Sex in M/M Romance: Are Readers Turned Off by Boring Sex?

78 comments

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  An author you can add to that list is KA Mitchell — I’m constantly impressed by how her many sex scenes are actually character development or even plot development moments.

  I like sex when it’s natural to the story, but I’m a lover of good books first and foremost. And I can tell you from experience, some of the greatest romances of my life didn’t include so much as a kiss. *grin*

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    Hi Jules
    You’re right about K.A.’s books. Even when I might not give one of her books 5 stars I’m impressed by the quality of her writing.

    >>I like sex when it’s natural to the story, but I’m a lover of good books first and foremost.<< So am I. M/M books have to have more content than the sex. I love sex in these books but the scenes can't be just "throw ins" because the authors missed their count.

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  Sometimes I like lots and sometimes I like none. It needs to fit. The only “call for submissions” I read was Amber Allure and it said it had to have sex (and not many of us want a sexless book in romance) but it didn’t say it had to be X% or one scene every 20 pages. Now maybe when people submit they’ll get a notice back saying “sorry, not smexy enough”, no clue, but I would think if I loved my story as it was, (hypothetically here), with one sex scene in 150 pages because that FIT the story, I have to decide if I’m so desperate to get published that I will endanger the integrity of my story to meet an artificial construct or whether I am willing to say “Sorry, guess my book is not for you” and continue to look for a publisher who WILL accept it with that amount of sex. Maybe some authors hope once they get a reputation they’ll be able to have more influence and say no to massive sex scenes in the future and that probably happens for a few VERY big names, but there seems to be so many would-be authors that publishers who demand certain sex content can likely find enough people to fill the bill without compromising their “standards”. But I simply don’t shop at those publishers if I find it excessive. Some of that it trial and error but that’s how life works.

  Perhaps it’s my inner 4 year old, but if you tell me I MUST write 10 sex scenes in 100 pages, I’m far less likely to be inclined to do so. “You can’t tell ME what to do.”

  Sometimes I skim sex scenes, sometimes I don’t. But I couldn’t really pin down why that happens. It’s like porn. I can’t describe it but I know it when I see it.

  The wet cloth thing could use some variety. What about kleenex? A dirty shirt off the floor? Not the sheet because then you have a wet spot. LOL But I’d rather have them wipe than curl up and go to sleep because that’s just ewww. Unless you rub it in I suppose then that’s just ewwwier.

  Oh and as for DNF, for me, it’s very very low. It’s very rarely I will not finish a book and usually if it happens it’s not because I consider it a bad book, it’s usually because a theme is not working for me. Usually too BDSMy or something like that which makes me not finish, but I figure if I paid for the damn thing I’m going to read it come hell or high water, or repetetive sex scenes.

  P.S. Lookat this post. Now you can see why writing a 3000 word story was a chore for me. I think I can add 6 more words at this point. LOL

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    Tam

    >>The only “call for submissions” I read was Amber Allure and it said it had to have sex (and not many of us want a sexless book in romance) but it didn’t say it had to be X% or one scene every 20 pages<< Amber Allure was not the publisher referred to in the post. I think I might know which one it is, but I'm not posting it on the site. >>Perhaps it’s my inner 4 year old, but if you tell me I MUST write 10 sex scenes in 100 pages, I’m far less likely to be inclined to do so. “You can’t tell ME what to do.” << Maybe some people ARE that desperate to be published, particularly if they are just starting out. >>The wet cloth thing could use some variety. What about kleenex? A dirty shirt off the floor? Not the sheet because then you have a wet spot. LOL But I’d rather have them wipe than curl up and go to sleep because that’s just ewww. Unless you rub it in I suppose then that’s just ewwwier. << I noticed that some of them are using Kleenex recently. 🙂 "ewwwier?" Where do you get those words. For me the percentage of DNF is high because I buy books mainly from some of the smaller publishers. However, some of the more established publishers are just as bad. Have you noticed that Josh Lanyon's books have WAY more plot than sex? hmmmm ... I wonder how he gets away with that. I must ask him. 🙂

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      But then Sean’s first book (Was it his first ever? Not 100% sure, but first big one.) Tigers and Devils had no on-page sex at all. It was/is very popular and people don’t mind at all that there is no sex, so as you said, not all publishers demand the sex quotient and hopefully the smart ones are choosing because of quality of the writing. So you don’t HAVE to be a Josh Lanyon to get your book published with more plot than sex but it probably helps in some cases.

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        Tam
        Re Tigers and Devils – that was a wonderful romance with no real on page sex and I’m sure it sold a lot and is still selling. I must ask Sean what were the numbers.

        We can appreciate a well written book.

        Josh can pretty well call the tune in terms of what he wants but the lesser folk have to play by the rules. However, I must commend Sean’s editor for recognizing that this book had a lot going for it even though it wasn’t rated as a 3 or 4.

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    Ewwwier

    I really like this word! 😉

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  I’ve had my work rejected by publishers because of the lack of explicit scenes. It’s been my impression that if there is a niche in m/m for sweet romance, it’s a wee little niche. 😀 But if publishers are gobbling up the steamy works, there must be a readership for them.

  I think you can safely answer yes to the question of whether readers are turned off by boring sex. If there’s little to no character development, there won’t be an emotional connection between the characters, and without the emotions, sex gets boring quickly. If you are invested in the characters and their HEA, the physical expression of their feelings for each other can create just as much tension as any other plotline.

  I don’t buy as much m/m romance fiction as I did two years ago because I’m finding it more difficult to locate Books With Plot. I like more going on in the story than just the sex or even just the progress of a developing relationship, no matter how wonderfully written. If you will give me interesting characters, romance, and a fun storyline besides, I’m sure to adore your work.

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    Hi Mara

    >>I’ve had my work rejected by publishers because of the lack of explicit scenes. It’s been my impression that if there is a niche in m/m for sweet romance, it’s a wee little niche.<< Many readers,myself included, would love to read books where the emphasis is not on the sex but the relationship between the protagonists and there is an actual plot. I'm definitely not a prude. I love some M/M/M books and one of them that I have read many times is 9-1-1 by Chris Owen which had a lot of sex but there was a story to go along with the sex. >>If there’s little to no character development, there won’t be an emotional connection between the characters, and without the emotions, sex gets boring quickly.<< I think some writers forget that they are supposed to be writing a story and that the characters are supposed to be expressing emotions. If their focus is on the sex then it's no surprise that the book turns out to be dull. We get criticized as reviewers because many of the books we review have no story and we rate them accordingly. Authors get pissed when their books don't get the rating they think they deserve. Well, I hope that I'm reviewing a romance not PWP and when/if it turns out that the book is almost PWP I give it the rating I think it deserves.

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    See both of your books are on my top ten list of favorites and will probably stay there no matter how many books I will read. I am able to find the books with plot these days because I stick to the authors I know and to the recommendations of the people I trust, but it makes me sad that work like yours was rejected for the lack of sex ugh. Even though I consider your writing to be superior to so many books where there is a lot and lot of sex and nothing else in my opinion. But as publisher below seems to say – sex sells and I can see that even some authors whose debut books I loved are sexing up their next books even when sex to me does not do anything to advance the plot in those books.

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      Sirius, you are such a sweetheart. I have seen your comments elsewhere, before. Would you please send me your email address? I’ll send you a copy of my next book when it’s finished.

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  Yes, I do agree – I do find myself skipping sex scenes in books recently and sighing deeply, longing to get back to the plot. I think a lot of them could have all the sex scenes removed with no detriment to the book at all – shocking thought! Somebody far wiser than I once said that sex scenes are really only there to reveal character and if they don’t, cut the sex scene and write something else instead. Otherwise, as you say, it’s porn, not erotic writing.

  I also think scenes between characters can be totally hot without any physical contact whatsoever – there’s a big difference between erotic and physical which is often missed, I think.

  Axxx

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    Anne

    >>Yes, I do agree – I do find myself skipping sex scenes in books recently and sighing deeply, longing to get back to the plot. I think a lot of them could have all the sex scenes removed with no detriment to the book at all – shocking thought!<< I don't want anyone to get the impression that I don't like sex in these books. I do. However they have to be more than condiments that dilute the taste of the food. I think M/M is going in the direction where the plot no longer matters and all the editors are looking for is more, more sex to make the books "spicy". One publisher said that while "sweet" romances sell, those that are riddled with sex sell more copies. Go figure. Maybe not as many readers are bothered that these books are getting closer to PWP.

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  I am in complete agreement with your article. The first M/M book’s I read was Denise Rosetti”s Strongman and Claire Thompson’s Polar reaction. I feel that both have strong story lines as well as fair amount of sexual tension leading up to great sex scenes. I love the length of those stories as well. A very good introduction.

  Since then I have read hundreds of stories that I can say the same thing about. Ally Blue, Jet Mykles, Sean Michael, Madeleine Urban, Cameron Dane, Chris Owen, Ethan Day, ZA Maxfield, KA Mitchell and Heidi Cullinan are just a few on my auto buy list. All of these authors are creative storytellers with a lot of steam.

  However, they are not the only authors in the M/M genre. For every 1 great read there are 2 or 3 not so good, some even down right terrible. Whether it is spelling/grammar/editing mistakes or inflated fluff content, publishers are not doing the genre any favors by allowing some of these works to be released. They are certainly not doing the author justice as I’m sure that many of them get bad feedback from readers, if the readers bother to comment at all.

  In the beginning, I gauged what I bought from the synopsis. I was soon to discover that the blurbs were either very misleading or told the whole story. A “friends to lovers” story where the couple had both longed for the other but had been afraid to wreck their friendship turned out to be 2 men who worked in the same building and had crossed paths once (yes, only one time) in the 2 years prior to the beginning of the story. And even that was a quick passing in the hallway, not even a conversation, and only one of the participants knew the others name. And yet within pages of the opening the two cross paths again at an office party and are making like rabbits, expressing how much that one encounter, for all of 10 seconds, 2 years ago changed their entire life and no relationship since has held any satisfaction. Huh?

  After a few months of getting burned by blurbs, I started looking for word and page counts. That seems to have helped a bit, but with the addition of words came the increase in fluff. The same thought or idea expressed in 20 different ways. Flowery words and long winded, angsty dialogue instead of just saying what they mean. And, of course, many sex scenes that are boring, unnecessary and totally out of place.

  There has to be a certain amount of the reading public who enjoys these oversexed stories or else publishers wouldn’t continue to produce them. It would begin to hurt their bottom line if readers stopped buying from them. I just wish there was some kind of way to know that about the piece before buying it. Unfortunately, not everyone would have the same grading scale so a universal system would be nearly impossible.

  For me, I know that I enjoy the story much more if there is a strong plot; whether it be a mystery, a comedy, or a romantic one. And I seem to prefer the ones where the couple doesn’t love in a bubble. I like a strong supporting cast.

  And the best sexual scene has to be the first time. It shapes how the rest will go. If the first kiss/contact doesn’t live up to the hype preceding it then I lose interest in any following sex scenes. By that I don’t mean it has to be all hearts and flowers, either. The first encounter between Jack and D in Jane Seville’s Zero At the Bone left both Jack and the reader going WTF, but it was so in line with who the characters are that it is a perfect example of the sexual scenes furthering the plot.

  I can only recommend that readers be vocal, respectfully, of course. Write and post reviews, even if it is only a sentence or two. Tell both the authors and the publishers how you feel about their work. The more they know should help produce more quality content.

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    Hi MANtastic

    >>The first M/M book’s I read was Denise Rosetti”s Strongman and Claire Thompson’s Polar reaction. I feel that both have strong story lines as well as fair amount of sexual tension leading up to great sex scenes.<< I, too, read Strongman and loved it. While I read Polar Reaction the story didn't flow as well for me but it was still a good book. >>However, they are not the only authors in the M/M genre. For every 1 great read there are 2 or 3 not so good, some even down right terrible. Whether it is spelling/grammar/editing mistakes or inflated fluff content, publishers are not doing the genre any favors by allowing some of these works to be released.<< In every profession there will always be those who are not a credit to the profession and writing is like any other. As I said in response to Trace's comment, not every publisher demands that its writers include a certain percentage of sex in their books to spice them up. If the story requires a lot of sexual content to further the plot then that's what the author should do. However, they should try to make the sex entertaining and vary it since we're not buying a sex manual but a romance. One of the things I miss a lot which some authors did in the past, was humour during the sex. Alas, they seem to have forgotten how to do so now. >>There has to be a certain amount of the reading public who enjoys these oversexed stories or else publishers wouldn’t continue to produce them. It would begin to hurt their bottom line if readers stopped buying from them. I just wish there was some kind of way to know that about the piece before buying it.<< Unfortunately readers say one thing and then buy the same type of books they criticise. One of things we do here is review the books as objectively as we can by talking about what we liked, didn't like etc., and elements that strike us readers would like to know about, and most of them seem to feel that we do a good job. Blurbs tell you nothing.

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      Wave:

      One of the things I miss a lot which some authors did in the past, was humour during the sex. Alas, they seem to have forgotten how to do so now.

      Oh, then you’ll like my next one. *grin* As Stephen Fry said, “Sex without smiling is as sickly and base as vodka and tonic without ice.” 😉 (Maybe not THAT extreme, but I do like humorous moments in my sex.)

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        Jules
        Your sex scenes and your books always have a lot of humour. I’m still laughing about Can’t Hurry Lovewhich I thought was a gas. If you can duplicate some of the humour in your new book I will love you forever. 🙂

        Why is sex always so serious with lots of grunting and groaning? Sometimes laughing about mishaps is wonderful too. 🙂

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  Fascinating subject, Wave. Thanks for posting it. I just wanted to drop my two cents in here as a publisher…

  I can speak only for Amber Allure, of course. We generally never dictate to our authors what type of material they should or should not write. If the story is submitted as a “heat level 1” or a “heat level 3” it really doesn’t matter much to us. Where it DOES seem to matter, however, is when the authors plan upcoming stories. They look back at their paychecks and quickly come to realize that the majority of the best sellers are “heat level 3” books. (Although some genres don’t sell no matter the heat level.) But for the sake of argument, let’s say we’re talking about nothing but “contemporary” stories, which are typically the better sellers and we’re comparing “level 1” contemporaries to “level 3” contempories. Certainly, there are always exceptions to this rule, but more often then not, the stories with the most sex (level 3) seem to sell more. Not sure why, but that’s the nature of the business. Therefore, when authors see which of their books sell and which don’t, they start getting conditioned to writing a certain way, with a target toward getting the most customers, which is good business sense, both for them and us, the publisher. I believe most of the Allure authors write within their comfort zone, however, and we would never force them to go beyond that zone, especially not if the sex has nothing to do with the plot. In other words, I can’t recall telling any of our authors to “sex it up” just “because.” I’d rather our authors be proud of their “level 1” story instead of making them ruin it by upping it to a “level 3” and marring their original vision.

  Regardless, because the “sex sells” phrase does mean something in e-book publishing, I can understand why some publishers may make specific requirements…each publisher knows what their main customer base frequently requests, so there’s probably a good reason such demands occur when it comes to book content. But as I said, I can speak only for AQP, and we’re not as concerned. Now, with that said, I would love it if all of our “heat level 1” books sold as well as the majority of all the “heat level 3” books, but that’s usually never the case, unfortunately. The trick is getting customers to embrace the “lower sex” stories as they do the hot ones 🙂

  Also, I wanted to mention that the complaint I receive most often from our authors when it comes to their writing is this: “I wish I didn’t have to write another d&^%ed sex scene.” Too bad they often feel they must simply because it’s usually the difference between a book selling only a few copies vs. hundreds or thousands. It’s the nature of the biz.

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    Hi Trace

    Thank you for giving the perspective of AQP.

    >>We generally never dictate to our authors what type of material they should or should not write.<< As I said in an earlier comment, Amber Allure was not the publisher that the author quoted was referring to in the post. I spoke with many authors before I posted this piece and they all spoke highly of AQP and your policies and practices. So you need have no concerns in this area however, unfortunately, because I don't want to name names, a lot of good publishers tend to get tarred with the same brush. I do realize that authors have to take some responsibility for their stories, and not only the publishers, which is why I said this >>If some publishers are indeed demanding that their authors pump up their books with sex to bloat the word count, they are doing a disservice to this sub genre.<< There is a big 'if' in there. I also mentioned in the piece that a lot of these sex scenes are just there, it seemed, to fatten the word count because there's no relationship between many of them and the actual stories, if there was even a plot. Of course the authors have to bear the responsibility for a story that has minimal plot and lots and lots of sex. The publisher doesn't write the stories, they do. When we review their stories and point out the ratio of sex to actual story content they get mad because they don't like either the reviews or the ratings. The solution is obviously that they should write better stories. Money is always a big element and I do realize that books which have a level 3 rather than a level 1 rating sell better. Yet many of these same readers who are buying the books with a level 3 rating complain about a lack of plot and too much sex. They seem to be saying one thing with their pens but another with their credit cards when they opt for the "spicier" books that have no or little plot. This, then, becomes a vicious circle because the authors confirm their opinion that sex sells, whether it's a book or a body. I much prefer to read books where there is an actual plot, some interaction and emotion between the protagonists, and the sex is not just there because the author wants to fatten his/her pay cheque. There's something called taking pride in what you do and I think some authors are not giving readers a quality product, but that's just me. In closing, Trace, I want to reiterate that AQP was definitely not one of the publishers referred to in this post as forcing its writers to 'up' the sexual content in their stories. I respect you immensely as the Executive Editor, as well as AQP, the publisher. 🙂 Also, one of my very favourite writers is an Amber Allure author, M.L. Rhodes, who is mentioned in the post as writing some of the hottest sex but always to advance the plot. 🙂

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      Ooh, yes, hugely looking forward to the next ML Rhodes book myself! 🙂 Axxx

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  One of my very first books in m/m world were “Wicked gentlemen” by Ginn Hale and it sort set my standards for the genre. I love plot, I love romance, if it also has sex scenes in it as icing on the cake (not boring please), I am happy. HOWEVER and I know that I am in the minority on this, but I also know that the readers like me do exist, if author has to choose between writing a good story and great characters AND sex scenes, I would much rather author faded sex scenes to black, really. I love Tigers and Devils so much better than quite a lot of books in this genre for example.

  I remember reading quite a few books after I read Wicked gentlemen and literally getting angry. I was like, so I got it, the only purpose of existence for your characters is to have sex all the time, how very BORING for me.
  I want to know more about what makes your characters tick and while I understand that often sex can show some psychological hang ups that protagonists have, I still want to know more about them. I get bored silly with such books as simple as that.

  By the way, yes I NEVER ever not once was bored with a single sex scene in Jordan Castillo Price Psychop series. In fact I found them exciting, fun, hot and usually advancing a plot.

  And oh, Anne Brooke’s Bones of summer. I loved how she dared to show characters have imperfect sex in the beginning of the book, LOVED. So yeah, I wish a lot of authors would do same thing.

  SO for me the bottom line, I all for reading some hot sex scenes, however if you cannot do it without sacrificing plot and character development I would much rather you have not written them.

  Of course I am talking about romance books, erotic romance books. If you are writing just erotica, I get that your characters will be in bed all the time, I respect that a lot of readers would want to read that.

  It is just not my cup of tea. But in romance? I believe I deserve to read about more than just sex and all the time as a reader. :). In my opinion of course.

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    Thanks, Sirius! Glad you enjoyed Bones :)) I’m still working towards perfect sex, you know – not sure I’m there yet!!

    :))

    Axxx

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      Heh Anne, perfect sex is an admirable goal, but seriously it was the first time ever I have read a book where something did not work perfectly durinng the sex scene. Since in RL something does not work perfectly more than once, I appreciated it a lot. And by the way if I were to number a reasons why I love Bones of summer sex scenes definitely would be the last reason. I loved the characters, I loved the plot, have I mentioned I loved the characters? I just appreciated that sex scene because it was so different from what is happening in 99% of the sex scenes that I have read in other books.

      I mean maybe imperfect sex does exist in m/m romances I certainly cannot claim that I read all the books in the genre lol, however I have read a lot and yours was the first one.

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    Hi Sirius

    >>One of my very first books in m/m world were “Wicked gentlemen” by Ginn Hale and it sort set my standards for the genre. I love plot, I love romance, if it also has sex scenes in it as icing on the cake (not boring please), I am happy.<< I'm with you re Wicked Gentlemen. I gave it the highest rating on this site. Ginn is also coming out with a sequel I believe. >>I remember reading quite a few books after I read Wicked gentlemen and literally getting angry. I was like, so I got it, the only purpose of existence for your characters is to have sex all the time, how very BORING for me.<< That's the point I'm trying to make. >>By the way, yes I NEVER ever not once was bored with a single sex scene in Jordan Castillo Price Psycop series. In fact I found them exciting, fun, hot and usually advancing a plot.<< This is why I love her books. She's a great writer. I think that most M/M writers have forgotten how to write wonderful stories and depend on sex to fluff them up when there's no plot. One of the most marvelous books that I read in a long time was Almost Like Being in Love by Steve Kluger. If you have a chance to get a copy don't hesitate. You'll be in stitches for a long time. Here's a link to my review (and you can get the book second hand or maybe even at your local library) http://www.gayromance.org/?p=9584 The other romance I mentioned in the post "The One That Got Away" is one I always recommend to readers. >>But in romance? I believe I deserve to read about more than just sex and all the time as a reader. 🙂 . In my opinion of course.<< I'm 100% with you there. Sex is great in these books but it should not be the main course - maybe dessert or a salad. 🙂

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      Hi Wave I LOVED Almost like being in love, thanks for mentioning it, loved 🙂 and so agree with dessert or salad comparison, perfect.

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  Why when it comes to MM romance there is this need to push the envelope? Authors should write a sex scene that fits the tone and is appropriate for the two lovers involved.

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    Katiebabs

    I think that some authors invoke the one dimensional stereotype of gay men when they write M/M. Many of my gay friends who read M/M tell me constantly that they and their friends don’t act like this in a romantic relationship. It’s just like a straight relationship except that it’s two guys.

    Maybe the authors forget they are writing an erotic romance and not erotica.

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      A romance should be about 2 people falling in love regardless of their sexual preference. I think that sometimes gets lost in the pages.

      Why should there be such a focus on sexuality in GLBT romance?

      Just write about 2 people who love each other without all the concern about their sexuality.

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  I’ve learned which publishers will most likely put out the stories that are full of gratuitous sex scenes. They’re often also the ones with the poor line-editing and other problems I’ve seen mentioned here. I only buy from those publishers if I’ve read a 4-star+ review of the story here, actually. I’m a reader, but I’m also an author learning from what I read. I’m getting pickier about what I spend my money on because it’s part of my education for becoming a better writer. All those authors you mentioned, Wave, as well as Josh Lanyon, Harper Fox and LB Gregg, are auto-buys for me anymore because I know I’ll get less senseless smut and more real, well-rounded story.

  Thanks for posting this topic, Wave! –Missy

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    Hi Missy
    Josh has always been an auto buy for me and LB is still new although I’m liking her stuff. Harper Fox just had one book released which I reviewed and I’m impressed. If she keeps up the quality maybe she’ll become an auto buy in the future.

    There are many excellent M/M authors out there and I don’t mean to imply that everyone sucks because that would not be true. It’s just this one area that needs improvement, a lot of improvement. Readers don’t need a how-to manual on gay sex in order to enjoy M/M romance.

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  I have been asked by an editor to add more sex, and raunchier language, to a book. And my readers could TELL where I shoe-horned in a sex scene that had never been planned in the original draft.

  AQP has been very good about letting me write as I think the story needs to be told. If it’s 17% sex, if it’s 30% sex, it’s all good.

  Readers say they want more plot. Then I get figures that say the 55% sex story sells about half-again as many copies as the other. Go figure.

  A book that is chapter after chapter after chapter of sex will end up being put aside. I gave up on a book that I really wanted to like. The major plot was resolved in the first chapter and the rest was finding new and interesting places to screw.

  There are only so many ways to do sex, honestly. And even Anne Rice got repetitive in a three book series.

  I like sex that doesn’t happen. I like the boys to get interrupted at crucial junctures and have to deal with the crisis (mummy attacks, unexpected callers, asteroids, whatever) with half their brain still in the bedroom.

  I like sex that has consequences, positive or negative. Sex that transforms the person having it.

  I like my sex necessary. If your book would make sense without the sex scene, cut the scene. (unless you have your mandatory-sex-scene-with-“frank-language” requirement to meet)

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    Hi Angel

    >>I have been asked by an editor to add more sex, and raunchier language, to a book. And my readers could TELL where I shoe-horned in a sex scene that had never been planned in the original draft.<< I would have thought that having been around as a writer for a while that you would have some clout to be able to tell the editor that you weren't going to include another sex scene. What do I know? :( >>I like sex that doesn’t happen. I like the boys to get interrupted at crucial junctures and have to deal with the crisis (mummy attacks, unexpected callers, asteroids, whatever) with half their brain still in the bedroom.<< This is what I mean, that we need some of the spontaneity back in sex. It's not just two guys jumping in the sack, humping a couple of times and going to sleep. We should get to know them so that when they get into trouble we feel their pain. I do understand what both you and Trace are saying about readers not always speaking the truth when the more erotic title sell a lot. I'm hoping that there's room for all types of M/M romance, but in all cases I want a plot and characters that move me.

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  Excellent post, Wave! You’re right in touch with the m/m fiction questions I’m most curious about these days. 🙂

  I couldn’t improve upon what Jordan and Anne said about the purpose of sex scenes.

  As a writer, I find sex scenes difficult to write — and I’ll write the entire first draft first, and then write the sex scenes so my procrastination on those sex scenes won’t affect my progress on the entire story. The difficulty for me lies in my awareness that there are only so many ways to describe sex, and I don’t want to be repetitive or derivative.

  What helps me is to start asking myself questions about what the sex is revealing about the characters’ interactions with each other and with their surroundings. Things like how does each character feel about himself and his lover and this particular sexual encounter. Shy? Eager? Guilty? Afraid they’ll be observed and arrested if they’re out in public? Inhibited? Disappointed in the ickiness of the hotel room? Are the lovers struggling for power? Having a good laugh? Is one of them taking it more seriously than the other? What are their motives? Revenge? Closeness? Fun? Manipulation?

  As a reader, if I run across too many sex scenes, no matter how well written, I’ll start skimming if I’m not learning anything new about the characters and story through the sex scenes. Too many sex scenes can make a story feel overly long and very slowly paced (though you wouldn’t think sex would slow down a story, ha, ha!). I’m especially bored with that “celebratory sex scene” that sometimes shows up at the very end of a story for no reason and feels like a self-indulgent “bonus” that the author bestows upon the reader.

  Another thing about sex scenes in fiction that can be jarring is the author’s temptation to amp up the kink factor for no apparent reason and with no accompanying context. So suddenly characters are tying each other up and whipping each other with no dialogue or thoughts beforehand to let us know that they’re into the BDSM lifestyle. So, as a reader, I’m wondering, “Whoa, where did that come from?”

  I read an m/m historical awhile back that was shaping up to be an outstanding book, very realistic and very absorbing — until the characters did a fisting scene as if it were just an everyday thing for them. This completely jarred me out of the story because I couldn’t help wondering, “Did people even know about this back then?” At that point, I was thinking too much, and my belief in the story completely disintegrated.

  It was so disappointing because I wanted to stay absorbed in the story’s realism (up to that point). Just my two cents as a reader: amping up the kink factor might backfire unless some context is established ahead of time.

  • 

    Val
    That’s the point – the author should not have to describe all the excruciating details of the sex act. We know where everything is going, why do we need an author to describe every stage? I don’t care how many fingers they use.That’s not important. What’s important is how having sex makes them FEEL towards their lover. Did they touch each other before? Were they emotional about having sex with that person and why? Do they like to play games or be funny during sex? There are so many things an author can writing about without giving readers a sex manual. I sure don’t need one.

    >>Another thing about sex scenes in fiction that can be jarring is the author’s temptation to amp up the kink factor for no apparent reason and with no accompanying context. So suddenly characters are tying each other up and whipping each other with no dialogue or thoughts beforehand to let us know that they’re into the BDSM lifestyle.<< Instead of a really well plotted story authors are now competing with each other to see who can "out kink" each other. If I want to read a BDSM story, I'll buy one but I don't expect a sweet romance turning into one with all the floggers and a St. Andrews Cross. I guess if I were an author I would try to write a scene that contains sex which would excite me, and then I would know that my readers would be just as excited.

  • 

    >>As a writer, I find sex scenes difficult to write — and I’ll write the entire first draft first, and then write the sex scenes so my procrastination on those sex scenes won’t affect my progress on the entire story.<<

    You probably shouldn't go giving away your secrets like that, but thank you for making me realise that it's not "cheating" to write scenes out-of-order… *headdesk*

• 

  Interesting post and discussion. Some of the most erotic scenes I’ve read haven’t been very detailed physically, but have given me a window into a character’s soul and have been the culmination of a build up of sexual tension.

  There is something about the “sex-manual” scene that Wave describes that is so excruciating. There really isn’t any need to detail every step when writing – skip to the interesting bits. Show us what the characters are feeling and why this matters.

  I have a high tolerence of “erotica” when I know that’s what I’m buying and it’s all part of the plot (I love James Lear’s novels), but a story that is romantic and interesting doesn’t have to have graphic sex shoe-horned in. That said, if the writer can do it well then it will be a selling point for me, but not at the expense of plot.

  • 

    Josephine

    >>Some of the most erotic scenes I’ve read haven’t been very detailed physically, but have given me a window into a character’s soul and have been the culmination of a build up of sexual tension.<< In one sentence you have captured the essence of what authors should be trying to portray in their characterizations, which then leads to sex between the protagonists that is emotional and not just the act. I, too, love James Lear and have probably read and enjoyed all of his books. However I know what I'm getting when I buy one of James' books and it's not a romance or even a love story. I love reading about sex when it's done well, but that's not what readers are getting in M/M romances.

• 

  I don’t know what’s happened, but I’ve reached a point where I’m sick of too much sex in a book and have started skimming… a lot. I never used to do that even with erotica where non-stop no plot sex is the norm.

  Maybe it’s that authors have been pushed to add non essential sex to sell more books or, I’ve reached my threshold on reading erotic romance and erotica.

  Whatever it is, I find most sex scenes boring now. And when a book has 3, 4,5 sex scenes that are just there for titillation and not to further the plot or character connection, then I get aggravated and pissed off, wishing for more emotion and connectivity outside of sex.

  • 

    Hi LVLM
    >>Maybe it’s that authors have been pushed to add non essential sex to sell more books or, I’ve reached my threshold on reading erotic romance and erotica.<< I think we all reach a threshhold where we say enough is enough! That's what happened to me after reading these books for such a long time. And you know what? They're getting worse. Boring, excessive sex in M/M books is like a runaway train - we can't stop it because some readers seem to love it. They can't seem to be able to differentiate between quality and quantity, so we all end up with crappy books.

• 

  I’ve been around for six years. And I am not a top seller by any measure. So, no, no clout.

  JCP and Lora Leigh can say “It doesn’t need another sex scene.”

  Brooks and Sparrow had better say “Yes, ma’am. Six more pages of sex, two ‘pussies,’ several more ‘fucks’ and a ‘cunt’ coming right up.” Even if there are no women in the story.

  • 

    Angel
    Jordan can pretty well call her own tune because she now works for herself. 🙂

    The only words that can be used in the books I read are pricks and cocks. 🙂

    Happy July 4th!

• 

  You obviously haven’t read any of my books then 🙂

  I have never written a scene with your 123 formula and I never intend to.

  In my latest, Time of the Soul, I have a time vampire who feeds from his victims by cock-docking with them. Plot is first and foremost the most important thing in my works, as is character. My books constantly rate 4 and 5 stars with words like: talented, exciting, dramatic and wonderful story.

  How about giving some of the authors who do write good plot and solid character who have sex in their books as an enhancement not a chore, a go?

  Just saying 🙂

  Mark Alders

  • 

    Hi Mark

    Thanks for commenting.

    >>In my latest, Time of the Soul, I have a time vampire who feeds from his victims by cock-docking with them. Plot is first and foremost the most important thing in my works, as is character. << This is intriguing. I only found out about docking a couple of years ago. :) I am always willing to review books by "new to me" authors. I was on your website a minute ago and noticed that you write speculative fiction which a few of the reviewers on this site love. Why don't you email me at jessewave@gmail.com. and send me blurbs of a couple of your latest books? I look forward to hearing from you.

    • 

      Thank you. I have emailed you 🙂

      *hugs*

      Mark

• 

  It’s super gratifying to see my initials coming up again and again as a good sex-writer! Thanks for all the kudos 😀

  I’m surprised, with so many readers here feeling they’re bored with redundant smut, that sales numbers just don’t match up. If you look at the top sellers on most ebook sellers’ sites, the PWPs typically outsell the plotty fiction in sheer numbers–as Trace has noted above.

  One way to “vote” for the type of fiction you want to perpetuate (other than boycotting authors/publishers who seem to insert sex in the least sexy places) would be to take the time to add a review and rating to the stories you really like on Amazon. A new Kindle owner is more likely to test the waters on an ebook with 40 great reviews than one with 2 or 3. That way, you’d be helping the “plottier” writers regain some of the sales that their lack of gratuitous sex scenes costs them.

  Before I wrote m/m, I created content for an adult site and I had to get the sex going within a certain number of words or a non-writer would hack up my prose himself, or send it back to me for a rewrite. (I don’t remember how many words exactly, probably 300.) Talk about having to establish character FAST.

  I’ve seen Hemovore trashed by readers who feel disgusted that they read a whole novel and didn’t get a “real” sex scene in return for their time investment. Regardless, I stand by my choice to have that scene understated, because the crux of it was that the characters could touch each other at all. I was pleased Samhain was willing to let me tell the story the way I wanted — despite the lack of intercourse, as well as the probability that my readership might expect me to go into graphic, lengthy detail whether it was appropriate to the story or not.

  My guess is that like attracts like, and the readership of this blog represents a certain m/m aesthetic. I’m glad. It means there’s a place for plottier m/m, even if PWPs still outsell it.

  • 

    Hi Jordan, I keep seeing your name pop up but have not read anything by you yet. What would you recommend I start with?

    • 

      You’ve come to the right place for recs about Jordan’s books. She’s the Queen of the paranormals and has several series, all of which are reviewed on the site. If you look on the right hand sidebar, under “Authors” click on the letter “J” you’ll see her name. All you have to do then is click on it and all the reviews will come up.

      Jordan’s best known series that I always recommend is PsyCop which is up to 5 books now with a 6th scheduled for the end of this year. You can buy the books in print or ebook. Here’s her website

      http://www.jordancastilloprice.com

    • 

      If paranormals aren’t your bag, Sympathy and Sleepwalker might be good choices. They both explore themes of frailty and family.

      The first half of Among the Living can be read for free at GLBT Bookshelf, and there’s also a free online novel called Zero Hour at my website you can try if you like SF.

      I’m a big believer in try-before-you-buy!

  • 

    Jordan

    >>It’s super gratifying to see my initials coming up again and again as a good sex-writer! Thanks for all the kudos 😀<< Maybe we should make a few authors read your books to see how it's done or you should write a manual "everything you always wanted to know about M/M sex, but were afraid to ask" :) >>One way to “vote” for the type of fiction you want to perpetuate (other than boycotting authors/publishers who seem to insert sex in the least sexy places) would be to take the time to add a review and rating to the stories you really like on Amazon<< I used to post some of my reviews on Amazon until all of the weirdos (as in authors) started stalking those reviewers whose reviews they didn't like. Really scary!! I haven't posted a review there in about three months for this reason. I hope that the readers on this site, by demanding better quality books with actual plots, may influence a few changes in this sub genre. Wouldn't it be great if that were to happen? But that's wishful thinking on my part because readers will still buy PWP.

• 

  Wave, I do wish. Especially in a two-man story (no other characters). That’s where the requirement got ridiculous. Then again, for $600, I can be creative and work with it…even if I feel ridiculous.

  I think terminology has a lot to do with how interesting sex scenes are as well.

  If all we ever use is cock, it gets dull. Give them dicks and pricks and manhoods, staffs and family pride and landing struts, serpants and Eve’s Tempter and bits of beef and shafts other than the grey goose one. Just avoid gross ones, like bloated mushrooms and custard chuckers.

  Don’t just have them come/cum. Let them spend and shoot forth, and explode and go nova.

  Skip the fingers. If they’re beyond condoms, try spit instead of Astroglide. It does work. Or skip the lube entirely. Some men DO like that.

  Or skip the anal sex. Some gay men never do it at all. Frot off. Now there’s some manly, phallic-worshipping sex. Do blow jobs. Hand jobs. Interfemoral, like the Greeks.

  Just my two cents. I’d like to see more frotting personally.

  • 

    Angel

    I love frotting and wish there’s was more of it in M/M. It’s a ‘forgotten’ physical outlet. 🙂

    >>Give them dicks and pricks and manhoods, staffs and family pride and landing struts, serpants and Eve’s Tempter and bits of beef and shafts other than the grey goose one. Just avoid gross ones, like bloated mushrooms and custard chuckers.<< "custard chuckers"?

• 

  When I first began reading m/m about 3 years ago, any sex scenes were new and interesting and I bought anything that sounded like a reasonably decent story. But it didn’t take long to begin skimming then skipping them when the scenes became the “1 finger, 2 fingers, etc” over and over and without anything to add to the story. I vote with my money now – if a publisher or a writer doesn’t provide a good story of a reasonable quality, I don’t buy any more from them. And I totally ignore any ‘heat rating’.

  • 

    Celeste

    >>But it didn’t take long to begin skimming then skipping them when the scenes became the “1 finger, 2 fingers, etc” over and over and without anything to add to the story.<< I used to think it was just me when the sex in these books became boring but then I realized that others must be feeling the same way I did. After the latest poll on "How Do You Like Your M/M Erotic Romance?" I realized that other readers felt the same way. >>I vote with my money now – if a publisher or a writer doesn’t provide a good story of a reasonable quality, I don’t buy any more from them. And I totally ignore any ‘heat rating’.<< Good for you! I try to buy books that barely make it to be classified as "erotic," because I realize that those are the ones that have some plot.

• 

  Interesting post, Wave! And thanks for including me as an auto-buy, MANtastic. I auto-love you!!

  I can honestly say that I’ve never had any pub I’ve worked with ask me to add more sex. I’ve had them ask me to remove the truck load of grammatical errors. ; ) But never a peep about sex. Of course, that could just mean they read the sex scenes I’d already written and decided enough was enough. : )

  I will cop to being an occasional skipper of sex in books, regardless of the author. If the author writes a great sex scene and I skip it, I likely just have a headache, honey.

  I’m not sure I succeed at writing hot sex, and I’m not sure I’m even trying to. I do know I’m always looking for ways to insert humor in my sex, and sometimes that is easier than others. I often find NOT having sex to be way more erotic than having it. I do think that at this point in my own writing my only criteria for the sex, funny or not, is that it feel organic. The NOT having it is merely my way of torturing readers…kidding!! : )

  • 

    Ethan

    >>Of course, that could just mean they read the sex scenes I’d already written and decided enough was enough. : )<< That's what I love about your writing - it's always funny, even the sex! :) >>I will cop to being an occasional skipper of sex in books, regardless of the author.<< If authors and readers admit to skipping sex scenes, why do some publishers insist on having as many of them as possible in these books? >>I do know I’m always looking for ways to insert humor in my sex, and sometimes that is easier than others. I often find NOT having sex to be way more erotic than having it.<< That's one of the points I wish that more authors would get. Sometimes the sex scene that's omitted is even more erotic than the one that's included. We don't need cum by the bucket full to enjoy these books. We need more intelligent dialogue, two protagonists that are well drawn and who can have fun together sometimes, a good plot and some well placed humour even during sex. I don't think that's too much to ask for. When are you going to send me At Piper's Point?

    • 

      There’s a learning curve with writing, just like any other profession. The more you do it the better you get. It’s also very easy for all of us to sit back and point out things we think are wrong, but writing isn’t easy. It’s a little like masturbation in that it’s something you normally do by yourself. Just because you climax doesn’t necessarily mean you did your best. There’s not a group of co-workers cheering you on or offering suggestions as you tap away on the keyboard. When all you have to count on is yourself, it’s very easy to take a wrong turn. Having crit partners who will be honest with you is a great idea, especially if you’re new to writing. But again, that only works if you have people who will tell you the truth. And be truthful in a constructive manner.

      I will say that sometimes I just want the romance and don’t care about the sex, and other times I want it all. So skipping a sex scene often has more to do with my whims than anything else. And I guess I’m unfamiliar with the pubs that require a sex count. Publishing is a business, and we’re all doing this to make money, even those of us who love doing it.

      I can say with all confidence that there are pubs and writers who do care about the genre and want to see it continue to grow and succeed. Just like there are sites like this one who are passionate about the genre and want more and better. All the authors I personally know want to give it to you, along with the peeps behind those pubs like Treva, Laura, and Trace. (There’s plenty more out there, those are just the few I’ve actually had contact with.)

      And Piper’s Point still has to pass through proofing at LI and one last read through by me before it’s ready for the world…and you. : )

• 

  Well . . . believable motivation is the key for me, I guess. And a tone that suits the characters’ personalities (assuming they have personalities). I don’t really take issue with how the deed is done or how often or seldom it’s done. Sex is more defined by its emotional content, or lack thereof, than its mechanics.

  If I’m engaged by the characters, they can range from chaste to promiscuous and pretty much do anything with each other they choose. It’s all about good writing.

  • 

    Hi K.Z.

    Thanks for commenting.

    >>Sex is more defined by its emotional content, or lack thereof, than its mechanics.<< >>It’s all about good writing.<< That's what we would love as readers: to have the sex "defined by its emotional content" but all we get now (mostly) are the mechanics. I'm not a writer but I can recognize good writing and unfortunately that's not what we're getting most of the time. Readers love M/M because it's a wonderful change from all the TSTL heroines in M/F, but I think there's a danger that it could go off on a path that's even worse - one dimensional characters whose only interest is sex. We all love sex but if it's in the book it should not be a throw-in but something that advances the plot, is fun and enjoyable. Otherwise, why include it?

  • 

    >>Well . . . believable motivation is the key for me, I guess. And a tone that suits the characters’ personalities (assuming they have personalities). I don’t really take issue with how the deed is done or how often or seldom it’s done. Sex is more defined by its emotional content, or lack thereof, than its mechanics.

    If I’m engaged by the characters, they can range from chaste to promiscuous and pretty much do anything with each other they choose. It’s all about good writing.<<

    That is it exactly!

    Thanks for putting this topic into focus again, Wave.

    I have been too late to answer in the "What do readers want in m/m" poll but already felt free to rant about too much boring sex and not enough plot after the quote that publishers "REQUEST more sex scenes" in the discussion about the "Shorts".

    I do read (some) "m/m romance" books but I have several (female) friends who love to read gay fiction with gay characters which can contain gay sex, but they wouldn't touch "m/m romance" with tweezers, because they are
    – too slashy / sweet
    – too much focus on the "romance"
    – too unrealistic
    – often badly written
    – have hideous covers which are a turn-off

    (Okay, there have been two or three exceptions because of a certain irresistible plot line, that's why I didn't say they wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. ;-))

    In a German book forum we have a thread for "gay book" recommendations (and one for "lesbian books" respectively). Recently I recommended "Promises" by Marie Sexton and one (female) forum member mailed me, asking about the erotic content, because the review at Amazon.de warned about that. I told her, the erotic content expands the relationship between Jared and Matt and is well done and not too much. A couple of days ago, she mailed me again, she read the book in one afternoon and really liked it.

    So, here are several readers who potentially would buy MORE books with a "gay plot" if the quality would be recognizable and consistent.

    As stated by authors and publishers, according to the sales figures there is an audience for the "heat level 3" books, but there is also an audience for books with a complex plot (and hotness does NOT depend on explicitly written sex!!!!!).

    It doesn't have to be "either – or", publishers should rethink their marketing to sell books also to that potential audience!

    • 

      Hi Quinn

      Thank you for commenting and giving your perspective on this very touchy topic.

      >>but already felt free to rant about too much boring sex and not enough plot after the quote that publishers “REQUEST more sex scenes” in the discussion about the “Shorts”.<< I should point out that only some of the publishers do this and most of them are very professional and ethical in dealing with their authors. there is no doubt that sex sells and the authors love the extra money as much as the publishers. Check out the comment by Trace Edward Zaber of Amber Allure about the other side of the picture. >>As stated by authors and publishers, according to the sales figures there is an audience for the “heat level 3” books, but there is also an audience for books with a complex plot (and hotness does NOT depend on explicitly written sex!!!!!). << We are both agreed that hotness and less sex are not mutually exclusive. I have read many books with minimal sex that steamed up the pages and books with sex in every chapter that left me cold. I think if the authors pursue the current trend of sexing up these books where there is obviously no need to do so, discerning readers will continue to be dissatisfied and some of us may give up in disgust. Definitely there are markets for both types of books - romances, as well as books that are one step away from erotica and almost verging on PWP. I wish you had been in time for my wrap up on the poll on "How Do You Like Your M/M Erotic Romance?". You can still comment and leave your views for posterity since the comments are not closed. 🙂

    • 

      Hi Quinn,

      I would be really interested in knowing which German forum you are referring to. I am always on the look-out for recommendations.

      Thanks,
      Patricia

      • 

        Hi Patricia,

        I planned to add some of my favourites in the comments for the “Readers Favourite Gay Books”. 😉

        I suppose you know “Adrian Mayfield / Schijnbewegingen” and the sequel by Floortje Zwigtman? She is Dutch and Aline Sax is a young Belgian author (“Eine Welt dazwischen / Wij, twee jongens “). They have written some great historical YA novels, which are very enjoyable for grown-up readers too.

        I’ve just seen Aline Sax has been translated into English too. 🙂 But the book is not available yet.

        “We, Two Boys”
        Escaping from their burdensome poverty, twin brothers Adriaan and Alexander’s family emigrates from Belgium to New York City. Unfortunately, things don’t go according to plan, and Adriaan is the only one who eventually arrives in America. Alone in the city, he becomes overwhelmed and grows homesick. But before he can prepare for his trip back, he finds a reason to stay—an American boy named Jack. Powerful and strikingly honest in its portrayal of adolescent homosexuality, this is an engaging example of how some accidents can happen for the best.

        The Forum is http://www.buechereule.de and the link to the rec thread:
        http://www.buechereule.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=27213&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=3

        And because about 95 % of the book recommendations in the “gay books” thread are by women, one guy asked:
        “Why do women want to read about gay men?”
        😉

        If you are interested in that thread:
        http://www.buechereule.de/wbb2/thread.php?postid=1055256#post1055256

• 

  I’m with you — sex that doesn’t pull its weight in the story, that is, doesn’t advance the plot, or show character, or develop the relationship, or something bores me and I skim over it. If I do more skimming than reading, I start thinking grumbly thoughts about most of the money I spent on the book was wasted. :/

  Some writers definitely do pack as much sex as they can into their books. There might be an excellent plot, well-rounded and sympathetic characters, and great writing, but of chapter after chapter is pointless sex, that’s annoying IMO. I think of these books as twenty pounds of sex in a five pound plot.

  We are REQUIRED to have a certain percentage of words that are sex, REQUIRED to start sex within a certain number of pages, and REQUIRED to keep it active and hot throughout the book.

  I’ve heard that too, from multiple writers about multiple publishers. All I can say is that I’ll probably never submit anything to those publishers. [shrug] That’s not the kind of story I enjoy reading, and that’s not the kind of story I write. I mean, sure, if you’re writing a short story with even one sex scene in it, there’s going to be a lot of sex in the story proportionally. But once you hit novella and novel length, pointless sex for the sake of sex really stands out. Mind you, there’s a market for it — plenty of authors write this kind of book over and over and they keep selling gangbusters, so obviously there’s a good sized audience that likes that sort of thing. Good for them, and I’m glad there are books for them to read. I just wish there were some way of differentiating between the pointless-sex books and the books where all the sex (however little or much there is) pulls its weight, so the people who like twenty pounds of sex in a five pound plot can find what they want, and those of us who don’t care for that kind of book can avoid them.

  This is one of the reasons I like my publisher. Torquere doesn’t require any particular amount of sex in a book, or any sex at all. I include sex when the story requires it, period, and if that means 1.5 sex scenes in a 72K word novel, that’s what it means and that’s fine with my publisher. The standard wisdom around this end of the business is that HOT!HOT!MOREHOT!!! is what sells best, and looking at the top-selling publishers, that seems to be true. For myself, though, I’m willing to accept the likelihood of less money if it means I’m free to write my books however I like, and include sex only when I myself think it fits and is necessary.

  And when I run into other authors who write the same way, they become favorites of mine as a reader.

  Angie

  PS — one of my own favorite examples of how to get lots of sex, and a lot of it kinky, into a story while still making sure that every bit of it serves the story and pulls its weight is Laney Cairo’s Bad Case of Loving You. The first few times I read it, I came out with the impression that there wasn’t much sex in it. It was only after these kinds of discussions started a few years ago that I went back and read it again while paying attention to how much sex is actually in it, and realized that it’s quite a lot. That’s how I prefer a book with a lot of sex in it.

  • 

    Hi Angie
    Thanks for commenting

    >>Some writers definitely do pack as much sex as they can into their books. There might be an excellent plot, well-rounded and sympathetic characters, and great writing, but of chapter after chapter is pointless sex, that’s annoying IMO. I think of these books as twenty pounds of sex in a five pound plot.<< I think I'll use your last sentence - I love it. Why can't authors see this if the readers can? >>I just wish there were some way of differentiating between the pointless-sex books and the books where all the sex (however little or much there is) pulls its weight, so the people who like twenty pounds of sex in a five pound plot can find what they want, and those of us who don’t care for that kind of book can avoid them. << Unfortunately that's what reviewers do - we tell readers which books to avoid - and authors get pissed at us when we say there's no plot only sex in their books. They complain to their publishers who get mad as well, but someone has to tell the truth. >>The standard wisdom around this end of the business is that HOT!HOT!MOREHOT!!! is what sells best, and looking at the top-selling publishers, that seems to be true.<< You're right. However I'm usually looking to buy a book with a plot and the last time I checked sex wasn't considered "plot". There are many authors whose books I avoid because I know exactly what they are selling and I'm not buying. Funny you should mention Laney Cairo's Bad Case of Loving You because Alexi just reviewed it on the site. Here's the link in case you want to read what she had to say :) http://www.gayromance.org/?p=25449

    • 

      [goes to read]

      [comes back]

      Alexi has excellent taste. 🙂 I had to comment over there too, and rave a bit with like-minded folks.

      Feel free to use the “twenty pounds of sex in a five pound plot” line; I’d love it to become common. [innocent humming]

      Sex can be plot; it depends how the writer uses it. Unfortunately a lot of writers either haven’t figured that out, haven’t figured out how to manage it, or just don’t care. And considering how well some of the SEX!SEX!SEX!!! authors sell, I have to admit they don’t have much incentive to change how they do things.

      And seriously, so long as there are readers who like that sort of thing, I’m fine with writers writing that sort of thing and publishers publishing it. As I said above, I just wish there were some way of marking which books those are so that the people who like them can find them, and the people who don’t like them can avoid them. Kind of like Dreamspinner has their Timeless Dreams line for their wallpaper historicals, so people who like them know where to find them and people who don’t can avoid them. (Which I think is an awesome idea, and one they haven’t been given nearly enough credit for.) Why can’t publishers have a special “Moar Sexxorz!!” line or designation, so the sexxorz fans know where to spend their money and the rest of us can spend ours elsewhere? [sigh] I’d spend the same amount; I’d just choose differently. Heck, I might spend more if I didn’t have to be so cautious.

      Angie

• 

  Wow, that was a LOT of comments! I’m afraid I kind of skimmed…

  Wave, thanks for an interesting and informative post. I am honored to be included in the list of authors whose sex scenes make the grade for you, so thanks for that as well 😀

  I have to admit, I tend to be kind of brutal toward any form of entertainment — books included — that I find lacking. That said, however, I usually save my worst scorn for plot problems *g* I’ve skipped many, many dull sex scenes, though (not lately because I haven’t had time to READ anything lately), and it does irritate me if I end up skipping a significant portion of the book that way. Sex should always, always forward the plot in some way, usually through character development. FSM knows I try to do that, though I’m sure I’ve failed at times. We all do. Nobody’s perfect, after all 🙂

  I’ve never had a publisher ask me to add more sex. Well, okay, once, but that was for a story that I already knew was supposed to be super-sexy — one of those special calls — so that really shouldn’t count. I’ve been very lucky to work with publishers and editors who allow me to write the story the way it needs to be written, and let the sex happen — or not — when, where, and how it should.

  BTW, Kleenex sticks to a guy’s dick when he wipes off with it after sex. Little pieces of Kleenex all over. Just sayin’ O_O
  (and I’ve never used little Kleenex bits in a story and DAMN but now I wanna and it’s ALL WAVE’S FAULT! heh)

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    >>BTW, Kleenex sticks to a guy’s dick when he wipes off with it after sex. Little pieces of Kleenex all over. Just sayin’ O_O<<

    One of many reasons why I like historical novels – handkerchiefs are far less likely to fall apart, lol.

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    Hi Ally

    >>Wow, that was a LOT of comments! I’m afraid I kind of skimmed… << WHAT? You thought you were reading a M/M book with lots of sex? Lucky for you this is free or you would have wasted your money. :) >>I am honored to be included in the list of authors whose sex scenes make the grade for you, so thanks for that as well 😀 << I'm sure many guys must have told you (when you were dating) that having sex with you made the grade. LOL >>I’ve been very lucky to work with publishers and editors who allow me to write the story the way it needs to be written, and let the sex happen — or not — when, where, and how it should.<< Ally, you have been very lucky to work with editors at Samhain which is one of the better publishers, but many authors complain about being requested to shoehorn sex into their books in scenes where it's totally unnecessary. Of course there are many sleazy publishers who basically tell new authors to either get with the program or get out. On the other hand, if enough authors tell them to f**k off maybe a few of them will see the light. >>BTW, Kleenex sticks to a guy’s dick when he wipes off with it after sex. Little pieces of Kleenex all over. Just sayin’ O_O
    (and I’ve never used little Kleenex bits in a story and DAMN but now I wanna and it’s ALL WAVE’S FAULT! heh)<< Remember what I said in the post about sex not being fun anymore in these books? Well I dare you to include this scene in your next book. I dare you!!!

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      You are ON! I’m doing it! Keep your eyeballs peeled for that speshul Kleenex moment, bay-bee! Ha!
      (not in the next two that are coming out though because they are already written and edited… but the one after THOSE!)

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        I’ve created a monster. I always knew that these Friday posts were educational. 🙂

        I can’t wait .. please don’t make me wait too long.

        I keep telling M/M authors that we need more FUN when the guys are having sex and you’re going to prove my point by giving them a demonstration. !! LOL

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  Sex for the sake of sex novels really annoy me. I’ve deleted SO many of them from my Reader.

  If the novel doesn’t have an actual plot or interesting, endearing characters I don’t usually finish it. Long, uninspired sex scenes have me turning and flipping pages in speed read mode.

  But I always try to give the novel a chance. For instance, I started a novel (I actually forgot I’d had on my Reader) earlier this week. It was “A Matter of Necessity” by author McKinney. I was somewhat dismayed to open it to page one and, bam, sex. But I was pleasantly surprised when, once I got to chapter 2, it turned out to be a really fun, wonderful read with characters I fell in love with. The dialogue was quite clever and the secondary characters a hoot. Anyone know if there was ever a sequel to “A Matter of Necessity” ?

  Pages and pages of sex just doesn’t work for me at all. I need a story, a plot, characterization, i.e. Josh Lanyon, Tere Michaels, Sean Kennedy, Libby Drew, Katie Allen.

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    Hi MaDonna

    >>But I always try to give the novel a chance. For instance, I started a novel (I actually forgot I’d had on my Reader) earlier this week. It was “A Matter of Necessity” by author McKinney. I was somewhat dismayed to open it to page one and, bam, sex. But I was pleasantly surprised when, once I got to chapter 2, it turned out to be a really fun, wonderful read with characters I fell in love with.<< All of the authors mentioned by you are my favourites. I'm glad you brought up A Matter of Necessity by T.D. McKinney because I absolutely loved that book and rated it 5 stars exactly 2 years ago. I sent the author an email today asking her whether she intends to revisit the characters any time soon. If you email me in a few days I should have an answer for you. 🙂 UPDATE T.D. McKinney responded to my email. Apparently she has a plot outline for a sequel but it might be a while before she can write it because she has three stories ahead of it.

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  Coming in late! Though I’ve enjoyed reading the comments I’ve been a tad distracted. Anyway, I think for me it’s not a question of how much sex. There could be loads and I might still find the story riveting, it’s what I call interchangeable sex scenes that bother me. The ones where in emotional terms at least you could shuffle them around into different parts of the book and nobody would notice.

  Okay, I don’t want people overthinking during sex, but I do still want to see something of their inner lives and what they think this particular bit of sex means for the development of their relationship. If it’s a more established relationship then okay, it’s more routine, but if it’s a new relationship as is the case in most romance stories, they can be learning something new about each other the first few times.

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    Hi JFM

    >>Okay, I don’t want people overthinking during sex, but I do still want to see something of their inner lives and what they think this particular bit of sex means for the development of their relationship.<< Maybe a few authors need to re-think what they are feeding us. As I said in the post, I have no problem with a lot of sex in these books. I read a few M/M/M romances that I love, but when the sex is meaningless and just shoehorned into the story for no purpose other than to bloat the word count, I don't finish the book unless I have to review it . And to top it off, most of the sex is paint by numbers, which makes it boring.

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  I read “The One that Got Away” on your recommendation, and was sorely disappointed. The characters were unconvincing and the plot nonexistent. I was bored to tears by the end.

  On the other hand, I also read “Hemavore” by Jordan Castillo Price and had a jolly good time with it. It is a suspenseful mystery/romance where the two main characters happened to be male and gay. To be honest, I could’ve done with just a little more sex in it, but it was such an enjoyable read that I don’t mind. I ordered three more of her books.

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    Sqyd

    I’m very surprised that you were disappointed by The One That Got Away. You’re the first reader who has ever expressed disappointment with this book. I guess this proves that tastes in books run the gamut, because this is this writing partnership’s best selling book.

    At least I’m happy that you enjoyed Jordan’s books which are totally different. Perhaps your expectations of TOTGA were for a different type of book rather than a sweet romance. In my review I said that there was no conflict but I loved the book because of other reasons.

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  Well, to be fair, the descriptions were fine, it was the setup I found unconvincing. But I have JCP now, so all is well.

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    I think I said that JCP was one of my favourite writers so if you’ve found her books you are in a good place. There’s a post on the site today about a sale on the first two books in Jordan’s PsyCop series – 2 for 1 – so if you haven’t bought or read them as yet, you’re in for a treat. Happy reading. 🙂

    BTW there are many authors who everyone else loves that I, too, can’t figure out why. 🙂 It’s simply a matter of taste.

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