Sure, it’s a deal breaker for some marital partners, but is it a deal-breaker for those who read m/m romance? Are there situations or storylines where the act of cheating on a spouse, or even entertaining
such thoughts, can be acceptable, even–dare I say it?–interesting and compelling?
I’ve been thinking about this lately because I recently got a note from a reader who had just read my novel Tricks an opposites-attract tale of a nerdish thirty-something who falls for a hot male stripper and the twisted path their love takes, which includes a chance at a kind of infidelity. This “chance” and I don’t want spoil the plot by posting details here, is a major turning point in the plot, but also in my two main characters’ relationship.
The reader said: “Women for the most part expect commitment and want to see it in their romances regardless of the characters’ sexuality….I liked that you had two totally different characters, both with flaws, both with enough redeeming features to make you root for them. I struggled to understand why Arliss, having come from an abusive background, would view being involved with porn as his ‘dream’. While this is a different perspective and wonderful plot to work with, part of me put on the brakes…”
Now, I understand where this reader was coming from, and why she wanted to “put on the brakes” when Arliss, one half of my loving couple, wanted to do a porn movie.
What I don’t understand, though, is what she would have wanted instead. The conflict in the story, the threat of infidelity, made for dramatic tension. It forced the characters to take an emotional journey, coming out stronger on the other side. It tested their bond.
And this is why I think that infidelity can make for wonderful, fertile grounds for exploring romantic relationships in fiction. People are tempted and some succumb to it. That’s real life.
I know some readers might say they read to escape real life. They want their romance to always come with a happy ending. They want their love interests in those books to always remain faithful to one another…and in many instances do not even want that fidelity tested.
For me, I like reading and writing about people who are real, people with flaws, people who don’t always do the right thing. I like reading and writing about characters who struggle with their choices and sometimes do the wrong thing, in spite of their best intentions. I like characters who, like real people, do or say stupid things, especially if they learn something from it.
I guess my bottom line is that infidelity has a place in romantic fiction. It’s a great way to test characters’ commitment to one another. It’s a way to see if the couple in question is truly meant for the other. I believe it can be handled in a compelling, honest way that can still be romantic.
Getting back to Tricks, I will say that the specter of infidelity does test the relationship, but it also does not win out in the end. In the end, I think our couple is stronger for having weathered the storm. Personally, I never lost my sympathy for Arliss, my main character, because he wanted to do something that went against the grain of conventional relationships. I actually admire someone who goes through conflict, turmoil, and upheaval and comes down more enlightened on the other side. And in this case, his enlightenment led to a new sense of commitment to his partner.
But we would never have seen that if I hadn’t, as a storyteller, tested the waters of fidelity and temptation.
What do you think? How do you feel about romantic characters being unfaithful? Can you forgive them? Can you forgive them, maybe, for lusting only in their hearts for another?
I’ll be curious to hear your thoughts…
********* **************** **********
Rick R. Reed is the author of dozens of published novels, novellas, and short stories. He is a two-time EPIC eBook Award winner. His work has caught the attention of Unzipped magazine, “The Stephen King of gay horror,”; Lambda Literary, “A writer that doesn’t disappoint,”; and Dark Scribe magazine, “an established brand – perhaps the most reliable contemporary author for thrillers that cross over between the gay fiction market and speculative fiction.” He lives in Seattle.
Rick has generously donated a PDF copy of Tricks to a random blogger who comments on this post.
Visit Rick on the web at: www.rickrreed.com
or at his blog at http://rickrreedreality.blogspot.com
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Hi Rick. This was a great post. I cannot give you the statistics of course, but absolutely for some women readers with whom I chatted online infidelity of *any* sorts is a topic they do not want to see in m/m romance. Personally I want to see it for the reasons you described (realistic, etc). So yes, sure I know readers who would say that as long as cheating is involved they will not read a story. Although I also know women readers who will read about any well written plot twist. I do understand the idea of reading to escape though. I consider myself a reader who will read about “any” plot twist which is realistic, but I definitely prefer happy or at least hopeful ending in them (that’s my escapism), so I suppose I sorta kinda understand readers who do not want to see cheating in their stories, but not really, because as I said as long as it ends well I will read anything. Oh wait, no see I will not read purely horror story so thanks for suggesting “Tricks” that I will probably try soon enough. And I say women readers simply because I did not have a chance to discuss with guys who read mm romances this particular topic.
Hi Rick,
I know a lot of readers refuse to read a book with unfaithful characters, but I am not one of those people. I like books that are realistic and true-to-life and face it, most of us are flawed people who make mistakes. Characters in books should be able to, too, IMHO. As they say, conflict drives the plot and sometimes that conflict needs to come from the characters and not always be external.
L
I depends. Don’t you love that answer? LOL In general a serial cheater, someone who regularly goes behind his partner’s back (either current or past) is unappealing to me. I think it shows a weakness of character for that person (fictional or not) and if I don’t like you, I don’t care if you get your HEA. In fact I probably hope you won’t and your love interest will find someone who treats them with respect. However an example I can think of was AM Riley’s Immortality is the Suck where the lead character slept with lots of people and was totally unapologetic for it. He was in a relationship with someone but whatever, it was all about him. I loved that book. I liked him anyway. So that’s the depends, can you make me care about someone who is essentially a jerk?
I also think that being out in a bar and having a stranger give a bj in an alley is different than a “relationship” with another person. Maybe that’s the girl in me, but I can get past a physical infidelity more so than an emotional one.
So it’s certainly not a deal breaker for me, but I think it can be difficult to keep readers from disliking a character who cheats. If you can do that, then fine.
And to me, open relationships where both couples agree and are aware, threesomes and sleeping with someone else BEFORE you get together with the other love interest (even if you have already met) are not cheating.
Rick- great post! I will checkout your book ! I hadn’t read it yet.
Tam-
!”I also think that being out in a bar and having a stranger give a bj in an alley is different than a “relationship” with another person. Maybe that’s the girl in me, but I can get past a physical infidelity more so than an emotional one.
So it’s certainly not a deal breaker for me, but I think it can be difficult to keep readers from disliking a character who cheats. If you can do that, then fine.
And to me, open relationships where both couples agree and are aware, threesomes and sleeping with someone else BEFORE you get together with the other love interest (even if you have already met) are not cheating”
Tam- I used to be a fairly conservitve gal-
believing in “traditional romance” or however your want to phrase it ~ obviously since I’M on this site- not so much anymore 🙂 I really liked your statement !
That is a great way to put it, at least from my POV.
– Do I want it in my books? Well if along those same lines , I will read it- otherwise don’t purchase book if know ahead of time is about ” cheating, or continual sneaking around” Just not for me.
Loved Tricks, it´s one of these books I had to read in one go :hearts03:
About infidelity in romance, I personally think that all depends on how it works in the story. Of course a cheater is not going to get my sympathies just like that, but it´s not the same a one-time thing that being unfaithful all the time, or the circunstances related to what´s goign on… although the more he cheates, the more he is going to “have to work hard” to redeem himself :sceptic:
About “lusting only in their hearts” or not doing it at the last moment? Sometimes it´s feels a bit forced just to avoid the act itself (at least that has been sometimes my impression) because that sort of “ranks lower” as cheating 😯
So in the end it is in the author´s hands whether or not I will be cheering up for his happy ending, or keep caring for that character 🙂
For me that also works for any bad boy that shows up in romance: given the chance by the end of the book I may have forgotten about what nastiness they have been up to in the beggining 😕
Thank you for your interesting post 😎
I remember two examples of infidelity in m/m stories that affected me a lot.
The first is from a cowboy story about 2 characters that start out seeing each other in a kind of open relationship but later on in the story drift to a very “special”and devoted relationship, even though they still fight and experience problems.
Then one of the characters cheat, and I have to tell you, that physically hurt reading. It was not a deal breaker but I could not believe he would wreck his relationship that way. Because it was definetely a deal breaker for the other character and as a reader you felt as cheated as the one cheated on.
The second example was a story about a couple who had a very fragile relationship because one of them had problem with being/feeling crowded and really didn’t know how to handle a longterm relationship. In a follow up story they later develop more an open relationship, started by an incident of infidelity. In this case this was a huge deal-breaker for me because I couldn’t keep up/agree with the psychology. I guess you could say in this case I felt cheated on by the author instead! 😀
So I guess my answer would be that it depends on the situation and context in the book. It has to make sense. Also I sometimes think authors have a tendency to push certain plots too far. It’s like instead of using small means to communicate growth they go all out and sometimes too far. And this is not only in m/m, I’ve read fantasy where the character are so evil it’s grotesque and the suffering the main characters stumble upon gives you nightmares for days. All in the name of making the story realistic (I think).
Rick
I have no problem with characters who are not faithful, but then I’m much more realistic and pragmatic about fictional romances. In RL people cheat all the time and maybe this is why some readers are turned off because they are either afraid it could happen to them or they are after total escapism when they read a romance.
I think one of the reasons why many M/M readers find it difficult to accept infidelity is because they moved to this sub genre from the “Romance genre” and they can’t understand why some gay characters are not like the heroines and heroes they read about in het romances who didn’t stray.
In contemporary stories I prefer internal rather than external conflict and there’s nothing more intrinsic to a relationship than fidelity; there’s also nothing more gut wrenching than when one partner can’t keep it in his pants. I love reading about flawed characters – and there’s no bigger flaw in a romance than a partner who cheats. Of course there are also characters who murder for love but that’s a different topic. 🙂
Like in every book I read I expect the characters to be well drawn and likable and the prose and dialogue to draw me into the stories like they did in The Adrien English Mysteries where Jake was a tomcat. One of my favourite stories is Bareback by Chris Owen and although many readers panned it there are just as many fans of Tor and Jake. This book remains Chris’s best seller despite all the controversy! I also liked many other stories with this theme but the key is that the writing has to win me over and the ending can’t be a “slam bam thank you man.”
I think while there has to be a good reason for one or both of the partners straying, redemption must be earned, and that’s where the author’s writing skill comes into play.
1. No- not a deal breaker.
2. YES- to realistic plot device which writer balances with character growth and plot purpose
3. If it is in a blurb I will hesitate to buy.
I had to think hard about #3 and why most writers have disturbed me with their use of this.
:think:
It’s a wallbanger when the innocent partner’s reaction is minimized. There will be influences in the relationship for a time even after make-up :sex4:! Since I relate more to the done to partner it takes me more than a page or two for me to regroup. I have lost trust with writers handling of this – – end up disgusted with the story.
There! That’s the best can do,
Thanks Rick for the post. Now Tricks will be moving up my TBR pile. You have caught me! 8)
How I do love to wake up to the smell of infidelity and coffee in the morning! Thanks for all the thoughtful posts so far…I am looking forward to seeing what kind of other comments this post elicits.
In real life and in fiction cheating is not a deal breaker for me. What I don’t want is for the cheating to happen “on screen” so speak. I’ve been tricked into reading too many books where the author essentially treats the cheating incident with the same explicit detail as the sexual encounters between the main characters. That is where I draw the line. In real life, I wouldn’t want to watch a video of my wife fucking someone else–unless it was an agreed upon 3-way, or the kink was a turn on (which it’s not)–and I don’t want it in my fiction either.
I’ve been hesitant to try out Josh Lanyon’s AE series because it’s all over the interwebs that one of the characters cheats on the other. But I don’t know if that happened off screen or on, and there’s now way in hell I’m plunking down my money if it happens on screen, no matter how much I like Lanyon’s writing.
Call me old fashioned, but sex is how I know I care about someone, and I bring that to reading. When authors detail cheating encounters the same as the main couple’s, I feel involved and dirty. Yet, I don’t feel that during other scenes.
BUT I’m also not one of those people who insist that the characters can’t have sexual lives before they meet the love interest(s). I’m totally on board with one or both characters having sex with other people before they realize that they want to pair, or triple up, with another character(s).
Short story long, it’s only a deal breaker if it happens on the page and I have to flip past the scene.
That’s a really interesting perspective, Zola. It kind of reminds me of some gay couples I know who are in open relationships, yet have a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. How would you feel about an adulterous scene being “on-screen” yet not celebrated?
Strangely enough, I think the degree of explicit detail is a kind of “celebration” regardless of how the character feels during the encounter. In my mind, showing it implies that it has the same gravity, if you will, as sex in the main relationship.
Authors make all sorts of choices about what events they’re going to show, and those events help shape reader expectations.
On another note,I tend to subscribe to the idea that whatever we “see” happens to us, even if its just a bunch of words on a page. That belief is one of the reasons I tend to shut my eyes during some graphic sex or violence scenes, especially if those scenes are gratuitous. I can watch/read sex or violence that seems organic but if the scenes seem contrived I feel like I’m reading/watching porn.
That’s my 50 cents.
Oh Zola, don’t hesitate if you like Josh Lanyon’s mysteries. The AE series is so well written, the prose is so beautiful and the dialog is Lanyon at his witty best. Although Jake isn’t faithful throughout the books, that isn’t the focus of the stories and Josh makes you ache for them to work it out. There is no on page sex with Jake’s other partners, there’s actually very little on page sex period, but you won’t miss it unless that’s a requirement for your stories.
I’ve been hesitant to try out Josh Lanyon’s AE series because it’s all over the interwebs that one of the characters cheats on the other. But I don’t know if that happened off screen or on, and there’s now way in hell I’m plunking down my money if it happens on screen, no matter how much I like Lanyon’s writing.
Thank you, Zola for expressing what I feel about Josh’s AE series. I own every other book Josh has published but these because I don’t want to read about cheating between the main characters. I wish someone could tell me – the reviews on Amazon don’t – how explicit the cheating is. If it is off-stage, I would consider buying the books because I know what a talented writer Josh is. But if the cheating is graphic, I would have to skip the books.
It is definetely off-page.
The greatest characters in literature are flawed. If they were perfect in every aspect, they would be boring and no one would care. While we wouldn’t want to see infidelity be the theme every time (that would get old), it, along with other issues that create drama in the story, is a perfectly acceptable literary feature.
Infidelity isn’t a dealbreaker for me in a romance (m/m or otherwise), but if it’s not handled well, I lose a lot of faith in the author. I want it handled, on both sides, in true-to-character form. I want to have some understanding of why the cheater did so, and I want to see true remorse on their part afterward for having hurt their partner. I want the “cheatee” to go through reasonable stages of shock and anger and grief and self-doubt (as appropriate to the character and the situation, of course). And I want the relationship itself to change somehow as a result.
But these expectations are true for me of any story with any tension — that I want to see conflict affecting the characters emotionally and realistically. Otherwise, it’s not a romance; it’s just porn.
Hi Rick. I recently got a rejection on my m/m MS because of infidelity. Although the lead character was in a relationship, they were not married (this is a coming out story) and it was clear from the get-go things between them were rocky. I was surprised when that was the the stated reason for the rejection. I’m not a fan of predictable stories or characters. WE are full of flaws. LIFE is full of flaws. I can deliver a happy ending, no problem, but it doesn’t have to be all hearts and flowers to get there. A good writer can create a believable story to overcome the infidelity and make the romance even more powerful IMO.
I agree 100% Maggie and hope that another publisher has a more open mind…
Noble Romance sure does. They bought the book without a second thought.
Good for Noble Romance!
“Betrayal and redemption” is one of my very, very favorite themes of all, and it is one of my great disappointments how seldom I see it done, much less done well. That’s one of the reasons I go back frequently to Chris Owen’s Bareback, despite the fact that it otherwise almost certainly wouldn’t be on my favorites list. That aspect of it, far from being a turn-off for me, is my main reason for loving the book.
There are many different types of betrayal, of course, but infidelity, depending on the circumstances, can be a pretty significant one, and it’s one I not only don’t mind, but love to see written (with the caveat that I do want redemption). The “tragic flaw” without the tragedy – the vulnerability that both characters have to show to get through the issue, the testing of the bond, the opportunity for conflict and resolution, the opportunity for the bond to emerge stronger at the other end, the idea that love can withstand even a significant challenge; these are some of the reasons this theme can work for me.
But as another commenter suggested – none of this holds true if the issue, and the consequences, are minimized. Again, there’s the redemption part that’s just as important, or put another way, how the infidelity acts as a trigger or catalyst for change, growth, movement. If the author doesn’t write that change and growth, but just jumps to the final result…well, I guess that’s just bad writing, whether o not it involves infidelity! But it happens too often.
And I have to say, I am often put off and frustrated by authors who just refuse to “go there” even when their story seems to call for it – who skirt the issue by having their characters come oh-so-close to cheating, doing everything but, but then decide not to in an artificial-seeming way. I don’t know if the authors are avoiding the controversy of having a cheating character or the difficulty of writing a resolution (or, to be fair, maybe they really needs to write, to believe in, this fantasy), but there’s only so much “escapism” I can take; a totally problem-free and artificial relationship doesn’t do it for me, because I can’t believe in it.
Justacat, for me, it seems there could be two good reasons not to write infidelity (and the powerful redemption) into a MS. One is personal convictions getting in the way of what the story and its characters demand. Two the difficulty they have getting a contract. At the end of the day, for many of us, this is a business. The third book in my vampire series is called Redemptive Love. Guess what it’s about? Yep. Fixing the broken from the second book. Can’t wait to write it.
Ooh, betrayal & redemption is one of my favorite themes too. Sexual betrayal does rank on my list because I don’t think it’s tragic or points to a tragic character flaw, or something like that. Which is not to say that sexual betrayal can’t wound a person deeply, the betrayer and the betrayed. Fictional infidelity doesn’t hit the pleasure centers in my brain that light up over other kinds of betrayal. Hmmm, that sounds kinda weird, but it’s the redemptive parts of betrayal/redemption plots that I love, love, love & can’t get enough of.
I pretty much agree with the folks who are saying that if it adds to the plot, cheat away. I love angst. Cheating brings angst. I immediately thought of the same two books that I think Saga was talking about. I loved them both. The cheating and the open relationship, in my opinion, made for an intense story. So I guess my answer is I can handle in a book, what might not be so acceptable in RL.
Hi Rick,
You can never discount a story with infidelity. It has to be considered based only on the story and how it fits. Most people like to see commitment, myself included but not all situations are alike. Sometimes something like this leads to a recognition that there is a problem with the relationship and they need to take action to improve it. I am sure that I am saying the same as others but thanks for allowing me to comment. 🙂
For me infidelity is somewhere between a deal breaker and a couldn’t-care-less plot device. Basicly this means that if the infidelity fits the story and I can buy the characters’ reaction to it, I’m fine with it. And in any case I find emotional infidelity much harder to accept than physical infidelity.
Well, Rick, I hope it isn’t a turn off for everyone because the last Ageless book deals alot with expanding the relationship beyond the two people involved…
Obviously, it isn’t a deal breaker for me. Every relationship is different, and the people involved will have different ideas of what faithful means. If all stories held to the same definition of what’s right and what’s wrong…well. Are we trying to brainwash people, or tell the stories the world presents us with and reflect both the best and the worst of what the world has to offer? I like to think, idealized or not, we’re telling tales about the world we live in and navigating the waters of relationships includes dealing with infidelity.
I don’t have time for a full-blown thoughtful response at the moment (late getting ready for work), but I have a question: Is infidelity perceived differently when one of the heroes is married to a woman and cheats on her with the man he’s fallen in love with? I’m thinking specifically of one of my favorite books of the year so far, Nothing Ever Happens by Sue Brown.
I have written such a story myself, Buda, “Through the Closet Door” about a man coming to terms with his homosexuality and the angst he goes through because he truly loves his wife (I have been there myself, btw). I don’t know if others see it differently, but I do because you have someone who is looking for a different kind of love than his (or her) spouse can provide…and the timing of that realization may have come too late, as can happen in real life. The epiphany or acceptance of who you are can be a crossroads in a marriage and it can be handled sensitively, imo.
This is exactly what I’m talking about, Rick. The world is what it is, and people are what they are. I see no benefit in ignoring the reality of how the human heart works in favour of some fantasy no one will ever live up to. My favorite kind of stories to read are ones in which the heroes can look at their life and their actions and realize they do know how to do better and have the courage to try. Whether ‘better’ is leaving the relationship they’re in for one more true to their heart, or working through their difficulties and making things right with their partner, it’s the growth and the acceptance and love of self that makes a story work for me, and whatever venue the author feels best illustrates that growth is acceptable to me.
I much prefer a view of a character as a creature that can look at their own flaws and grow and change for the better than a fantasy image of a world (in which no one ever cheats or makes mistakes that hurt other people) that can never exist. If that makes any sense.
This, yes.
Buda
This is a theme in many M/M books where one character is unfaithful. It may be a GFY story or the character realizes late in life that he’s gay when he’s already married. What is he to do? He tries to remain faithful to his wife even though he’s drawn to men or a particular man, but he can’t, so he leaves her for a man and they have a HEA. This is happening more and more in RL as well. Rick wrote a moving story along these lines in Through The Closet Door
Buda,
Im looking forward to your full blown thoughts.
“Is infidelity perceived differently when one of the heroes is married to a woman and cheats on her with the man he’s fallen in love with?”
IMO, infidelity is infidelity.. changing the gender doesnt make the action less harsh.
Ive seen both situations with different outcomes in RL.
-Man left wife for another Man, ex-wife continues to be friendly with ex and SO and both are part of their adult childrens lives.
-Woman leaves husband for a woman, The ex-husband completely broke down, doubting his manhood!(Men!)
I’m going against the flow here, but for me it is a deal breaker. In life, it would end the relationship that I was in and I don’t want characters that I’ve fallen in love with to cheat either. The only book that I’ve read and reread that has infidelity in it is Chris Owen’s Bareback, and even then I usually just skim over that part. If its clear from the blurb that there will be infidelity in the book, I won’t even pick it up (or buy it in the case of ebooks) and if it shows up in a story where there was no hint of it in the blurb, I’ll usually just stop reading right there. I’m not one for too much angst in my books though. I prefer the “you and me against the world” type rather than “you and me against each other”.
I should have added – The THOUGHT of infidelity I don’t mind too much, because most people seem to occasionally have those thoughts. But the actual act, nope. I want a HEA for my characters, not a troubled relationship where you just wonder why they are together.
Well, unless you’re writing fairy tales, I don’t see how an author can just ignore the subject of infidelity – which, btw, is the theme of some of the greatest novels in literature – Madame Bovary, Anna Karenina come to mind – it’s there, in every relationship, if not the act, then the thought of it. I think like everything else it’s in how one handles it – but, yes, you will always have some readers who don’t like it. Some readers don’t like horror, or dragons, or whatever. No one can write, and write well, looking over his shoulder to see what Miss Reader is thinking. I know I can’t. I have to be, always, true to my characters, and my characters get tempted. Now, what they actually do about it is another subject…
Victor…I think it was Bill Cosby (that great mind!!) who said something like, “I don’t know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is thinking you can please everyone.”
Nope, definitely not a deal breaker for me. I like realistic stories and infidelity is a huge problem for many couples, so I love to see how they resolve this problem.
The deal breaker for me is when one partner is clearly taking advantage of another or stories that are merely glorified domestic/sexual abuse.
I think it translates to my real life expectation as well. I can see myself forgiving infidelity in certain circumstances, but taking advantage of me, hitting me, or treating me like dirt and I won’t ever forgive that.
I’m with you on this one, Rick – infidelity happens, and it’s not always catastrophic betrayal. What’s important to me is 1) what the standing relationship agreements are, the relationship context, if you will; 2) how honest/open the character is about what occurred; and 3) how the characters respond to the event – growth, whatever.
Frankly, a self-absorbed, closed-minded rejection of a person who has been unfaithful without regard to anything else is just as much of a turn-off to me as a surreptitious and cynical violation of a promise of fidelity.
hmm…. its all about the characters – its about making mistakes and perphaps not being able to help yourself in that moment – its also about the author being true to to the characters and how they deal with it and I mean both the MC’s- Zola do try Josh Lanyon – its off page and A.M Riley also is good about people you and I might recognise – in our selves as well as others. Does that make sense?- never mind -heres a bunny :evilgrin:
Thank you for this post, Rick. 😎
I’ve learned firsthand how difficult readers take infidelity in romance stories. I wrote a novel about a polyamorous relationship and it was gunned down.
For me personally, it’s not a deal breaker.
Like you said, it adds depth and flaws to the character(s) you’ve created. I’m not a big fan of cheaters (characters who sleep around behind their lover’s back, when it is clear the lover wants fidelity) and I’ve rarely seen the cheating done so well I’ll forgive the character for it.
That said, I think there should be more stories written about purposely open relationships, because they may not be the rule, but they are certainly realistic and the more us readers are exposed to them (wharts and all, because let’s face it, there are easier ways to have a relationship), the more we’ll come to understand that it’s a variation that is realistic (in both gay and straight relationships)
Zahra,
I agree with you:
I can’t really speak for straight relationships, but I know that there are quite a few gay male relationships that I know that are open.
My hero Dan Savage even admits his relationship with longtime boyfriend Terry isn’t totally monogamous. He says (paraphrasing here)they keep the door slightly open, which doesn’t mean it’s wide open at all or always, but it’s not completely shut either.
I think that’s very realistic. A lot more realistic than demanding complete and utter monogamy from both partners in the relationship, however romantic this seems.
I’d love it if this could be writte about in romantic m/m fiction. After the response to my polyamory novel, I’ll watch what I write, and that makes me kind of sad.
I think that’s wonderful. And like I said before, I probably don’t know if I’d be able to handle an open relationship myself (which is why I’m fascinated with other relationships that are). The best part of reading about an open relationship (no matter how wide the door is opened), or of listening to my friends talk about theirs, is really see the inherent trust that it takes to make it work. In a relationship whose boundaries are pre-ordained and not customized, how can you be so sure of that trust? Maybe that is pessimistic of me, but a couple who defines their own has to test that trust until it works, which makes it stronger.
I think I still haven’t completely come to terms with the romance genre ethos. I’ve only been reading romance for about two years, and I never realized how much control readers have over authors. Sometimes it frightens me.
Maybe this sounds strange, but I actually like reading stories with infidelity (and no, in regards to Victor’s comment, I don’t get off on the infidelity in Anna Karenina! Vronsky is kinda hot, but Levin’s the real man 🙂 ). I suppose it is because I know reading romance that I will get at least an HFN, and that means that the couple is going to try their best to work through the problems, and come out on the other side. If I have that assurance, then while reading it might be empathically painful, it is a testimonial to the same thing happening in RL. And that is an encouraging thought. Infidelity doesn’t always mean an abrupt end to a relationship.
Very interesting, both the blog and the comments. Infidelity is no deal-breaker for me, either reading about it or writing it. But as several have pointed out there has to be a reason for it and the protagonists have to react to it. It can’t just be a throw-away to ‘spice up’ the story.
Of course it’s a deal breaker this is Romance.
If I want Soap Opera I can turn on daytime television and it will probably be done better.
You cannot have a trusting relationship with a turd sorry if that ruins the charm of reality for you but them’s the breaks.
I take issue with your statement “you can’t have a trusting relationship with a turd…” because I don’t think infidelity automatically makes someone untrustworthy. I think it all depends on what the agreements are within a relationship and whether or not the person is breaking an agreement maliciously or unthinkingly, etc.
It depends on the author’s skills. One of my favorite m/m books is A.M. Riley’s Amor en Retrogrado which had issues of infidelity in it so it’s not a deal breaker for me. I think it’s a very tricky thing to write because it is a big betrayal of trust & the reader is not going to be satisfied if the incident is just brushed aside in a couple of pages. The kinds of m/m writers I see who write their insta love stories should probably avoid this, because it’ll take more than a few pages before the reader trusts in that relationship again. I don’t want cheating to become the latest trope of m/m, but if it fits the story & handled well then I have no problem reading it.
I think showing someone being tempted but then not following through with it (instead of giving in to temptation) is not a cop out for a writer, because this is a more realistic scenario for people in a successful long term relationship & in romance you do want the couple to succeed.
I don’t consider it cheating in the story if the couple hasn’t really made that commitment yet. If you have a character like Jake(from the Adrien English stories) who is conflicted about his sexuality, then you’d expect him to test the waters back & forth. (I haven’t read the 3rd book yet so I’m not sure what he does)
It’s also funny that I never considered the Tricks issue was about cheating. I thought it was more about issues of monogamy & how each saw their relationship. I thought Arliss was a very sympathetic character & I understood his point of view.
Is infidelity a deal breaker? … Not necessarily when buying a book, in an actual relationship yes. Even reading about infidelity is not comfortable for me; I am self-aware enough to recognize this as personal baggage and not the sign of good fiction. I guess I just don’t have the backbone to feel safe in an open relationship so I don’t want characters I love to be in one either at least not forever. Having said that, I don’t mind infidelity as an obstacle on the way to HEA or HFN, because I do believe in second chances and forgiveness. 😎
Great post and a good topic. I suppose there’s no black and white answer whether it’s a deal breaker in a romance. Like you said, it’s a great device to drive the story, to test the relationship, to enhance characterisation.
I suppose, for me, it depends on how does that infidelity happen, what makes the character do it and how he reacts to it. What I really hate and a deal breaker for me is those “reckless infidelity” – just out of the blue, or with excuses like “spice up sex life”, that’s not romantic behaviour ;).
Tortured soul, promiscuious as defense, commitment issues (preferably with valid back story), these are all “acceptable” reasons for infidelity… Basically, readers would just want to know Why, before we give the character sympathy.
Romance books are about lovers overcoming obstacles to be together and infidelity is an obstacle. To me it’s just another plot point and not a deal breaker at all.
Also, we need to distinguish between infidelity (cheating) and open relationships (an agreement). Infidelity is heart-wrenching… but sharing and playing can be really hot and fun.
If readers start saying certain plot points are completely off the table… than we’re eventually going to get bored (and start cheating with other genres!)
😛
I think for me it’s not just a matter of the physical infidelity as it is a trust issue. Breaking trust is far more worrisome than merely having a physical encounter with someone else. So there I think is where the conflict comes in–less as a matter of physical betrayal as emotional one. The way the author handles the latter makes all the difference.
Rick, I LOVE your picture at the beginning of the post 😀
You very nicely summed up my stance on infidelity in m/m books. I am all about realistic plots and characters,and there is nothing more real than overcoming the devastating impact that infidelity can have on a relationship.
Thank you for such an insightful and thoughtful post from the author’s perspective.
In my case I’d say that depends on the book and the plot. If there’s a point to the infidelity plot line, if it moves the story along and we see character growth form what happened, than it doesn’t bother me. After all even if it’s fiction we expect the characters to feel real and that includes flaws and making mistakes. But they should also learn from those mistakes as they would were it RL. Also the person who was cheated on should in that case act accordingly and not take them back in a matter of minutes. Kick them out, make them stew and growl, make them rue the day they strayed 👿 And than maybe take them back. If it makes sense for the story.
Otherwise thanks, but no thanks.
Wow! What an outpouring of senstive, thoughtful comments. I am so grateful to all of you for taking the time to write and voice your opinions and even more grateful that most of you realize that human nature includes a margin for error and relationships are seldom black and white. I agree with the poster above who said, “Romance books are about lovers overcoming obstacles to be together and infidelity is an obstacle. To me it’s just another plot point and not a deal breaker at all” which was pretty much the point of my whole post. Great fiction, great romance is about conflict and resolution. Without those things, there wouldn’t be much of a story. And no, in fact, I do not think you can see better infidelity storylines done on daytime soap operas. I think, as part of this genre, we are a little better than that.
My two cents, since this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately.
I come from a background of fan fiction, where letting characters in your stories cheat makes people burn you on a stake or just plain shun you. I have a lot of friends I’ve met in the fan fiction circles who are extremely strict about any kind of cheating. It. Can’t. Happen.
That said, one of the best books I’ve read in a while, Sue Brown’s Nothing Ever Happens (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/10432047) deals with the same themes and manages to do it in a way that I’ve been recommending the book for those said friends who can’t usually handle cheating.
Mainly I think it’s a question of women being against cheating in general. The emotions that come from reading something we can’t approve of in real life make us too uncomfortable. I mean for example, I have very few hard limits as a reader, but cheating, if not handled “just right” is always close to my limits.
I certainly know I haven’t written cheating and would be hesitant to do so, because I’d definitely think it wasn’t something I couldn’t write well enough for it to be redeemed later in some way.
I haven’t read Tricks yet, but now I’ll definitely take a look at some point.
I agree.
Part of the fun in reading a story is when the story itself challenges your world view. It doesn’t have to change how you view the world or your principles, but when a story can leave you with a new look on something or a new perspective on life and how things work, even if it doesn’t alter your beliefs, that still can only be called a good thing. Infidelity in modern terms seems to be one of the unpardonable sins. I don’t endorse it (in fact, a friend of mine and I recently had an in-depth discussion about it and what it really refers to), but we all have our faults: humans or gods alike. I’ve known people in relationships who were tested because of infidelity. Some I thought should have called it quits, but for various reasons other than that. Others made it work anyway. In the case of a story or in life, conflict is something we face each day. It shapes us, perhaps even more than happiness or joy.
For me, infidelity is not a deal breaker, per se, but it is really hard to come back from, in fiction and in life. I think it depends on the type of infidelity–just a kiss, which in my book really isn’t infidelity just a bad moment, or a handjob, or full on penetrative sex. It’s the last that, IMO, is pretty unforgivable, although if handled appropriately in a book, with a lot of soul-searching and penance on the part of the cheating character, it may be recoverable.
The turning point, I think, is trust. If the sex was done in a drunk moment of weakness, and the character’s twin brother had died and his dog had cancer, and he barely remembered it in the morning…okay, easier to realize he didn’t intend to cheat, really, and easier to recover…and great point of growth, both for the characters and the relationship. But if it was done just because he was horny and the other guy was available…so much harder to trust the guy now. One book I’ve read where it was handled decently well was Cameron Dane’s ReneCade…you understood both sides of the situation, and while the cheating was due to a really stupid misunderstanding, it also played into the cheater’s immaturity (young, and in his first real relationship) and lead to a lot of growth for him. I’m still not sure I totally buy the forgiveness and HEA in that story, even after a few reads, but I’m okay that the relationship might be a work in progress, and the recovery from that infidelity will take place for a longer time off screen.
To be clear, I only consider it to be cheating when it is a sexual act (somebody comes, and there is contact between the two while that happens), and there is no agreement between the cheater and his partner…they are in a loving, committed relationship that is not open. Polyamorous and open relationships are entirely different, with a different set of rules. I actually sometimes enjoy reading about those types of relationships, but it definitely must be agreed on beforehand.
I agree with others above that I don’t necessarily want to see the cheating happen “on screen”, at least not where it’s handled as another sex scene. I can handle it more as a “fade to black” or getting caught in the act type of scene. I also think the cheater should feel some intense remorse/regret, and we get to see/feel that…otherwise, I can’t really get behind the relationship continuing.
I know that’s a lot of conditions, but for me, infidelity is a slippery slope…I would have a hard time with it in any relationship I was in, and while it’s a little easier to read about in fiction, it has to be carefully handled before I would believe in any sort of HEA.
You make an important distinction, Brett. It’s all about the agreement partners create together.
My self-respect prevents me from promising something I know I can’t deliver. My husband and I have been together for 9 deeply loving years, and when we first got serious I told him I could never promise him monogamy, only love. He’s my primary relationship and I’m not interested in another.
But I take exception to the fantasy (it would be a fantasy in my case, and I know not for all) that one person should be everything to another. For me to claim that would be just a form of co-dependent grandiosity.
For me, love is enough. No, more than enough. And trust comes from love honestly proven. It has nothing to do with monogamy, but a faithfulness that runs deeper than flesh. I live my HEA every day.
Hi, Rick. Interesting post, and something I hadn’t thought of in concrete terms before.
Realism. Even in fantasy. An infidelity in itself is a lot less important to me than the whys and wherefores and the what-happens-afters. If a character is going to be unfaithful, I want to know why, I want to know about that place inside him that compels him to seek something he can’t find in either his partner or himself. Give me a reason to try to understand him.
And if he and his partner are the central love story, I want to know how that infidelity affects the relationship. I want to see the journey to understanding for both halves of the partnership. I don’t want the ‘oh well’ attitude I’ve seen before, the ‘he cheated but I love him so much I forgive him’ thing that some authors use as an easy out. If I wanted that, I’d be reading Harlequin romances. I mean, that’s fine, forgiveness is certainly reality, but WHY? What makes this guy so special that his partner is willing to share him to keep him? What makes him worth keeping? How does that not make the partner a doormat?
I think the problem many women have with infidelity and the sometimes blase way authors treat it is the inescapable fact that it debases–insults–the wronged partner. We want to see that wronged partner stand up and deck the guy then stomp away to have a brilliant, fulfilled life without him. And when there is instead a coming to terms, it’s not always handled right. That debasement (or insult, if you prefer) is not always redeemed. Or, perhaps, it’s redeemed in a more realistic way, the redemtion is subtler, more realistic, and you don’t have the swell of trumpets as the wronged partner stalks off, and the cheater sports a bloody nose and stares longingly after him, knowing he’s just made the biggest mistake of his life that he’ll regret forever.
Some people, quite simply, have a limit as to how much reality they want in their fiction.
Your story was realistic, you SHOWED the decisions and processes behind those decisions, the emotions and the working-through of them. I got it. I might not have agreed with some of it, I might not have done the same things those characters did, but that’s the beauty of realism–those guys aren’t me, which is what makes reading about them as they navigate their relationship so interesting.
(God, I always ramble when I play here.)
@Carole “I think the problem many women have with infidelity and the sometimes blase way authors treat it is the inescapable fact that it debases–insults–the wronged partner.”
Aaah, thank you, you’ve just helped me realize something about myself. I was struggling to articulate exactly why my feelings about infidelity is a grievous offense to me and you hit the nail dead on.
I don’t view infidelity as being about the “wronged” partner or as an insult/debasement that the other party must respond to in someway. Which I think is the view you’re articulating here–and one most people seem to agree with–that someone is cheated on and therefore cheating reflects badly on the person cheated on, such that they need to do something to restore their self image.
What I see as being about the “wronged” partner is a deliberate or not so deliberate breaking of trust or an agreement.
I meant to say “infidelity isn’t a grievous offense to me” aargh.
Hm, good point. Maybe I should have phrased that as a perceived debasement/insult. Because you’re right–the wronged partner is not debased, but the overwhelming perception in the everyday world is that a cuckold is someone to be pitied, someone who perhaps loses respect in the eyes of others through no fault of their own. Which is, I think, where some of the problems come in for certain readers.
For me I read m/m romances to escape real life drama, so to read about one character being unfaithful to another is a deal breaker for me. If I know about this plot before I purchase the book, I will not buy it. To me romances, whether m/f or m/m, are about True Love and finding your soulmate. Cheating while the characters are already in a relationship doesn’t make me sympathetic towards that character, which I why I tend to skip infidelity stories. Old fashioned of me I know, but I really prefer romance in my romance novels.
Great topic, Rick. I cannot wait to read the responses.
I agree with you, Rick. This type of scenario can add a great deal of emotional depth and dramatic momentum to a story. But . . . my answer comes with certain qualifications, which primarily have to do with the caliber of the storytelling and character-building.
If I can be sold on the circumstances surrounding the infidelity — if they’re believable and moving — and if I can remain sympathetic to the characters, I’m not bothered at all. Ineptly handled, though, a cheating situation can be very off-putting. (I wish I could give examples, but that wouldn’t be cool.)
I totally agree :cooler:
Really interesting post Rick. Infidelity is not a deal breaker for me, and I have read a lot of stories where it added quite a lot to the character development.
So although I wouldn’t avoid a book because of this, there are times when I just want a straight forward romance so I can understand those who don’t enjoy this plot line.
Hello Rick:
First, I want to read your book Tricks. Sounds very intriguing.
I’m commenting because A.Ashling tweeted your blogsite this AM, and there were a couple of recently posted FFn story I read with “cheating” or a close approximation of it that freaked out a number of story reviewers.
“Cheating”–having sex with another person when someone you love doesn’t expect you to do so is a symptom of what’s wrong with the relationship. Discovering the deception occurred is hurtful, but it’s also a wakeup call for both parties, showing a lack of the proper respect for the feelings of one’s partner.
Thus, it should be an irrestible plot device, except it tends to leave sensitive female readers of M/M romance in shreds.
WTH, go for it. We women need to toughen up. xoxo
I agree with Victor, “Well, unless you’re writing fairy tales, I don’t see how an author can just ignore the subject of infidelity…”
I’ll even go a bit farther and suggest that fidelity is not always as important in the gay community as hetro (no disrespect intended so please don’t flame me) :help: So attempting to entirely remove infidelity from the m/m genre is like asking the historical genre to remove horses for being smelly or corsets because they are degrading to females.
A few readers may insist on those levels of ‘fantasy’ but let’s not impose them on the entire publishing industry. But for myself, I’m not a reader that enjoys a steady diet of cookie cutter stories made up of ‘approved’ cookie cutter elements.
That said, I’m not a fan of infidelity for it’s own sake and would avoid it where tossed into the story for merely frivilous reasons. But I am a BIG fan of just letting an author write their best story without arbitrary guidelines. So in the end that’s the ‘real’ test for me…does the author make it work to the point I really enjoy the story anyway?
For example, I recently finished the newest installment in the Administration Series by Manna Francis. I’d be missing a great series if I had drawn a line in the sand and absolutely refused to read any book with infidelity elements.
I’ve seen many reader comments regarding plot elements they dislike, avoid, or completely refuse to read. But if authors and publishers were to take them ALL ‘off the table’, the industry would be left with unremarkable (and unmemorable) fantasy. Real life isn’t so clean and neat, and often makes for the most interesting reading.
“…does the author make it work to the point I really enjoy the story anyway?”
And I think that’s the heart of the matter: making it work (as Tim Gunn might say). Handled right, the most contentious storylines can be brought to thoughtful life in the hands of a good writer. And I also agree that including infidelity for its own sake in a story is just as gratuitous as including sex for sex’s sake or gore simply to shock. This is a fascinating discussion and a lot more open-minded than I had dared hope for when I wrote the blog…
“Handled right” – yes, I agree that’s the key. Some authors are auto-buy for me because I know that no matter what the story is about, I’ll love it. Because they’ll make me love it. A good writer can make any story work, and a poor one (or even a good writer with a poor editor) can make any story not work.
This really is an interesting discussion, thanks! 😎
In response to your comment that gay people don’t appreciate fidelity: I think the gay community is a mixture of many different types of people in many types of relationships including polyamory & open ones. However, there are quite a number of gay men who are looking for monogamous committed relationships or are in one & are positively inflamed at the rap gay men get for being promiscuous & incapable of fidelity. I think even if you don’t know any who are like this( the ones not looking for hook ups or engaging in orgies), they do exist and aren’t necessarily a part of some fantasyland.
Exactly. All too often the gay community is labelled as promiscuous and the straight as monogamous. There is ample proof that neither stereotype is correct.
Just like I know gay couples who sleep around (with permission), I also know some who are totally committed to each other and wouldn’t dream of it!
The same goes for the straight couples I know. I have a straight couple in my group of friends who are polyamorous and who have other relationships (both the man and the woman) with full disclosure to each other. This is the agreement they made and for them, it works.
It takes all kinds and I’d enjoy it if fiction also allowed that.
Nope No Nein once a goddamn cheater always a frickin cheater should have nuts removed through rectum. If I get a book and it has cheating I will not read it, if they are broke up OK but if they are in love with that person and they go out and have either pussy or cock I will NOT read. Deletedelete!!! Reason I was going with a guy for almost two years had engagement ring walked in on his ass with a very good friend of mind or so I thought. To say I trust no one is an understatement of the year even my hubby of 23 years. He may not be alone with a female outside of work.
I dont want any author to write what I want! Make me love your stories because of the twists/turns that your artistic talent can create.
I agree Hannah. One of my favorite Josh Lanyon books is A Vintage Affair, which I know many people took issue with because of a m/f/m scene. But after recently re-reading it I was struck by the realization of how much less the story would be without it.
Was it a little painful to read, absolutely even after multiple readings, but it was so powerful and made the end if the story mean so much more. I would definitely not have enjoyed the book as much without it.
I’ve had books turned down for open relationships, which the editor called “cheating.” (how is it cheating when your partner SUGGESTS you get married to a woman for the purpose of producing heirs, and stands up with you while you do?)
I’ve had reviews that criticized “bed hopping” when there was no expectation or discussion of fidelity.
Unless you set it up as a triad or label it poly, you’re going to get flack if your heroes sleep with anyone but each other.
As a reader…I guess I don’t read enough. I haven’t actually encountered it as a plotpoint yet.
Really? You had that turned down? But I thought the menage books were very popular. Don’t make sense to me.
Menage books are popular, but it has to be three in a bed. This was a bisexual man with a wife and a male lover, both of whom he planned to keep. The lover did not touch the wife. (the fact that the lover ended up semi-willingly in the beds of two other men over the course of the book kinda hurt, too) Another publisher has expressed interest.
Now a menage, that goes over well enough, but it has to be labeled menage.
I’ll make my response short and sweet. Infidelity is a deal breaker for me. If you’re in a committed, monogamous relationship, it’s deeply wounding. I have dealt with it in RL and don’t want to relive it in romances.
I’ve read Bareback and didn’t realize it contained infidelity. The story was so well written that it was painful.
Infidelity is my issue and there are many well-written books containing it. It is a part of life and should be the authors’ choice to use infidelity if they feel it is needed to advance their story. It’s my choice whether to read it or not.
I do wish publishers would disclose the fact that the story contains infidelity but I usually wait until enough reviews are done before I buy the book.
I think Zola has an excellent point of the “no on-screen” infidelity, never thought of it from that point of view before. I think most books where this has been used has worked better for me.
I also agree with Tam that you face the issue of likability concerning the main characters when infidelity is used in the plot.
Ok… I’m really not good with words, but let me try.
You made an interesting comment in this that just jumped out at me… “I believe it can be handled in a compelling, honest way that can still be romantic.”
The word “honest” there is one of the best ways to describe this on so many levels. For me, it depends on the circumstances the author created for the characters, and were their reactions honest. Did the character that did the cheating react in an honest way? Did he/she try to rectify what was done? Was there are reason? (Seriously, I can’t even name how many couples I know who have a list of 5 or 10 people they would be forgiven for sleeping with if they had the chance.) These and many other questions determine whether it’s something that’s reasonable for me to read.
I know my issues with infidelity come more from the dishonesty factor that often accompanies the act, than the act itself. Honesty is the key for me, so I found it an interesting choice of words for you to use, but accurate.
I know that some of my (female) GR friends won’t read a book where one of the characters cheats on the other one. Hell, some of them even consider a threesome to be cheating. :nuts: which I find to be very weird.
I personally don’t mind reading about it as it very often makes for an interesting read with lots of drama. On-screen or off-screen, I don’t care as long as the writing’s good. In real life though, it’s a different story. When I found out that my ex had cheated on me for months while I was pregnant, I kicked his miserable little ass to the curb.
Hmm, it depends. If it’s a one time thing in the sense that he cheated with only 1 person then I’ll continue reading and it’s up to the author to make it make sense. If it’s a “character flaw” where the guy cheats over and over then I’m not interested. I’ll end up disliking the cheater and the other guy for taking him back. It won’t be pretty. If the cheater is already in a relationship and cheats on his partner/wife/current love interest and ends up with the other guy then I’m so not interested. It doesn’t matter how this is explained.
I find infidelity an interesting addition to a romantic storyline – there are so many different ways it can be handled, from open relationships (which doesn’t count as cheating in my books), the occasional drunken mistake or a more sustained infidelity – perhaps a symptom of something going seriously wrong in the original relationship.
Characters who cheat longer term will have to be very compelling in other ways to retain my sympathy, though. And I can forgive a lot of bad behaviour, but if they cheat then I need to know that they’re going to have to work for redemption.
I love the nuances in relationships like Amy Lane’s Crick and Deacon or Marie Sexton’s Angelo and Zach. But then, I’m apparently part of a rather small minority that doesn’t believe love and monogamy are black-and-white, cut-and-dried phenomena. I’ve always found it a little unrealistic to think one person could (or even should) be everything all the time to another person.
My mom doesn’t like horror movies but my stepmother loves them. So she watches them with friends who also love horror. Does that mean my parents are a failure as a couple despite being happy together for 30+ years? Of course not! They’ve found what works for them. They’re monogamous and this example is about movies, but I think the principle applies broadly enough to include sex and many other things.
Looking at Bareback, I think the readers would have been cheated had the story ended before the cheating. Jake and Tor’s relationship was a house of cards, bound to tumble eventually no matter how impressive the structure. When it did, they had the opportunity to learn and grow (or not). Choosing growth, even when it’s the more difficult path (as it usually is), enabled them to be better, stronger (6-million-dollar 😉 ) individuals who could build a relationship that could stand up to the vicissitudes of life for a real HEA. As a reader, I was enriched for having lived through it with them.
Which is all a long way of saying that, for me, cheating or not is really not the point. Believable characters who meet challenges to grow and develop, that’s the point.
I’m also going to have to say it depends. In real life I have zero tolerance for cheating, but in fiction I’ll admit it is not a deal breaker under the right circumstances.
I couldn’t have any sympathy towards a character who was a habitual cheater and felt no remorse, so that would be a deal breaker. In fact, that would likely lead to hurling the book against the wall. On the other hand, in Chris Owen’s Bareback, one of my favorites, Tor was miserable in his relationship and allowed himself to be seduced by the other man. He was weak, not greedy, and by the end of the book I had no trouble believing it would never happen again.
If there are extenuating circumstances, the reasons are compelling, and it leads to character growth, then cheating can be forgivable. Not excusable perhaps, but forgivable.
I dislike infidelity and cheating and tend to avoid it if I know the book has it (especially if it isn’t just a test, but follow through).
However, if well done, I see no reason not to have it. I’ve read great stories that involved infidelity. I think what some readers (myself included) hate about it is that the infidelity (even the threat of it) dirties the “purity” of the love and the “true-ness” of it. After all, if our fictional characters can’t find happy ever afters, how are we supposed to..(whether in real life or in the end of the book).
Personally, as long as the story has a happy ending, I don’t mind a little cheating, as long as there is appropriate guilt felt. But I’m a HEA addict. 🙂
If a relationship isn’t tested to the depths, how do you know it’s solid to the depths? I’m fully expecting to get blasted once people review my new story, Turncoat, but really, it had to happen. If your characters don’t test their own limits and come out more scarred as well as more layered, haven’t you written a simple melodrama? If Arliss hadn’t tried his dream, how would he know it couldn’t work?
Turncoat, you say? I haven’t read any of your books yet, but from what you say in this comment it sounds like I’ll have to check it out. 🙂
I suppose it comes down to your own personal perspective, what you find acceptable or allowable in a romance. I find that a good writer can get me to accept quite a bit when it’s handled just the right way.
For example, when I was a teenager, I read Catherine Coulter’s “The Wild Baron”. It was a historical romance where the hero’s parents had a very open relationship, both choosing other lovers now and again, but always coming back to each other. That was my first encounter with that sort of relationship and I saw it as a loving one.
When I was discussing the book with a friend (an older woman who was like a second mother to me), I told her what I thought and she jumped on my case and said “That’s not love! Not at all!” My first thought, I remember, was “How does she know? She hasn’t read the book!”.
The reason, I think, that I didn’t see that as cheating was because the author handled the subject well and made me see that the two people cared about each other and accepted each other wholly. As a teen, I was pretty shy and damned repressed, so this was quite a radical revelation for me. But thanks to that book and that conversation – I am a much happier, more open-minded person. So. Yay!
I do prefer that romance characters grow, change, angst, and work hard for their happy ending (if they get one), so if cheating is a way that those things come about, then I’m okay with it. If it’s just cheating for the sake of cheating and no one suffers or redeems themselves, then I end up feeling like the one cheated.
If the cheating helps a relationship grow and brings the couple closer, then that can actually endear me to the characters, making them seem more human and vulnerable to temptation. However, I would rather they get past the infidelity for a happy ending.
I’ve known couples in real life who moved beyond such events and were the stronger for it, so why should my fiction gloss over something that happens all too often? I understand that it’s not for everybody, but yes, I would definitely pick up a book where one partner cheats.
That said, Tricks has me intrigued.
I think it all depends on how it’s handled in the plot.
I’m in the minority here. I know it’s real life; I know characters move past it; I know authors handle it deftly and often with great compassion. I know all those things in my head. And yet, when I read about it, infidelity gives me a sick feeling in my stomach. Maybe I don’t read enough of it in books to get past the squick factor or maybe I have a too strong sense of the importance of intimacy in a committed relationship, but there it is. Having said that, I wouldn’t NOT read a book because of an infidelity, but there would have to be a guarantee of a great happily ever after.
Patty
I have a rec for you. Chris Owen’s Bareback. It will make you cry. It will enrage you. It will kill you. This is not the kind of book that will bore you. I think in the end you’ll be glad you read it because it’s SO worth it.
Bareback is one of my favourite M/M books and I love the characters. You may feel that you can’t get through it but you have to tough it out. If you do read this book Patty, send me an email to let me know if you at least liked it. There’s a review of the book on the site if you want to check it out. Be brave and take a walk on the wild side. Books are supposed to gie you a different perspective and open your mind. 🙂 It has a great HEA and the appropriate amount of forgiveness and redemption.
Wave, I have actually read Bareback. It was one of the first books Buda recommended to me. I read it because both of you loved it. Did I like it? Well, yes and no. For me- and this is me- the story gets lost in the sex. I did skip through some of the book to the turning point and went on to finish the book from there. I think Bareback is a classic case of different strokes, you know? I also discovered, in reading Bareback, that I no longer have a taste(or the attention span) for epic novels, those that take place over a span of several years. The books that make me cry are the mushy ones, like the ending of At Piper’s Point when Nate proposes to Cassidy. We can chat more via email.
That’s another interesting point Patty. I actually also did not like Bareback and as I mentioned previously infidelity for me is not a deal breaker at all. I did not like it for the reason you mentioned for me story get lost in what I consider way way too much sex, imo of course. So Bareback is to me a good illustration of when the reader dislikes the novel with some controversial issue for a reason that had no relations to such issue at all. Zahra Owens mentioned bad reaction of some readers to her polyamorous novel and she made the conclusion that readers disliked the novel for that reason. Maybe some readers did, I know I disliked for very different reasonm In my personal very subjective opinion that story had no plot, no character development and way way too much sex in my opinion. I for example read Firecracker by Jay Valentine and adored it so very much and guys there are in open relationship. So what I am trying to say is that when writer is trying to figure out whether story is not selling well because she or he has developed controversial issue in it, the reasons may be much simpler (all subjective reasons of course).
1. It’s fiction.
2. It is a method used to push the story forward.
3. In the hands of a talented author it can be an amazing addition to a story.
For me, I always find it uncomfortable and upsetting to read. If it is done well, then I find it so gratifying when I finish the book. Great topic.
As a reader, I’m looking for a great story, one that takes me out of my own everyday world and into another, more exciting and satisfying one. So, infidelity in a romance novel can work for me if it gets me that much more invested in the heart break and, ultimately, the redemption of the characters. I may not always be in the mood for that kind of book, but handled well it can lead to the kind of story that stays with me long after I’ve finished reading.
In the beginning stages of a relationship if there is a little fooling around with different partners, I can accept that. As long as the final relationship is functioning healthily, then whatever open sex they have is between them.
Might I mention the whole “we were on a break” situation of Friends. There are always arguments for accepting the occasional partner. ^_^
Wow, this was an interesting discussion! I’m actually kind of amazed at some of the responses… First let me say, I was married to a cheater. We later divorced, but the cheating was only a small part of the reason. Secondly, Bareback is one of my favorite books EVER! I read THAT scene at work, on lunch, and I was a mess, but I loved it because it is an incredible book! Thirdly, I think it was Josh Lanyon in his post the other day about reviewers that said a writer has to write for themselves and I believe that. When I buy a book, any book, I am basically saying to that author “tell me a story”. And it’s their story to tell. I may not like the story, but the writer has to tell it their way. It breaks my heart to see someone in this post say they changed the way they saw/wrote a story because of readers opinions. I’m not sure, as a reader/purchaser, I have any hard & fast deal-breakers altho I do tread carefully when it comes to any kind of child abuse. Infidelity isn’t even on my radar when I make the decision to buy/read a book. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Tell me a story…make me 😆 or 😥 or 😡 or :wallbash: or :hurrah: …how you do it is up to you, but, from the bottom of my heart :thanks: for sharing it with me
I’ve read through all the comments, and I guess I would have to qualify what I consider to be infidelity worth redeeming. A situation in which a married character needs to be true to himself, and in the process of self-discovery is unfaithful, is an entirely different situation from an individual who professes to be faithful to a lover, walks out the door and makes a deliberate choice to play around for whatever reason. Many earlier comments mentioned infidelity being a symptom of problems in a relationship, similar to that between Jake and Tor. And since men are notorious for having a hard time sharing their feelings (sorry guys for the generalization), that’s a realistic situation. The marriage probably can’t be saved, but hopefully a relationship can be. The skanky player gets kicked out the door. But if the 2 men want to save their relationship, then they have to work for it. I guess that’s what readers have to be willing to stick around for.
For me, I’d have to say it depends on the story and the character’s motivation. If the guy is just fooling around behind his partner’s back, because he can’t keep it in his pants, I’m not going to be enamored with that character. On the other hand, if infidelity is a necessary part of the story then I’m going to keep reading. I’ve been meaning to read Bareback but haven’t got around to it yet. I’ll think I’ll read it sooner now rather than later.
hello!
Infedility is a real problem for couples as there are and more temptations in our everyday life and less taboos! But, as you say, maybe it is a way of proving true love when people resist temptation.I think that what is important in a relashionship is the “little things” that lovers share and a “sexcapade” doesn’t mean that love is dead between them.But, of course, it depends of the limits a couple fixes at the begining! Speaking about this temptation can be in itself a remedy to it. Well, it is what I think but I am conscious that not everybody can do this . In fact, a lot of people cheat on their lover but don’t tell him (or her) and that , for me, is worse.
I think I’m going to read this book, maybe it will give some answers…We talk about fiction and it is much more easier than in real life!
Hmmmm that is a good question, one I never really pondered. Leaving the infidelity in real life on the side, for me it depends on the story. Sure, I might not pick a book where infidelity is the main theme, but if it is part of the story i don’t mind. Like with every other story, I just hope it’s well done.
No, it’s not a deal breaker for me, but it’s the author’s responsibility to make those characters and the story compelling enough and the emotional payoff big enough for the readers in exchange for the emotional investment you’re asking them to make. A reader will identify with the character being cheated on and feel like they are the ones being wronged. The author has to carefully set the context of the infidelity and make the cheating party relateable and sympathetic, otherwise the reader may not want to go along for the ride.
One of my favorite M/M series is The Administration Series by Manna Francis. The main character is a habitual cheater throughout the seven book series and yet you continue to route for him and completely understand his behavior and why his partner stays with him. In fact, every step forward in their relationship has a bigger impact because you’ve taken the journey with the characters and know what they’ve had to overcome to get there.
Definitely not a deal breaker for me. In fact, one of the reasons why 98% of my romance reading is m/m these days is because we don’t have the same rigid rules of what the writer is and isn’t allowed to do that the mainstream het side has. I can certainly think of situations where a cheating character would make me want to work him over with a tire iron, but I can think of just as many where it’d fit the story perfectly well, and add to the depth and texture of the plot and the relationship arc.
Also, IMO it’s only “cheating” if the other person(s) in the relationship object, or don’t know but would object if they did. If Joe has no problem with Bob picking up one-nighters while he’s on business trips (assuming he plays safe, of course) then Bob is not cheating. If Joe likes to watch Bob with strangers (assuming Bob’s into that too) then Bob’s not cheating. And if they bring home someone to make a one-shot third in their bed, that’s definitely not cheating.
An open or poly relationship is not the same as cheating, and I get impatient when I hear someone pasting the same label on several disparate things; it just muddies the waters.
Angie
I’ve read through most of the comments and have found this discussion fascinating. One thing I didn’t see (I very well may have missed it), is the line between physical infidelity and emotional infidelity. Chris Owen’s Bareback has been mentioned numerous times and is a DIK for me. The physical infidelity is essential to the story IMO but (also IMO) Torr’s betrayal was physical not emotional.
Maybe it is just my personal opinion, but in RL, I would be much more forgiving of physical infidelity. I don’t know why the betrayal of the emotional part of the relationship (ie – a character falling in love with someone else) seem like it would be so much more painful.
That being said, I think that any kind of infidelity can broaden a story and gives characters wonderful opportunities to grow. It is not a deal-breaker for me.
Infidelity stories are OK once in a while, but they’re not exactly feel good stories & sometimes that’s why people read a romance story. I think they can easily turn off your readers who may not react the same way to a story. For example, the oft mentioned Bareback story was just not for me. I didn’t buy into his reason for cheating because it was just the petty, annoying stuff of any relationship–he’s too bossy, doesn’t listen to me, doesn’t understand me etc., that most people work out without banging the cowboy next door. Also he didn’t stop until he was caught which makes him kind of a weasel & blamed the other guy for coming on to me. Now obviously this worked for a lot of folks here. But it just made me not want to ever read another Chris Owen story.
That being said, I think writers should follow their muse & write what story comes to them & what inspires them. I just don’t want to read a lot of stuff written by bandwagon writers who thinks infidelity is now the new hot thing after GFY. (I don’t count things both parties agree is part of their relationship or open relationships as cheating)
I hate typos.. I meant of course, he blamed the other guy for coming onto him.
I agree completely with you about Bareback. No character growth there, unless you consider being constantly crushed and trampled “growth.” Cheating just because he was a cheater. They always have excuses. Toss him aside and find someone worthy of you. I hope this is not the “new fad” as I could barely survive the last fade of BDSM turning up in everything. Also not romantic.
I understand it’s all fiction (although some people don’t seem to get that on these posts and reader reviews) but it’s not what I would call romance in a genre that is supposed to be romance. Makes it harder and harder to find a book to enjoy.
I think infidelity is a part of life, unfortunately, and that sometimes people stray. While I am the kind of person who loves to read about a committed couple I think that there isn’t anything wrong with writing about the struggles a couple can have including infidelity. I think it can keep it real, while hea stories make us feel good if we want a change of pace, and to keep it real, I think a story where a partner strays can be an interesting read.
But I still like to have them get back together perhaps stronger in the end
Funny thing: I agree that Infidelity is a real challenge to relationships and consequently a terrific source of potential conflict for plotting and character development… but I tend to find it a bit of a drag in M/M.
Now partially, I think this has to do with my own romantic history. I’ve never been with a cheater and I’ve never been a cheater. I find ambivalence so boring that people waffling over desire and commitment feels like a snoozefest to me. Realistic, sure. But then so is psoriasis and credit card debt. :no: And that’s not to say that I think everyone commits instantly and unequivocally to lifelong relationships. Rather that the kind of people who get distracted romantically seem essentially dull to me.
In a romance, it’s the work towards and challenges to the commitment that interest me, from within and without. Infidelity just seems kind of small and boring, for the most party… literally pathetic, as in “evocative of pathos” which of course only makes a character less than exciting. Baseline, cheating feels like a tempest in a teapot which makes that particular teapot unappealing to me, specifically.
Off the top of my head, the examples of infidelity that WORK for me in narrative seem to be mostly thrillers, comedies, melodrama of adultery and prostitution… stories of people destroyed by their smallness and blindness: Rigoletto, Camille, Bleak House, all of James M. Cain, most noir and screwball actually. But at core, I find infidelity VERY dramatic but essentially UNromantic without skilled deployment.
On the other hand, I can think of examples of M/M books that made it work for me. But gut level, kneejerk reaction to infidelity is always an eyeroll and a snort. So I guess, as with most things, it depends on execution and context. Life is full of dithering and insincerity, so when it turns up in my heroes, it doesn’t make me think infidelity can be heroic, it gives me a sneaking suspicion that they aren’t heroic at all.
Infidelity is a murder/death of integrity; Romance and its Happily Ever Afters are always about issues of integrity (both as honor and wholeness). So in general: Meh. I’d just as soon read a romance about the glamour of tax law or the seductive power of macaroni. :blink2:
Damon, you are much more eloquent than I could ever hope to be. Even after I commented twice last night, I got off the computer and I kept thinking about this question. I continued to be bothered by the fact that this is m/m romance. So why can’t it be romantic? I agree with you. There is nothing romantic about infidelity. I’m okay reading about characters who have personal demons and histories to deal with in a romantic situation. That can cause a lot of tension and growth within a relationship. But I choose not to read about situations that involve infidelity and casual sex. I’ve made that decision because I’m old enough, experienced enough, and have already witnessed enough of it in my life. Some of those experiences I don’t want to relive and many of the stories I don’t find entertaining or relaxing which is my primary purpose for reading.
Gosh, I’m not good with words either and not in the same dimension as eloquent. I have had the privilege of meeting AWSOME people who have recovered from infidelity as individuals and as a couple. They emerged as changed people with amazing strength,integrity and passion for each other. Their stories were/are so unbelievably inspiring that they would make better fiction then non-fiction. If I have run into these people then others out there must have too. Yes, they are very rare, but they do exist.
I found what they were willing to do to
Remake their intimacy with each other very romantic, astounding actually.
If someone should write about this topic, please do the research necessary so that the story reflects the psychological profile of couples recovering from this. It has a general profile just like people recovering from PTSD, abuse, addiction etc.
If I wanted to read stories with the hidebound conventions of het romance, I’d be reading het romance. I’m not. I don’t. Can’t stand the stuff. Tell me a story, make all the elements work, and you can tell me any kind of story you want.
*kicks Bareback farther up the TBR list, and puts Tricks at the top*
@Damon — the seductive power of macaroni sounds like a challenge 😀
I should add:
I haven’t read Tricks yet, and it’s absolutely on my TBR pile. So when I’m speaking to my general apathy about cheating in M/M I wasn’t referring to your use of it in your writing, Rick, just infidelity as a plot mechanic in general.
My opinion might possibly in the minority, but, personally, I don’t like reading about infidelity. At all.
While I understand how having a couple struggle with issues of trust and intimacy is exciting to some readers, hearing about one character cheat on another (whether emotionally or sexually) makes me really uncomfortable. I don’t find it pleasurable to see a couple break apart because someone strayed (whatever the reason for the cheating might be.)
A good story will have drama and conflict (otherwise it would be boring), but I like to see the characters struggle because of other reasons (self-doubt, family/work pressures, addiction recovery, etc.) rather than because John couldn’t keep it in his pants despite being in love with Tom.
Though I’m sure there are plenty of good-to-amazing books that I’m missing out on (like the often-mentioned Bareback), I get my dramatic kicks when I read M/M from other things (as explained above.) FWIW, my preferences and squicks aren’t a good thing or a bad thing. They simply just are.
OTOH, I’ve enjoyed reading M/M books with open relationships (whether a couple brings a third person in permanently or just for one night or whatever.) It’s weird, I know.
Re the last part of my comment: I’ve seen people elsewhere lump books about open relationships with books about infidelity. I see those two genres as two different things since the first is consensual while the latter is deceitful.
For me, I like reading and writing about people who are real, people with flaws, people who don’t always do the right thing. I like reading and writing about characters who struggle with their choices and sometimes do the wrong thing, in spite of their best intentions. I like characters who, like real people, do or say stupid things, especially if they learn something from it.
Ditto. This is what I like to encounter when I’m reading a contemporary. Characters struggling in a fictional setting and with fictional situations, yes… but they must have that touch of reality and those rather important flaws to make them real to me.
To answer your question: No, infidelity is not a deal breaker for me.
Cheating and infidelity in literature, television and movies is, in my opinion, wildly overdone. It’s boring and trite.
Watch enough of almost any kind of TV show these days and inevitably one character will cheat on another. It’s as if writers have run out of ways to map out interesting story-lines and therefore fall back on this tragic plot device because it will invariably cause “drama”. Blah, I say.
Yes it can and will make a character(s) struggles more real to life, but so can many other situations, choices and/or consequences.
You can have internal conflict within a character’s relationship without falling back on overused themes like cheating or the love triangle or one that’s been exhausted in M/M lately: the younger!man/older!man motif.
To answer the question as simply as possible, yes, when it comes to the romance genre infidelity is a deal breaker for me. I believe that it still has it’s place in literature and storytelling as a whole (even if it is overused), but that doesn’t mean it should be discounted entirely. However, for me, I feel whether it’s realistic or not it’s something I would rather avoid when reading about love.