The majority of M/M authors write for a North American market and don’t even think (much) about their fans in other countries, unless they themselves live outside the US and Canada. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? This site has visitors from all over the world – 156 countries so far – so I assume that the reading audience for M/M books is pretty diverse. Yet those of us who live here tend to think of North America as our entire universe. The language differences that readers in other countries have to overcome to be able to read one book written in English must at times seem insurmountable to them, especially when it’s peppered with idioms, slang and jargon that only someone living in these parts would know. However, most publishers demand language and spelling uniformity in their books – American spelling – whether their writers are Australian, Canadian, British, German, Russian etc. It also doesn’t seem to matter to the majority of publishers if a book is set in the past- 1930s Britain, for example – the spelling has to be American, even for example, using the word “ass” instead of “arse,” which has a very different meaning in Britain and is a very important body part in M/M. 🙂 This boggles my mind!
I had an email recently from Feliz, a German blogger who is a regular on this site, and she commented on some of the cultural differences between European and North American readers which related to language and perceptions. I was intrigued about some of her observations because I live in a bilingual country (Canada) where there are two major cultural influences – English and French – and the differences are vast, but they make Canada a unique and beautiful place to live and, I hope, make Canadians more understanding about diversity. Because I was so impressed by Feliz’s comments I asked her to write something that could be posted on the site. This is what she wrote:
When I asked a Thai friend of mine what she thought was ‘typically German’, she said: “Typically German is to speak one’s mind.” I recalled her saying this when
Wave suggested that I write this post.
Languages reflect on the people who speak them, and vice versa. Everybody who comes here to Wave’s site speaks English; it’s a global language, after all. Yet, for someone like me who hasn’t cut her teeth on English it’s sometimes hard to get something right in order to not sound offensive or just plain stupid to a native English speaker. Even if I say or write something “by the book”, I sometimes seem to strike a false note. For example, it’s correct English and would sound perfectly polite in German if I said, “No, you’ve got this wrong.” I could speak like this to my German boss and he wouldn’t mind. But to obtain the same level of politeness when speaking to an American I’d have to say something like, “I’m afraid that’s not quite right.”
These are fine nuances, of course, but I think they matter. Unfortunately, in everyday life you become aware of this only when you get confronted with it, and then, more often than not, it’s too late – and the business goes to hell in a handbasket ;-).
The latter made me quite sensitive to the small but mighty differences…
Much of what we like or dislike, not only in books, depends on where we come from. Tastes differ, but this only goes so far. Where individual preferences end, more universal principles come into play, some of them so deeply ingrained in us by upbringing, education and the life that we lead we aren’t even consciously aware of them most of the time. We only notice them when we leave our own home turf and get in touch with a foreign culture, either by traveling abroad or by interacting with someone from another background. Or, in my case, reading books in a language I didn’t grow up speaking.
German supermarket
When I first discovered the world of m/m romance it was so new and exciting for me, I couldn’t read fast enough. I devoured books regardless of the subject, as long as there were two guys getting together in them. I couldn’t find anything comparable on the German book market. Not this vast variety of themes, settings, characters, subgenres and sub-subgenres. It was like going shopping in a German General Store and then coming to an American mall.
Yet, after I had stopped being overwhelmed by the sheer amount of choices, I started to read with my eyes open, so to speak. There were things that tended to show up again and again, regardless of author or theme, and I couldn’t help but wonder about them. Read with a stranger’s eye, those things struck me as “very American”.
On the surface, the cultural differences between Europe (or in my case, Germany) and America don’t seem that substantial. Democracy, a (mostly) functional legal system, decent availability of food, education and healthcare, McDonald’s, Hollywood, VW Beetles, mobile phones, TV and indoor plumbing. All the same.
US supermarket
Except where it’s not.
There’s the notorious warm washcloth, for example. When I met it for the first time in an m/m romance, I stopped reading and went like “Huh, what?” (and that was still in my voracious phase, mind you). Of course, I can only speak from my personal experience, but I’ve never come across a man who jumped out of my bed after the deed was done, ran to the bathroom and came back to either clean up his or my mess with a washcloth, warm or otherwise. 🙂
Yet, I think the “average American” is obsessed with cleanliness. Quite a while ago, my family hosted an American exchange student who insisted on taking a shower at least twice a day and made my mother buy her a razor, because “in the United States, we shave.” She was thirteen, same as me, and for the life of me I couldn’t fathom where she wanted to shave, back then.
I’ve come to loathe the warm washcloth. Seriously. Either admit that sex between whoever can be messy (and hooray for that, for where’s the fun when it’s not?) Or let them deal with it otherwise. Much has been said on this blog about that very topic, so I’ll stop here. Yes, sex might leave a wet spot, particularly when at least one man is involved. And yes, sometimes you just get to sleep in it. Deal!
Or the obsession with condoms (and lube), but the latter is slightly different).
Yes, there are such things out there like AIDS and STD’s, and it’s not funny if you have to deal with them. Yes, any sensible adult should make sure the stranger he (or she) is about to do the nasty with can’t leave behind a possibly life-threatening keepsake. Thus, the use of a condom should be a given, at least in contemporary novels, between strangers, after one partner has been cheating, when someone is having trust issues and so on. But why have them appear in every single sex scene? ‘Givens’ should go without saying, at least after a while. There are even stories where the use of condoms borders on ridiculous, like fantasies (the weirdness of condoms in those is only topped by jars of superglide extra-wet fairy lube appearing out of thin air) 🙂 or sometimes historicals (I’m aware condoms have been around since Casanova’s time, but the knowledge about STD’s has not, so what the fuck?) There is again something “very American” about this to me. Something to do with making sure not even the biggest idiot ever can come to harm by something you produce.
In the U.SA citizens seem to be able to (successfully) sue companies for the weirdest things, like burning your thighs with too-hot coffee because you were dumb enough to place your coffee mug between them while driving out of the McWhatever’s parking lot. Or killing your cat by putting it into the microwave oven or the laundry dryer. The first time I came across the disclaimer on the front page of a BDSM story which said, don’t try this without an experienced partner, I couldn’t believe this was serious, but it was.
There are other things, of course, which appear exotic to me. For example, the American school system. The entire topic of high school stories eludes me. In Germany, we don’t spend that much time at school, obviously. School sports teams, discussion clubs, homecoming queen and king, cheerleaders, jocks and nerds – okay, skip this, we have those, too, but they don’t spend that much time trapped together on a highschool campus. There isn’t this obligation to be part of the football team to be “in.” There is no football team. Most German schools don’t even have a cafeteria; school ends mostly at noon or early afternoon, and you go home afterwards. Sports, music, pastime is done mostly in clubs (“Vereine”) which have nothing to do with your school. Not many Germans identify with and by the school they attend or went to like Americans do, and which university you go to mostly depends on your grades and your personal liking. There nothing like your “elite universities” over here either, or at least there wasn’t such a thing in my time, and universities are free. Most professions are learned not in college, but through apprenticeships.
So the problems of a high school jock and a nerd falling for each other aren’t of particular interest to me, since I barely can relate to them. Yet, many readers seem to love those stories, since there are so many of those out there.
From what I’ve come to understand, a lot of m/m romance as it is today is a “very American” thing. It appears to me that regardless of the author’s origin or the setting of the story, many books were written for the mainstream taste, which to my German palate is smoothed, sweetened, evened out and unified like American cheese. 🙂 Nothing anyone might have to chew on, behold! Nothing that might taste like the real deal, or even – yuck!- be a little smelly. Not much to disagree about. It’s interchangeable and completely forgettable after having been consumed.
Sometimes “mainstream” m/m romance seems to me like some kind of compromise between the universal human urge to peep at other people’s dirty secrets and the equally human urge to keep things neat and shiny on the surface. It even appears that some authors are uncomfortable to the point of shame with the fact they are writing m/m, but do it because it pays big these days, similar to readers who want to be titillated by picturing two men having sex with each other but don’t want to be bothered by the smell of sweat, semen and shit that comes with it. Hence the glossing-over.
This is something else that seems very American to me, but I might be prejudiced here. In my understanding, many Americans are quite ambivalent when it comes to the matter of sexuality in general. There are the wild Spring Break parties, but most American women wouldn’t dream of going to a public beach topless, and expect to be married or at least having dated “properly” twice or thrice before having sex. There’s a contest between male American teenagers re who is going to lose his cherry first, but the girls who let themselves be charmed into helping those boys do it get “a reputation” and are considered women a decent man can’t bring home to meet his parents. There are a few states where gay people can marry (and American “gay marriage” is a much more substantial thing than German “civil union”), but there’s still the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy in the military. And so on…..
I am aware there isn’t the m/m romance, nor the m/m romance reader. I began to look for those things, with a mix of annoyance and amusement, and I tried to find books where those things didn’t happen, silently cheering on the authors for breaking something I’ve come to think of as “the generic off-the-mill mainstream pattern”. Luckily those are out there, and their number is growing.
But is this really a matter of culture or rather a matter of personal taste? Do other non-Americans even notice the same things which bother me, or other cultural-related things, or nothing at all? Do Americans, for that matter, and does it bother them, too? What about other native English speakers?
Readers, what do you think? Have your say.
Hi Feliz, as a Dutchy I roll my eyes at some of those things you mention as well. The school system and its things and the food most importantly. What the hell are hash browns and biscuits?? The last one apparently not the cookies you dunk in your tea. And who eats pancakes, eggs and bacon for breakfast??
Our school system is roughly the same as yours. College and uni’s are not free but they are accessible for everyone, money does not really play a role. Only your school level matters.
Also the marriage thing, yesterday I checked my local newspaper (village 8,500 people) there was one gay marriage and 2 civil unions.
You don’t mention dialects and slang, that is something you don’t learn in school. It makes sometimes for hard reading.
Yes! What on earth are biscuits? You read about them being eaten with soup or stew.
As a Scot, I have no idea what they are.
Hi Ally,
look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscuits_and_gravy
I forgot to mention wikipedia, another great instrument which helped me to get the hang of American customs and habits!
🙂
Ah, thank you! I don’t think I’ll be sampling that particular meal however.
I use Wikipedia to work out the school system. I barely understand the English school system (Scotland has a different system from the rest of the UK), never mind the US system.
I forgot to mention the sports. Americans really seem to be sports obsessed, at least most of the men in m/m are.
The only important sport here is soccer and in winter time speed skating. The rest is …. well the rest.
Hi ingrid,
to me, it was gravy…what in all the world is that? For that matter, thank God for google. In the beginning, I used to read next to my computer with google open to look up words I stumbled upon, dealing with slang and dialect words the same way (I learned some delicious swear words that way) 😉
After a while, though, with the amount of books I read, this stopped being an issue.
The marriage thing: This is another cultural difference, this time between the Netherlands and Germany, I think. Germans who go into civil union with a same-sex partner still don’t have the same rights as married heterosexual couples e.g. regarding adoption, dependent’s pension, tax relief and so on. Every little step towards equality required court decisions. German law is quite mendacious that way. I think in the Netherlands, people are generally more tolerant towards homosexuality, as are the authorities.
Ingrid, re Sports:
I think this goes together with the being a part of the school football team. However, obsession with sports, particularly watching it, didn’t strike me as typical American. Have you ever been to Germany during soccer Bundesliga, let alone Weltmeisterschaft? No men out on the streets during the game….
I think watching sports is a MAN thing, plain and simple. so no easier way to make your character appear manly than to make him watch the game religiously.
Interesting post, Feliz.
As a Brit, I don’t find the cultural differences too great between Britain and the US. Yes there are a few language differences, most of which I can figure out for myself or Google if I can’t (although, I have to admit ‘biscuits and gravy’ sound horrid to my British sensibilities, given that a biscuit here is the equivalent to a US cookie). US TV has played a large part in the narrowing of the culture gap and so I can usually muddle along.
I think Brits share the same desire for cleanliness as they do in the US and the only reason I scratched my head over the ‘washcloth’ is because we call it a flannel over here :).
The only thing that does flummox me is the school system in the US. I can never work out how old a child is at which point in the schooling system. However, since most books centre on the ‘senior’ year when the character is 18, I can cope with that. As for the university or college system, the UK is, unfortunately, moving ever nearer to the US paid system of higher education. We have Cambridge & Oxford as our ‘elite’ universities and a whole hierarchy for the universities underneath, so I can relate to that side of things.
I can see why someone from a country which is entirely different to the US would find it all a little confusing, especially when you have a language barrier to overcome as well.
Hi Jenre,
don’t get me wrong, Germans DO shower…;-)
There are some things I wince at the thought of doing with an unwashed partner. Rimming, for example. Urks. But personal hygiene, like condoms, should be a given between civilized people. Some authors include it in their stories in a subtle way, like having the guys sharing a shower. This is fine with me. But I don’t need to watch their every washing and cleaning. On the other hand, in certain circumstances, the description of a washing or cleaning routine throws me out of the story. Imagine two guys on a jungle expedition or in the desert, caught in the throes of passion, and one of them takes the time to meticulously clean his partner’s genitals with the last of the water from their canteen in order to give him a blowjob that won’t make the reader cringe at the thought….
you know what I mean, don’t you?
Oops, didn’t mean to imply that you weren’t clean :).
I agree, sometimes there are points when you like to know that someone is clean, but other times it’s not really necessary. The heroes in m/m books do seem to shower an awful lot – unless you’re reading one of Mark Alder’s books and then perhaps they need to shower a bit more, lol!
*wakes up* Did someone mention my name?
Oh, it was you, Jenre LOL
Yes, my characters do get down and dirty…but for me that’s all part of the fun. Being a man is about all sorts of icky things happening 🙂
And I agree. There is a big cultural difference between America and the rest of the world. My publisher, thankfully, NEVER corrects my Australianisms. In fact they encourage it 🙂 So for me ‘ass’ is ‘arse’ and men have foreskins 🙂 (Yes, the skin on the end of a penis isn’t a man, it’s the other bit that gets cut off in some cultures)
So great post…
And Jenre, you’re allowed to have a shower after you read my books. I’ll let you…*giggle*
*hugs*
Mark
Hi Feliz,
For me the weird thing is showers or rather waiting for the water to heat and running out of hot water. I wish someone would explain this to me. I suppose there are some sort of heating units that heat only certain amount of water at the time and once it runs out, you have to wait for more hot water… I can kind of understand this in a house but in an apartment building or in a hotel as well? I guess I’m just too used to the unlimited hot water 🙂
The language and culture aren’t really an issue for me. I spent a year as an exchange student in high school in Texas and then a semester at an American university so I have some sort of reference point there. There are also loads of American (and British) TV shows and films being shown in Finland (shows are subtitled rather than dubbed) which brings American culture closer (however distorted that image may be). And since I’m a translator I’m delighted if I come across a word or phrase I don’t recognise 🙂 In fact I sometimes think that we non-native speakers have it easy since we don’t necessary spot all the typos or editing errors native speakers do:-)
Ingrid and Feliz mentioned marriages and civil unions in Germanyand the Netherlands. This issue is being debated right now in Finland as the law for “gender neutral marriage” is under preparation in Finnish parliament. It may even become one of the main topics in the upcoming parliamentary elections since it is one of the few issues in which parties clearly disagree. We’ll see what happens.
And by the way biscuits (and cornbread), when done right, can be quite good fresh from the oven 🙂 Odd thing is I’ve never been able to really make them well here. American flour(s) must be somehow different.
Hi Kaija,
unlimited hot water? I envy you!
Hot water kettles run out, and unless you’ve got a continuous-flow water heater, that’s it. Sometimes it’s due to poor or old plumbing. Something I’m unfortunately all too familiar with…
In Germany, all American TV shows are dubbed. I wished this wasn’t the case. As a translator you’ve got to know how much is lost in translation. The main reason I started reading English in the first place, by the way.
We tend to have electric showers in the UK which heat up the water as you use it, so I was also scratching my head a little about the hot water running out in shower scenes :).
Most American homes have 50gal water heater (apartments — if they’re lucky — have a 10 or 20 gal heater all to themselves). Tankless heaters are slowly coming in…but not in any great numbers.
I consider a biscuit similar to a scone but savoury. Maybe with cheese or herbs mixed in. Very similar to me anyway. Biscuits are HUGE in the South and I think contain about a gazillion milligrams of sodium in each one. I’m not a huge fan of biscuits, although I do like scones and had a great blueberry scone from Starbucks in Philly. Okay, enough food. LOL
Being Canadian of course I fall into that generic North American audience. The school system makes sense, the foods, the obsession with sport although here it’s mostly hockey with a touch of Canadian Football (like American but with a few small rule changes) in the summer. Soccer/football? Most men or women could not even name a famous team.
What is different for us with the school thing is the strong emphasis on it. We don’t have proms and prom king and queens and captains of the football team, etc. Okay, there is a football team at my daughter’s school but the captain is only important to his team. No one else knows or cares. There are clubs at the school, art club, steel band, swing dance. They meet before or after school but again, it’s not a big deal. Some kids do, some don’t. They have a few school dances through the year, but it’s just something all the kids go to and dance. I think there is a prom/graduation dance for when they graduate high school but it’s very low-key. My friend in Alambama probably spent close to $600 total for her son to do prom and graduation this year. There were two dances, flowers, dinners, limosine rentals, parties, bus rentals. I can only imagine how much someone spends on a girl with hair appointments, manicures, $400 dresses, etc. It’s crazy. We just aren’t that into it. LOL
Also high school reunions. I don’t even know anyone who’s been to one. They tried to get one together for my highschool a few years ago but it didn’t pan out. I would not pay money to go to one. In fact last time I was in my hometown they had some kind of homecoming thing where the school was going to be open and people could back and see classmates. I went to the beach. LOL It’s just not a big deal where I’m from and as I said, I’ve never heard anyone talk about it here at work so I’m thinking generally in Canada it’s not that HUGE of a deal.
So those are really the only storylines that kind of make me shake my head and think “how odd”.
It’s great to hear from a “foreign” readers perspective. Things we just take for granted as “normal” seem odd to others and we forget that. Great post.
Thank you, Tam
school reunions are not really my kind of thing, either. I never went to one.
Wow. Apparently, graduating in the USA is very expensive. I didn’t know that. We had some kind of offical celebration with the teachers and parents and a party for the students, and that was it.
I’m gonna weigh in as an American. I think a lot of what you all are marveling at are things that I marvel at too!
First off, to answer your question about water heaters, Kaija, a lot of apartments have water heaters in each unit, and they tend to be very small. I remember the first time I lived in an apartment with one water heater for the entire complex and I developed a serious fetish for extraordinarily long showers! Tankless heaters are becoming more popular, but they’re still really expensive, so even most older homes don’t have them.
I have to admit to a love of high school stories! I think high school was elevated as the pinnacle of the American youth experience in the 50s where the high school jock and the head cheerleader were envisioned as the ideal of wholesomeness and potential for success. Unfortunately, those ideals still linger in our culture. So for me, I love reading stories that undermine or question those ideals.
However, I hate, hate, hate biscuits and gravy! There just isn’t enough flavor in either the biscuits or the gravy to make me feel like I’m not eating paste. Biscuits with jam or honey, on the other hand, are delicious. Kind of like eating a lighter, fluffier scone.
Most of the men I’ve slept with (with the exception of the one guy who was Romanian!) insist on cleaning up immediately after sex, regardless of whether there’s a condom involved. To be honest, I find that it sort of kills the mood. Don’t people ever just want to lay there and enjoy the afterglow?
A friend of mine’s parents apparently still use condoms even though they’ve been married close to forty years. Apparently they like the fact that it makes clean up easier. I guess that makes sense if you’re afraid of sex mess, but I still think it’s weird.
A good friend of mine who I’ve always thought of as the world’s biggest perv/dirty boy said to me just last night that he wouldn’t discuss bodily functions like peeing or pooping with people, even his fiance. But then, I have another good friend who farts in public all the time, but who will rarely discuss sex. Quite honestly, I just don’t get it!
Still don’t understand the English school system, though. Even wikipedia couldn’t help on that one!
Alaina,
kills the mood, huh? Couldn’t agree more 🙂
I think only someone who has experienced American highschool can truely understand highschool stories, although many may love those nevertheless. Thanks for stopping by.
I don’t understand the English school system, and I went through it! (Or at least, the system I went through was mostly the same except with the addition of Welsh, and that some subjects weren’t compulsory for us in Wales). Kids these days seem to start at 3, wheras when I was young it was 5…
Of course, it’s all complicated by the fact that it depends where in the country you are as to what system they use…
…and as for the cleaning up after sex? Most men I’ve known are far more likely to fall asleep…
Just an American putting her two cents worth in…
I’ve only been reading m/m for a relatively short time, but I have yet to come across a “warm washcloth” scene. That being said, the thought of me falling asleep with body fluids trickling out of either orifice is just…yuck. My man says the thought of falling asleep with body fluids/shit on his member is just…yuck. Obsessed with hygiene? Maybe by European standards, not by my American ones or my hubby’s Japanese ones. However, I agree there’s no need to belabor the point in a story–either incorporate it into the storyline in a new and creative way or just leave it to the reader’s imagination.
I DO get tired of the condom thing. I’ve read stories where the men are supposedly in a monogamous, long-term relationship–and they still wear condoms! *big eye roll* Realism sacrificed for political correctness. Unfortunately that’s American culture these days. Trial lawyers have tremendous power, and a frivolous lawsuit can put millions in their pockets. Who wants to get sued because some idiot copied a scene out of your book and got hurt?
As far as foods, school/university life/ sports/etc. all I can say is people write what they know. Even if they’re writing about werewolves/vampires/elves, their cultural biases will come through. That’s why, even though I live in England, I’ve never attempted to write a story set in England, with English main characters. To me, a biscuit is a piece of bread SORT OF like a scone, usually eaten with soups/stews or as a breakfast food and it will never be anything else. I still don’t understand English schools, even though my daughter goes to one. Football involves touchdowns and men in tight spandex. And so on.
Maybe, instead of grousing, non-Americans need to write their own stories, stories that are true to their culture. If the publisher won’t go for it, find another one that will, or self-publish. I love reading stories set outside the States but they are few and far between. Despite our reputation, we are (most of us, anyway) bright enough to follow a story that involves copious tea drinking, going to the pub with mates, and worrying about A-levels (whatever those are!). I’d also love to read a book set in the Continent, with non-American characters. I’ve only come across one so far, and I didn’t like it only because I don’t like BDSM themes.
Some of the reader comments seem outdated, too. Teenage girls haven’t worried about getting a “reputation” in decades–girls are often the aggressor now not the boys–and “dating” is SO 20th century. “Hook ups” are the norm now. (this according to my 15 yr old niece). Marriage rates are falling every year. (pewsocialtrends.org/pubs/750/new-economics-of-marriage) Yes we are a more religious/conservative/intolerant society for a whole host of reasons I won’t get into, but that’s changing too. “Don’t ask don’t tell” will most likely be overturned this fall. Conservative icons like Dick Cheney, Laura Bush, Cindy McCain, and Fox News’s Glen Beck support gay marriage, as do most Americans (rawstory.com/…/cnn-poll-majority-support-samesex-marriage-rights-time) (Sorry, old lady here, not tech savvy enough to figure out how to post a direct link to these sites)
So…quit yer bitchin’ and start writing (authors) or push publishers to stop Americanizing everything (authors and readers).
Hi Elizabeth,
that’s exactly what I meant to say. Personal hygiene should be a given, so why always harp on about it? Fortunately, this is changing in m/m romance lately.
I agree with you that people write what they know. Reading m/m contemporarys, I’ve come across those outdated points of views so often it kept me wondering. Thank you for the links, and also for adding a teenager’s voice to the mix (my niece is fifteen, too. She thinks me living with a partner unmarried is horribly outdated. Apparently, German youth is moving towards the more conservative while American youth is becoming more liberal)
If you like books set outside the US, may i recommend Harper Fox? Her Cornwall settings are just great. And there is a new book out by A.J.Llewellyn (an American author), “The wine-dark sea” which is set in Paris, France. His tongue-in-cheek portray of “the French” and the picture he gives of Paris are SO to the point, and the story in itself is worth reading.
Hi Elizabeth
I echo what Feliz said about Harper Fox. She is an incredibly gifted writer – two of her books Life after Joe and Driftwood are reviewed on the site. In case you didn’t see the reviews here are the links
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=23393
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=28108
The British school system is pretty straightforward:
Age 3-5 Nursery (or Foundation as they’ve recently started calling it)
Age 5-11 Primary school
Age 11-18 High school – although you can leave at 16
There’s none of these freshman, sophomore, junior, senior years which is what confuse me, or the different types of schools like junior and senior high. You start in Primary school at age 5-6 in year 1, change schools at year 7, and then work up to year 13 which is the final year at school – or leave at year 11 if you don’t want to stay on and do further qualifications.
Quite the same as here. Primary school at six, secondary school at ten. We’ve got three types of secondary school: Hauptschule which you leave at 15/16, Realschule at 17/18 and Gymnasium (year 12) which you leave at 18/19.
That’s the same here Jen, but it only goes to 12 years.
You have to be 6 to start Grade 1 and you can legally leave school here at age 16 if you wish which would be around year 10 or 11 depending on your birthday.
We don’t do the sophmore junior thing and to be honest, except for freshman and senior I tend to get the other two mixed. We go by grade. My daughter is going into Grade 10. Everyone then knows she’s got two more years to graduate and if you roughly graduate around age 18, then you can extrapolate her age.
As for Middle School/Jr. High and High school, each school district is different and even schools. In GENERAL here where I live Elementary is Grades 1 – 6 (and includes kindergarten for 4 and 5 year olds), Middle school is grades 7-8, then High School is Grades 9-12. Middle school for us was a bit of a transition time. The kids go from being in one classroom all day with the same teacher, to several different teachers (but still staying with the same group of students all day) to a typical high school where you have different teachers and differnt peers for each class.
However due to schools with too few students you might end up with some elementary schools only going to Grade 5, with middle schools then being 6-8 or some even combining with elementary middle school as all one. However the provincial curriculum pretty much demands that all kids go to “high school” in Grade 9, but before that the schools have all sorts of grade combinations. That probably makes it more confusing that if there were hard and fast rules.
I’m a Dutchy, living in the US. I stumble across certain things daily. The school thing I still don’t have down, even after years of living here. Though I’m slowly (oh, so slowly) starting to get it, thanks to my niece growing up 😉
The biscuits thing…or pancakes, eggs, and bacon for breakfast…took some getting used to. But then, so did bangers and mash when I stayed with a family in the UK.
The sports thing…I’ve lived in several countries over the years, some for short periods of time, others for years. One thing has always been the same though.
Men. Watch. Sports.
Period.
In the US, they start early. They’re fairly competitive here, and in some ways this is a good thing, in some it’s not. Either way, it is what it is, and it’s here to stay. No one will ever be able to convince me that the Dutch aren’t the same though. They’re generally soccer-mad, the only major difference is, they don’t have teams connected to schools. Where the Dutch go to clubs (and pay their way to do it), the Americans go to schools. It’s the way they’ve handled things, and no it’s not free. Parents still need to pay for certain things. But, really, that’s the only major difference.
And that doesn’t just go for sports. It’s for all extracurricular activities, really. In Europe, most things are privatized. Here in the US, it was largely public and through the school system, though now with budget cuts, things are becoming more privatized.
As far as schools go…I remember being in school. There were the popular kids, and the unpopular ones (the latter of which, I definitely belonged to). There was no real crossing those borders back then. Classes would start early, around 8am, and on some days last until around noon, but most days until anywhere between 2 and 4pm. We did have a cafeteria, but it wasn’t nearly as stocked as they are here. Mostly, it was a place students could sit down and have their meal, buy snacks, drinks, and what have you.
In Denmark, they had some warm foods as well. And classes there also lasted me through most of the day.
To me the wash cloth isn’t a big deal. It’s as much about cleanliness, as it is about a show of caring for the other person. It’s tenderness and consideration, not obsession. But no, it isn’t always done 😉 Sometimes, you are simply too tired, and too blissed out to give a damn. You can always shower later 😉
I’m sure there’s other things that have me tilt my head and go “Huh?”, but I can’t think of any right now. Mostly though, they don’t really bother me too much. I either get it out of context, look it up, or read over it and enjoy the rest of the story.
Karin,
that men like to watch sports can’t be cultural. Must be in their genes…;-)
Thank you for your comment
yes, I think it’s coded in somewhere lol
WOW Feliz, I just thought I would check in. I guess you didn’t know that your post would be this popular .
Obviously you don’t need any help. LOL. I hope you’re not at work. 🙂
Thanks Wave,
no I’m not at work today, fortunately, otherwise I’d be in serious trouble for typing away on my computer while I don’t get anything else done!
I’m surprised myself. Learning a lot of new things here, too.
…and having fun…. 🙂 🙂
Feliz & Wave,
Thanks for the recommendations! I’m always looking for new authors to try out. I’ve read A.J.Llewellyn before and liked him, so I’ll definitely put the Paris story on my “to buy” list!
I was reading through your post and I said: Exactly! at least half a dozen times. Some parts could have been written by me – so similar were our thoughts.
Living in a small European country, my experiences with American culture in literature are not limited to m/m fiction or even American fiction for that matter. There is only so much books that get translated from ALL around the world and some books I can read only translated in – English. Since the biggest publishing machinery is American, you can say I also get some books written by non-Americans through the American eyes. And while some cultural references are funny or confusing or dumbfounding, I must say I quite enjoy exploring the slang. I used to be an interpreter and I started using U.S. English mainly because my exposure to it was much more extent – through books, movies, music, etc. I can say that Urban Dictionary became my new online friend. XD And it’s very funny when I find the American idioms that are quite similar to ours.
But, I always appreciate the book which, while the setting is local, leaves the boundaries of culture and is able to reach to the people who aren’t familiar with it. I guess that is something that we should look for in any, not just m/m book.
Great post, Feliz.
Hi LadyM,
fortunately most books published in any language end up translated into German sometimes, so it isn’t too difficult to come by those over here. Although at times I prefer to read the original language, especially with books which were originally written in English. There are simply so many nuances, particularly when it comes to slang or sayings, which can’t be translated properly. Not many English sayings can be translated into German although we have many sayings which are worded differently, yet have the same meaning. Is this different with your language?
The same, of course, goes for slang. I remember a scene in “Cut and Run” by Urban and Roux. Ty has broken some fingers and complains to his boss that he can’t even flip him the bird now with his bandaged hand, and his boss says, “hold up the entire hand and call it a flock” I laughed so hard my stomach hurt. There’s NO WAY you could translate that into proper German without losing the bone-dry black humor and the multitude of meanings those few words, spoken between those particular two men transport.
I love it when that happens. English is a wonderful language, an instrument which can be played in so many different tunes, and when I come across someone who knows his or her way with that kind of music, I’m in heaven.
Urban Dictionary, LOL. I love this site, too.
Great post, Feliz! Between the post and the comments, it was really an eye-opener for me and often very funny to recognize North American customs through a German / English / Dutch / Scottish / et cetera viewpoint.
Though, I have to admit that Ingrid’s question here puzzled me: And who eats pancakes, eggs and bacon for breakfast?? What else would you eat? Ha, ha! I’m trying to think of an alternative. Cornflakes? Oatmeal? A protein bar? 😀
I love reading m/m fiction set outside of North America. I think most North Americans readers do. I’d like to urge anybody who has a familiarity with non-North American customs and a desire to write m/m fiction to jump in and publish something set in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, Australia, or Africa.
It’s an underrepresented niche, but I think we North American readers would buy these books like crazy. So, now is the time to take advantage of the potential. Go for it! Write something and take it to the main e-publishers out there. If you feel your English language skills aren’t perfect enough to write fiction, that’s okay. That’s what editors and translators are for. 🙂
Hi Val,
Breakfast: Try bread rolls with jam, for example. Or the most German alternative there is: Muesli. Ever heard about it? It’s lots of oatmeal flakes with a little bit of dried fruit and nuts, all goo-ified by soaking it in milk or yoghurt. Very, very healthy, and takes some people very, very long to get used to. (I haven’t yet, although I’ve been living in Germany for quite a while ;-))
Thank you for your remark on non-American settings. It’s really encouraging. I love to read m/m stories set in America, but there are some very good ones set elsewhere out there, too.
Muesli! Yes! Health food stuff at the health food store. It’s popular here with athletic-whole foods – hiking types of Americans. I’ve never tried it. I guess I’m a couch potato, ha, ha!
Thank you for your remark on non-American settings. It’s really encouraging.
You’re very welcome! And it’s very true. I think there is a huge unfulfilled demand out there for m/m fiction set in authentic locations outside of North America, and not many are qualified from a knowledge standpoint to write them. I know I’m not.
The knowledge is more important than the English language skills which can be helped by editors/translators. So now is the time for Germans and writers of other nationalities to write m/m set in their homelands. I would totally buy these books.
For example, Amber Allure just recently did a themed series set in Italy, That’s Amore. M/M fiction set outside North America has huge potential to sell!
>>I have to admit that Ingrid’s question here puzzled me: And who eats pancakes, eggs and bacon for breakfast?? What else would you eat?<<
As a Brit I always get caught out by this particular Americanism… to us, pancakes are something you have as a pudding (dessert), usually with sugar & lemon or jam. Bacon & eggs for breakfast is usually referred to as "a proper breakfast", but we would have a slice of bread (I have it plain, my husband butters his) to "mop up" (and when you're feeling cheeky/childlike, you wipe the plate so thoroughly with the bread that there's no sign eggs or bacon have ever been near it, and try to get out of doing the washing up 😉
I suppose American culture is so familiar and ubiquitous due American TV and movies being seen all around the world then the rest of us find it easier to understand a story set in that culture than in say Australia, or South Africa or France, or wherever. Everyone knows – or thinks they know – what America is like.
Details do escape us though. I had a long discussion with my American beta for a fanfic about breakfast, before I was finally convinced you eat the pancakes with the syrup on them actually with your bacon and eggs, like using the same fork and everything. That’s just weird. 😀
I’ve read a couple of m/m stories set in the UK lately, Alex Beecroft’s Shining in the Sun and Clare London’s Blinded by Our Eyes. I like to at least sometimes read ones set in my own culture. The details make me feel closer to the story and characters. Another sign maybe of a difference between American and UK culture is that Shining in the Sun has a warning for “A great deal of swearing.” Yet I barely noticed it! I’ve been trying to pay attention to the amount of naughty words used outside of the sex scenes in American set stories lately, to see if there really is a difference in the amount of swearing between Brits and Americans.
Hi Junkfoodmonkey,
I wouldn’t know about Brits and Americans, but this was something else that struck me as unusual when I first started to read English/ American stories. It is funny because I don’t think actual Germans swear less often or less viciously than actual Americans (or Brits, for that matter), but in stories by German writers swearing isn’t as common as in stories by English speaking writers. One of the facts that makes stories written in English sound more “real” to me, more alive.
I live in KY. and our children can start school as young as 3 years old but their birthdays have to be on or before Oct. 1st. here’s a list of ages and classes.
Pre-school 3 or 4
Kindergarten 5
1st grade 6
2nd grade 7
3rd grade 8
4th grade 9
5th grade 10
6th grade 11
7th grade 12
8th grade 13
9th grade or Freshman 14
10th grade or Sophomore 15
11th grade or Junior 16
12th grade or Senior 17 or 18
In each grade it depends on where your birthday falls on how old you will be. When I graduated most of my friends were 18 but I was only 17 because my birthday falls in September.
In Kentucky you have to be in school by the age of 6 and stay in school until your 16 then you can quit. My niece wanted to go to school so bad that my sister sent her to pre-school at 3 years old. She went to preschool 2 years because she could not go to kindergarten until she was 5.
Hi Sherry,
thank you for this detailed list. I’m sure it helps to get a lot of things clearer to those who still despair of understanding the American School System
I have to admit that the warm washcloth thing amuses me – most men I’ve known are more likely to wipe themselves off on an item of discarded clothing if they bother at all! And showers? I’ve never been a huge fan of them – I much prefer a bath, and I wonder if part of the reason is that many Brits still don’t have separate showers but instead have them over the bath with one of those awful curtains that sticks itself to you. Much nicer to soak in your own filth in a tub full of water!
Hygiene aside, most Americanisms I’ve absorbed over years of watching/reading American culture, so it’s easy enough to translate. I do love reading stories set all over the world, though, and have a particular affection for British set stories as they reflect my culture – and have much more amusing swearing ;D
I could never write something set in the States – England is what I know and England is what I’ll write. I’m pleased to know that there are Americans out there who will be happy to read things set on our little island – so long as we change our spelling. There’s only one word I refuse to Americanise – arse. Ass just sounds totally wrong from an English character – the pronounciation is out for a start, and like Wave mentions in the intro, an arse is more than just the buttocks!
Josephine,
I must admit I was unable to figure out the arse/ass thing Wave mentioned in her intro. I know “ass” can also refer to a donkey, but how is an “arse” different from the body part you’re supposed to sit on?
The British swearing being more colorful I can relate to, definitely.
I had to go and check this, because I was sure that originally “arse” referred to the rectum rather than the buttocks. However, I can’t seem to find a slang dictionary to back me up on that one, so maybe I was mistaken…
Arse is a more versatile word and seems to have more variants. I found this little post on Urban Dictionary which contrasts arse and ass in UK usage:
Arse is more versatile than ass, being the root for such words as ‘arsey’, ‘arseing’ and ‘arsed’.
Arsey: To be rude or unco-operative.
Arseing: As in ‘Arseing around’, to fool around or be silly.
Arsed: To take the trouble to do something, as in “I can’t be arsed to do that”
Examples:
“Get off your fat arse you lazy ass”
“Stop arseing around”
“If you weren’t such a stubborn ass you would have got some cream for your sore arse”
“You just shot that ass in the arse!”
“I say arse because I speak British English, not because I’m frightened of swearing, you silly ass!”
“You lazy ass, you just can’t be arsed, can you?”, “Don’t you get arsey with me!”, “Well, stop arseing around, then!”
LOL
that’s enlightening. Something new every day. Thanks a lot, Josephine!
Thank you Josephine. I never knew there were so many uses for the word “arse” or so many derivatives. I’ll have to remember these uses. 🙂
I think our swear words must have been rationed during the war or something so we had to lean how to get the maximum value from them. 😉
Remind me to go through some of the many, many ways to use “bugger” sometime.
Hahahah! Great post Feliz! I can definitely identify with your post! 🙂 Some things I noticed too, but others I didn’t! Loved reading it!
Ingrid, I do the pancakes for breakfast too sometimes! 🙂
Thanks, Larissa.
Pancakes for Breakfast? We do them for a main course, with minced meat stuffing and green salad. It’s my man’s favorite, actually.
I do that too! Very yummie! But as breakfast too! 😀 Have you never eaten cake for breakfast?
I am sorry to bring some non romantic reality to an otherwise pleasant and interesting dialogue but as long as I keep seeing comments like the one below on the blogs and facebook’s of young men in their 20s, I think that even though it doesn’t has to be fetishized or over emphasized in every sex scene in a book – it would be unconscionable in a contemporary mm fiction not to use a condom in most circumstances.
“I have something to say. I spent the last few months trying to find the right time to tell you this but it turns out that there is no right time…The truth usually comes out eventually so I might as well just tell you now. I tested positive in May. I have no one to blame but myself. I have HIV and it kind of sucks.”
Anyone out there old enough to remember when it was a guaranteed death sentence and not something that ‘kind of sucks’ ???? Sure there are drug cocktails out there that can keep one alive for a long time but it still a horrible disease to deal with and lets not forget all the STDs out there too.
Sad Voice,
you are absolutely, perfectly right. In real life, condoms are vital, in the truest sense of the word. Being HIV positive, or having to deal with a STD like syphilis is not funny, not in the slightest, even regarding the options modern medicine offers in ways of treatment.
Since I’ve been dealing with those professionally for almost twenty years now, I’m very aware of it.
Comments like the one you mentioned only emphasize the fact that everybody should keep this in mind.
Here on this blog, though, we are lucky enough to be able to discuss fiction, which allows for a more dissociated point of view, even if it comes to the harsh facts of reality.
Thank you, nevertheless, for reminding us.
Hi Sad Voice
I would like to reinforce what Feliz said. Writers are not supposed to be teaching anyone about sex, safe or otherwise. This is a fictionalized world and everything in it is supposed to be a fantasy. I would definitely not look to a fiction writer to teach readers, young or old, about how to practice safe sex. That is the job of parents, schools, medical practitioners etc.
We all have a responsibility for our own bodies. HIV a terrible disease to face and the person who posted on Facebook has my deepest sympathy and I hope that he or she will be able to get the best medical care possible. However, it is not the responsibilty of any author to teach safe sex. I had a friend who died of HIV AIDS over 10 years ago and he was the author of his own misfortune. The bottom line is, we all are responsible for our own bodies.
M/M romance is fiction. It is not reality.
Coming late to the party…but one of the issues in American schools: there is no sex ed. If you’re lucky the school still has a “health” class given at about 7th grade and in many schools in many states the ONLY type of birth control the school is allowed to discuss is abstinence.
My sixth grade English teacher (who was Irish) explained the whole screwed up sex things for Americans…”You’re basically all puritans, American’s core values were set by a bunch of sexually & emotionally repressed hard working religious nuts.”
What a geat article, Feliz. You have a wonderful command of the English language. I can’t speak anything but English, and have a huge respect for people who are bi- or multi-lingual.
Living in Australia, I’m exposed to a good deal of both English and American culture.
I started out reading m/m stories in the Harry Potter slash fandoms, and there’s always been some debate about writers using Brit pickers to get their stories right. Most US writers are happy to go along with that, but many argue that the Potter books published in the US had a few alterations, so that American readers would understand the story better. Therefore by using American words in their stories, they’re still canonically correct. But when they start giving Hogwarts students pancakes with bacon, sausages and syrup for breakfast, I tend to fall right out of the story.
That is one of my biggest bugbears – changing English words and concepts to American ones. What a terrific opportunity for different nationalities to become familar with their foreign counterparts! Nothing like learning new things, I say.
And surely everyone has tried muesli for breakfast!! It’s absolutely delicious. 😀
Hi gaycrow,
nice to meet you!
For a story set in the UK I think English writing, spelling and concepts are the way to go. Where’s the point in writing a story set in England, otherwise? The same is true of stories set in Australia, of course.
I like Australian slang (although I don’t understand one word in ten when listening to a “hardboiled” Aussi) and enjoy meeting an Australian character who actually speaks like one.
Muesli delicious? This is surely a matter of personal taste, for I am yet to find one which is only halfway edible…. 🙂
Hi Feliz,
This is a very interesting topic. You did a great job! I know when I read books with non-American characters or set outside North America, I enjoy a little taste of the culture and language, but I can’t imagine trying to figure out all our “American-isms”. We’re an odd conglomeration of cultures melded into one.
Speaking of books set outside of NA, try Geoffrey Knight’s Fathom Five series. They are like the “Raiders of the Lost Ark” movies, with 5 hot gay men traveling the globe on adventures. And do read Harper Fox’s “Driftwood”. It left me speechless.
Thank you TJ
I definitely need to read “Driftwood”. Thanks for the rec.
Interesting post and comments.
Some of the stuff is outdated because some of US writers are outdated. We’re 30 and 40 and up writing about younger people. (I just had this discussion at Pandagon and my LJ)
In the mid 1980s, in a small town, people lived and died by their reputations. Kids got into trouble, based not on their own deeds, but on their family. (justified in some cases, like my classmate who killed his father in a drunken brawl on the main street) My mental landscape still has rotary phones on the kitchen walls.
And I had an apartment (a bedsitter) with a TINY water heater for our shared bathroom. Five minutes of hot water, no more. I became the mistress of the fast shower.
Muesli? That’s like granola, right? If you don’t eat pancakes and sausage and bacon for breakfast, when DO you eat them?
Also, biscuits and gravy is edible based solely on the quality of sausage and amount of black pepper. Try my old favorite of scrapple, cantaloupe and sizzlean. (that was a bacon alternative in the 70s and 80s)
USA graduation can be as expensive as the parents let it. I think it ran us about $200 all told, and $70 was school fines and fees our daughter hadn’t paid over three years. Bun didn’t want a class ring, which is another couple hundred.
I’ve met one man who brought a washcloth. And yes, condoms make sex MUCH nicer, without after-odor or gooeyness or anything but a pleasant ride. (I knew couples in their fifties using them as primary birth control)
I’m always interested in reading how other countries differ. And as was said above, if you don’t see what you want, write it!
(Wave, you’d be horrified at how many people pick up most, if not all, of their sex knowledge and techniques from fiction.)
Hi Angel
As I indicated to Sad Voice, I read books by authors whose stories cover many themes including serial killing (Rick Reed), cheaters (Chris Owen), arsonists (Stephen King, Amanda Young). Are these authors responsible because some fool decides to go out and try something they read about in the books? Sure, kids do stupid things like trying stunts they see on television despite warnings on the shows that they shouldn’t, but is that the creators’ fault?
I believe that everyone is responsible for his or her actions. I read PWP where about 95% of the characters don’t wear condoms. Why don’t readers go after the authors of these books to tell them that their characters should wear condoms because they are setting a bad example to the kids? PWP and M/M are both rated as “adult” so kids and adults have equal access to both.
Het books have even less condoms than M/M yet I don’t see the “condom police” going after het authors demanding that their characters use condoms at all times. There seems to be a double standard in erotic books – books with two men having sex are supposed to be a “teaching tool” yet the ones with a man and a woman are given a pass.
If authors want to have their characters wear condoms at all times, even in long term committed relationships with no cheating, that’s their choice. Similarly if they don’t that’s their choice again. I would never tell you what to write Angie – I may not agree with your characterizations and may say so, but you should be able to write what you want.
I second what Wave said.
re-enacting things you read in fiction books is about on the same level as trying to take your own appendix out because you read in a surgeon’s textbook how it is supposed to be done. You wouldn’t dream of it. Fiction may inspire people (and surely some of the scenes you read in fictional erotica either het or m/m can be quite inspiring), but it’s your own decision if you do so, and you need to be self-conscious enough to know if you can do so without hurting yourself. Nobody else can make this decision for you. If it’s the wrong one, it’s your own fault, and you can’t blame the book.
What a thought-provoking post! As a Brit writing mainly American characters and locations, I’ve often wondered about why that appealed to me more than writing stories/characters set in the UK.
Personally, I’ve been fascinated by the US for as long as I can remember, and I think the appeal of the country as both setting and culture is, for me, the same as the appeal of M/M itself — the scope, the possibilities. I grew up in the 80’s, and those (I know *now*) fantasy images portrayed in TV and movies of glamorous high school proms, sprawling malls, glittering skyscrapers and those huge, wide open spaces were light years away from anything *home* had to offer. I lived a ninety-minute drive from a bookstore, for cryin’ out loud! Try going a long road trip in the UK; north to south would take you about fifteen hours. Not so exciting — unless you count the current price of `petrol` compared to `gas`. 😉
Neither do we really have contrasts in cultures/outlooks/geography/climate on the same scale. Oh, you can have the country boy moving to the big city, but chances are he can still visit his Mum for Sunday lunch if he really wants to. Not so much the Midwestern farm boy landing in San Francisco, or LA, or New York. It becomes an entirely different story, an entirely different character — small rural towns in the UK don’t necessarily have the same connotations (or, more importantly for fiction, the same conflicts) as their US equivalent. I’m in no way saying the conflict isn’t there, it just feels more… nuanced, maybe, and based in different factors, which is an interesting aspect to explore in its own right. But be it with regard to the setting or to characterization/backstory, there’s so much more scope for dramatic/thematic contrast. So much possibility, fewer logistical constraints. That’s been the appeal to me, I think, both as writer and reader (having said that, two of my current WIPs are set in northern England, and Kenya, respectively).
On the other hand, yes, I think in some cases it can definitely become a lazy short-cut, or a shorthand. There’s just less to explain when you’re using a world most of your readership has seen on their TV screen, and on occasion, going for the generic keeps the characters relatable and recognizable, especially when the location isn’t a major plot factor. The same “it’s a given” shorthand as the cleaning and the condom use, I suppose — nothing wrong with it *provided* it doesn’t cheapen the characterization.
I think the UK is caught somewhere between the US and Europe: we have some great similarities but we don’t always fit in with either. Your photos of the supermarket for instance — if they were unlabelled, I wouldn’t have been able to tell you which was which; ours look like *both* photos!
As for biscuits, they’re the things we dunk in our tea *g*. Preferably slathered with chocolate on one side. Seriously though, things like pancakes for breakfast don’t even warrant a double-take for me when I’m reading. Some of it may depend on first hand experience of the countries/cultures in question, but a lot also depends on that element of trust in an author’s storytelling. Most unfamiliar details, in the right context, still make perfect sense.
Hi Cat,
It’s true what was mentioned above that people write what they know. On the other hand, many people know other countries only by films and novels, so if you keep to the picture of any given setting portrayed there, not many will notice if you get something wrong. Thorough research may even manage to convince someone who actually “has been there” you know exactly what you’re talking about.
You’ve got it right with the distances and conflict opportunities. Yet, I love English settings. Something to do with Agatha Christie and Dick Francis, I think, good old friends of my younger years.
You’re writing a book set in Kenya? When and where is it supposed to come out? I’d love to read this.
Very true — before I had my first opportunity to visit the States (and before the days of Google Maps!), I must have spent a small fortune on books and atlases. If my characters needed to get from A to B, then I wanted to know which roads they’d take, how long the journey would be, what they’d pass along the way, and what their destination would look like.
In my personal experience, however (which mostly consists of some of the weirdest questions *ever* — “Oh, you’re British so you must have met the Queen, right?” is my favourite *g* “Uh… no. Not unless you count licking postage stamps.”), it seems to work both ways. Most of the Californians I’ve met over the past few years have a very idealized, rose-tinted and actually pretty antiquated view of Britain today — probably because they don’t always *get* the same amount of close-to-accurate representations in the media, like those of us in Europe get of the US. I’m not always sure that a completely true-to-life depicition of contemporary UK (or many other EU countries) would be as exotic and different as people might expect, beyond the very superficial things.
Ha, the Kenyan book isn’t even finished yet, so I’m not sure where it might eventually end up. Even though the main characters aren’t Kenyan, there’s a whole lot to try and get right in terms of the setting, the society and the supporting characters. But the story called for the setting — it wouldn’t have transplanted anywhere else in the world — so switching to an `easier` setting wasn’t an option.
Outside of the US we grow up with American TV and Hollywood movies and we see the US as kind of a gigantic “movie stage”. When I was the first time in New York I was almost “astonished” those yellow cabs and steaming subway shafts (hmm, is that the right expression?) we always see in the movies are REAL. 😉
But to some of those “weird” american customs. 😉 Not yet mentioned was the system for height and weight, the american pound is different than the pound used in Europe (the american pound is about ten percent less). 6 feet (ca. 1,83 m) is a nice height to remember but when a character is described as 5’7’’ or 6’4’’ and weighing 220 pounds??? Nowadays there are websites and wikis for everything, but many years ago I created a measurement table for myself (1inch = 2,54 cm …) to have an idea about the description of the characters.
Lots of “typical” things like the school system and different breakfast eating habits don’t bother me, I am used to it by many years of reading / watching TV.
About the topic of the mentioning of excessive showering and the “preaching” mentioning of the use of condoms, I think this is more extreme in these “m/m romance” stories with the focus on the romance written by women, I don’t remember it to that extreme in fiction / erotic stories / porn written by gay men. I think those m/m romance stories are also more “politically correct” now, it seems to be daring enough to imagine two guys falling in love / having (explicitly described) sex, everything else has to be very polite, PC and clean. This connects as well with the aversion against the topic of cheating, as was discussed here in the last weeks. I wish for more authors to leave that PC mold to create realistic people with all their flaws. And of course I also would like stories with more diverse cultural backgrounds.
When I went to school it was usual to start to learn English in 5th grade and a second language in 7th grade, French or Latin, and I loved learning English and French and when I found some old English language Agatha Christie books I started at age 13 or 14 to try to read those novels in English without teachers having to tell me to do so, reading whole books for school (like “1984” or “Catcher in the Rye”) came a year or two later. But although I read English for about a quarter of a century now and it is no difference to me if I READ German or English and I have a good knowledge of all the nuances while reading, as I usually don’t have to use English actively, speaking or writing, in my job or private life, I am still a little reluctant to write in English, because I want to get it “right” as a native speaker would do, but that takes a little bit of effort and often in the evening after work I don’t have the energy left to do so. The last three Tuesday topics were very interesting, but I was too tired to write in English and I was already a day or two late anyway when I read those, so I didn’t post anything (yet).
Feliz, you told me several weeks ago you started reading English because you didn’t find no / not enough good m/m books in German language or by German authors. To find gay fiction was always a good argument for me too to keep reading English language books. 😉 You are right, a lot of books by German authors are either very “serious” or completely silly or terribly written. But of course there are some entertaining gay fiction books by German authors: Do you know Jan Stressenreuter? I like his style, realistic but funny and good characters. I can recommend all his books, especially his first novel: “Love to love you, Baby” (English title but German language book) and he writes a crime series now. And if you like crime fiction, I can also recommend “Bullenbeisser” by Rolf Redlin.
And muesli? I like the muesli by Alnatura which you can get at dm. 😉
Hi Quinn,
Strassenreuter: Didn’t he write “Ihn halten wenn er fällt” ? Despite its serious tone, I loved this book. Thank you for the recs, I’ll have to check it out.
I started with French in 5th, Latin and English in 7th. The only way I get to practice English is by reading and writing it, so pretty much the same as you. It’s funny but when writing English I also try to get it as good as possible, so dict.cc is always open on my browser.
The only muesli I liked I had back in switzerland. I was in love with the person who made it for me, so maybe this helped. This is definitely a matter of personal taste since an Australian like gaycrow likes it and I, who as a German am supposed to, do not.
Quinn
One of the reasons I love the bloggers on this site is that they ARE from different countries and therefore I get varied perspectives such as on this post. I wanted Feliz to write the post after she emailed me because I value the contributions of everyone who accesses this site and I like them to believe that their words really have an impact on others. Just read the responses to Feliz’s post and you’ll see a little of what I read every day from other bloggers. You guys matter, if only you knew how much.
Simsala reminded me this morning of a post I did last January (she must have an incredible memory or today is a slow day for her) 🙂 about Lurkers which touched on the reasons why bloggers don’t comment. I wrote the post because I wanted to find out why people like you don’t comment and the reasons were varied – from being shy to not knowing enough English and not wanting to sound stupid. Here’s a link to post and I hope the comments will make you feel confident enough to comment more often. 🙂 No one expects perfect English, even from those for whom English is their first and only language – remember that. I don’t care if you make mistakes in your comments. I want to know what you THINK about the topics under discussion and the only way I’ll find out is if you say something.
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=13739
Wave,
I remember this post too. I must admit I only started to blog in earnest after reading it, and look what it has gotten you into now… 😉
Thank you.
Me too.
“……..die Geister die ich rief….” 🙂
Feliz
I’m very happy if I helped, in some small way, to get you to come out of your shell. I think you have done really well and I’m patting myself on the back right now. A star is born. LOL
Angelia brought up an important point with her comment:
(Wave, you’d be horrified at how many people pick up most, if not all, of their sex knowledge and techniques from fiction.)
That does not mean that fiction should be responsible to teach safe sex but rather that if you are portraying a contemporary story, set in the real world (not sci-fi, paranormal or historical) you do have a certain responsibility to be true and realistic about the culture you describe in order to insure a valid plausibility in your work.
To ignore the ongoing health crisis still affecting both men and women today and not to portray accurately what many sexually active adults routinely do to protect themselves and their loved ones presents a dangerous distortion of reality in what is supposed to be a book exploring life and love in a contemporary setting.
Sad Voice
>>….if you are portraying a contemporary story, set in the real world (not sci-fi, paranormal or historical) you do have a certain responsibility to be true and realistic about the culture you describe in order to insure a valid plausibility in your work. << I read many contemporary books with various themes, including serial killers, cheating etc. and I would never dream of expecting a writer to be responsible for readers who may or may not believe that the authors' books truly represent what a serial killer or cheater does. If someone goes out and kills his neighbours after reading about serial killing is it the author's responsibility? If a man or woman cheats after reading about it, is it the writer's responsibility for the ensuing break-up? Anyone who believes that fiction is real life needs more than a reality check. Het fiction doesn't hold authors up to the same sexual standards and constraints as M/M. Why? Are guys more prone to infection than women? If you read the latest statistics, the highest rates of new HIV infections are among young black women, and seniors are fast gaining on them. Gay men have learned about safe sex from watching their friends die. Women in countries like Africa don't have a choice about wearing condoms because they can't afford one, so they die when their men infect them. Same lesson. Young black women and seniors who don't insist on condoms are stupid - there is enough information on the internet, in schools, in medical journals, from their doctors etc. and if they don't practice safe sex they have no one to blame but themselves when they become infected with an STD or HIV AIDS. I'm sorry but I don't feel that it's a writer's responsibility to be a teacher of safe sex or anything else in our crazy world. Using condoms in an M/M romance is up to the authors and I think if the protagonists use them the first time or two that's OK, especially when they don't know their partners' sexual history, but doing so every single time they have sex in the book even after being tested becomes repetitious and pulls me out of the story. After the first few times my eyes glaze over and I just skip that part of the story. Similarly, movies and television are not the real world and I would definitely not hold actors responsible for the characters they portray. I still don't get why M/M romances are expected to be politically correct and not step on anyone's toes. Let's go after writers in other genres for a change. Please see my response to Angelia.
As an Australian, most of the issues about US food, schools etc aren’t really a problem – obviously I realise they’re different – but I suppose I’ve absorbed the differences by now given all the American TV etc we get here. The big thing I notice in American romances, this goes for het as well as M/M actually, is the attitude to the race of characters. Even the fact that most e-publishers have a separate category for interracial, as if people have to be warned or something? I find a little weird.
Other things like the detail authors put into people’s colour ie cafe au lait or mocha skin, and a lot of descriptions that seem to almost fetishise the differences between interracial partners I also find unusual. I should try to find some specific examples, but my overall impression is that American authors don’t write non-white characters often, but when they do they perhaps overemphasise it.
Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me?
Beck
There are hardly any M/M romances with protagonists of other ethnicities – I would say less than half of 1%. M/f is a little better in this area but still leaves a lot to be desired.
I wrote a post over a year ago, not only about books with protagonists of other ethnicities but other minorites such as those who practice religions other than christianity, culturally diverse characters, physically challenged protagonists, or anything outside of the “mainstream” Here’s a link to the post
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=991
I won’t go into the excuses offered by M/M authors regarding why they don’t write non white characters or those who are “different” such as older protagonists – they are all in post and the comments. Other than Yaoi, M/M romances are apparently targeted at a certain audience, just like television is targeted to the 18 to 49 demographic.
Nothing has changed since my post.
The fact that someone is from another race, another culture or another skin color can bring an enticing twist of conflict to a plot – or it shouldn’t be an issue at all, if it doesn’t add to the plot. Authors who handle this very well are Lynn Lorentz in “Breakfast at Tiffany’s” and “It takes a hero” and A.J. Llewellyn in pretty much all his books.
I read a story a while ago where one of the characters was obviously African American. His race wasn’t mentioned once since it simply wasn’t important for the plot. This is admirable.
Feliz
You make a very important distinction here and I wish more authors would get it. I’m black and I like to read about characters of colour but I’m not American nor do I consider myself African because an ancestor centuries ago might have come here on a slave ship or some other means. However, sometimes I feel invisible because mainstream writers ignore people of colour (brown, black, yellow or whatever) or alternatively, when they write about them they write with a heavy hand as if blacks walk around strutting or shouting “I’m black and I’m proud” or American Indians perform a war dance every day, or all Latinos are drug dealers. This pisses me off no end. Authors, we’re just ordinary people and when you write characters who are different (physically challenged, culturally or ethnically different) just treat them as any other character and don’t marginalize them. *getting off my soap box.* 🙁
Holland has a great pancake culture but it is considered lunch or dinner food. (The shape and size is different too, they are as wide as your frying pan and thin) Eggs and/or bacon are also for lunch.
Breakfast is (brown) bread with jam or cheese. Or the muesli with milk/ yoghurt.
The idea to eat so much heavy greasy stuff does not really appeal to me that’s why I notice it all the time. Also you hear a lot on tv about how obese the general american population is and I think then no wonder, if you eat that much for breakfast.
I am now feeling an urge to write a story centred around a village cricket match. Or possibly a few frames of snooker — somewhere on the last-but-third hard drive are the notes for a Blake/Vila story with part of the dialogue lifted directly from commentary at the Crucible.
You find cultural differences in all sorts of odd corners. I had to re-write a couple of paragraphs of “Lord and Master” after my editor pointed out that most Americans were going to be confused by my references to sunset times in London unless I made it explicit that those times are much later in summer and much earlier in winter than is experienced across much of the contiguous 48.
And on the condom thing — the Lord and Master characters are still using condoms for anal sex, even after they’ve been married for three years, but that’s a personal quirk of Steven’s which Mark puts up with because he loves him…
Cricket? Since according to what I’ve heard a cricket match takes a week there should be room enough for a romance. I’d totally read this.
And there’s nothing wrong with personal quirks. Nothing at all. 😉
Top level professional cricket matches take (nearly) a week. Village matches can be done in a day — but that’s still enough for sparks to start, and be fanned at the next match. 🙂
I would love to read an m/m set around village cricket – would they be competing for the Village Cup?
Wave’s post a few weeks back about m/m books centred around sport gave me a plot bunny centred around a test match, but as I’ve only become interested in cricket in the last few years (and mostly in the last 2, since we moved to a place which doesn’t have FM radio reception so it’s longwave or via-internet, lol) I don’t really know anything about the non-international side of things. Can’t think of a better way of learning a bit than by reading an m/m romance set around it 😀
@Ingrid, I do manual labor before 7 AM. I like some protein in my breakfast. When I worked in an office, cereal was fine.
On the race thing…*sigh* We just DID race!fail over in fandom. A white writer cannot write characters of color without appropriating, but to write a world without them is racist by omission. Interracial is labeled so that those who like it can find it more easily. And the US has a really difficult time talking about race, racism and other stuff.
I think people can be profoundly influenced by what is in books. There are whole religions built on that idea. This is also why you find a lot of poly people in SF fandom: too much Heinlein.
Most people understand that serial killing is undesirable, just as they understand sex is desirable. The average reader is much more likely to try rimming, just because he read about it, than to try scooping out his lover’s eyes with a grapefruit spoon (both of which I’ve written). There will always be someone who goes “ooo, cool, I never thought of that!” and tries what they’ve just read. I was that person, but I learned to research the acts after the tabasco sauce. So I write realistically, no matter what genre I write. And I do go off on m/f and f/f authors who do stupid stuff with their sex scenes.
Angel
I know that writing about race is touchy, but we write about religion which is probably the #1 issue in our world and one that has already started countless wars and killed millions.
There are a few white writers who write M/M books with other ethnicities as protags, without making a big deal about their race, and I mentioned some of them in my post a year ago. It can be done and done well. Other races are not a different species. You might be surprised to find that you and I agree on most things. I don’t ‘live’ my race 24/7 – my family is made up of mostly mongrels because there is so much intermarriage and we have the best time debunking all the theories about race. You know some of the ones I mean. No, black men do not have the biggest cocks, despite what you see in porn, gay or otherwise. On average they may be bigger but not the biggest. TMI? LOL
We need to introduce some humour into these posts.
Just remember Angel when I go on a rampage and start killing people I’ll blame your books and then sue you. 🙂
Re the other stuff: I still maintain that M/M books are not a teaching tool. Why do these books have to be politically correct? Why are readers trying to set standards for the sub genre? If I don’t like a particular sub genre or genre I don’t read the books. I did that with het and haven’t read a het book in about 3 years because I began to hate the way women were characterized as TSTL in a lot of the books. M/M should not be required to set standards for anything, including sexual mores, and if some readers don’t like what they read they should speak with their money – by not buying the books. That works.
Wave, I have to agree with you. I don’t expect fiction books, which is what we are talking about here, to be held to the same standards as non-fiction. These are supposed to be entertaining stories, sometimes absolute fantasies, not how-to manuals.
Having said that, I think that a talented writer can teach us many things during the telling of a story, but it is not a requirement. I also am very aware while I am reading, that although this might be entertaining, it’s not necessarily safe to try in my RL. I’m not about to go out on a boat during a storm, but did thoroughly enjoy reading about this recently. 😉
TJ
You’re not going out in a storm? Damn! I was going to offer to go with you even though I’m not a good swimmer – make that a poor swimmer. 🙂
As you said, talented writers can teach us many things by not preaching. I do notice when there’s a lack of condoms in situations I think might be unsafe, and even comment at times. (some nerve huh?) But I never say that the author has to put jackets on his/ or her guys. I feel it’s entirely up to the author, not the editor or the publisher or the readers to dictate what they include in their stories. I should probably write a story with lots and lots of condoms. LOL
Wave,
“I do notice when there’s a lack of condoms in situations I think might be unsafe, and even comment at times. (some nerve huh?)”
Yes, me too, and I grumble “idiot” as I read and move on knowing that a smart man would use a condom in that situation. I do think they should be included in stories when needed, but can be done without sounding like we’re reading the directions on the back of the box. When a character leaves a room, we don’t expect a step by step description of him grasping door knob, turning it clockwise, pulling it toward himself, etc. They just open the door and leave. To me it should be there but more subtle.
Ooh – do write a condom book Wave! It could be all about cheaters who practice safe sex! 😉
TJ
You really shouldn’t dare me. 🙂
Jules, a story set at the Crucible might be something 🙂
I would so very much like to put a ticket to the snooker world championship down as a business expense. Or a ticket to the next Test at Old Trafford…
Lovely stuff! I travelled to Britain this summer and had my first ever afternoon tea with scones , and it was absolutely delicious I thought I’d try and make my own last weekend. I might have deviated from the norm maybe – I found a bunch of random scone recipes here and made 5 different kinds! My friends were so happy when I invited them round for tea and scones, complete with real whipped cream. Great fun!
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