, and I hope occasionally to like the protagonists, because if I don't like them there's a good chance I won't like the book.
Mia
>>Well, I’d like to clear up one fallacy. The authors are REQUIRED to write an HEA or HFN. It has nothing to do with who will recommend and who won’t. We are REQUIRED to have a certain percentage of words that are sex, REQUIRED to start sex within a certain number of pages, and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.<< So let me take a stab at this (I know that Quinn made a few comments), you're basically writing sex, not a short M/M romantic story? Isn't that called gay fiction or PWP? What I look for in a story, whether or not it's M/M, is a believable plot,three dimensional characters, and well written prose and dialogue, all of which should lead to a somewhat hopeful ending, not necessarily a HEA. The sex when it happens should further the plot, not be inserted as some sort of artificial requirement. The recently conducted poll on this site gave a range of the percentage of sex that readers considered optimal in these stories (obviously people were on both sides of the range, with some favouring whatever % the author wanted), and it seemed that something in the range of 20% sex was considered a reasonable amount to a lot of readers. I'm definitely not telling you how to write because I'm not an author, but I was intrigued by the requirement for more, more and more sex with no corresponding requirement for a well written story. I expect a novel to have a lot of plot and complex characters but all I need in a short story is that it be well written and enjoyable. At the end of the day isn't that what we all want?
@Kathy B. Thank you, Kathy! I’m looking forward to it too. Different set of challenges, but I’m eager to break up the shorter things with more play time with my boyz.
Contrary to a recent review, I actually do listen to the comments and try to meet the needs of the readers. I won’t be able to please everyone, clearly. But I do my best to try. 🙂
I’m definitely a novels and longer novellas person. If I read anything shorter it would generally only be because it’s by a particular author I already know I like. And I definitely wouldn’t want to read a short story that goes from the start of a relationship to a happy ever after in a few thousand words. That would be like watching a movie on fast forward. The story is all there, but crammed into too short a time and flashes by too fast to enjoy.
Maybe it’s also down to the fact I still primarily read print rather than ebooks. And maybe it’s because I write long myself! The short form is not my natural playground.
JFM
I have a couple of books that are 400+ pages that I’m scared to crack open because I find that really long books tend to get boring and repetitive and there’s usually something wrong with the pacing, as in being as slow as pouring molasses. I have high hopes for one but the other one I don’t know the writer, so we’ll see.
I like to try all story lengths which is why I’m interested in this issue. I would really like to find out how authors can fix this.
In the last few months I’ve read both War and Peace and the full version of The Stand, and at least a couple of 500+pagers, so long books hold no terrors for me. 😀 They aren’t my first pick though.
But romances are a tricky one for really long stories. Unless there’s a lot of other plot intertwined in with the romance plot then repetitiveness would be an issue. (There are only so many rows and misunderstandings two people can have before the reader starts thinking ‘you know, maybe you to aren’t meant to be together after all.’)
JFM
You’ll be able to see how I do and what I think of the books when I post my reviews. 🙂
The curious thing is, I absolutely love short stories. I love the fact that you can read them up in one greedy sitting. I love the way that a good author can distil the most important points of a story, and show us realistic and loveable characters with economy and precision. There are other ways of having convincing HEAs as well, if the story is composed of snippets over time, rather than dwelling on just one long sex scene. Alternatively, I’m perfectly happy with an open ended, “shall we meet again?” style finish.
Yes, there are bad short stories out there, but at least they don’t waste too much of my valuable reading time, unlike bad novels. Maybe what we need as readers are more reviews of short story writers, so we can get an idea of which novelists out there have a mastery of this very different form.
So far I’ve mainly been buying anthologies, where I’m usually guaranteed to enjoy a few of the stories, but as I get to know the writers who know how to make a work of art out of a short piece of prose (JL Merrow and Lenore Black instantly spring to mind) I am seeking out their novellas and stories that have been published as single “shots”, and will buy longer works if and when they are available.
I may be slightly biased in all of this, of course, because I love writing short stories too…
Josephine
>>The curious thing is, I absolutely love short stories. I love the fact that you can read them up in one greedy sitting. I love the way that a good author can distil the most important points of a story, and show us realistic and loveable characters with economy and precision. There are other ways of having convincing HEAs as well, if the story is composed of snippets over time, rather than dwelling on just one long sex scene. Alternatively, I’m perfectly happy with an open ended, “shall we meet again?” style finish.<< I agree with you. This is the reason I like short stories but I can't seem to get well written ones lately. I also like the hopeful ending which is a little less than HFN but still leaves the impression that maybe the guys will come together at some future date. That definitely works for me in place of an unrealistic HEA.. >> Maybe what we need as readers are more reviews of short story writers, so we can get an idea of which novelists out there have a mastery of this very different form. << That's an excellent idea but unfortunately we can't talk about those writers who suck at this art form.
Sounds like there is an opportunity for a reviewer who loves short stories to set up a site specialising in reviewing them. You could have an averaged star rating for individual authors, and review each story in an anthology separately. I’d certainly be interested in visiting it!
I review a number of shorts at this site, Josephine, but to be honest they are never very popular reviews and get much lower hit counts and fewer comments than the reviews for longer books, which is why I review fewer short stories now than I used to do when I first started reviewing here.
When I wrote my own blog I would do a post on Saturdays where I reviewed the 3 or so short stories I read during the week, but again, it was never a very popular post.
I think there is a market for short reviews, but it’s always going to be overshadowed by readers who want the reviews of longer books.
Josephine
That’s a great idea to get a reviewer who specializes in short stories. Maybe I’ll put out a call for one to do just shorts but of course that person will soon become overburdened unless we’re really choosy about which books to review (and they can’t all be 5 stars because we KNOW that many shorts are less than). 🙂
Jen used to do Saturday shorts on her blog but now that she’s closed it, that’s no more. I know she loves shorts but she’s reviewing enough stories for the site now so I can’t ask her to do more.
I’ll see if I can find someone who can do justice to ‘shorts’ and maybe we can adopt Jen’s idea and review them all on Saturdays.
UPDATE
I just saw Jen’s comment. Maybe I need to rethink how to do this. 🙂
I really miss Jen’s Saturday Shorts feature. Loved that.
@Quinn.
I can only tell ya, what I can tell ya. Make of it what you will. 🙂
I like short stories, both reading and writing. I always have. And I like them more now that I’m older and busier.
I can read a short story in a session or two on the exercise bike. It’s as Stephen King says, “A kiss in the dark from a stranger.” The 560 page novel may take months of laundry evenings. I felt like I was MARRIED to the last one. (but I have the sequel anyway) I read King and Bradbury and Ellison religiously in my teens, and still go back to them when i need a refresher on how a short story should look.
I like anthologies. It’s great to get a feel for a bunch of new and different authors and see what their takes are on the same theme.
A short story is not a novel. I need plot and dialogue and characters, not necessarily lots of sex and strong language. I’ve written m/m romance shorts with no sex scenes at all and had them sell and review well.
If a novel is just an endless series of sex scenes held together by a premise, I’m going to put it down and pick up a short.
Writing a novel, I can pace myself, take it slow and unfold the tale. Writing a short story, I have to get right to the point. Of course, coming from the background I do, 10K feels like an extravagant number of words to play with. I’m used to writing complete stories in exactly 100 words.
Angel
>>Writing a novel, I can pace myself, take it slow and unfold the tale. Writing a short story, I have to get right to the point. Of course, coming from the background I do, 10K feels like an extravagant number of words to play with. I’m used to writing complete stories in exactly 100 words.<< This illustrates the point I was trying to make that writing short stories and wrfiting novels requires a different mindset and sometimes different writing skills, but most writers approach them the same way unfortunately. >>A short story is not a novel. I need plot and dialogue and characters, not necessarily lots of sex and strong language. I’ve written m/m romance shorts with no sex scenes at all and had them sell and review well.<< Yes, whatever happened to the sweet romance without a lot of sex? One sex scene for a short is enough IMO, but what do I know? :) >>I can read a short story in a session or two on the exercise bike. It’s as Stephen King says, “A kiss in the dark from a stranger.” The 560 page novel may take months of laundry evenings. I felt like I was MARRIED to the last one. (but I have the sequel anyway) I read King and Bradbury and Ellison religiously in my teens, and still go back to them when i need a refresher on how a short story should look.<< I can so relate. Some novels just go on forever and I read shorts in between when I can't take them anymore.
@Wave
For some publishers, yes. That’s right. Sex is the key focus. I have contracts to fill and I fill them, trying to get story and plot in there because that’s what *I* want. Some publishers aren’t that way and I’m grateful for it.
Mia
I guess I can see some of the difficulty. I reviewed a couple of your books so far and one of them, “She’s got Balls,” published by Resplendence Publishing, I liked a lot. Not only was there a plot but there were two terrific characters and it was very funny. The other one, Bad Boys, Bad Boys, which was published by Total-e-Bound as part of their Lust Bites series was not a fave.
Wave: And yet I happen to love Bad Boys, Bad Boys and have read it at least six times! 🙂 Different things work for different people.
Chris
Isn’t that true. You have to read my review to find out why I didn’t like it. This book really strained credibility, IMO. I think I had some pretty good reasons for my review, but what do I know? 🙂
@Wave. Thanks! Bad Boys released a sequel recently: Reasonable Doubt that picked up where the first left off. I was responding to the reader’s hunger for more information on the boys.
In my attempt to evolve as a writer, I’m trying new things. Subtle things, but new nonetheless. The one I just turned in, Wild Thing for TEB has been well received so far.
… I really like the idea of reviewers who are specific to reviewing shorts. Maybe that would help the industry clear up some of the expectation confusion.
Hi Mia
>>In my attempt to evolve as a writer, I’m trying new things. Subtle things, but new nonetheless. The one I just turned in, Wild Thing for TEB has been well received so far.>>
I’m happy to hear that you’re trying new things because that’s the only way you can grow as a writer, and I look forward to your newer releases with a great deal of anticipation. 🙂 I think I will request both of your new books from TEB. 🙂
>>… I really like the idea of reviewers who are specific to reviewing shorts. Maybe that would help the industry clear up some of the expectation confusion.<< Re the "expectation confusion", I love shorts and read a lot of them as well as novels. My expectation for both formats is the same - a good story (yes even in a book that's 5K and I gave an example of a really good short story in the post that was only 18 pages long), well drawn characters, reasonably well written prose and dialogue and an ending that does not require me to suspend disbelief. I think that most readers want the same things. Just because a book is short does not mean that it shouldn't pass the same test as a novel. Some authors have excellent skills when it comes to writing shorts but bomb with novels and vice versa. When I find an excellent short story I usually put the author on my auto buy list because I love to read short stories.
@Chris, thank you sweet stuff. 🙂 Your encouragement is one of many reasons I dedicated the sequel to you.
@Wave about Bad Boys. I read your review and understood it completely. I didn’t take it as a bad review but rather as an informative opinion. For me, I read Bad Boys and my first thought is, “Oh shit. Look how many times I used the word *kiss*.” LOL. I think it’s what draws your eye or peaks your interest.
I can appreciate both your view and Chris’ in regard to the same book.
Hey, if anyone’s interested, Kris from Krisngoodbooks challenged me to a very short snippet of 2k. She’s got it up on her blog.
…since we’re talking shorts here…
free read:
http://www.Krisngoodbooks.blogspot.com
Mostly I prefer novels, but …..
I have been pretty happy with most of the m/m short story collections I have bought. I consider it a good way to try out new authors at a reasonable price and without a big time investment. And I’ve read some very good short stories (and many that were entirely forgettable). I don’t buy many stand-alone short stories, except from authors I already like and am collecting.
There are excellent novellas out there, and I will buy them. Somebody already mentioned Brokeback Mountain. Josh Lanyon has some excellent novellas out. Some authors can do amazing things in under 100, even under 50 pages.
I just don’t like buying what I think is a novel and finding out it’s a novella or a “novelette.” Certain epublishers are coy to the point of deceptiveness or simply provide no information about length. That kind of bait and switch can only happen electronically. In a brick and mortar store, you can physically examine the book. That’s why more and more I buy at All Romance ebooks, where they post word count for every book, so I know what I’m buying. Electronic page count is pretty sketchy, because formats, spacing, and font size vary widely, even within the same publisher. Word count is the only measure I have any faith in. I will buy direct from publishers that provide word count info, but I avoid buying direct from publishers that don’t provide that info, at least in general terms. (Please don’t tell me the word count numbers are also sketchy and unreliable. ;
))
I couldn’t agree more, Cary. There is absolutely no need to be coy about word count, because there are readers out there who enjoy shorter stories and will see a lower word count as a plus point. Word count indications on anthologies would be useful as well, as the stories are usually within a certain range – why not let us know if we are embarking on an anthology of real shorts, or stories that are approaching novella length?
An unreliable word count? Well, I suppose if the whole thing was written in words of one syllable… 😉
Cary
Thanks for some very good observations.
>>I just don’t like buying what I think is a novel and finding out it’s a novella or a “novelette.” Certain epublishers are coy to the point of deceptiveness<< I should point out that when I did this post I wasn't thinking of novellas which can range from 18 - 39,999K depending on which publisher is doing the count, I was thinking of books that are around 18 - 35 pages. As you said, some of the publishers can be pretty deceptive about omitting page or word count. Amber Allure and JCP Books always give the word count and probably a few others. But on the flip side, for example, Loose Id does not - they list their books as" short novel", "novel", "novella" or "novel plus" and unless you know how they categorize their books you will be at a loss re how many words determine the difference between being rated as a novel or a novel plus. Josh Lanyon's latest book is rated as a short novel on the publisher's website and I know that it's 42K or 148 PDF pages, but unless you buy the book you wouldn't know that. I wish someone would give me the correct conversion from words to pages because the information from the publishers is very confusing and sketchy.
I love a good short story and, like Chris, I read them between longer books, or if I need a break from the book I am currently reading.
Word count can vary. It depends on how you count hyphenated words.
My word processor claims a certain book is 52,000 words. My publisher listed it at 49,900.
Most places consider novel length to be anything over 45,000, since that’s the -(insert letter here)-WA standard.
Angelia
As I said in an earlier comment, I wish someone would tell me where I could get correct information on the conversion from word count to an average page or a page in a print book that’s not large print. Because it’s very confusing sometimes when reviewing a book to decide whether it’s a novel or a novellette or a novella – I try to give both the word and page count when I can. One publisher (Amber Allure) gave me some numbers that they use but I can’t get anything from the others. Maybe it’s a trade secret. There must be an industry standard somewhere.
I like reading short stories. I have TONS of sci-fi and horror anthologies clogging up my shelves. Writing them? Hm, not as much. I started out writing shorts. Most of them are up as freebies on my website (the ones utterly unfit for human consumption are NOT!). I have a few out with Samhain and one coming out soon with MLR. I don’t think I’ve done insta-love. LOL. But yeah, shorts are HARD, man. The further I get along in this whole “author” gig, the more I like writing novels instead of shorts and novellas. Everything wants to be a novel these days. Well, okay, so writing shorts for Fiction With Friction (group blog) using characters from my novels who are already together isn’t too hard. That’s kind of fun 🙂
Honestly, I haven’t read enough new shorts in the last few years to even speak to the problems you’re talking about. I’m totally out of the loop O_O
I love your Samhain short story Catching a Buzz, Ally. Then again I’m a sucker for goth heroes so it was a perfect read for me.
Ally
Like Jen said, Catching A Buzz is one of my favourite shorts. I absolutely loved the book. As I said in the post, writing short stories is a different format from writing novels and I wish that authors would recognize that and treat them accordingly .
Two authors who write excellent short stories, novellas and novellettes as well as novels are Jordan Castillo Price and Josh Lanyon and I have no idea how they do it. Maybe I’ll ask Josh or Jordan to post on writing short stories for those authors who want to do a good job for the readers.
However, Ally, you do a really good job on your short stories, so no worries there. 🙂 That reminds me, I’ll be reviewing Dragon’s Kiss soon in preparation for Shenandoah. 🙂
Hi Wave,
Interesting post. I’ve actually become much more of a fan of short novels in recent years. Maybe it’s because I am getting old and my memory is going…LOL. Seriously, I think it is because of ebooks. I never walked into Barnes and Nobel and saw little thin books on the shelves–they weren’t economical to print and distribute. But with ebooks that problem is gone.
I wrote a 5+ DIK review of Take My Picture–that book was 33K words and I read it in an afternoon. It was perfect. Blessed Isle by Alex Beecroft (in the Hidden Conflict anthology) — one of my top ten reads for last year — was 28K words. If I can blow my own horn — Taming Groomzilla, at 18K words — has gotten very positive reviews. So I do think it is possible to have a good story, good characters and a plot in short(er) form fiction.
My life has been on overload lately and I have come to really appreciate a book that I can read in a few hours. I think part of it is that I like to read books more or less in one sitting and I feel like lately, I haven’t had 8 or 9 hours to sit around and read. Thus, short books are working well for me right now and I am excited about the good stuff that I have read.
L
Hi Leslie
Thanks for commenting.
When I wrote this post I was really talking about books that were between 5K – 10K because that’s where a lot of readers are having problems. Novellas are the second tier of the problem since many authors can’t seem to wrap up their novellas satisfactorily despite the increased word count, anywhere from 18K to 39K, depending on the publishers’ definition of a novella, and each one has a different criteria.
I do agree that shorts are convenient for many readers who are pressed for time and that’s why most of read them, but I have almost stopped lately because of all the “insta love” leading to a quick HEA. I need a book to make sense and if it doesn’t I’m not interested, so many of these books become DNF and a waste of my money. I have the same standards and criteria for shorts as I do for novels – I want a reasonable plot, three dimensional characters (hopefully they can also move me), good dialogue and prose and a credible ending.
You must be much better at choosing your shorts than me because I have ended up with a few duds lately, and it seems that I’m not the ony one, going by all of the comments in the post on “How Do You Like Your M/M Erotic Romance 2010?” You have to tell me your secret. 🙂
Whatever my secret is, it’s obviously not foolproof since I just finished a review (to post on Monday) of a 12K book that didn’t work for me. Oh well…
L
(Meant to get in here yesterday, and now all the comments I saved are up a lot higher. Sigh.)
Josephine said something about some authors being very good at shorts: I totally agree. I think for some people it’s the natural form, and they’re ones to follow. I also agree with who she’s quoted. I sometimes wonder too if the natural shorts have to think/compose as hard with novels as I do with shorts. I guess the one I did for Necking did kind of come out, but I sweated buckets over it. I was never sure if I did it right. I just don’t have the correct antenna for shorts.
I think they’re very valuable, though, and I love that this genre has the outlet for them. I agree it would be great to have a reviewer focusing specifically on them. And I too have hunted down authors to read via shorter works/anthologies. It was also why I worked to get a few shorts in place. I wanted someone to read my stuff, maybe feel a connection and look up my backlist. But man, that’s a lot of pressure on 30 pages.
Though again, if one is willing to work, having the fence of that word limit does amazing things. I’m never more aware of beats and arc than I am in a short. It’s story so distilled. I still want it to have the rush of a novel, but it has to be an eddy instead of a wave. Novels for me are like submerging into worlds. Shorts are workouts for me. I’m always looking at the word count and tensing, trying to make sure I can boil it down. And of course it never does what I thought it was going to do, so there’s the OH SHIT panic to keep things interesting. It’s so different from a novel.
I can’t do anything under 8k though. Well, okay, I think I have a free read that’s short, but honestly it was more a spleen cleansing. Not a romance. I have no idea how to get people in love and HFN in 5k. 2k blows my mind. But then, for me it’s all about that arc and that rise. That’s why I read. I’m an adrenaline junkie. So I end up writing (or trying to write) the same thing.
Of course, thanks to this thread I now have more names for good shorts to look up. So, keep those coming.
And Kathy B, thanks for the kind words. Hope I can keep living up to it.
Wave, as usual, thanks for the great post and discussion.
It’s funny that you mention Clare as being one of the first ever authors of short story books that pulled you in. I can’t tell you how many times Clare has told me she can’t contain her writing when she gets going, how hard it is for her to keep from adding more to the plot. 😀
I’ve always found most of her short stories wonderful to read, and enjoy her longer ones very much.
In general though, I tend to stay away from short stories unless I know the author, or someone I trust highly recommends the story. They are mostly what you say – either too much plot and back-story to really work in short story format or far too much sex without any story!
If you want to try one that I personally enjoyed very much, try “Go Fish” by HT Murray, published through Torque Press. It’s funny and fun, sweet, witty and very warm. It might be just a tad over your definition of short story; it’s over 40 pages.
Hi Merith
I’m so glad you mentioned Go Fish because I was fighting with Jen a few months ago over who would review it and she won (as she always does, by threatening to go on strike) 🙂 Then I completely forgot about the story. I will pull it up right now so that I don’t forget again.
You’re right about Clare. I have not read a book that she has written which had major flaws, whether it was a short story or a novel. She is a terrific writer.
As a reader, I’ve been burnt with stories that do not have a beginning, a middle, and an end, at every length published, including novels. I don’t want the sex defined by wordcount, I want it defined by story arc. If an 8000 word story ends up with 17 words to define a randy encounter because it works in context, I am good with that. I just don’t see much of it in my reading, because the publishers and maybe other readers aren’t good with that. But those might be the 17 words I think about quite a lot at later moments.
As a writer, I write until the story arc, with beginning, middle, and end, is done. So far, that’s worked out to either 6600-8100, or over 45k, but the limitation is what I have to say, not a contract (that’s an interesting dilemma to have!).
Some really good advice came out of a “how to write literary short stories” book (no kidding, that was really in the title), that went along the lines of “in a short story, something has to change.” Sometimes a story is all about the moment, but even underneath, something should change; an opinion, a situation, a relationship. Why can’t it be a small change? “Can I call you tomorrow?” is a perfectly reasonable amount of change to get in 16 pages. Some of the more problematic shorts I’ve read have lacked b/m/e, change, or more than one of those.
I like to do stories now and then where the guys have a history, but if I’ve also written some of the history, someone throws rocks because it wasn’t all wrapped in one package.
Wave, the rough conversion is 250 words/mass market paperback page. This means a 50,000 word novel goes about 200 print pages. (I have the number from a journalist friend and a couple of other authors who write mass-market) There are about 400 words/.pdf and word processor page.
The conversion is more difficult with trade paperbacks because of varying sizes.
As for publishers and industry standard lengths, most e-book pubs match the RWA/SFWA/HWA’s guidelines.
http://www.sfwa.org/archive/awards/faq.htm#6
•Novel — 40,000 words or more
•Novella — 17,500–39,999 words
•Novelette — 7,500–17,499 words
•Short Story — 7,499 words or fewer
Ellora’s cave lists their lengths as a popup block. So you don’t have to hunt:
Quickie: up to 15,000
Novella: 15,000-29,999
Short Novel: 30,000-44,999
Novel: 45,000-69,999
Plus Novel: 70,000-99,999
Super plus novel: 100,000+
(but you only go print between 50 and 100K)
Torquere puts their lengths under the submission guidelines:
http://torquerepress.com/submissions/guidelines.html
Novel – 50,000 words and up
Novella – 20-45,000 words
Novelette – 10-20,000 words
Short Stories – Under 10,000 words
Phaze has a faq page:
http://www.phaze.com/sizerating1.htm
HeatSheet: 5,000 – 12,000 words (short story)
Themed HeatSheet: 5,000 – 18,000 (short / novella)
Photon: 12,000 – 30,000 words (novella)
Comet: 30,000 – 60,000 words (category)
Eclipse: 60,000 – 90,000 words (novel)
Quasar: 90,000 + (mega-novel)
Hope those help some.
Angel
This is great. I’ll circulate it to the guest reviewers because we try to give the readers as much information as we can.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time.
@Wave. Thank you. I value your reviews even if they sting sometimes. 😉 I’m sure TEB’ll send them over. If not, send me an email directly and I’ll make sure you get copies.
by clearing up confusion, redefining the short story, I also include the authors. Most times, we’re working on the definition that we need a complete story in that short time frame. I’m thinking that a review site for shorts can serve as an educator for both the reader and the writer.
@Quinn
That’s fine. There are many who don’t like heavy sex and that’s very valid too. My suggestion would be to avoid publishers that stress sex in their short stories. When you find books that do that and it’s not something you care for, you’ll know others by that publisher will do the same thing.
Ranting is fully welcome. I’ll try to help where I can.
Mia
If you’re still monitoring this post could you please email me? Thanks.
The “contact” button on your website isn’t working for me. 🙂
@Mia
‘That’s fine. There are many who don’t like heavy sex and that’s very valid too. My suggestion would be to avoid publishers that stress sex in their short stories. When you find books that do that and it’s not something you care for, you’ll know others by that publisher will do the same thing.’
Oh, I didn’t say I don’t LIKE explicit sex scenes. My criticism was more directed at the fact, that sex scenes shouldn’t be a substitution for plot if a story is marketed as “having” a plot. The sex scenes should follow the plot arc and not be forced according to a checklist. PWP is a different thing.
I’m not new to the gay fiction / m/m genre, so maybe I’m more impatient because I already have read lots of m/m sex scenes in over 20 years (e.g. some of the Badboy Books of the 90s) and I still occasionally read stories at Nifty. I’m sure not all those stories were written by men, but I think most were. For other readers (mostly female?) new to the genre lots of sex scenes might still be new and hot.
Maybe it is due to personal taste, but if I like to read smut, than I prefer “smutty smut” like it is written for gay men and not HALF the story full of “insta-love sweet romance sex in a HEA story”. In my opinion that is boring.
A lot of teasing and anticipation and UST between two (or more ;-)) characters I care about will be HOTTER than lots of repetitive sex scenes between stereotype romance characters.
In a story with a well-crafted story the content of sex scenes can vary from none at all to heavy – if it is consistent with plot and characters.
The genre is still expanding and hopefully writers and publishers will care about original and well developed plots. That is not to say there isn’t place for light fluffy stories with explicit sex scenes and HEA.
But the genre shouldn’t limit itself to just HEA stories which follow the same pattern as m/f. I like to read m/m because I like to read about MEN. 😉
‘Ranting is fully welcome. I’ll try to help’ where I can.
😉 Tell the publishers.
@ Wave: Some of the links on the link words are slightly off to one side because of the angle they hit. Since I have received your off-comment email, looks like you found me. 🙂
For anyone else, wattsmia@aol.com
Clarification to anyone interested. Wild Thing is in edits. It’s not out yet. When it is, I’ll be sure to post it on my website and blog.
Thanks for the interest!
Wow, I’m so sorry I missed this while I was away, and not only because I got mentioned in dispatches! LOL
I like to read shorts because of leisure time pressures, though I confess that some of them leave me feeling unsatisfied. I enjoy the ones that give me the whole characters in a few words, without having to describe their socks and shoes and grandmother’s ancestry. Then take me on a journey with them, however short in actual distance or time. Nor do I need an HEA, my furthest expectation is HFN. Who quoted that fab thing about “something must change”? I think that’s an excellent parameter to keep beside you, both as reader and writer.
Does anyone think the increased number of shorts is largely a symptom of the e-publishing industry? I used to write more shorts – merith has shared an antho with me in the past! – but I was told somewhere along the line that the mainstream publishing industry had no time for them. But it’s so much easier to present them in e-form that there’s now a legitimate outlet.
Or maybe it’s a cross-over from fanfic writers going pro? A lot of fanfic involves shorter work, “slices of life”, exploring themes and scenes rather than creating whole worlds.
We authors should take just as much time and care with them – sometimes MORE, because you have to ruthlessly cull, you lose the luxury of taking more time and words to tell your story. Every word should count, and a short conversation has to illustrate what could have been a chapter in a novel. I’ve always thought it calls for a different skill than novel-writing, it’s not just an excerpt of a longer work.
But they’re fun to write! Many times I have a couple of scenes in my mind that won’t expand to novel length, yet there’s a story to be shared. And let’s face it, sometimes I don’t have the time to write a lengthy book, but want to keep in touch with readers.
Great post, Wave. Sorry I was late to the party 🙂
WOW. I could hardly skim half the comments here–but I do have some thoughts of my own.
Short stories ARE hard to write–they require a different skill set than novels and that’s the truth.
Many of literature’s greatest short stories are sci-fi/fantasy stories, because those genres allow for the ambiguous ending–and the kind of ending that makes you think hard and work for satisfaction. Obviously, with a romantic short story, the ambiguous ending is NOT an option.
While my publisher doesn’t ‘require’ me to have an HEA, and it doesn’t lay down word percentages for sex scenes (for which I’m eternally grateful) and, in fact, doesn’t require a sex scene at all, if it’s not integral to the story, part of the charm of a short romantic story can be the big orgasmic payoff, and I think that’s why a lot of readers tune in. They want a quickie–either emotionally or intellectually, and that can be a fun thing! Of course, that means that part of the challenge is constructing a story with the classic plot pyramid… conflict, build, conflict, build, conflict, build, CLIMAX, denouement.
The thing is, THAT’S what readers really need to be looking for in a short. If a short story does that, with character development to boot, it’s done it’s job. The emotional involvement of a longer story isn’t necessarily going to be there–but that’s not a fault of craftsmanship, any more than the failure of a steak knife being used to hew down a rosebush is a failure of craftsmanship on the part of the knife. Did it have a bang? (And in spite of the fun pun there, it doesn’t really have to be a sex scene, honest!) Did it have a build to the bang? Did it have a an afterglow? (Still doesn’t need to be sex!) If it has these things, it’s fulfilled it’s purpose.
I notice the Brokeback Mountain is used as the quintessential short story. One of the reasons it succeeds so well is that it ends badly, and the reader is left to ponder the ‘what ifs’ of the situation, and sorrow over them as well.
And, as someone who (in my indie work) has been hammered to the wall in a big ugly bloody mess for leaving a novel with a sad ending, (or working damned hard for a happy one) I’d have to say that sometimes, it is worth it to write a pleasant (if unexceptional) short story that leaves people happy as opposed to writing a big, heart-ripping angst buster that has people e-mailing you out of the blue to say “You bitch! How could you kill Adrian! How could Crick leave Deacon! Dammit, I thought you liked people!”