Over the last 8 years or so M/M has evolved and keeps evolving, which is a good thing, because without positive change and/or progress, businesses die. New themes have been introduced and I love many of them, as I’m sure do most of you.
Initially M/M had a problem being accepted into the “Romance” genre because RWA (the Romance Writers of America) which apparently is the official arbiter of all things “romance,” decided that stories about two men in love could not be part of the genre. However RWA now has a new definition of romance which is more inclusive:
“Two basic elements comprise every romance novel: a central love story and an emotionally-satisfying and optimistic ending.”
I asked one publisher what constitutes a romance for them and this is what they said
“We define a romance as a story that focuses on protagonists who, by the end of the story, have fallen in love, and the story ends with either a happily ever after (HEA) or a happy for now (HFN) for the protagonists. There’s always some wiggle room and I would never presume to have a rigid definition of romance. But at the core of the tale, for me, there has to be a love story, and it should end optimistically.
Obviously M/M was not going to wait around to be accepted by RWA so publishers and authors carried on business as usual and readers benefited from the explosion of new authors and books. Most readers loved the fact that M/M romance was growing exponentially. Then a trend emerged, as more and more M/M ‘romance’ books seemed to have been hijacked by gratuitous violence, rape, beatings of protagonists almost to the point of death, children being raped, extreme humiliation of the characters, and gore. Where’s the ‘romance’? Is it the chapter tacked on at the end of the book with the victim falling in love with his rapist, and the obligatory HEA?
There are many different themes in this sub genre which is a good thing because books should be diverse, and there’s no universal ‘one size fits all’. Readers don’t expect their books to only be about two men who fall in love, have a few internal or external conflicts and an HEA, because a constant diet of that would be boring to a lot of us. However it seems that lately a portion of the books released are on topics that gross some of us out as the amount and level of violence, and frequency of assaults on characters, seem to be taking over the sub genre. Some of the guest reviewers on this site are even refusing to review certain books because they are disgusted with the content.
Of course under no circumstances should readers tell authors what to write, but we can express our opinions about what we like or find reprehensible. This trend of excessive violence towards characters seems to be on an upward curve as authors appear to be trying to outdo each other. Authors who want to write books with violent content should be free to go where their muse takes them because we all have different tolerance levels and some readers like violence, but I do have a concern when these books are not properly labelled. If readers are made aware of the content they can make informed decisions before they buy a book. What has been happening lately is that because some of the time reviewers have no idea of a book’s content in terms of level of violence or other kinks that they may encounter we’re running into problems. This is what one reviewer said about a recent book that she still has not reviewed:
“I was shocked and frankly sickened by what I found — extreme BDSM and punishment, rape, torture and even death of a very minor character because of the aforementioned. These are definitely things on my no-no list ……. Talk about being out of my comfort zone; it gave me nightmares”
Another reviewer said in a review:
“As part of ….. total dominance …..he makes him drink his urine. This led to a few detailed ‘golden shower’ scenes which, frankly, nauseated me.” It gets worse …
“There was one particular scene where the two men are at a water park and …..urinates into a empty water bottle and ….. has to carry it around and drink from it during the day. To be honest it made me feel ill. It still makes me feel ill just thinking and writing about it now. There may be some readers out there who don’t mind urine play in their D/s books but it just wasn’t my thing and I don’t want to read about it in my m/m books.”
And yet another comment:
“Several books are labeled romance yet contain elements of rape, torture, beatings, and bloody, graphic violence. The problem is not the violence per se since many readers understand violence – even rape – can and does happen in the world and in fiction. The problem is when the added acts of violence are extreme and unnecessary and simply not important to the central story. When this violence is offered without the much needed happy ending and redemption, the story becomes a vehicle to shock and horrify rather than using that violence as a means to an end. One example is a recent book that offers at least three graphic and bloody violent scenes and one tepid pseudo love scene. If the violence outweighs the romantic elements, how is that a romance?”
Reviewers act as filters for the readers and we indicate in our reviews where there is content that may be offensive to certain people. But what happens when the reviewers are now too grossed out to finish the books? Many of these books are published by “Romance” publishers so readers expect that they would at least be romances. However, what they find instead are some of the examples provided above. On Sunday in my weekly update I asked readers for their views about this new trend in M/M, and based on the sampling of responses, many readers apparently have negative views about it. Here’s the link if you wish to read these comments
Teddypig, one of the commenters on Sunday, had this to say
“It’s not about how well it is written. It’s not about how well it is edited. It’s not about how striking is the cover art. It’s not even about if the content works for me or not. Those are opinions.
It’s the facts about what is in writing and what is on the label or “not on the label” when the book is sold that bothers me.
The problem comes from publishers and editors who want to argue what Romance is or act like they know better and blatantly mislabel or simply leave off any obvious warnings for content that plainly is outside the bounds of what a typical Romance reader is expecting.
If readers start posting strong negative reactions to something they just read that should mean something because most readers I know will choose to NOT say anything than spend much effort in expressing their discomfort. I have seen flame wars about personality conflicts and perceived wrongs amongst readers but out right negative posts over book content should be a big red flag something is very wrong.”
So what’s the solution? Is better labelling the answer? A few publishers already do so (Amber Allure, Loose Id, Samhain, Liquid Silver) but many others don’t, or when they do they omit key facts that would allow readers and reviewers to make informed decisions about whether certain books are appropriate for them. Electronic books are not returnable once you buy them. You can’t read them in the book store the way you can a print book. Authors and epublishers defend not labelling their ebooks by saying that print books are not labelled, and they also regard labelling of ebooks as a form of censorship, however the main reason proper labelling of ebooks is necessary is because they are not returnable for content so it’s buyer beware. You can only return ebooks to the publishers if they are defective, and then they send you the same book again.
I know this is a controversial topic but readers are already boycotting a few of their favourite authors because they are sickened by the contents of some of their books, consequently they are no longer auto buys as they no longer trust them. Labelling would allow purchasers to make informed decisions before they buy.
The floor is open for your comments.
Wow. I have to admit to never having run across a book that so grossly differs from its blurb. But then, I tend to only purchase books that already come with warning labels or are recommended by trusted friends or reviewers. Having been burned several times by books with superbly bad writing, I no longer buy authors I or someone else doesn’t know, nor do I buy from certain publishers who have a reputation for publishing crap. That means that I just haven’t noticed this trend of which you speak.
I think better labels would be helpful for those that are more willing to take a chance on new authors/publishers. It benefits publishers if they engage in honest advertising, since then they will attract the kind of customer to whom the book is actually targeted.
However, I don’t think that extreme violence or extreme BDSM or even a lack of HEA/HFN in itself means that a story can’t be labelled as romance (RWA definition be damned!). What’s to the taste of one may not be to the taste of another, and that’s what makes m/m romance’s status as a niche genre so great. It means that this genre is far more flexible than mainstream het romance in what it offers. Frankly, I appreciate that!
Hi Alaina
Because we read so many books here for review we seem to come across a wide range of stories, from sweet romances to those mentioned in the post.
In terms of the definition of “romance” by RWA, even the authors and readers feel that without an HEA/HFN the book is not a romance. I did a post about a year ago on this topic, advocating that a book could still be a romance without an HEA or HFN but the majority of readers and authors disagreed vehemently and I was beaten up. 🙁 I still have the scars. lol Since romances are the highest selling books in fiction, many authors stick in that little HEA or HFN at the end of their stories in order for their books to be classified as “romance”.
I agree that that a romance shouldn’t be defined by the HEA but most others disagree, so I now call those books without an HEA or HFN a “love story” if I think that’s what it is.
However, the bigger issue is what appears to be a flood of books that are extremely violent or the kink is offensive except to a few readers. Where do you draw the line? Are these romances when three quarters of the book is taken up by one violent episode after another? If I want to read a murder mystery or a book about a serial killer then I will check the publishers’ sites for books that fit that description, but I don’t expect to find the same level of extreme violence in a “romance.”
When I introduced this topic of extreme violence in M/M romances on Sunday the majority of readers seemed to be on the conservative side – they wanted something different but they were grossed out by some of what they had been reading lately. If a book contains a series of violent acts and then only has a couple of chapters tacked on in order to gain that all-important “romance” designation by the publisher, is it really a romance?
This is really tough. Especially when you’re talking about BDSM, because within that there are so many different things that are a “hard limit” for many people, whether they’re into BDSM or not. And so many people/characters like more than one kink, so while you as a reader might like pony play but hate golden showers, the characters might be doing both. You’d have to list every kink that appears in the book, and that could be a daunting task. If you’re reading BDSM romance, you should almost expect there to be one or two kinks you don’t like too much. Of course, the book should state, at the very least, in the blurb on the back, that there’s BDSM, because that’s a major thing that’s VERY different from straight romance, even though there can be, and often times is, a lot of romance involved.
As for violence, that’s a little different in that there can easily be a lot of violence in regular romance novels. What about the knight who slays the beast to protect his lover? Or, are we going to only label extreme violence, where it seems as if there is only violence for the sake of violence? If we do that, then we should also label books that have sex just for the sake of sex, without the plot. Those hardly seem romantic at all, even with all that sex. I would like to know if a book I’m looking at has no plot but a lot of useless sex. I can’t stand books like that where the sex gets repetitive, and then what do I do with them once I buy them? It’s a waste of money for me.
However, I will also mention this: m/m romance is still in it’s beginning stages. We are still seeing a boom of bad writers who are getting published just because they can, because there aren’t enough good writers out there yet. But, little by little, the genre as a whole gets better. Good writers are starting to appear out of the woodwork, and with them come good plots, good characters, and a sense of the right amount of violence needed in their work.
With that noted, yes, BDSM should be labeled as such, if it’s not obvious just from reading the blurb (and how could it not be obvious? It should be, if that’s what the book is about.), but violence, not so much, because I think it will get better over time. But, if you want to label the early works, fine. Just be sure to also label those with constant sex too, not just the violence.
Hi QOTU
Thanks for commenting and I really appreciate your comments. Many of us readers are freaked out by things that would not bother others. For example, I just reviewed a book and I included three warnings in the review – religious themes, lots of blood and some shifted sex – things that bother others but not me.
I guess what I’m saying is that there’s a kink for everyone and we have no right to deny others their fix. However if it’s something that will gross me out I would like to have an idea before I read the book.
I love ‘lite’ BDSM but some BDSM books are not for me as I found out so now that I know those authors I won’t be buying their books even though the authors are well known in the lifestyle.
There’s no easy answer to this problem but what bothers me are those publishers who refuse to give readers a heads up. I can’t figure out if they value the immediate sale more, without realizing that if someone is disappointed that the book is totally different to what they expected and they and grossed out by offensive content they won’t be back. Very shortsighted of them.
Some violence that we have read here is pretty gross – so I deal with it by avoiding some authors. A couple of the reviewers have asked me not to send them books by certain authors, having been burned once or twice. What authors don’t realize is that they will lose a lot of credibility with their fans if they become disenchanted by a lack of warnings where it’s obvious they are absolutely necessary.
I wrote an author a couple of weeks ago and asked him about the typical content I could expect in his books. He and I agreed that despite the fact I loved his writing some of his books may not be to my taste. I was most appreciative that we had our little discussion. Obviously not every reader would take the time to find out but the onus should always be on the publisher and the author to warn of content that is generally deemed ‘offensive’. Of course no one can warn about everything or anticipate every reader’s tipping point but at least show some concern.
I have a pretty high tolerance for violence but some types gross me out (e.g.I hate rape themes generally and rarely read books where this is a central thrust, but I absolutely refuse to read books where children are raped, no matter how well written, and even if the book is by a favourite author, because the topic really upsets me).
I have written many posts about the amount of sex in M/M and even when I review a book I indicate if I think the sex is excessive, but that would be my personal opinion. I’m told by other readers and reviewers that they love lots and lots of sex.
I realize that this sub genre is “new” but it’s been around in its current form for almost a decade so shouldn’t publishers and authors be held accountable for a few things ? Should we wait for m/m to be around for 25 years before we see any progress? I really would not want to see it become like M/F, but that’s my personal opinion. There are many new authors and no real editing done on some of the books, and readers are becoming disenchanted by the lack of professionalism, since some of the books look like they are self published. M/M is becoming big business but we need some professionalism.
Thanks again for commenting.
I just don’t know, Wave. I mean, 90% of me agrees better labeling is the way to go. We readers expect labels in m/m, maybe because the tradition started with fanfic.
If I get ambushed by a rape scene in m/m fiction and I have no warning, I’m going to experience some extreme consumer dissonance. Depending upon the author and the publisher, I might not ever read that author again, and I might even avoid the publisher.
When I write reviews, I try to warn the readers first with a “PLOT SPOILER” label and then with the content warning further down in the review so readers can check it out if they wish. By the way, I’ve been lucky with what I’ve read on this site – I’m not one of those reviewers you’ve quoted above. 🙂
On the other hand, the authors are going to find their sales seriously threatened by a label, which can’t express the subtleties of what exactly they’re writing about and how well they’re handling it.
For example, I have almost zero tolerance for certain types of fictional violence (rape, extreme bdsm, torture) and I’m okay with other types (combat, fantasy/horror). For more than a year, I was afraid to read Alive on the Inside because of all of its warning labels and I finally read it over this weekend, and it was outstanding. The authors handled the bizarre boundary-pushing stuff with such skill that it made sense, was intrinsic to the story, and didn’t lose me. I wouldn’t have wanted to miss that reading experience.
Val
Since there is no way to know the content of some of these books (the blurbs are bland and don’t help) how are readers supposed to figure out whether there is ‘offensive’ content (offensive to them)?
I think publishers and authors need to do a better job or some authors are going to lose a lot of fans who are ‘surprised.’
Everyone has different tolerances, and publishers and authors can’t have labels put on books for every kink or type of violence, but there can be labels for the types of gross violence or kinks that upset the majority of readers. It can’t be that difficult. What will happen when reviewers refuse to read many books because they are grossed out? The readers will be on their own because we are no longer their filters.
No, none of those comments in the post can be attributed to you. lol
I didn’t mention specific books because I don’t want to either highlight them or unnecessarily demonize them, but I know that regardless how highly a book is rated there are some that I won’t read because some elements gross me out.
Some themes like BDSM, fantasy and horror are known for violence, and lovers of these types of books expect violence and extreme kink. However for those who are unwary it’s good customer service to tack on a warning.
I don’t read books with child rape regardless the context or the author because it repels me. Others don’t mind it but for people like me I hope that the publishers would include a warning on the label.
There is no easy answer because many authors feel that this is censorship, however if I’m buying an ebook I would like to have an idea of the contents because once I buy it, it’s mine, no returns.
Since there is no way to know the content of some of these books (the blurbs are bland and don’t help) how are readers supposed to figure out whether there is ‘offensive’ content (offensive to them)?
You make a good point, especially because the blurbs can be worthless or misleading. So does Lasha with this,
I’ve always said warnings are not bad for books – or authors. I prefer to think of warnings as marketing techniques.
I agree! I try to use my “Story elements include …” line in reviews to help readers match up with books that feature the themes they like such as friends to lovers, amnesia, road trip, whatever. I’ve bought books where reviewers have pointed out themes or locations that I like. I definitely find labels useful.
Wow, I didn’t realize there was such extreme cases of what can only be considered mislabeling out there. I have to say if I got my hands on one of those books I’d be very unhappy. I hate torture for the sake of it. I understand there are situations in stories where it is a part of the story. However there are also times I’ve come across it and it seemed to have been written in for the love of the shock with no real value to the story at all. I admit this was fanfiction. If it happened in a purchased book that author would be off my list, probably forever.
It’s really odd to me because one of the things I worried about obsessively when writing the blurb for Our December was making sure the reader did not feel misled in any way. I am referring to the fact Alex was 15. I know there are a lot of readers who are very sensitive about this and I didn’t want anyone going holy cow I didn’t know about this! In contrast to what has been described here that seems so minor.
Many times the blurb or a short excerpt are the only things a reader has to go by, especially buying ebooks. I think it’s vital that the blurb reflect the true contents of the book. I shudder to think we could end up in a ff situation where every single thing that might trip a button in someone must be listed (too extreme the other way) but at the same time I don’t want to buy what I think is going to be a loving romance only to end up with nightmares. It seems clearer labeling is the answer, or perhaps a new genre such as dark romance?
Hi Diane
Unfortunately there seems to be trend now where a few authors are trying to outdo each other in the gore department. I know there is a market for this or they wouldn’t write it, but for the rest of readers who want something a little less gross I think labelling would serve the purpose. The authors don’t have to change what they want to write just let us know what’s in their books.
Many blurbs do not reflect what is in M/M books because authors and/or publishers think they will lose sales if the real content was revealed. What they don’t seem to realize is that they could lose even more fans by not disclosing content they may find offensive. Over and over readers have indicated that it’s important to trust the authors and if they don’t they just stop buying their books.
Hmmm. I can’t say there is anything I read that freaked me out, but there a couple of books I have passed on because of content and I guess I’m just lucky that I found reviews of those before I would have purchased them so was able to skip it. I’ve read some that are not to my taste, extreme BDSM is not my thing and I’ve probably had a few DNF (or quick skims), but I know others love that so I take it as just my preference. Who can warn me how far the line will be pushed? Until I read it I don’t know how far is too far for me. There’s no hard line, that would make life easier.
I just read Wicked Gentlemen and I’m trying to convince my teen to give it a whirl and then I thought “Hmmm, it’s pretty violent and graphic on the blood and guts side.” But it fit and I come from years of reading murder mysteries where child murders, serial killers and mad rapists along with autopsies were written about in detail so that doesn’t freak me out as much as some people and I don’t mind on those type of books if the romance takes a back seat to the crime part. I haven’t read a book where the guy falls in love with his rapist (not counting yaoi), that would be too far I think, rape itself if it fits I can live with in fiction.
I don’t know. Maybe I’ve just been lucky that I’ve not run across anythin and had a “OMG, that’s disgusting!” reaction. Crap, I probably just jinxed myself. 🙂 Warnings are fine because as you said, you can read an excerpt of an e-book but that is the pages chosen by the publisher, you can’t skip through to page 87 or 114 and see what it says like you can leafing throuh a paper book at Chapters.
Tam
You play on the shallow side of the pool so you’re safe. lol
there is no hard line but if you know ahead of time for example to expect a rape in a book and that’s offensive to you, regardless of the rating of the book, you might decide to pass (or not). The thing is everyone does not have the same tolerance limit for different levels of extreme violence or kink and if the publisher just states for example “this book contains golden showers, rape and torture” someone who wasn’t into those things would give the book a pass. If they still buy the book then they should not complain.
Blurbs are sometimes almost useless because they contain only the information that the author or publisher thinks is the selling point of the book. However if they had to put a label on it that’s somethng else entirely.
I completely agree with this post. Thank you for articulating what I have been thinking for years.
From personal experience I bought a book from an author I trusted and liked, it was the sequel to a m/m romance novel I really enjoyed. The sequel had extreme BDSM (not my cup of tea, but I could read it if it just had those elements), but also included non-con, torture and a fuck-or-die scenario that served no purpose. To me, that part of the plot was unnecessary and gratuitous.
I would have liked a warning for that. Sad to say it is the only book I have ever deleted off my Kindle and now I will never buy a title from that author unless I know the book has been vetted not to have those extreme elements.
I’ve always said warnings are not bad for books – or authors. I prefer to think of warnings as marketing techniques. Example: I am an author who writes a book where the protagonist has a child. Yes some people will not buy it because they don’t like “kid fic,” but others like me love it. So if I see something labeled with a ‘kid warning,’ that makes me more willing to buy it because it suits my reading quirks. IMO, it is free advertising to your fan base that likes that genre/trope/kink.
I don’t know if there needs to be an explicit label about something like kids, or anything out of the ordinary, but that should be stated clearly in the blurb. (I am wrestling with this at present because my new book has a kid in it, and I know readers have Very Strong Opinions about such things, so I wanted the blurb to make that clear.)
Probably a bad example for pro writing, but warning for kid!fic are the norm in fannish circles.
Your new book has a kid in it? Consider it bought when it’s published!
I think the loss of trust is what most authors don’t understand when fans read their books and find out too late that the content touches their hot buttons. Now this particular author has lost you as a reader – multiply this by 100 and you have lost a considerable income.
Re “kid fic,” that could be a positive as well as a negative because I know that many readers love stories with kids, as long as they don’t take over the entire story.
I haven’t yet come across such reading experiences as you are describing, Wave, so it might be a bit difficult for me to state my opinon on a trend I haven’t noticed/experienced yet.
Labelling correctly as in stating necessary warnings isn’t censorship, imho (and I honestly have a hard time seeing why publishers feel the need to use such a powerful word in this context). Correct labelling is a question of necessary product information to reach the intended target audience – if you have one. If you do not and you mess up, deal with the repercussions. Easy business rule.
Side note: imo the m/m labelling and the warning of sexual acts between men is discriminating, a warning of extreme BDSM is informative.
Qotu mentioned a “constant/gratuitous sex” label which I think is a great idea. And that shows how difficult it can be to label correctly because when you put aside the personal reactions/preferences of readers you have to look at it from a neutral pov and I don’t even want to know what kind of labellings might become necessary then.
Labelling BDSM and differentiating between light and extrem or heavy is necessary, imo. But ultimately, if you read BDSM and come across something that grosses you out I’d tend so say it’s part of the risk and simply bad luck.
On this site I read many a (positive) review about books that could qualify for one or more of those issues you mentioned, Wave. (And iirc the above golden shower example was one of them.) Non-con, dub-con, Stockholm-Syndrome, to name a few, and I’d dearly miss those even if they lack the “traditional romance” aspect.
But I understand where you are coming from. Correct labelling can help spare readers experiences that you listed above. Still, I see the problem of what or how to label without labelling books to death.
Basically, if publishers/authors stuck to the above definitions of romance they still have a lot of room for I don’t know what. So maybe in the end is has to come down to “natural selection” by the readers that might help sharpen (sub)genre boundaries in the long-run. Which is a usual stage of development in a still young and growing market.
A question just popped up: is the labelling as lacking or extrem – whichever position you want to take – in m/f romance/erotica?
Honestly, I can’t say I’ve experienced things that I felt needed better labeling. But, I’m pretty open to just about anything, in my reading. I’m not actively participating in a BDSM scene in a book, so I have that looking through a doorway or open window kind of thing. It’s ok. I’m not the one particpating in that golden shower. I can read about it and then walk away. I can look at it as ‘it’s not my thing, sure, but other people do like it’. And hey, maybe I’ve learned something along the way about situations found in these books, who knows.
It’s as Val said, if you label a book as contaning rape, how can you also label how the writer handles it? Sometimes that’s the important part that makes or breaks it for some readers. Say you have a character, who in chapter one, is being raped. His saviour might come along later and help him heal in a very romantic way. And, maybe the actual rape scene is more of a flashback/recap so you know why he’s nervous about walking into the bar that his friend dragged him to. Someone who hates rape scenes might actually read that if they knew how it was handled. But, even if it’s labeled, you won’t know until you read it. Otherwise, a label becomes just like reading the book in one complete sentence. And what’s the point in that?
I don’t like stories that are just sex for the sake of sex, as previously mentioned, but other readers might find that romantic. Sure you can label it erotic romance, but even that label doesn’t tell you much about the book. I’ve ready plenty of erotic romance that’s not sex just for sex.
For example, I would have skipped the Deviations series if I’d known that in book 3 Noah gets put in a cage. I don’t go for that at all. But, the way the writers handled it, and the compassion of Tobias, his Master, made it ok, made it great in fact. And I love the series.
Josh Lanyon recently commented on GoodReads that women who read m/m are adventurous in their reading. I’d really like to believe that. But, are we really, if we just want to label everything? That’s like saying “Oh, that’s bad, don’t go there, don’t read that.” And what’s that saying about us? Sometimes you have to take a chance in order to read a good book. And taking that chance, you just might find yourself pleasantly surprised.
I’ve called the stories I write “dark” many times and I’ve been corrected just as many times. So, I’m not sure that a term like that would help anything. Dark to one person, is not dark to someone else. It’s like the fact that a lot of m/m romance seems to be listed under “erotic” even when it’s not, just because it’s m/m.
Blurbs are tricky to write, sure, but they should say enough about the book to give you fair warning. That’s what they’re for anyway, right? To tell you what the book’s about?
But, hey, these are just my thoughts, and I tend to be pretty open to the kinds of things I read anyway. Heh, I’m a picky eater, but at least I’m not a picky reader. lol.
How about those readers who don’t give a damn how the rape is handled because rape is one of their hot buttons, (maybe a childhood incident), and they just don’t want to read about it? I think they should be respected and a warning about the rape placed on the book. The reviewers here certainly indicate when/if there is rape or dub/con because we know it’s a hot button issue.
Most blurbs are useless from the perspective of telling readers what they really want to know. They are sometimes written by the publishers’ publicity people who gloss over anything that might be considered unpleasant. Same thing if an author writes the blurb, they tell you what they want you to know not what you should know.
I’m very open and liberal and have my own kinks but they are not someone else’s, so I warn them if it comes up in a book. For example I love twincest which grosses some readers out so I include a warning in my reviews about books with twincest.
If more writers and publishers regarded labels as a marketing tool and not as censorship perhaps they would be more positive about it. Since you can’t return an ebook you need to know as much as possible before you buy it. About a third of my hard drive is full of DNF books and my credit card would be a lot happier if I bought books that I knew a bit about rather than buying in the dark.
I have to say that there is a generality about BDSM being made that bothers me.
In my opinion there is a big difference between BDSM Fantasy and what BDSM actually is in practice currently.
Part of the problem is there seems to be a real lack of designation between fiction that is BDSM Erotic Fantasy derived and fiction that describes what is supposed to be a Contemporary BDSM Romance.
I am into BDSM in real life but I still have no issues with using labels that describe the kinks being written about. Just like guys at clubs will discuss “what they are into” or wear those silly colored hankies.
Not everyone is into every kink that could be labeled BDSM and a writer and a publisher should be aware and understanding of this fact of real life.
TP
I used to read a lot of BDSM until I realized that many of the authors knew very little about the subject matter and weren’t doing the necessary research. Unfortunately stupid people practice what they read in these books and get hurt. So now I usually stick with ‘lite’ BDSM although I still like books such as the Deviations series.
What colour hankie would you wear TP? 🙂 Red for danger? lol.
I love certain kinks that others may abhor and vice versa so I try to be sensitive to other readers’ tolerance of certain M/M practices. Labelling is not a punishment or censorship as many authors and publishers seem to think. Amber Allure does an excellent job of labelling and maybe a few authors should check out their site.
Well red means fisting Wave and well I can’t say I have not done that along with black and yellow and several other colors that if I were to describe the actual acts might make your hair stand on end.
As I like to say… It’s not so much the limits you set as a bottom it’s how convincing the Top is to push you beyond those limits that makes for a good scene.
You have to email me to tell me about the other colours TP. BTW someone did tell me about red which is why I mentioned it. 🙂 I once did a post about kinks a long time ago and I was ‘educated’ about fisting. lol
I met some very interesting people during that post and one is a very good friend today.
@Teddypig In my opinion there is a big difference between BDSM Fantasy and what BDSM actually is in practice currently.
Yes, and depending on the city/municipality/group,this experience can vary widely.
The BDSM elements in our books centered on the topic (namely, “Soft Focus” and “A Perfect Game”) is experientially based, both titles of which have taken considerable criticism for being “BDSM Lite.” And that’s fine. Maybe we don’t play as hard as others, or have as many bodily fluids implicated, but it’s no less hot for those involved.
And my favorite hankie color should be no huge secret at this point. 🙂
–Jaye
Jaye
I’ll remember to ask that question. It would be interesting to see your answer. Also Reno’s 🙂
Opening scene of “Firecracker,” honey. 😉
Reno’s mileage may vary.
I remember now but the rest of the fans may need a refresher. As for Reno I’m looking forward to exploring what drives him, other than you. 🙂
“Yes, and depending on the city/municipality/group,this experience can vary widely.”
Not if we are talking about Contemporary BDSM and the basics like “safe sane or consensual”.
That is bare minimum in my opinion and I still see stories that do not reflect those basics at all being called Contemporary BDSM.
I actually had an extreme reaction to a book I recently read where the content upset me a lot. I had a feeling I might not like the book but bought it because I had liked previous work by this author that centered on the same subject and was handled well there.
I generally dont like rape/violence or BDSM but I have read books where those things are handled well so I tend to trust authors more than content (which I did in this case). AM Riley has written an excellent book which touches on BDSM. The very violent rape in the beginning of the Mercenary stories by Aleksandr Voinov et al is integral to that story.
But yes, what you speculate in wave, that an author can go from a sure-buy list to a reluctant list is what happened for me in this case.
Hi Saga
I wish more authors and publishers would realize that full disclosure is an excellent marketing technique and not intended to be punitive. I have dropped a few authors because their blurbs omitted key information and I ended up being grossed out. So now I’m very cautious but I still have to review a lot of books I would not normally read.
As I said in the post, a lot of authors will find that some reviewers are going to refuse to review their books. There are too many other books we can review and if an author is not honest we just take a pass.
Because of your reaction to this book you will now no longer trust this author and probably won’t buy his/her books anymore. Maybe you should let him/her know how damaging this is.
Because of your reaction to this book you will now no longer trust this author and probably won’t buy his/her books anymore. Maybe you should let him/her know how damaging this is.
Maybe, but I still understand the author wanted to write a “new” kind of story. I based my trust on previous work that he/she would take me to an interesting place, no matter theme. It just shocked me how brutal I thought the psychology of the storyline was. I just can’t see what other people seem to see.
Also, as a reader I usually get totally emmersed in the storyline and that can be a vulnerable position if the story is cruel.
@Wave . . . the onus should always be on the publisher and the author to warn of content that is generally deemed ‘offensive’.
Absolutely. I always warn for certain themes, and in a few cases I had to fight with the publisher to get those warnings included. The publisher was concerned that we (me and Reno) might lose some sales because of those warnings, but my greater concern was pissing off more readers for the lack of warning than we might lose due of them.
Now that we’ve more or less gone renegade (unless a 5-figure advance comes along, for which we would totally roll over with legs in the air), we are in control of our warnings. We warn for incest, non- or dubious consent, M/F on-screen sex, religious themes, underage-depending-on-your-jurisdiction-or-the-story’s-time-period, non-anthropomorphic shifted sex, and graphic violence (which we sincerely hope never reads as gratuitous).
What we don’t warn for is the obvious, given our usual character set. I can’t recall which publisher uses the “male/male sexual practices” warning, but isn’t that sort of, well . . . oh, I don’t know, implied for a gay story?
We also don’t warn for every sexual activity/position under the sun. Again, isn’t “oral and anal sex” in a story featuring male sexual partners to be expected?
Fascinating conversation.
–Jaye
Jaye
I have to compliment you even though I laughed at you and Reno rolling over with your legs in the air. 🙂
You were the author I mentioned in one of my comments who was quite open about telling me which of your books I might enjoy but more important, you identified those with themes that I would not like.
I think other authors could learn a lot from you and Reno in the way you market your books – always full disclosure.
I know what you mean about not warning about the obvious – Loose Id does that all the time, but I guess that’s because they have both M/M and M/F readers and don’t want any fire and brimstone in case a het reader pickes up an M/M book by mistake.
I thought you would be too busy writing to come by, but thanks for commenting. 🙂
This is part of why I read reviews. I, personally, have a really strong aversion to most violence. I can read it and don’t mind it where necessary, but I often skim through really graphic scenes—I’m a wuss, I have a weak stomach, I don’t know. 🙂
If the violence is a key part of the plot, okay. (Despite not liking violence, I like a good military thriller. You put a few Green Berets in a dangerous situation, and, yeah, there’s going to be violence. Likewise, I’m a sucker for recovery stories, and sometimes there’s that scene where something completely unthinkable happens and the character spends the book trying to come to terms with it—a violent opening to that novel would be appropriate.) BDSM is not really my thing, but I’ve read a few BDSM romances that were compelling and beautifully written. But gratuitous violence is something I can’t really stomach, so if I read a review that said, “This book is really violent,” I’m probably not buying that book. (Sexual violence is particularly difficult for me to read, so if a review is like, “This is about a character who gets raped,” I think twice about picking it up, no matter how good the review. But that’s my prerogative as a reader. And that’s my own problem, so I wouldn’t resume to tell anyone else what to read or write.)
As for labels, I don’t know. I think genre labels are useful, particularly for publishers that put out a wide range of different kinds of books, so at least you know: okay, this book is a romance, it’s m/m, it has BDSM. If a book has violent content, that should be made clear in the blurb so the reader can make an informed decision about that.
And I do think “romance” means that the main thrust of a book is a love story plot. I like plenty of books that don’t have romance plots, so this isn’t a dig at them, it’s just that if I’m picking up a romance, I want a love story. (I’m also of the “romances require a HEA/HFN” camp, but that’s another debate. :))
Hi Kate
I think Amber Allure has the best labels and I usually check them out when I want to request a book. Samhain sometimes does have good labels although theirs are mostly ‘fun’, but the others – not so much. If it’s a “Romance” publisher like Dreamspinner or Noble, I expect their books to be romances so when they are not I’m a bit taken aback. (Those are just examples BTW)
I have a high tolerance for violence because I read a lot of serial murders or murder mysteries, but rape is not something I want to read about and child rape is definitely NOT on my list of books that I would buy, even if somewhere there is redemption of someone.
I understand about the HEA/HFN so when books don’t have either, but there is definitely a love connection, I call those love stories. 🙂
My first thought after reading your post was, yes! label, by all means, let readers be informed about the content so they can make their own decision about whether to read a book or not. But then I thought of when I read the Deviations series for the first time, which was also the first actual BDSM I read, and how disturbed I was by some of it. I kept with the story, because it was done so well, and I am so happy I did, they are now some of my favorites. I tend to not read warnings, I like my comfort zone to be challenged and/or make up my own mind. Would I have not started one of the best series out there if I had had detailed knowledge of the kind of content? Maybe. Wouldn’t that have been a shame.
Anyway, difficult decision. And you are talking about things that are much more extreme, and maybe less tastefully done than my example.
On the whole, I am in favor of labelling well, I guess. Leave it up to the reader whether they want to know what to expect.
That said, I have fortunately not come across much disturbing content, maybe because I am mostly working through my TBR pile in stead of keeping up with the newest developments in the genre.
Patricia
Hi Patricia
I read the Deviations series and love it. The only book in the series I haven’t read to date is the last one. But the point is, when I review the rest of the books I will definitely warn about content that other readers might find offensive e.g. the ‘cage’ scene. Yes there’s no doubt it’s a wonderful series but other readers might not think so.
There is a recent book that caused quite a debate and there are two camps – one that love the book and another that is grossed out because of the graphic rapes and beatings of one of the protagonists. The publisher did have a warning about “forced anal and oral intercourse” but according to some readers the violence was extremely graphic and disturbing and grossed out even those who are accustomed to a pretty high level of violence in M/M books.
I think labels are good PR on the part of the publishers and authors, and they will gain more customers than they will lose.
The quote you’ve put in this post about the Golden Shower scenes came from one of my reviews and whilst I hadn’t liked reading about that, the book itself was deeply romantic and definitely would be classed as a romance novel. The publisher is Fanny Press who describes itself as a publisher of ‘erotic fiction’ not romance – and erotica can encompass a whole load of what some readers might consider unsavoury practices – and yet I still felt this particular book was romantic and indeed it was one of my top picks on this site for 2010.
If readers are really concerned about accidentally reading something not to their taste then perhaps they should stick to the more mainstream m/m publishers who tend to have a comprehensive labelling system, or who don’t publish books containing things like ‘water play’ scenes, rather than some of the smaller epubs who might cater for a different, and darker, brand of romance. Failing that, reviews will often warn readers about any potential flashpoints.
Hi Jen
If I had read that scene I would have set the book aside even though I have a pretty high tolerance for most kinks, but golden showers is not one of them; rape is another one I hate. But other readers might not find these themes offensive. That’s my point.
What is considered romance is up for debate as a recent book from another “Romance” publisher, Noble Romance, demonstrated; and Noble is considered a pretty mainstream publisher.
What emerged on Sunday is that readers want to know what to expect in M/M books if there’s going to be kink in these books. It should be the job of the authors and publishers to provide adequate labels.
Not all large M/M publishers have a comprehensive labelling system, and since buyers can’t return ebooks they have to guess at the content unless they are prepared to wait for a review of the books. With the number of books that are released every week, a significant proportion of these books will never be reviewed because there just aren’t enough reviewers, so it’s buyer beware.
I read BDSM, but not all kinks appeal to me, in the same way that I read ‘romance’ but not all genres appeal to me. While I appreciate everyone has different lifestyles, I don’t want to read about themes such as humiliation, extreme M/s, torture. But that’s not just an M/M thing – I wouldn’t want to read about these themes in an M/F book either.
Some authors write different series with different ‘strengths’ of BDSM, and label them clearly, so I can avoid books from series that are not my thing. Reviews and blurbs are very helpful with this. Unfortunately, I’ve stopped buying other authors, as I just can’t predict what I’m going to get.
On the HEA subject – again M/M or M/F, it makes no difference. Yes, I have to have one and I don’t buy books without one as I know I won’t enjoy them as much. If it’s 1, 2, 3 books into the series I will wait and buy them all at once. Whether that’s what ‘romance’ is, I honestly wouldn’t like to say in general, but that’s what works for me.
Hi P, thanks for commenting.
I absolutely agree. I can take some BDSM and not others, and the more heavy it is, the less I am going to want to read about it. The extremes turn me off as I have a sensitive nature, and no, I wouldn’t want to read them in m/f either. Because of this, I appreciate warnings, but also can understand where other readers are coming from when they say they don’t like them at all.
“We readers expect labels in m/m, maybe because the tradition started with fanfic.”
I think that’s a great point that Val made. I’ve found labels useful in finding books for whatever my particular interest is at the time, but it has also kind of ruined books for me. A recent book I read had a rape scene it, yes it was labelled with that warning. And I spent the entire time reading the book worried about it instead of following the flow of the book. I’m pretty sure if the label wasn’t there it would have doubly horrified me when I got to that point, but then I wondered if the build-up the author was intending was ruined because I already knew about the big scene.
I compare this with a mainstream fantasy trilogy I read which included rape. There is no labelling there. I don’t expect sex scenes, I don’t expect graphic rape. And that’s what I got with no warning. It was part of the story the author wanted to tell. At no point did I feel that the author should have warned me about it, or that there should have been a label on it. The impact of not knowing it was going to happen, and following the character through to her sense of peace was incredibly moving for me.
I agree that labelling can be a marketing technique. But, that should be at the author’s discretion. If it’s the readers asking for it, at what point does it become too much? I don’t like books where the romantic couple has children, especially if it’s erotica. I don’t want to think about little Bobby in the next room. I’ve read reviews where the reviewer is turned off by smoking/drinking/swearing. Should that be labelled too? And there’s that bareback issue too. How many personal scruples can you cater to before you’re trying to wrap the intended adult audience with cotton wool?
Well from my experience if we were talking Inspirational Romance then yes “smoking/drinking/swearing” would be plainly labeled because the audience would expect to be told since the audience is buying Inspirational Romance with a strong religious theme.
All these publishers and writers are catering to a romance audience and I would think they would understand what romance is in the first place before promoting themselves as publishing and writing it.
But obviously there is a disconnect here with people who probably should be writing Gay Fiction and not Gay Romance.
@Teddypib But obviously there is a disconnect here with people who probably should be writing Gay Fiction and not Gay Romance.
But where is that line drawn?
As with every genre with the writer and publisher knowing what it is they are selling or at least spending the time to research their craft.
Romance is a genre with rules like those evident in the most prominent publisher Harlequin and the same is true for Mystery or Sci-fi/Fantasy you just have to look.
Oh, I agree with you on the difference between gay fiction and gay romance. And that a lot of what I find from supposed erotica/romance publishers for me fit neither the erotica or romance genre.
It’s the idea of labelling within those genres (sexual acts/preferences and “squicky” things) to protect the delicate senses of the readers that smacks of the kowtowing that is so prevalent with North American society these days. You can’t even let a little kid play in the playground without a million and one warnings on the dangers held therein.
Interesting point, SLAng. I can see that. I guess the question is how do we make everyone happy. Ally suggested having the warning as essentially hidden until the reader makes the decision to view them or not.
Wave, I’m glad you made this post!It’s scary to read there are even darker books out there than what I came across.
Personally, I think BDSM fall into a category of its own. It’s hard to judge for people what is acceptable for them and what not. However, rape should never be acceptable even in BDSM. But BDSM is a hard genre to label.
It would be hard to label or rate every book that is released on the level of violence it contains. However, I do think books that contain extreme levels of violence or torture, but especially detailed rape scene’s should contain a warning label.
The level of violence and rape is something that I saw in fanfiction A LOT. And I’m thinking it’s bleeding over to epublishing more and more. Especially those publishers that hardly check a manuscript. To me that is a disturbing development, because it means the quality is going even further down the drain. It’s not acceptable to just have an authors deep dark fantasies put into an e-book and published without having at the very least a decent story to go with it.
Part of me thinks that the two, the level of violence and rape and the quality of e-books are linked. And if there would be more quality control this wouldn’t be a big a problem as it is becoming.
I’m no wuss or a prude by any means. I admit that I enjoy a good dub-con story, just so long as it good (and yes, I know my definition of what makes a good story is different from someone else’s) but there are limits. Rape, even in stories, is something I’ll never condone nor understand and it makes me wonder if authors know what they put people through.
Hi Larissa.
Word. Amber Allure is doing a good job at labelling, and the one that Wave uses is a good example.
But while you and I draw the line at rape (and for me, torture), there are others that are okay with it, especially within the confines of a great overall story. And taking it further, it seems that quite a few folks don’t want warnings as it could ruin the story for them. I guess the question is how we can make everyone happy.
Even after the discussion last week, I’m still of two minds on this. As an author, I would have no problem labeling my stuff, but I would be hesitant to join the cry to compel other authors to do it.
I hate it when major characters die. Hate it. If the writing is good enough and the characterization compelling, I’ll mourn a major character’s death like I actually knew them. I do kind of know them, because if it’s done just right, they become real people.
Remember–very vaguely, probably–when we talked about As Meat Loves Salt? That book horrified me. I mean actual white-in-the-face, eyes-bulging, hyperventilating horrified. Now, to be fair, that one was mostly because I had someone I loved very much who was nearly beaten to death by a group of gay-bashers once, so yeah, it affected me on a very personal level. But I couldn’t blame my reaction on the author, or the publisher, or anyone else who didn’t warn me that was going to happen. And in truth, I’ve never actually been sorry I read it. It was an astonishing book, for many reasons, most of them good ones, and it affected me very deeply–and yet, if someone had warned me about that one scene, I wouldn’t have read it. And as much as I love/hate the book, I’m glad I had the experience of reading it.
I’m not arguing any of your points, because, like I said, I don’t disagree and I wouldn’t have a problem applying such ‘restrictions’ to my own blurbs and whatnot. And I’m not sure I can fully understand your position, because it’s unique and I’m not in it–people aren’t constantly waving their books at me and asking me to read/review them.
I’m not sure you’re ever going to get a genre/industry-wide consensus on this, but why not make it a requirement for books people want the site to review? ‘If you want us to review it, warn us about anything in it we might want to be warned about.’ I mean, it’s your site, you’re doing pretty much everyone a favor, so it doesn’t seem like a lot to ask. And if someone thinks it is, you just don’t review that someone’s work.
Good evening Carole. You make interesting points and it makes me wonder if a really, super-great book that contained stuff that made me really uncomfortable would be worth it. Maybe, but I’d like to know before diving in that there would be extreme X in it or that it is a sub-genre (such as heavy BDSM or horror). I think about my review for Dead of Night, which scared the bejeezus out of me and took me out of my comfort zone, but was really well-written. The horror and terror were absolutely integral to the plot, and in the end I was happy I read it. And I knew going in that’s what I would be getting. Other folks talk about Talker and Talker’s Redemption, which contain rape, but are great books and the rape is very important to the storyline.
I am not sure what the answer is as there as many people here who don’t want warnings as those who do.
Regarding getting books for review, oftentimes we get only blurbs sent from publishers, so there are instances where there is a warning on the pub’s website, but not in what is sent to us. Your idea may be a good one.
… it makes me wonder if a really, super-great book that contained stuff that made me really uncomfortable would be worth it. Maybe, but I’d like to know before diving in…
Weirdly, so would I. I mean, you’re talking to the person who reads the last five pages of a book to see who I should avoid getting attached to, so yeah, I get that. And I bet I have missed out on some really great experiences by curbing what I’ll venture into. But, just like your dilemma here, there is no one-size-fits-all. There are benfits and consequences to either choice.
Like I said–just remember that you guys do this as a service that benefits both readers and authors. No request is too unreasonable. 😉
Oh, oh ok it is off topic in this thread, so I profoundly apologize for it, but I just have to say it – LOVED “Aisling” LOVED LOVED LOVED. Yeah, I hope I adequately expressed how much I loved it 🙂
Oh and to make it a kinda sorta on topic, so does it mean that you will not kill Will or Dailin? 😉 Please please please don’t. Um, squeeing fan girl dissappears, yes you made me your squeeing fan girl after one book. Hides.
I am so glad you showed up here, because I saw your review on Amazon and wanted very much to thank you. I’m so very, very pleased you liked the story so much, and it was really generous of you to take the time to tell others. Thank you very much.
To answer your question, one of the requirements of that particular publisher is that any story submitted must have a happy ending. And considering how much I hate major character death, I think you’re safe. 😉
YES!!! Now I will be waiting much more patiently till the other two books will come out. Thank you! Oh and I think every reader knows the desire to share the book they love with anybody under the moon, and I want to share this one with everybody for sure 🙂 It is nothing unusual, just the feeling every book lover knows I am sure. I bought it for my kindle and got the paperback (and I buy VERY few books these days in paperbacks) and am planning on gifting it too.
Oh that reminds me. Now hides for sure and apologises for Squeeing again.
My goodness, you’re going to get me all verklempt. You’re very sweet, Sirius, and I appreciate it so much. 🙂 Thank you.
I’m very hesitant about reading books with dark themes, much as I’m very hesitant about watching films with them. I expect the films to give me an age category warning along with some more detail about why (e.g., graphic scenes of torture), and I would appreciate at least the same level of consideration from publishers. We’re not talking about censorship, merely about ensuring people don’t end up wasting their money on things they find abhorrent and disturbing.
I only read BDSM stories if I’ve read several reviews that let me know it is overall a romance and positive. Likewise, I don’t want to read gratuitous rape scenes, although if rape is an important part of a storyline and the resulting mental and physical trauma is dealt with, then I don’t have a problem with reading it (I’m thinking of Amy Lane’s Talker and Talker’s Redemption as being an excellent example of how this storyline can work).
There does seem to be a general trend toward “torture porn” in cinema and it doesn’t surprise me to discover that it is happening in fiction too. I don’t want to read it though. Like most romance readers, I want to read things that affirm my faith in love and humanity, not stories that drag my imagination through the very worst that people can do to each other.
Josephine
There are many readers like you who would benefit from such warnings so that you don’t unwittingly buy a book with content you don’t want. Everyone’s tolerance is different and although I can stomach a lot of violence I hate rape scenes in books.
If readers and authors can get publishers to understand the difference between censorship and content warning for the benefit of their customers, I think this would work. But the warnings should be clear so that there is no misunderstanding.
I see a few issues here, and hopefully I’ll be able to keep this organized. 🙂
First, while there are a lot of readers who actively prefer to have a story thoroughly “warned” in advance, there are others (like me, when I’m wearing my reader hat, and I’m not the only one by a long shot) who just as actively prefer not to have those warnings right there on the book’s promo/buy page. I consider specific warnings for particular sexual activities and plot devices to be spoilery and annoying, and I hate seeing them. So we have two groups of readers who want mutually exlusive data sets when they’re browsing books.
In the interests of providing everyone with the info they want, I’d support having some review sites give thorough lists of warning keywords, so long as there are others which don’t. That way, readers can sort themselves out, settling down at favorite review sites based in part on whether or not they want to see a list of all the sexual practices and half the plot devices used before they buy a book. For that matter, a site that was just a database — author, title, list of warnings — would work too. People who want that info could go there and people who don’t could stay away.
As a writer, I’d be happy to provide lists of warnings for my own fiction for everything down to burnt food and bad fashion sense to either that kind of a database site or a review site that lists warnings, or to have my publisher do so. Review sites could state whether they want thorough warning lists or not; there are probably some reviewers out there who’d rather not be spoiled either.
Working with currently available resources (as opposed to finding someone to program/host/maintain a huge database site) there are already folks who are pretty detailed in how they shelve their fiction on Goodreads. If some significant number of people started using shelves for torture and elimination play and rape and child rape and whatever all else anyone they’ve ever heard of might want to be warned for, then folks who want to know in advance could look a book up on Goodreads and check the list of shelves it’s on. If enough people participated, there’d be a pretty thorough warnings database right there. At the same time, though, the list of shelves a book is on is off to the side on the book’s page, out of the way, and the system only shows the top however many shelves anyway; you have to click on a link to get the full list. People who want to see could do that, and people who don’t could avoid it.
The idea, however it’s handled, is to let everyone have what they want. It’s not accurate to say that everyone wants a list of warnings on every m/m book, or even that some people want it and the rest don’t care.
Second, properly labelling a book with a subgenre (I’m thinking of m/m as a genre here, since our chunk of romance is so self-contained) is definitely an issue. A book that’s BDSM should be labelled that way; that’s very general and not at all spoilery. A book that’s an m/m thriller should be labelled that way; that’d give a big hint that there might be scary violence in it, without giving enough detail to be spoilery.
And on a slight tangent, it’d be nice if the vendor sites could get with the labelling program too. It’s frustrating how many of them will throw every m/m book into the “erotica” bin (including YA m/m with no sex at all) leading readers to expect things that might not be there. My novel, which has all of 1.5 sex scenes, and nothing (except for the two guys part) that you won’t find in a romance bought at the supermarket, is labelled “erotica” by more than one of the third party vendors, and I always wonder how many of their customers buy it expecting a focus on sex and are then disappointed. :/ Accurate labelling needs to go both ways; too radical a label is just as bad as too vanilla.
Third — there’s definitely room for improvement in summary writing, I agree. I was reading one just the other day that said something along the lines of, “Fear. Twilight. Joe Protag’s life is about to change forever. Follow him on his journey.” [blinkblink] Umm, what’s the book about? Anyone…? :/ Atmosphere at the expense of info about the story is always a bad move IMO. That book could be about pretty much anything, but no one will know until (and unless) they buy it and read it. Which I for one won’t do, because if that publisher or writer is that bad at writing summaries, I don’t trust them to choose/write actual fiction without a heck of a recommendation from some third party I know and respect.
A well written summary can give the reader plenty of clues about what sort of book this is without giving everything away. A lot of publishers need work in this area, no argument.
Fourth — one thing I’ve noticed is that there are a lot of books published in m/m that are not romances by strict genre definition. A romance is a story where two or more people overcome obstacles in order to form a stable romantic relationship. That’s why, on the more rule-bound het side, the only way you can have a series about the same characters is if the writer comes up with some reason (usually a really dumb, the-characters-are-being-stupid-again excuse) for them to break up at the beginning of the second (third, fourth…) book, so they can rebuild their relationship by the end. If the relationship isn’t in serious, believable peril during the course of the story, and creating/fixing it isn’t the main plotline, then it’s not technically a romance. The m/m side publishes a lot of books which aren’t technically romances.
(This is why we see so many series books on the mainstream het side where a group of siblings or friends or whatever each has their romance one at a time, and earlier characters get cameos in later books. A lot of readers love seeing their favorite characters again, but mainstream het won’t let the writers give them a second book of their own unless the characters’ relationship breaks down in the first chapter. Genre definitions won’t let them spread a romance over several books, or make the first book a romance and then write mysteries or something about the happy couple for the next six books, because a romance publisher only publishes romance. :/ It’s a case of marketing categories hamstringing the writers, but it’s all we have to work with on the New York side right now.)
Personally, I’m okay with m/m having more flexibility. I like that a writer can, frex., write a series of mysteries or adventure books, and have the romance play out over some number of books. Since it’s not the main plotline of any one book, none of those books is technically a romance, but there is a romantic subplot going on over the course of the series.
Josh Lanyon does this brilliantly. Some mystery writers on the mainstream side do it too, but there still isn’t the market opportunity for any significant number of GLBT main characters over in the mainstream mystery genre, much less GLBT characters who are actively shown to be in a romantic/sexual relationship, and I’m happy to see the m/m romance genre give mystery series writers like Josh a home.
Abigail Roux and Madeleine Urban have something similar going on with their Cut & Run series; book three just came out and only one of the characters has said “I love you” so far. That wouldn’t fly on the het romance side, and again, they’d probably have a problem finding an action/adventure publisher willing to take a series with two male leads in a relationship. They’re a great fit here in m/m romance, though, despite the fact that the individual books aren’t technically romances. They’re incredibly romantIC, and that’s good enough for us, which is one of the reasons I love m/m.
Angie
Angie
You have some good ideas around labelling but I suspect that many of them would be too complex to implement. For example not everyone is a member of Goodreads and the system you describe would be extremely complicated for someone who is just looking for information about a single book. I myself didn’t join Goodreads because I couldn’t face cataloguing my books – too many books and no time.
I think publishers are doing a good job generally when they define a book as romantic fiction, mystery, horror, etc. but where they get into trouble is with the “romance” designation with books that are definitely not romance, and I have indicated why I think that is.
One major issue is correct labelling of books. A few publishers do it well, but many others just pay lip service to the idea, and the customers end up with the short end of the stick.
I know that this problem won’t be solved overnight but it just seems that a very simple solution would be accurate content descriptions of the books.
Thank you for commenting Angie. You have some excellent suggestions.
I don’t know if labeling is the answer either. What restrictions would the publishing houses use then? Too scary to think about. As a reviewer for all types romance (yes, it has to have a HEA), most blurbs barely touch the surface of what lies beneath. I have found romance readers, in general, do want to know what is in the book. What types, act, and levels of violence, sex, what have you. And are very appreciative when that information is included in my reviews; without giving away too many spoilers.
BTW, this “extreme” isn’t limited to M/M. I’m finding it creeping into more mainstream romance also.
Cynthia
I use sites like Amber Allure which does a good job, not perfect, but good and here’s a typical advisory
Genres: Gay / Paranormal / Psychic Phenomena / Suspense / Thriller / BDSM /
Advisory: This book contains hardcore bondage and punishment, torture, and nonconsensual sex. May not be suitable for the more sensitive reader.
I think that’s pretty explicit. This publisher obviously understands that this is not censorship but marketing. Warnings like this make a reviewer’s job that much easier.
I hate it when major characters die. Hate it. If the writing is good enough and the characterization compelling, I’ll mourn a major character’s death like I actually knew them. I do kind of know them, because if it’s done just right, they become real people.
Ha! I agree! I just finished reading 6 (!) very long books in a fantasy serie by Robin Hobb and after all this investment she kills off the 2 most interesting characters in last pages of book 6. It’s going to take a lot to get me reading another book of hers…
Speaking as a reader, I am not fond of labels beyond “romance” or “sci-fi” or “horror” and such. And the book damn well better fit the label, too. If I buy a romance, it better be a romance. If I buy a horror book (and I have LOTS of horror on my shelves *g*), it better fucking well be scary! I don’t like specific labels because, as someone else has already pointed out, as a reader I consider it too spoiler-y. I want to take the intended journey, whatever it is. And this is coming from a person who has literally thrown books across the room when I’ve come across things I can’t read. Like one book in which a crazy woman held a baby’s face to a hot stove. OMG. I still have nightmares about that. It was in the first chapter. I wall-banged the damn book and never finished it. OTOH, Yeah, there are books I never would have read if they’d had specific content warnings, and I would have missed out.
As an author, I don’t have any problem with labeling of my work. Of course compared to some of the stuff I’m hearing here I’m pretty mild, really, but still. I know some warnings might be spoilerish, but if people want them it doesn’t bug me any. The real question is, how to satisfy both readers who want warnings and those who actively do not? Personally, I just try not to see them, but I guess it’s not always easy to do 🙂
You know you can always email me and ask if you have questions about any of my books, Wave!
There is a difference between formula romance and romantic fiction. For me, some of the most romantic stories I’ve ever read or seen had horribly tragic endings. For me, an HEA or HFN isn’t the deciding factor of the couple truly being in love.
Depends on the story and circumstances. Like real life, sometimes all ends well and sometimes not, and a tragic ending doesn’t mean there wasn’t a glorious romance involved.
Should this be warned for? For a lot people, probably, but sometimes I enjoy having my emotions challenged and surprised with a need for Kleenex.
A lot of hard questions here, and no easy and all-encompassing answers.
–Jaye
Absolutely there’s a difference. For instance, Brokeback Mountain is one of my favorite stories EVER. Ever ever. It’s an absolutely stunning story that still haunts me years after the first time I read it, and even after multiple repeat reads. And it’s definitely ROMANTIC. But I’d never call it a genre ROMANCE, and if it was labeled “romance” and I picked it up expecting a genre romance I’d be upset about the mislabeling even while I love and appreciate the story for what it is — an absolutely brilliant piece of romantic gay fiction.
Jaye
Just today I reviewed a wonderful book by Marie Sexton called One More Soldier that ended without a HEA, however it was definitely a love story and one of the most profound that I have read in a while. In these cases I call the books “love stories” not romances.
I did indicate in the review that the story ended tragically, hey it was the Vietnam war. 🙁
Like Ally mentioned – Brokeback Mountain is another wonderful love story which ended tragically but is not considered a romance.
Whenever I post about these issues Jaye it’s because I know there are many smart people around who might have great ideas and possible solutions. lol.
Hi Ally
This has been brewing for a while and it’s getting worse. I guess I’m asking authors and other readers to make suggestions about how to resolve the issue. I frequently email writers if I have a question, especially about M/f in M/M books when the blurb is very vague.
Many publishers already have content warnings but some of them are very vague so they are almost useless. The one below I think captures what’s in the book without giving out spoilers.
Genres: Gay / Paranormal / Psychic Phenomena / Suspense / Thriller / BDSM /
Advisory: This book contains hardcore bondage and punishment, torture, and nonconsensual sex. May not be suitable for the more sensitive reader.
I always email you with my silly questions 🙂 but other readers wouldn’t think of doing that.
Other than a few hot buttons such as child rape and rape in general, I have a pretty high tolerance for violence, but many other readers don’t. Reviewers act as their filters by warning them about ‘offensive’ content, but what happens when the reviewrs are grossed out and refuse to review the books? The readers are on their own if the publisher doesn’t have content warnings.
It is a tough situation about how to satisfy both camps. I’ve had books that I have refused to review and this will probably happen more often in the future. Right now many books are not reviewed because so many are being released every week and it will only get worse. If we also have to contend with content that reviewers find objectionable a few authors’ books will never get reviewed.
I wish that publishers and authors didn’t regard content warnings as censorship. It’s actually an excellent marketing tool because the people who like what they read will flock to buy the books, and the ones who don’t want to read them won’t get pissed off after they buy a book.
Oh I know readers aren’t going to email me, I just meant if you or your reviewers want to know anything you can always ask me 🙂
Like I said, as an author I have no problem with whatever labels need to put on my books, as long as they’re appropriate to the work. As a reader, I just don’t like them. Maybe there could be a “warnings” link or something on the pub’s websites so you could click on it to read the warnings if you want to? Do I get money if everybody starts using that?
I agree that this is a very sensitive area and one I have fallen foul of, both as a reader and as a writer. As a writer, I was slaughtered by the fanfic version of The Night Porter for initially not indicating that it didn’t have a HEA. At least with Dreamspinner the Bittersweet Dreams gives it an indication.
I am open to some kink but there are other things that really disturb me, like MPREG (just no!) and underage sex. It’s not that it doesn’t happen. I just don’t want to read it.
I think warning is an important responsibility that publishers should take on. There is no excuse these days for not warning. I don’t need exact details, just BDSM/horror/child abuse etc.
As a point of interest I was a lot less worried about labels until I read a story with graphic child necrophilia.
Hi Sue
Exactly my point.
You have also listed a number of hot buttons for other readers such as underage sex – in England the age of consent is 16 – what happens if a book is written for a UK audience but sold in the US? 🙁
To be fair, some publishers do take their responsibility seriously such as the content warning I posted in my response to Ally, but many of them give readers a bit of fluff that looks like the blurbs.
Age of consent in some US states (including mine) is 16.
The over-18/barely legal is a porn convention that fan and erotica writers adopted in the last 20 years.
Fascinating discussion.
Re: labelling – On the one hand, I do believe that it is something that authors AND publishers should work together on to be sure that readers are made aware that the book contains themes they may dis/like, but on the other… how much is too much?
For example, there have been a few cases where the blurb of a book has really intrigued only for me to take a quick glance at the labels and think to myself ‘well, no point in wanting to read this one anymore’. Unfortunately the labelling had the effect of acting as spoliers and, whether intended or not, when read in conjunction with the blurb it had basically answered all the questions raised there.
Re: the ‘extremes’ in m/m – I’ve been reading m/m for – Wave, help me out here 🙂 – 3 – 4 years now, I think, and I am really very excited about the changes to the genre I’ve seen, especially in the last 12 months.
I see the changes – and, yes, the extremes – as natural progression in the m/m genre as it continues to grow with new authors being published all the time and long time authors exploring different sub-genres and themes within m/m.
Perhaps the issue is not so much about the warning labels or the so-called extremes, but rather the need for publishers to stop or re-look at marketing all of their m/m as romance or as ‘gay’. To treat m/m in the way they treat m/f by recognising and thus categorising the various subgenres within the overarching m/m fiction genre.
Wouldn’t this be a relatively simple way of dealing with some of the issues raised here? I’ll be interested to hear what others think.
Hi Kris
Some of the publishers are responsible and do post content warnings but a few of them should just not bother because the warnings are only paying lip service. If there is child rape in a book I think they should say so outright. We don’t get a lot of golden showers in M/M, but if a book contains this kink it should state so explicitly as a content warning.
They do indicate if a book is horror or mystery etc. Unfortunately many authors want their books to be classified as “romances” because those books are the biggest sellers, so all of a sudden in a book that’s clearly not a romance there will be a couple of chapters with the victim falling in love with his rapist and a manufactured HEA. Voila – instant “romance”. When a romance reader buys the book she is pissed because it is not a romance.
I, too, am excited at the changes that have occurred over the last 8 years in M/M but not all of these changes are positive – books that are not even edited when released – or barely edited – because publishers can’t keep up with the demand. Other standards are lowered, and many books that should never have seen the light of day are published. A lot of these problems are growing pains for a new sub genre with limited professional resources, and everyone is busy trying to meet the deadline for next week’s releases.
I think some of this problem of ‘gross’ content with no warnings are new authors trying different things which is always good, but they should be conscious that not everyone will like their new daring theme. The other issue is that many authors are trying to outdo each other to see how far they can go. This is all fine but give us a heads up with a few accurate warnings.
Some publishers understate what’s in the books because they feel that it would reduce sales. I guess they don’t realize that these warnings could also have a positive effect by directing readers who love those kinks to those books, and the warnings would also ensure that people who don’t want to read about the kinks wouldn’t buy the books and then get mad because they didn’t get what they paid for. Let’s have warnings for “extreme” content not something silly like a label on an M/M book “this book contains anal sex” 🙁
Wave, this is a great post on the topic. I think the m/m genre has exploded and it probably will continue to grow. It’s unfair for the readers who, like me, are willing to try all publishers but then realize the publishers aren’t upfront and honest with the labels. It’s not that difficult to label something as non/dub consensual elements, violence, extreme bdsm, etc, etc. Getting burned once is more than enough for me to stay away from not just that author, but probably that entire publishing house.
I tend to ramble, so keeping it short – I am open to a lot of different categories as long as I’m in the right mind-frame – I only ask publishers and writers to label accordingly so that when and if I’m in the mood for a certain type of books, I can choose them by myself. I don’t particularly like being misled, and to me, omission is deliberate.
Hi S
I think you hit the nail on the head. Being misled is a breach of trust between the publisher/author and the customer, and when the customer realizes that these omissiions are deliberate they walk away and never return.
Hmm,when I think about it, I think one of my absolutel no-no’s is dubious consent. Rape warning is not the same to me since a story like Talker can have that in the story line and be great. The forced relation doesn’t have to be part of the main romance. But when a publisher lists dubious consent then I KNOW that will be part of the romantic story-line and I never read those book, I know I’ll just hate them.
Yes, absolutely labeling is the way to go. I have read books with urine play and I had no problem with it when it came up but I was also well aware that it was coming.
It’s all about expectations. If we watch a trailer for a movie that makes the movie look like a light hearted romance and then we watch the movie and it’s a tearjerker…you’re going to get the same kind of outrage. The reason people get so much more upset over the m/m romance issue is that sex is more so in the mix than in a main stream movie.
But the issue is the same. Preparing (and informing!) the viewer/audience for what they are spending their money on and their time with.
As for labels spoiling content…*shrug* you can’t make everyone happy but I’d err on the side of caution. And listing an event is not the same as experiencing it as a reader.
Hi Sharvie
You are absolutely correct. Movies are classified so why not books. I don’t see this as an issue and I don’t understand why authors object to labelling.
Delurking to say, that Genre labels must always be honored. That means the publisher has to know that the Genre expectations are first. If a publisher is pushing a book as a Western, but the story is set in 1985 London, then that publisher has lost me as a customer, probably forever.
It is the same with Romances. There are way too many Romance readers that have set the definition of what a Romance is to blithely dismiss their expectations. A Courtship story with a HEA/HFN is the hard line definition for 99 percent of Romance readers. Break that definition in your “Romance” book, and those readers will no longer trust either the publisher or author.
Other subgenres have evolved under the Romance label over the years, and I think that M/M fiction needs to clue in. When I see Romantic Suspense on a book, I know what to expect. Paranormal gives me a very specific clue.
But, for a publisher to co-opt an existing genre label, and change the definition to suit themselves, or to sucker in an existing audience base, that is blatant fraud in my eyes. Lost customer again. How many customers can you afford to lose?
I agree, Teresa. Many readers rely on labels for picking their reading materials and when that fails, there are big problems. Blurbs may vary in what they tell readers, but labels need to be correct.
Very relevant topic, Wave, and of course people are all over the map with regards to this issue.
Speaking as a reader, I do want to know whether certain things are in stories. Golden showers (ewwww), graphic rape, hard-core BDSM. None of these make me a happy Tis. BDSM lite, I don’t have a problem with, so even if that snuck up on me in a story, I’d be fine with it.
Putting on my author hat, I think it’s safe to say that I don’t really write stories that have very squick-inducing elements. High angst sometimes, yes, but nothing that makes me shudder. Even so, who’s to say that my tolerance is the same as anyone else’s? Something that might seem perfectly fine to me might make a reader highly uncomfortable.
One of my publishers asks in their marketing form whether the author has any warnings they think apply to the book in question, and that’s nice, but even then it’s easy to fall into the trap of giving too much or too little information, or possible just wording it the wrong way.
For instance, my first book with them, I wrote the warnings on the form and it ended up being presented as: “This book contains scenes involving weapons and violence, and some instances of drug/alcohol abuse. There are also references to paedophilia, non-consensual sex between an adult and a minor, prison gang-rape, and murder.”
Technically, that was pretty much what I’d said, but some readers (and reviewers) put off reading it because the wording gave the impression that ALL those things occurred on-page. Later, some of them reconsidered and read the book, though I admit I did point out that “references to” was meant to imply that these things were mentioned at various points but not graphically and were never presented in a detailed fashion.
Honestly, it’s a difficult balance to strike. I do think that I’d rather have warnings, when needed, and if someone passed on buying a book I wrote because of the warnings (it’s hard to indicate just how severely the warnings are needed), at least they wouldn’t feel blindsided by reading something entirely unexpected.
I’d trust that other readers would still buy it and possibly be able to tell their friends who might be on the fence “Oh, the *insert squick here* isn’t graphic; you’d be fine reading this one.” (Or “it’s too intense for what you like, so you’re right to pass on this one.” Whichever.)
I don’t know that there’s a solution that would suit everyone, though I have to say I rather like Ally’s idea (I think it was Ally; if not, then I apologize to whoever actually said it for mis-ascribing their words). If there were a “warnings” link for each book on a publisher’s site so readers could decide whether they wanted warnings or not, that could work well.
Of course, that would take an awful lot of work, especially considering the backlists some epubs have.
~Tis
Hey Tis. I think you’re right in that one person’s squick is another’s pleasure, and that this is a really tough issue. Like you, I don’t/won’t read the things you list, but there are those who it doesn’t bother at all. I’m not sure there’s an answer, though Ally’s does seem to be a possibility. But like you said, it’s a lot of work to make something like that happen.
Not all shoes fit the same feet and not all stories with m/m protagonists or m/f protagonists are romance. If a publisher specializes in romance with hea/hfn then if they decide to publish something outside that spectrum it had better be noted. I read most every genre except horror (the only horror I read was The Stand by Steven King). If I want to read romance then I will select a romance. Do I think that the m/m books are changing – yes more sub genres are being added. Which is all fine and good but it should be noted in the blurb. I abhore extreme violence for violences sake- for the most part if it does not incrementally add to the story -character growth- I won’t finish it and I would be leery of the author. When I buy a book I am investing in the imagination of the author and am hoping for a good journey. Extremes should be noted somewhere in the blurb. Please
I am the same way, I read almost all the genres but horror and while I do not like detailed warnings, I definitely would like to be warned for extremes.
Somebody said that mainstream fiction (which I definitely read) does not have warnings, and to this I will say that I actually would not mind to see warnings for rape (or dub consent) and extreme violence. I understand a lot of readers are not like me and do not like spoilers, but they could be phrased broadly enough IMO.
Example, I am finally 🙂 reading Girl with the Dragon Tatoo and I WAS warned by somebody about the scene that people who have read it know about, and if I had not been warned I would have been sort of annoyed too.
Wave and I agree with you, Clovermax, that extremes should be listed somewhere. As we are seeing here, however, there are readers who feel that those warnings could be considered spoilers and ruin their reading experience. With such disparity, I am not sure what the answer is.
Ok, sorry if I will repeat something of what commenters already said, but yes, while I do not want authors to feel forced to provide very detailed spoilerish labelling, I definitely want some warnings for rape and extreme violence. Also since I am a firm believer that Romance should have happy or hopeful ending, I do not ask for warnings for character’s death no matter how much I hate for one of the guys in romance to die, but please, if it happens in the book, label of romance would annoy me. I occasionally read love stories with tragic ending, but please do not label them romance.
And also word of agreement that warnings like m/m sexual practices look annoying and discriminatory to me as well, I am buying gay romance, I get that we wil likely see guys having sex, really publishers I do.
Oh and if more detailed warnings are given, Wave I like Amber Allure ones as well.
Oh and also if you are labelling your books Romance (cough Dreamspinner cough), how about actually HAVING a love story in some of them?
Great post Wave as always 🙂
Thanks for commenting Sirius. I am not interested in ruining another reader’s voyage by including warnings that they would consider spoilers, but I also would be VERY unhappy to open a book that I was told was going to be a romance and have there be graphic rape and torture. And since ebooks can’t be returned unless defective, that means I am out of the money I paid for that book. I don’t know what the answer is since we are not all in agreement.
Oh for sure Lynn, personally I do not mind even mildly spoilerish warnings, but as you said I do not want to spoil other people’s journey. And I am so with you about being unhappy if I will read something I do not want to read without warning.
I know I said it several times that I do not want to read ” rape you till you love me” or “I will rape you and we will live happily ever after” no matter how good writing is, but really I cannot come up with the warning for that without being too spoilerish, so at the very least I certainly want a warning for rape. That is considering the fact that I do not mind rape in the story at all if it is not gratuitois and not happening between the main couple. But at least warn me that rape is happening and then I will proceed at my own risk.
I have read two well written books with the trope I hate. One book I was properly warned, so I steeled myself because friend whose tastes I trust told me that while violence and rapes are pretty bad, the writing is nevertheless excellent. And I totally agreed with her, I mean I still disliked the trope, but I certainly respected the book and thought that if this writer ever does the story without this theme, I would be thrilled to read it.
And every time I remember the second book, it makes me REALLY REALLY angry, not annoyed mind you, but REALLY angry. NO warning for multiple rapes ZERO, none. I see Josh Lanyon commented that angry reader can do more damage than the label and I totally agree with him. This publisher will never ever get a cent of my money, period. Although I am actually really proud of myself for recommending this book to the readers who I know would love the trope, and not holding it against the book. But they lost me as customer, that is a fact.
Oh and Lynn sorry about the book you described below and had to read.
But they however warn for m/m sexual practices. Um DOH publishers, really DOH.
I love book labels. The more the merrier. They are a great way to connect books with readers who will appreciate them.
I know I buy more from publishers who have clear extensive labeling. (hell… sometimes I’ll even do a keyword search for dub-con or sex in shifted form if I’m in the mood).
A lack of clear labeling not only results in people accidentally buying books they won’t like, it also keeps people who like fringe content from finding the books they actually want. 🙂
Agreed, Dianne. I am all for detailed labels and warnings for the reasons you mention, but as we are seeing here, not everyone feels that way.
Since mine is the first quote Wave listed in her post, I thought’s I’d repeat here what I said on Sunday for those who hadn’t read it:
I echo what others have said: there are some things that make a book a skip or DNF for me; authors have every right to pen whatever they want; there will always be an audience for those stories; and I want warnings when necessary.
This is pretty timely as I recently finished — barely, I had to force myself — a book for review. It’s part of a series I’m reviewing for this site — so an auto read, no further research needed — and admit I hadn’t been to the publisher’s site to even read the blurb before I dove in. Now, I did go after the fact and, in all fairness, there are sufficient warnings, it is NOT labeled as a romance (though there are romantic elements), and the excerpt gives a hint of what readers will find, but the previous book didn’t have this type of content and I simply didn’t expect it. Usually a series sticks with a theme, and even with some variation, doesn’t often introduce major sub-genre shifts partway through (i.e. you begin a sports-themed romance and it doesn’t throw in a were-ferret in book two). Call me hyper-sensitive, but I was shocked and frankly sickened by what I found — extreme BDSM and punishment, rape, torture and even death of a very minor character because of the aforementioned. These are definitely things on my no-no list and had I gone to the publisher’s site first, I would have kindly told Wave to go against our little rule about reviewers sticking with a series through to the end and find someone else to take it over. Talk about being out of my comfort zone; it gave me nightmares and I’d rather read a hundred Dead of Night-type scary ghost stories than what I found here. I now need to find a way to reasonably review this book unless one of the other guest reviewers is up for it. I’ll probably do the latter.
Since I finished it, I’ve, too, been thinking about trends and wonder if, like the menage craze of last year, extreme [fill in the blank] will be this year’s. There may be an audience for books like this one, but like menage, I won’t be included in that group.
Lynn
Thanks so much for your help with responding to the comments – I was able to get some sleep. 🙂 Also, I appreciate that you and another guest reviewer wrote me recently about specific books which made me get off my ass and write this post. I had been thinking about doing something since I also had some issues about what I saw as a new direction in M/M and the lack of accurate labels on books, but it took concerns expressed by you both for me to take action.
The response to this post has been overwhelming and I think I’ll write a few publishers to see what reaction I get from them. They may do absolutely nothing, but at least they will be aware of the concerns of a large segment of readers.
I’m running late and had to skip all but the first few comments. Sorry if I reiterate what has been said a dozen times already.
I’m strongly in favor of labeling — the labeling should be such that readers who don’t like any hint of spoilers, can avoid seeing them, but the labels should most certainly exist for those who want them.
Advising people to read reviews is not the answer since not everyone has time or inclination to scour the web before every book purchase.
As a reader I absolutely want spoilers. It’s not that I won’t read something dark or brutal (film noir is one of my favorites, for cryin’ out loud), but I have to be in the right mood.
As a writer, you’re darned right I want labels slapped on all my books, and I want the labels to be accurate. I’ve got stuff marked “mystery” where the mystery is no more than a backdrop and it galls the heck out of both readers and me.
Do I find the WARNING THIS BOOK IS GAY stuff offensive? Yes. I certainly do. It’s enough to label the book male male and erotic without special warnings that anal sex might be offensive to some. Ya think? ANY sex might be offensive to some. If you’re a publisher of erotic romance than you damn well better slap those warnings on everything — or nothing.
Will labels cost writers a certain amount of sales? Yes. Labeling A Vintage Affair cost me sales. Absolutely. I don’t care. I would much rather that, than readers being shocked and angry (which happened anyway because most people don’t read the warnings of favorite authors). A shocked and angry reader does a lot more damage by word of mouth than does a label on a book.
A reader can choose not to look at the label or the warning, but if the label or warning is not there, the reader who wants to know what to expect has no recourse except to postpone buying the book.
As a writer I do not want readers to postpone buying my books. I want them to be able to make informed buying choices and to love every book of mine they buy — not feel disappointed and cheated.
Also labels are a selling point. The stuff that disgusts some of us clearly appeals to others. Those others buy those books — or those books wouldn’t continue to be published. So clearly labeling allows the reader with a taste for fetish and kink to find what they want without having to sift through a lot of you’ve-shocked-Aunt- Martha reviews (I see myself as an easily shocked Aunt Martha, so that’s not a slap). 😉
Basically, years of being a corporate overlord taught me that the best marketing is accurate marketing, and part of how that happens is clearly communicating what your product is to a target audience.
Great post, Wave.
Thanks for endorsing what it seems that a large contingent of M/M readers want – accurate labels. There’s nothing like reading the publisher’s wimpy labels, that tell me absolutely nothing, to put me off a book. I think the labels should start with the authors who know their books better than the publisher, and who can suggest for every novel they write some sort of label, even if it’s only “paranormal.” I have bought many books that start out as “contemporary” and end up as both that and paranormal. No kidding!
Would accurate labels lose some writers a few fans? It might, but it will also gain those writers a lot of respect and a few more fans.
As you said, there’s a kink for everyone and what grosses me out may be exactly the reason someone else loves a particular book.
We’re all adults and know when we buy an M/M book that there’s anal and oral sex and it’s inappropriate, unnecessary, and overkill to include this particular warning on M/M books. Who DOESN’T know that the protagonists in M/M books don’t have oral and anal sex? This is so stupid.
I happen to know something about marketing and targeting your product to a particular group makes more sense than spitting in the wind and hope it falls on a potential client. (Well, not the spit but you know what I mean). 🙂 Many publishers need help with their marketing (no, I’m not offering to help) and as someone who loves this genre and wants it to become more professional rather than being perceived as yet another fly by night operation in someone’s basement, there is a need for the epublishing industry, which is now big bucks for the publishers, to develop some consistent practices, and one of them is to label their products accurately.
Movies are rated – why not erotic books?
Hey thanks for compliment J. The roses are in the mail. 🙂
Heh Wave, I think I may know one of the books you mentioned that started as contemporary and become erm something not. Not that this one offended me, but it certainly caused me to sit there staring on the page and not believing what was happening, it also caused me to reread that page several times, to make sure author was not pulling my leg.
Oh. I know another one which suddenly became paranormal on me and if I knew I would have probably not bought that one, so out of place paranormal part felt in that one to me.
Lol. I’m sure I know both books. I think I reviewed a couple of them … but there’s more. lol.
The things that M/M readers experience that I’m sure readers of other genres do not have the pleasure. 🙂
So true, lol, let’s also not forget the book (s) that is being a nice sweet contemporary and somewhere around 3/4 of its length decides that it wants to be fantasy lol. Again those are probably not the best examples for me of why I want the books to be properly labeled, since book that is being contemporary and then switches gears and wants to be fantasy is not offensive to me, except in a sense that I consider it poor writing. However if a reader picks up contemporary and does not like fantasy, I would imagine them not being happy, same as I was very very not happy at the book that threw multiple rapes at me with no warnings whatsoever.