This is a FUN post so please don’t beat up the author. I asked him to write this post and I hope you will show your usual sense of fun, fairness and tolerance on a subject about which I know most of you have strong feelings.
I did a post a few weeks ago where I posed a question about cheating in M/M romances.
“If someone is not in a committed relationship and chooses to date and have sex with another man would this be considered cheating?”
In my opinion this is clearly dating because no promises were made. Many of you disagreed because you wanted to preserve the pristine state of “romance” in books, so you didn’t think that guys should have sex with anyone except the other protagonist who may or may not be their One True Love.
I thought that was unrealistic so I asked a couple of gay men to provide their points of view in the post – one was Ethan Day, author, who waxed eloquent about why it was not cheating but he still wanted his HEA. The other person was TJ a ‘regular’ blogger on the site. TJ and I had a few discussions on the topic and I challenged him to write a piece on cheaters, so here’s TJ’s very funny take on a touchy topic. 🙂
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It’s funny how we all have these beliefs about what’s right and wrong, and what we like and dislike, without really ever thinking too deeply about where they come from or if we really still think and feel the same as we mature. Recently, I was speaking with Wave about cheaters in m/m books and I had said that I really didn’t like reading about cheaters and would not tolerate one in my RL. Wave then said that if I ever change my mind (about the books), I should try reading Chris Owen’s Bareback, as it is one of her favorite books, but to be warned – there is cheating in it.
WHAT?!
There was cheating in Bareback? Where was I when that happened? How did I get through that book? I HATE cheaters and I remember vividly that I loved that book. Yeah, there was some kind of conflict in the middle of the book, but what I held onto most is that the characters of Tor and Jake were so wonderful, so believable, so HOT! (Can we talk about that 4-way scene?) How is it possible that in only a few years I could have completely forgotten such a major plot point in a really great book? PTSD? Middle age forgetfulness? (But I never lose my car keys) Hmm…
Afterwards, that conversation kept coming back to me and had me really thinking about how I could’ve forgotten the cheating in Bareback and what I really thought about cheating in general. What would I really do if a man I loved cheated on me?
Over time I started to believe that my mysterious memory loss was because the book was so well written that the struggles that Tor and Jake went through just melded into the tapestry that made their relationship great. Picking out one thread of that tapestry was now almost impossible to do, without ruining the whole effect in my memory. Man, that Chris Owen can write!
In real life – yes I would be really hurt by a cheating guy but, depending on the circumstances, I would probably try to get past it and forgive him if we were truly committed to each other. It would be extremely conceited of me to act as if I were perfect and never screwed up. I am not saying that cheating is okay or all cheating should be tolerated or forgiven, as I still feel that some things are just unforgivable. But I do think that the intent at the heart of the cheating is the key here. Was he trying to hurt me? Well then, no, I wouldn’t forgive him.
As I continued to ponder this subject, I realized that I’ve read other really good books where there was some form of cheating. Look at Jake Riordan in Josh Lanyon’s Adrien English series. *sigh* (I love Jake). Wait, where was I? Oh yeah… Not only did Jake fall for Adrien and have a wife at one point, but also a thing for S&M clubs and one very kinky actor. That boy was b-u-s-y. I don’t know how he found the time for it all.
But in the end I forgave Jake, as did Adrien. Why? Because I truly felt that they loved each other and belonged together. As Adrien says at the end of Death of A Pirate King “Yeah, it means something”. After all they’d been through, it still mattered what happened to Jake, and it still mattered that Jake would do anything for Adrien. That’s one of the best endings to a book that I’ve ever read. I still get goose bumps when I read it. And these were some of my first m/m books, and are at the top of my list of very favorite books ever! I’ve re-read them over and over again.
Coincidently, in Wave’s recent post “What are your expectations of m/m romances?”, the always eloquent Ethan Day said:
“This issue of cheating bugs me. Is a man who cheats forever to be deemed unworthy of love? That’s it, one strike and you’re out? No exceptions? Because what that feels like to me is, no compassion. And isn’t that kinda-sorta the same emotion the guy who cheated likely had, to begin with?”
That really got my wheels turning. Yes, cheating is bigger on the screw-up scale than say, forgetting your man’s birthday, but is real love only strong enough to survive life’s easier problems? Is Ethan right, that condemning cheaters shows a lack of compassion? And in the end, has all of this soul searching given me an answer as to why I didn’t want to read about cheaters or where that idea came from? I’m thinking yeah, my cheating phobia is one of the by-products of the society I was raised in, and now that I’ve actually thought about it, maybe don’t entirely agree with it anymore. If I can actually forget the whole cheating in Bareback, and forgive Jake Riordan and maybe even forgive a guy that I love for cheating, why am I saying that I’m against reading about it? Well since I did read Bareback and the Adrien English series, and loved them both, I guess that’s not true… Huh.
So let me turn this over to you. Take a minute and ask yourself – How do you really feel about cheating in your stories? If we truly believe that good stories should have believable characters, then shouldn’t that include cheaters? And like me, haven’t you ever read a book that had some kind of cheater in it, that you truly enjoyed despite that?
Me – I’m off to reread Bareback to see what happened in those missing bits. On the upside, it’ll be like reading it for the first time!
(I guess I shouldn’t tell TJ that if he has Bareback in print, the electronic version is about 10K longer with sex scenes that were deleted from the print version, according to Chris Owen) 😉
Lovely post TJ. I guess I am one of those readers who do not mind cheaters in my stories at all, as long as they are believable, redeemable characters. I mean, really, seriously, why not? I always want happy (or at least hopeful) ending in my romances, but I will like any realistic touch that fits the story before the ending and yes that includes cheating.
I remember talking about Z.A.Maxfield’s story Drawn together on Amazon and misreading the story (somebody else also misread it) in a sense that we thought one of the protagonists cheated on each other and then author commented that it did not happened. I think she also said something along the lines that her editor would have never allowed it or something like that. And I was thinking why the heck not? In my view the guy behave as patronizing *sshole and while I do not think that cheating is a way to deal with it at all, it HAPPENS. And forgiveness in my view would have been in order. 🙂
Anyway, thank you again.
Thanks Sirius. You got my point exactly. I like to read about believable characters, which means they are flawed and make mistakes. And who doesn’t love a happy or hopeful ending? I actually think I prefer hopeful, rather than tied up in a neat package.
Yeah yeah, I didn’t love Bareback and the cheating had nothing to do with it. LOL That didn’t bother me, well, literarily speaking. I think it’s the type of cheaters. We all know men and women who sneak around behind their partner’s backs and will screw anything that moves. It’s almost a game for them and it’s all about their gratification. Then there are cheaters who carry on long-term affairs with someone at the same time they are in a relationship (Jake I suppose although I haven’t read those books yet) and then there is the drunken fuck with a hooker at the bachelor party.
Some I can forgive much more easily than others, or at least understand. The first? Not so much although I read AM Riley’s Immortality is the Suck and Adam is a total dick-head. He’ll fuck anyone while he’s been seeing his guy forever and he doesn’t really care, it’s just release. I should have hated him, I didn’t.
For me cheating is not the be all and end all of romantic crimes, either in books or real life.
And I can’t believe you forgot Tor cheated. LOL Selective memory? 🙂
Tam you are too funny! It is the type of cheater that makes all the difference. If their intent is to hurt someone, well that’s not so forgivable. But if they are a player, and always have been, well then you get what you get.
And how could you have not read AE? *gasp* LOL
Yeah– cheaters, written ’em, forgiven ’em. I always figure that when the cheating has nothing to do with the person cheated ON, it’s forgivable, at least in literature, and probably in real life too. (My husband, on the other hand, thinks they should all be flayed and dipped in salt. This also makes me happy. Go figure:-)
Hi Amy,
I’m glad you got what I was trying to say – that as long as the cheating has nothing to do with the person cheated on, then the character might actually be redeemable.
Love your husband’s idea too. Sometimes these guys just aren’t forgivable. LOL.
I’m with Sirius: cheaters in a story are okay as long as they’re realistic and the cheating isn’t something for sensation of the moment. A cheater can be forgiven and the couple can love again if it’s handled right. I like romance in my stories, but romance without being realistic turns me off and away from it.
Wonderful article!
Hi Meredith,
You got that right. Realism is very important for me in books too. I think if the cheating and resolution of it’s effects are handled realistically, it can make for a very satisfying story.
You also have to think about what is considered cheating. In RL so many guys have open relationships. They have sex with other men and talk about it openly with their partners. Is that cheating? Do they have to be together, in a threesome for it not to be considered cheating?
That’s a very good point Ken. Although I was only thinking about monogomous relationships between 2 guys, there are many people who have open relationships. I wouldn’t consider that to be cheating as long as the partners abide by the ground rules that they agreed to.
Thanks for bringing this up.
I thought this was a great post. Nice job, TJ. Granted, the theme of forgiveness pops up in a lot of my work. It’s interesting to me to explore the harm people do each other, even when they genuinely love — and how much someone can take before the hurt or betrayal crosses into unforgivable territory.
I do think as we mature and broaden our experiences, the more tolerant we are about other people’s failings.
Gosh, I hadn’t thought about you reading this Josh! Thank you for the kind words. You really do a fine job exploring hurt and forgiveness with your characters. A Vintage Affair really made me think hard about if I could forgive that kind of betrayal. Really great book!
Thanks for stopping by.
Cheating in books is a non-issue for me. It is so often such an integral part of the plot, that without it, the book would definitely not be the same. I look at it as a learning opportunity for life. We get a glimpse into some of the reasons why someone might cheat, but more importantly, how to overcome it if someone does.
I did not forget about the cheating in Bareback, but neither did I dwell on or think it ruined the book. And I am so glad I did not know it before I read the book. That would have been such a spoiler for me!!
Great post!
Kathy
TJ and I discussed illustrating Bareback as one of the books with cheaters. While there was a concern that this might be considered a spoiler, BB has been out since 2003 and most of the reviews on amazon and elsewhere mentioned Tor’s cheating. Unless someone has been living under a rock I didn’t feel that this would be a problem.
With regard to AE, just about every M/M fan who has heard about this series has also heard about Jake’s cheating, so, again I don’t believe there’s an issue there.
Wave, I wasn’t implying anything about y’all giving away a spoiler in Bareback. I was one of those people living under a rock, and I had no clue it was in the book :-). I’m glad I didn’t know it ahead of time. The story just unfolded naturally for me, and I think if I had known, I would have been anticipating it, and I might not have viewed the story in the same light.
I don’t read reviews before I’ve read a book. I’m one of those readers who don’t want to know anything about the book but what the blurb tells me. I read reviews when I’m done to see if other readers got the same thing from it as I did.
Hey Kathy,
That’s a great way to look at it – a learning opportunity for life. I really like that. I find that I learn a lot about myself too, while reading the more realistic story lines. As I said to Josh above, it makes me think about how I feel and what I would do in a similar situation.
Well I am not crazy about cheating and I dread it when I see it coming in a story, but if the characters deal with it and are able to move past it then I don’t think it hurts the book it might even be crucial to the story. In his post Siruis mentioned Drawn Together, I love that book and even when I thought cheating might have occured I still loved it. That said there have been times that I have wanted to through my reader across the room because of characters cheating and had it been a paperback I probably would have.
I’m with you there Amanda. There are lots of times that I want to throw the book or my reader across the room. One book I read recently had me cringing through an entire scene, but isn’t it pretty amazing that an author can make us feel so strongly!
I don’t mind cheaters in books. Romance stories are about overcoming obstacles to find true love. Cheating is a symptom of a larger problem in a relationship, so it is a great way to illustrate an emotional disconnect between characters.
Then again, I don’t mind open or poly relationships either. Monogamy doesn’t equal love to me, so there is room for all kinds of relationships in the romances I read. 🙂
Hi Diane,
You’re probably right about cheating being a symptom of something bigger going on in the relationship, or at least with the one character. It’s an effective way to highlight those issues. Good point.
BTW, TJ is not ignoring you – he’s at work and it happens to be one of his busiest days. He WILL be responding to comments much later today.
I think it’s all about context. Not an m/m example, but the topic makes me think of books like Erica Jong’s Fear of Flying in which the protagonist is trapped in a bad marriage, and the fact that she cheats on her husband is the whole point, the act of cheating is how the character becomes fully-actualized. And real life is rarely so cut and dry that you can draw clear lines like cheaters = bad, forever and always, because that’s really not the case.
I wonder if reader aversion to cheating has something to do with the fantasy of romance generally, though. You pick up a book and you want to fall in love with the characters, but can you if they do something you find morally objectionable? Or can you buy a HEA if one of the characters has a history of being unfaithful? I think a good writer can pull that off, can show you that the characters are complicated and makes mistakes but are still worthy and capable of love—that’s certainly true in the examples TJ cited.
Kate
People do many morally objectionable things in RL and yet others fall in love with and stay with them. In books, I think if there aren’t real conflicts, whether it’s cheating or something else that grabs me, I tend not to remember them. Most of the books that resonate with me and remain on my “keeper” shelf had memorable conflicts and flawed characters. But that’s just me. 🙁
That’s a great example Kate – someone stuck in an awful or unloving relationship would be justified in looking else where.
It is hard and uncomfortable at times to read about an unfaithful lover, especially if it is purposely hurtful. And sometimes we just want a fun escape. So I can understand not wanting to read about cheaters. Some days all I want is a fun read with a HEA.
Jake Riordan: he’s one of my favourite m/m characters, ever. But though he cheats, he also suffers, and mostly because he’s torturing himself. And that’s why – unlike some other Adrien fans – I am happy to forgive him.
On the other hand you have a character like Stanley in Victor J. Banis’s Deadly series. Who’s forever looking to see if the grass is greener elsewhere, but doesn’t (hasn’t done so far, at least) do anything about it. Quote:
A vision of young Armando, his trousers about his ankles,. bent over a casket, magnificently sculpted cheeks spread wide, flashed across Stanley’s mind. A lovely vision reallyWould that be an accident? What if, say, you saw him like that, and your kneews grew weak at the sight – which was, after all, entirely believable – and, say, you more ore less fell against him, and before you knew it, you’d slipped inside wihout a conscious intention of doing so, simply the circumstances of how you had fallen … and you couldn’t just leap back in horror without giving offense, could you, not when he was being so very courteous himself? Miss Manners would almost certainly forbid it.
From all I see, this series (and presumably also Stanley) is very popular. But if Stanley every tripped over the edge, that might a different story altogether. Miss Manners might not be able to fend off irate fans *g*
Liade
I love Stanley because he’s so human and open. He’s tempted, but hasn’t yet yielded (I don’t think) and he’s so funny when he dreams up his scenarios. Victor is such a wonderful writer that even if Stanley were to give it up I would still forgive him because there would be an excellent reason ……… Miss Manners notwithstanding. 🙂
Hi Liade,
Whew! I’m glad I’m not the only one who loves Jake despite all his faults. You’re absolutely right – he does suffer a lot; he wants Adrien, he wants a family with kids, he wants his playmates… And when he tries to walk the straight an narrow (so to speak), his soul dies a little bit. Life is about tough choices, and Jake learns that lesson the hard way.
I agree with Kate. I’m not hugely bothered by infidelity, but when a character cheats, or has cheated over and over again, it makes me doubt the HEA. A really good writer will make me believe a HEA, especially if there is real repentance on behalf of the cheater and acceptance of that by the person being cheated on.
Hey Jen,
It really does come down to the writing doesn’t it? As you say a really good can make you believe in a HEA. And if they’re really good, they can show us how an unfaithful lover deserves a second chance.
Great post TJ! 🙂
Hmmmm let me ponder the subject some more.
In real life, cheating bothers me a lot. I have trust issues, but I’m a firm believer of communication. If you’re open to it, you can talk about a hell of a lot. To me if both parties agree to be in a committed relationship and one cheats. it’s over, out, done with. Not to say that person is not worthy of love anymore, but the trust is gone and can it then really work?
On the other hand of you believe in open relationships, it’s not really cheating as long as you’re open about it.
Now romances on the other hand. People read for many many reasons, but I think (in part, not as a whole) people read romances to have an ideal they can’t have in real life. Or to read about relationships where there is a HEA or to read about relationships that are different (or, of course, for the porn :P)
If you suddenly introduce cheating, then some people are going to be turned off. I guess to me it depends on how it is part of the story. Sometimes a subject, like cheating, is introduced to give another facet of the story or it serves a deeper meaning. Sometimes it is just for the heck of it.
Oh well, I’m not saying anything new 😉 But it’s my 5 cents. It is an interesting topic, but I guess you have to view it as a literary topic and not mix the two up.
Thank you Larissa. Yeah, I know that trust thing is tough after someone betrays you. As I said in my post, I would try to forgive my partner in RL for cheating, but honestly I know it would be really hard to get over.
Yes, I agree that in romance stories, we usually want a HEA and cheating doesn’t seem to fit that goal. But I do think that sometimes a conflict such as cheating in the story can lead to a deeper understanding of the characters and even deepen their connection. Again, that absolutely would not be the case if the cheating was intended to hurt someone.
LOL this did pique my interest in the Adrien English stories. Maybe I should have a crack at them again!
Oh Larissa – absolutely do try Josh Lanyon’s AE series. I read the original printing over 10 years ago and still go back and reread them!
They are mysteries, so if you don’t like mysteries, be warned, but there is a lot of other stuff going on, including a fun push/pull with cop Jake.
Also most importantly, Josh writes beautifully and you really do fall in love with Adrien – he is a smart aleck and flawed and funny. I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. And If you haven’t read Josh’s other books, they are all really good. I can’t recommend him highly enough.
A fun topic, thank you for participating TJ! Personally cheating can be a deal breaker for me in m/f romance.
But on this subject, my thoughts are similar to Ken, “…In RL so many guys have open relationships. …” So if I’m going to be open to full enjoyment of the genre, I need to accept that open relationships are often acceptable. It’s unfortunate if editors are requiring monogamy as a requirement for consideration of publication, because it’s probably not an accurate reflection of the community.
As a reader, I prefer editors allow their writers freedom to write the best story possible, not to inhibit their creativity with unnecessary artificial boundaries. If the author makes cheating (or an open relationship) work for an excellent storyline…I would read it. I much prefer an excellent book with possibly non-traditional elements, than just another predictable, average. cookie-cutter, ho-hum book that fits within a publishers comfort zone.
Otherwise, disallowing legitimate aspects of gay culture IMO is just dressing up hetro storylines. One of my pet peeves is historical novels with modern thought processes…ie. contemporary romance in historical costume (a major reason I rarely read historical any more). If we apply this to m/m romance…we get m/f romance in m/m costume (another form of cross dressing? lol).
Hi Denni,
You have a great attitude -being open to the full range of relationships in m/m stories. I do hope that most publishers are not trying to inhibit a writer’s creativity by limiting what they can write about.
Regarding historicals, I’ve read many excellent stories in that genre. Have you tried any Alex Beechcroft? She is a really wonderful historical writer. And also the Raised by Wolves series by WA Hoffman are absolutely addictive.
Hey TJ! This was a really great post. I found it fascinating to witness your own recognition that you’d already looked past the ‘act’ you despised, even if you had to put up a mental block in order to do it at the time. LOL!
It’s funny since I always thought I’d be dealing with some of this cheating fall-out after Self Preservation was released. I’m shocked that to this day, no one has ever brought it up. I suppose an individual’s definition of cheating would determine whether or not they felt Davis had done anything wrong in that book. And while I personally never thought of it that way, I definitely feared readers would. That was something my editor for that book strongly felt, needed to be added to the storyline. And I fought her at first, not because I didn’t love what it did for the story…which was amazing in my opinion…but because I was afraid I’d have people hunting me down with torches and pitchforks.
It amazes me to this day that anything as common place at cheating would be considered a taboo. I would think anyone who’s ever been cheated on could relate with the characters on a more personal level. I know I’d be sitting there reading and thinking, “Oh hell, bitch…not you too!”
For me Romance novels should be about love. Plain and simple. I want my LOVE and I’m willing to take it any way in which it decides to come to me. Talk about love conquering all? If a couple can get past that type of betrayal and come out the other side stronger and more committed than they were before, how is that a bad thing?
Much like you, TJ I’ve been thinking about this topic off and on since that previous post. It’s continued to irk me a little, and I think what bothers me most is simply having someone say, Romance has to be this way or that way — the, my way or the highway mentality. I’ve been told I was wrong for simply being who I am since before I truly had an understanding of what that meant. My way is wrong. That I can’t love men because it’s bad, intolerable…if that’s the way I CHOSE to be, than they wanted nothing to do with me.
Maybe having that hanging over my head for so long has simply left me with intolerance for any form of intolerance…even the cheating kind.
With that in mind, I wish much love to all.
Ethan
Hey Ethan,
Thank you so much. This is high praise indeed coming from you. It was a little disturbing to realize that as much as I hated to admit it, I was being a tad hypocritical about cheaters. Now this doesn’t mean that I’m looking for some cheatin’ ho to date, but I am realizing that I’m far more tolerant and forgiving that I thought.
Oh God Ethan! There was cheating in Self Preservation too! It’s official, I’m losing my mind! Luckily I don’t need it every day. I suppose I need to reread that one now too…
And I’m with you 100%. I want LOVE in my romance novels, however it comes. Please just make it realistic and believable. I think there is room enough for us all to have whatever floats our boats.
I do find that I am as you say, intolerant of intolerance. It must be from all of the intolerance we’ve had to endure as gay men. I say live and let live.
Hey TJ
As I said, I was afraid what happened between Alex and Davis the night before the wedding might be misconstrued as cheating, but it really wasn’t technically speaking. So you’re not crazy at all.
I once again, enjoyed the post and all the commentary that followed. : )
Whew! Thanks Ethan. I thought there was some other scene that my wonky middle aged mind erased for me. I didn’t have any issues with SP. It was a really great book.
I second Wave’s comment – you are the coolest. As Kermit says, “it’s not easy being green”. For me, some days, it’s not easy being gay in this world, but I wouldn’t change, and be straight, to have an easier life. Then I wouldn’t be me.
Ethan
As usual, so eloquent. I could just imagine you rebelling against intolerance, period, which is what makes your comments resonate even more. Also, why I think you’re so cool. 🙂
LOL! Thanks Wave. I always wanted to be cool. ; ) And that period of my life wasn’t all that pretty, though it likely would have been amusing to watch.
I went through my whole second puberty (the gay one) in my early twenties and tried on many different personalities before realizing the authentic one that I’d been born was just fine. It takes a long time for anyone to become comfortable in their own skin, gay or straight and anything in between. I may not ever fully get there myself, but I’m a hell of a lot closer now.
Live and learn, right? : )
Ethan
As I told you once in an email, I can’t get over the fact that you’re not black. You would have been waaay more cool then. 🙂 You have the FU attitude just right.
Great post, TJ! Very interesting how your position on cheating in fiction changed as you thought about fiction you’ve read and loved. A talented author can make us read about subjects we never thought we’d read about (I’ve had this experience reading about both BDSM and vampires — sometimes even in the same piece of fiction, ha, ha!). I don’t mind cheating in fiction. A lot of interesting tension and plot lines can come out of it. 🙂
Thank you Val. I am a work in progress, and have to occasionally take a step back and reevaluate myself. It always amazes me that a talented writer can make me interested in things that I would have never thought about before.
What I don’t like is being there for the actual cheating, having to read through the actions and thoughts of the cheater as he cheats. It makes me feel icky and I just don’t like it. I don’t want to cheat too. I would’ve liked Bareback much less if I’d had to read about Tor and whatshisname from Tor’s point of view as it happened. Eew! That’s what I don’t like about cheating in ANY romance.
Hi Missy,
That’s completely understandable. Reading about the actual cheating would be really icky. I would have to skim past it if it ever came up.
I wonder if it’s even possible to write that scene and not make us all squirm. There’s a real challenge! Perhaps if it was as Kate McMurray said above, a case of someone trapped in a bad relationship. Then we’d probably be rooting for some cheating.
Okay, in that case I can agree with you and Kate. I seem to recall reading that scenario at least once and it didn’t turn me off enough to be included in the ick-factor here. So, you’re right. It’s definitely when it’s between the protags and written out that it bothers me.
I agree with Missy’s comment about reading about the cheating from the cheater’s point of view. This would cause me to dwell on the cheating in which it would be very difficut for me to forgive the cheater. Bareback is a wonderful story in which the cheating still bothers me to think about. This is because, as TJ pointed out, Chris Owen can most definitely write. To the point I felt the pain. I believe how someone feels about cheating in a romance candepend on how well the writer draws the reader into the story. I can read about cheating and how it is resolved in a relationship with appreciation, but I have to draw myself back a little from the story because personally, I don’t wanna feel the pain.
Hi Linda,
Thanks for your comments. I know what you mean about it being painful to read about uncomfortable situations such as cheating. I think I mentioned somewhere above that I recently read a really great book that had one scene that I literally cringed through, but it was so worth going through it. I learned a lot about the characters and also to some extent myself. I even reread the book a second time. I must be a sadist.
There are some books like that one, that I’ve read that although I remember the good points, it’s the struggles that the characters went through that stuck with me. And although those were initially hard to read, the author made me think about what the character had to deal with to get his HEA.
Wow, TJ, great post and responses! Yall are such a fun and spirited group here, I love it.
Since we’re seemingly comparing and contrasting Jake Riordan and Tor, I do have a couple of (I think) interesting thoughts.
First, Jake’s extra-Adrien affairs didn’t really bother me as a reader. Okay, they did a little, but I realized that was mostly some psychological game he was playing with himself acted out physically–and it made for phenomenal character growth. That said, several times I really wanted Adrien to tell Jake no, to not give in to Jake’s seduction. I also know that, had I been in Adrien’s position, I wouldn’t have been able to handle Jake’s extra-Adrien activities. Love or not, I couldn’t have survived the voices in my head for 11 months. (I think that was the time they were together before Jake left for Kate, wasn’t it?)
Second, regarding Tor, two things combined to tore (ha!) me up about that situation. First, Jake saw Tor with Travis on what I sort of considered their anniversary. Remember, it was the night of the 4th after-harvest party–a party Tor knew was difficult for Jake to tolerate every year. The narration had even taken pains to tell us how they had stopped “playing” with others during that time. For Tor to have that much disrespect for Jake to cheat on him that night of all nights was extremely painful to read. Second, when Tor tells how long he’d been seeing Travis and what they’d done with each other, it was absolutely another betrayal–perhaps even worse than seeing them together. Especially considering where his, ahem, commitment ring was located! Bastard.
So, yeah, I was thrilled with the torment that Tor seemed to go through. I’m still not sure Jake didn’t forgive him too soon. 😉 (What can I say? I can be a vindictive bastard at times.)
Do I like reading about cheating? Not necessarily, but I do realize (and remember) that it does happen sometimes. As Missy said, so long as I don’t have to go along for the ride with the cheater, it’s okay.
Budajsguy
As usual, you put everything in perspective. I had forgotten WHEN Tor did his cheating. I did remember how LONG it had been going on though, and I was really pissed at him for being so deceitful. However, you may recall that they were having problems of a different kind just prior to the cheating.
I sent you an email on another matter so please check your inbox. No, I’m not going to ask you to pay rent. 🙂 YET!!!
Ooh! If you’re not asking me to pay rent, are you kicking me out? Please say no! I’ll go check it now. *g*
Hi Budajsguy,
Thank you. These are some good points that you raise. Jake Riordan did seem to be playing a game with himself, and unfortunately Adrien to some extent, to deal with his feelings. I seem to remember him telling Adrien at one point that he had stopped going to the club once they were together, but the girlfriend and eventual wife was another story. I don’t think Jake saw Kate as cheating since she’s a woman. So it did seem that Jake was thinking of Adrien’s feelings to some extent.
Although I honestly don’t remember the details of Tor’s cheating (I do need to reread this), it seems that the motivation was more selfish and hurtful, especially with, as you say, the timing of Tor’s affair and that they had stopped playing with others.
Cheating is one of those topics that totally depends on the situation for me. As others have said, if it done with the intent to harm, that’s bad. If it’s done in a committed, “only us” type of relationship, that’s also bad. In the fiction I read, I don’t have a problem reading about one of the characters cheating and the couple dealing with that, as long as I don’t have to read the cheating sex scene and it isn’t a chronic thing. One book where cheating was an important plot point and actually worked for me (getting through it) was Cameron Dane’s ReneCade. I liked the book, in the end, but the situation involved was understandable and, in the end, forgivable. It was a lot like Ross and Rachel from friends (a situation, by the way, which I think Rachel blew totally out of the water…a drunken mistake can be eventually forgiven, but she kind of wrote him off despite their long-term relationship and supposed love).
If it’s an open relationship, then it’s all good; there’s an implicit understanding there that sex with other people could possibly happen at some point. I think another factor to consider would be how it happened. If it’s a one-time deal with some random guy from a bar, less of a problem. Chronic thing with the cheated-on character’s best friend/brother/sister/etc., the hurt factor increases.
In my personal life, I think cheating is one of the most damaging things that can happen in a relationship; if the relationship is already rocky, then it’s most likely over, since the effort required to get over the cheating would probably not be worth it. A single infraction would be painful and hard to deal with, but with a lot of discussion can be resolved. Multiple infractions…not so much. This is all assuming, of course, that commitments have been made.
Hey Brett,
Very true what you say. A lot of factors go into the seriousness of the cheating; i.e. the intent of the cheater, the commitment of the partners, whether the relationship is open, whether the cheater had good motivation to cheat and also how he treated his wronged partner’s feelings.
Funny you mention Friends. I totally agree that Rachel seemed to be overreacting, but I think that had more to do with her own insecurities than Ross’s infidelity. I think she assumed that Ross would wait forever, since he had already waited so many years (remember he’d been in love with her since his teens).
But they were on a break! 😉 So was it cheating or not? For me, I guess it all depends on how full and final I consider the break to be–and how long it has lasted. I don’t remember the details from Friends–I’d quit watching by then.
What would be much harder for me to overcome in my real life is emotional cheating. If my guy started to develop lovey/lusty feelings for someone else, I think that would be a deeper betrayal of our monogamous bond than if he’d just shagged some random stranger. Why? Because it implies both a turn from me/us and some sort of conscious intention toward the outside other. After all, one does not generally develop an emotional attachment without investing something of oneself in the other, yes?
What if the person the book-bound hero cheats with is of the opposite sex from his relationship partner? Is that better? Worse?
Wave, I remember Jake & Tor were having problems before Tor stepped out, but is that really the way to solve the issue? In that case, too, when he explained to Jake the how and why of his first time with Travis, didn’t it sound to you like it was more of an “FU” to Jake (especially when he, Tor, went back for seconds) than just getting his rocks off? Clearly this book meant nothing to me and I’ve not given it another thought! *blushes* And that damn ring! I cannot get over it. How? How could you not at that moment go, “Whoa! What the hell am I doing?”
Budajsguy
Since I hate women in sexual situations with the guys in my M/M books I would want to throw the book out the window if a woman were involved. No on-page sex with women in my books. If I want to read about women I would read het. 🙁
But getting back to your question, I would much prefer if the hero cheated with another guy because there would be no baby (another trope in books with women) look at what happened when Jake cheated on Adrien and screwed around with Kate in the AE series).
I get what you mean about emotional cheating – much worse to get over than just sex.
Re Tor and Jake – I didn’t mean that Tor was justified when he cheated. On the contrary, I felt like kicking him in the balls, but what I meant was, their relationship seemed to be falling apart at the time and he decided to give it the final kick.
We should really invite Chris to talk about her characters because she does seem to love cheaters. 🙂 She has another book that I believe I mentioned to TJ, it’s called Sex, Lies and Celluloid with the worst cheater EVER but I loved his character. Go figure. I think I read this one almost 3 years ago. I seem to read a lot of stories with cheaters – maybe there’s a kink in my reading personality. 🙂
You mentioned that book to me once, too. I have it on my list, but it somehow hasn’t made it through yet. Maybe I’ll tackle it once I’ve finished with the nonsense I’m struggling through now.
I didn’t think you were justifying Tor’s choice, I was just venting a little more about his idiocy. lol I would love to hear what Chris has to say about her guys.
I was thinking about Cut and Run when I mentioned the sex with women thing. Granted Ty and Zane weren’t exactly together-in-a-relationship when the off-page hetero hookups occurred, but what if they had been? What if that happens if (when?) book 3 ever materializes? Just my quirky mind at work again. 🙂
Hey Budajsguy,
Yes Rachel and Ross were on a break, but I think Ross should have realized that it was, in Rachel’s mind, temporary and they would get back together.
I am with you on the emotional cheating. That would be far worse, even if there was no sex. I think it’s the sharing of some part of your heart and soul that should be reserved for you partner.
Tough question as to whether cheating with a man or woman would be worse. Man, you’re making me think! I would say that for me, they are equally bad for different reasons. If it was a man, there’s that feeling that I was not enough for him. But then if it’s a woman, no matter what I would have done, I couldn’t compete. Also I would wonder was he just experimenting with guys, but is really straight. What a mess!
Budajsguy
Ty and Zane are both bi so I wasn’t surprised about the off page sex with women. Also, as you said they weren’t in a relationship at the time – they were just working up to it. 🙂 I don’t believe they had sex with each other (other than hand jobs) – not even oral sex until Cut and Run.
I’ve been told by Madeleine that the schedule for Fish &Chips is somewhere around November this year.
I just found I question I asked Chris Owen about Bareback when I interviewed her almost 2 years ago. I think her answer about the cheating was quite revealing.
>>”Bareback is a huge fan favourite as you know. When I reviewed it about 2 months ago on the blog, so much emotion and heated discussions were generated about a book that was published in 2003 that I wanted to interview you to ask about one of the elements that troubles fans the most, even today. I realize that you had to find enough conflict to make the story interesting and let’s face it, cheating is realistic in both het and gay relationships. However, the questions are varied and many and here are a couple from one fan” << >>”In my all time favorite of her books, Bareback, Tor cheats on Jake. Why? Was it something planned all along or did their relationship somehow go down that path, taking the author by “surprise”? …. I must say I was almost as devastated as Jake was, but when I read it again for the second (and third, fourth…) time I could see how they ended up there. Still wasn’t happy, but I could see it ” << "So Chris, what is your response to this fan who is obviously still upset? " >>”I had nothing to do with it. *laugh* Okay, here’s the deal. I didn’t see it coming. I wrote along and they were happy and then… they weren’t. When they broke up I was a mess; I cried in my tub and felt heartbroken. I was also terrified that I wouldn’t be able to fix it. I couldn’t write for a while when I was trying to sort it out and find a realistic, believable way for them to get back together. It was by far the hardest thing I’d written up to then. It was like a physical blow.” <<