A few weeks ago a friend phoned to tell me that after much painful inner debate she had concluded that she had to accept the Bible as the literal word of God, and that while God does not hate homosexuals, he does hate homosexuality.
Now before everyone gets worked up over what the Bible does and doesn’t say on the topic of homosexuality, I want to point out that theologians and Biblical scholars can’t agree on this topic, so we’re not going to solve it here in heated comments on Jessewave’s site. According to various Biblical interpretations, homosexuality is wrong. It’s a sin — depending on who you ask. Therefore my friend is not technically “wrong” for listening to her conscience, and while I was shocked and hurt by her words, I wasn’t angry. In fact, I find it impossible to be angry with other people’s religious beliefs, however weird or misguided they seem to me.
So my initial response to her was, “All right. I respect your beliefs. I still love you.” I have a number of conservative friends and family members and I was hopeful we might l manage to salvage some kind of friendship. However, after I got off the phone with her I began to think how difficult it would be to maintain a friendship with someone I am intellectually, philosophically, and spiritually opposed to.
The difference here was that, unlike my uncle the Franciscan priest, my friend was someone I met through my writing. We went on to become real life friends and I saw her on a regular basis. I kept coming back to the (possibly childish) idea that…she knows better.
“Why is this bothering me so much?” I asked my SO.
“Because we’ve had another death in the family,” he replied.
And that’s exactly the truth. I was mourning my friend as though she had died. In some way, she had — or at least the person I thought I knew, had. My understanding of who she was, and our shared core values, was apparently wrong.
And yet…she’s still a kind, caring person of great integrity. That hasn’t changed. It wasn’t easy for her to call me. I find it interesting that we had never discussed religion or spirituality in the course of our friendship, and it turns out that religion and spirituality are crucially important to both of us. We just happen to have conflicting viewpoints about our spiritual paths, and the more I thought about my instinctive response to her, the more I thought that perhaps it was more patronizing than loving. Essentially, I was treating her new-found belief like a bout of mental illness. Which is exactly how it seems to me.
This story doesn’t have a happy ending, by the way. It doesn’t have any ending at all. She will go her way and I will go mine, and I’m glad for the friendship we had. I do still love her although I believe she is wrong in just about every way it’s possible to be wrong.
What came of all this, though, was my reflection — because everything is grist for the writer’s mill — that spiritual struggle gets short shrift in m/m fiction. Apparently my friend had been struggling with her convictions for the three years I knew her. In fiction, these spiritual tug-o-wars tend to be comfortably resolved within a few hundred pages. In real life…they may never be resolved. Sometimes they lead to spiritual fulfillment. Sometimes they lead to religious wars. Sometimes they lead to warped, unhappy lives and a never-ending cycle of ignorance and fear.
Very few characters pray in m/m fiction. Even in my own work — and though I pray myself — I can only think of one or two instances where my characters pray. Of course that perception of godlessness may have more to do with the fact that I tend to avoid stories with religious themes due to initial exposure to romances about sexy priests getting it on. Yep, although I have my problems with organized religion, I have an ingrained dislike of get-your-freak-on monks, pedophile priests, hypocritical ministers, and murderous rabbis. Not that these things don’t exist, but their opposites exist as well, although they seem under-represented in our genre.
Could it be because m/m is still working to free itself from being categorized as erotica that the mix of religion and romance makes for odd bedfellows?
Anyway, I thought this month I’d throw the question out to the readers of this column and leave it to you to share your thoughts on spirituality in m/m fiction. If you’re a writer who addresses the topic, I think it would be informative to hear from you. And it’s always helpful to the rest of us to hear what readers think. What are your thoughts on the way religion is portrayed in m/m fiction? Is it addressed in a serious way or is it pretty much just another kink?
I prefer there to be little to no religion in the books I read. That’s a personal choice, and no, I didn’t have a horrid experience with organized religion in my past. 🙂 As an atheist I suppose it’s not a part of my life and i don’t really care to read about it in my leisure time. I don’t dislike it, I just have no interest and most of us like to connect in some way to the romance characters we read about. We want them to be a bit like us, so ignoring the religion aspect works for me as a reader.
That’s not to say I haven’t read books I’ve enjoyed that have a theme dealing with religion, but I’ve also had a couple of DNF when it went too far for me. But I know other people loved those books. I would be disappointed though if suddenly every m/m had them praying and going to church, because I think honestly, the vast majority of people in North America don’t, even if they say they believe in God.
I would be disappointed though if suddenly every m/m had them praying and going to church, because I think honestly, the vast majority of people in North America don’t, even if they say they believe in God.
Sure. I’m not advocating turning every m/m romance into a religious tract, by any means. I see a difference between spirituality and religion. I think many people ARE spiritual whether they actively practice an official religion or not, and I guess I’m curious as to why so little of that is reflected in m/m fiction.
Assuming that there *is* so little of it and that’s not just a misperception on my part.
Okay, I think I’m a hypocrite. It just occurred to me that in my short story I released on the weekend, there is a conversation between the two guys about the Muslim faith of the one. Oops. Or maybe I should say non-faith, but the practices are discussed, he’s just a non-practicing half-Muslim. (It’s a short part of the story certainly, but addressed.) So ignore me, I would appear to have no idea what I’m talking about. LOL
I think sometimes when we hear the word “religion,” a certain faith or practice or experience pops into mind.
I should probably put more emphasis on “spirituality” because that’s really what I mean in this discussion. I don’t mean to make this exclusive to Christianity by any means.
I’m excited at the idea that you’ve written something with Muslim characters.
Okay, I think I’m a hypocrite. It just occurred to me that in my short story I released on the weekend, there is a conversation between the two guys about the Muslim faith of the one. Oops. Or maybe I should say non-faith, but the practices are discussed, he’s just a non-practicing half-Muslim. (It’s a short part of the story certainly, but addressed.) So ignore me, I would appear to have no idea what I’m talking about. LOL
I will say that is unusual for me. It was written specifically to address the comment somewhere, that there were no Muslim’s in m/m so I wrote one, even if not devout or practicing. Normally I wouldn’t touch on it at all, I don’t think. I’ll shut up now.
I find the topic of religion to be absolutely fascinating and actually will gobble up any book which explores this subject, especially in non traditional way. I was actually raised an atheist too (jewish by birth, but you are always jewish, atheist or not :)), and did not have any religious revelation or anything like that, but the subject of higher power just something I find fascinating. Do I have disagreement with the religion that hates that two people of the same gender may have the nerve to want to be with each other? Yes, I do. I have a picture of my own God in my head who loves and accepts everybody regardless of their choice of the partner and thats enough for me. So what I am trying to say is any exploration of religious topic no matter how much it twists traditional dogma is fine by me, or if it deals with traditional religion is fine by me too.
Of course the recent “Between saints and sinners” by Marie Sexton was the book which deals with religion that I loved, I have read some reviews and know for some readers there was too much religion and preaching in there, for me this one was perfect.
Trying to think, as I mentioned in another post “To Save a Shining Soul” by S.A.Garcia, has religious or spiritual not traditional theme which is very close to my own views and I enjoyed it a lot.
Joshua Dagon’s “Fallen” and “Demon tears” plays with angels theme in such lovely way IMO.
I guess as long as author does not preach, but uses religion theme to tell a good story, I am more than fine with it. If author does not use religious theme at all, that is fine by me too.
Thanks for the post Josh.
I guess as long as author does not preach, but uses religion theme to tell a good story, I am more than fine with it. If author does not use religious theme at all, that is fine by me too.
That’s the instinctive resistance I feel. I’m afraid I’m either going to be offended with gross blasphemy or I’m going to be hit over the head with the Bible.
As Tam mentioned, we like to be able to identify with the characters in the stories we read, so I’m interested in seeing characters with some kind of spiritual life that reflects a balanced reality.
Thanks for those recommendations.
Faith and religion are a minor theme in my first novel, which will be out in a couple of months, but I have another in progress that (assuming I ever finish it!) will be pretty much immersed in the topic. As someone who was raised in a household centered around the Chritian faith, I’ve had my own struggles with Biblical interpretations, and writing about it is one way I’ve been working through it. I don’t agree with literalism not because I don’t think the Bible is the word of God but because, well, which interpretation should I take literally? There are thousands of translations, and they don’t all say exactly the same things.
I haven’t read many M/M stories with heavy religious themes, actually. There are some that deal with the Amish, and one I can think of where a main character was studying to be a rabbi. Religious backgrounds do come up a lot, but mostly in terms of friends/family who disapprove of the characters’ orientation.
I’d actually love to read more stories where faith and religion are just another part of a character’s life, with minimal angst over it (at least in the present). Recommendations are welcome! 🙂
I haven’t read many M/M stories with heavy religious themes, actually. There are some that deal with the Amish, and one I can think of where a main character was studying to be a rabbi. Religious backgrounds do come up a lot, but mostly in terms of friends/family who disapprove of the characters’ orientation.
Given that more and more m/m fiction deals with characters struggling to come to terms with their sexuality, I’m surprised that more m/m fiction doesn’t address the influence of religion. After all, where does so much of that guilt and confusion and fear come from if not religion?
I think it’s great you’re addressing those issues.
I think it IS a somewhat neglected area, but then, things are changing so quickly right now that it can be hard to keep a story timely. On the WIP, even having chosen a denomination (Episcopal) and a state (Tennessee) that are firmly enough in their respective camps to minimize the likelihood of big changes, I’m still having to watch closely to be sure new laws and doctrines don’t screw up the plot! 🙂
I’m still having to watch closely to be sure new laws and doctrines don’t screw up the plot!
I can imagine!
Because for the very same reason you pointed out about everyone having their own interpretation of the bible everyone has their own set of baggage concerning organized religion especially when you are gay. Usually not very positive might I add.
I just figure it this way. I read Romance or in this case Gay Romance for the escape. Not to listen to the writer pontificate on their beliefs or their politics or some agenda of that sort.
I frankly joke about this idea of religion brought into Gay Romance or “inspirational” Gay Romance. Because it does not sound like something that will appeal to the type of people that read Gay Romance. It does not sound very open minded or inclusive.
So as a writer you can write what you want but as a reader I am going to stay away I have more than enough heavy handed tropes that conflict with my political views to pile through as it is without adding yet another weak link to the chain.
I just figure it this way. I read Romance or in this case Gay Romance for the escape. Not to listen to the writer pontificate on their beliefs or their politics or some agenda of that sort.
Sure. But I also remember being impressed by a couple of posts you wrote a long time back about the fact that in the (then) vast majority of m/m fiction there seemed to be so little struggle to come to terms with sexuality — and that the world in general seemed equally and unrealistically accepting.
And I do think that, for many, early ingrained religious indoctrination is part of why our society has so much difficulty with the idea of sex. ALL sex.
Describing a character’s struggle and growth or at least showing the ever so common experience of homophobia in that growth is one thing.
I think suggesting that religious based gay romance stories are gonna sell like hot cakes is kinda whack though.
As I said, I see enough fails from watching writers rant politically in Gay Romance and I find it funny people insist on “preaching to the choir” because that is exactly what they are doing and it unfortunately has a negative effect in that it ruins the romance story every time I have seen it done.
My rule of thumb is still politics and religion are just plain bad dinner topics and I consider gay romance to not be a particularly good choice for that type of discussion either.
If people want to write gay fiction that’s a whole other conversation. There are tons of stories out there that do just that but they are heavy and not very escapist by nature of the topic.
Religion and politics are just two topics I find generally not handled well either at the dinner table or in Romance so I still say not my thing.
Though tis sadly true that I am woefully under-caffienated this morning, I must say I don’t recall any stories I’ve read portraying faith (of any denomination or sect) in a positive light. (I’m sure there have been a few; my brain’s just not working yet, LOL.) I’ve also universally found that the fact that I’m devout is most often met with raised eyebrows, at best (and you-can’t-be-serious glee, at worst), among fellow writers, readers and other professionals.
I could be wrong. I hope I am. But in my albeit limited experience, nearly everyone thinks I can’t write or read m/m and be religious, too. The cognitive dissonance is assumed. I don’t look at that as a failing in the m/m community — not at all. I’ve met plenty in my own denomination and others who…well. But believers like me aren’t as few and far between as I sometimes think people suppose and THAT is a failing in the faith community.
Anyway, I think there hasn’t been a lot of serious exploration of religion in m/m because the bigots are so very loud and so very cruel. It sets up an almost Pavlovian response to faith issues that is difficult to see/work beyond.
I’ll have to pick up Marie Sexton’s new one. Sounds intriguing.:D
I could be wrong. I hope I am. But in my albeit limited experience, nearly everyone thinks I can’t write or read m/m and be religious, too. The cognitive dissonance is assumed.
It’s fascinating, isn’t it? But maybe that comes partly from the on-going struggle to free m/m from the erotica tag. Because while m/m can be erotic, it doesn’t have to be.
Yet how crazy conservative is the notion that healthy libido and spirituality would have to be in conflict?
In a way, yes, it’s crazy to assume that they have to be in conflict, but if you look at the history of Christianity, it’s not. The early church fathers mostly believed that sex was for procreation and never recreation, and it was an idea that persisted right up through modern times. In other religions that wasn’t the case, but in Christianity (and Catholocism specifically), a lot of doctorine dealth with the importance of (basically) not enjoying sex.
Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart. And one I’ve been writing on for a while: http://valarltd.livejournal.com/992819.html
I like characters that have some spiritual dimension. I loved Kiernan Kelly’s CORNFED. If the guys are all just mind and body, moving through a world with no culture, this is a little dull after a while.
Full confession: I am a recovering fundamentalist. I used religion to hold the closet door shut for many years. I am now pagan, and an ordained minister.
I try for realistic, if not always positive depictions of faith and religion, of ALL faiths.
Sure, I have the character who is all “I’m in my closet, covering Teh Ghey with Jesus!” and I have the lesbian Episcopalian priest.
I have the man who brushes his fingers over his mazuzah without thinking and the vaguely Judeo-Christian Bear (anthropomorphic animal) who was raised on Bible stories and Big Band music.
We’ve had Egyptian gods (and a character quietly take up worshiping them after the encounter), cultural Islam, Native American beliefs, Medieval Catholicism, active Jews, Christian Theocratic Dystopias, pantheism and others.
Most of my characters come with some sort of belief system, and there are cultural markers in the world around them as well. In the Seattle of December 2083, there are trees, creches and menorahs, but also sun and moon faces.
I wrote one of those much-maligned gay inspirationals, SHELL SHOCKED, and it seemed to be well received. Some people said it was too preachy, others said not enough detail. But on the whole, most folks found it balanced out.
I wrote one of those much-maligned gay inspirationals, SHELL SHOCKED, and it seemed to be well received. Some people said it was too preachy, others said not enough detail. But on the whole, most folks found it balanced out.
That’s about the most you can hope for.
I had no idea your work was so richly and spiritually diverse.
Unless someone is a fairly dedicated follower of my work, they usually don’t know. My characters may or may not practice. For one, the most Muslim moment he has is when he’s converting the Islamic calendar to the Julian to figure his age.
BTW: I have no idea how this posted ended up clear up here instead of at the bottom. I didn’t hit reply.
Hi, Kari. I am always curious about this, and perhaps this is the venue to ask. How do you reconcile BDSM with Christianity? I was taught that I could only serve and worship God, and yet in BDSM the sub sometimes in a position like “worshiping” or subservient in all things to his Dom. I am now an agnostic, so my question is purely for curiosity sake. 🙂
Another great post. I wouldn’t mind reading a story that dealt with religion, if it was done well. I have read too many that crossed a line for me – getting your freak on or an abuse of power, which usually leads to getting your freak on.
Yes, not that these abuses don’t occur, but I’d like to see a more balanced representation.
I guess religion is just not one of my kinks.
I’m not a huge fan of religion in my m/m books, nor in the mainstream books that I read. I did think Marie Sexton’s recent book was well done and not overbearing. Not being all that familiar with the Mormon faith, I found it educational. Which is ok as long as the writer depicts the subject accurately.
I am not a writer but I think that with religious, political or other ‘hot button’ topics, you run the risk of alienating your readers whose views can be vastly different from your own. Unless the book is intended to be a political or religious statement, it’s probably best not to overdo the theme.
Which is ok as long as the writer depicts the subject accurately.
Here’s a good point. I think some of the stuff I have read seems to be written by people who had zero experience of the faith they were portraying. So there are a lot of cliches.
I’m not a big fan of cliche in general.
I don’t mind religious references in books I read as long as there is no overt preaching. But I run from any book that has an “inspirational” tag at Amazon. At the same time, having a single character with a great deal of faith/spiritual connection as an emotional or ethical center to a story is fine by me. As long as they don’t moralize. Spirituality is grounding and centering, Religion is divisive and controlling (IMHO of course) and as shorthand, that POV seems to work best in fiction – or at least the fiction I like.
Spirituality is grounding and centering, Religion is divisive and controlling (IMHO of course) and as shorthand, that POV seems to work best in fiction – or at least the fiction I like.
This is my own take on it so naturally books that reflect that attitude hit home for me.
One of the best books I’ve read on the subject was the James Colton novel THE OUTWARD SIDE about a young, ambitious minister’s attempt to come to terms with his homosexuality. I found that struggle very believable in its portrayal of the pressure that comes from within any small community.
Thoughtful post, Josh.
Jonty, once of my Cambridge Fellows, prays, and his faith is as much a part of his life as his love for cakes and rugby.
I also have a Regency curate who wrestles with his desire for another bloke (and is helped by an eccentric ghost/angel) – Lee Rowan described it as a ‘gay inspirational’ story!
I also have a Regency curate who wrestles with his desire for another bloke (and is helped by an eccentric ghost/angel) – Lee Rowan described it as a ‘gay inspirational’ story!
Yes! I can’t see why that would have to be a contradiction in terms.
I immediately thought of your “Cambridge Fellows” series, Charlie, when I read Josh’s post.
I love Jonty’s character in this series. His religious beliefs seem to affect almost all facets of his life, but he and his family are able to interpret their religous beliefs to accept his homosexuality. His is a loving God, which I can also accept, even though I consider myself agnostic, with a fairly strong aversion to organised religion.
Religion is a bit of a scary topic for me. I have gone through a similar experience as what you’ve describe Josh except the person wasn’t a close friend but a co-worker. I experienced her transition from how I met her and than to her after being saved. She was a bit fanatical carrying the bible around with her, but she has since really settled into it and mostly she is the same. I just don’t give her any openings to start a hot topic discussions I.e. who I’m dating, marriage or my beliefs in general.
As far as reading m/m with a religious theme, its fine with me to an extent. I find some books address it well like Ronald Donough’s Common Sons series and I like Marie Sexton’s Between Sinners and Saints. If the book is about someone internal struggle with religion, I’m fine with it. If the book were to get to preachy I would probably have a problem with it.
Like my co-worker. I like her a lot. I just stay away from having certain conversations with her.
Thanks Josh great column.
I find some books address it well like Ronald Donough’s Common Sons series and I like Marie Sexton’s Between Sinners and Saints. If the book is about someone internal struggle with religion, I’m fine with it. If the book were to get to preachy I would probably have a problem with it.
I suspect — maybe unfairly — in our genre the preaching is more likely to go the other way. That religion is all bad, that spirituality is for the ignorant and the fearful.
I think a fascinating real life development was the apology of midwestern ministers to the gay community a week or so ago. Did anyone catch that?
Which is why I’m interested to see how many recommendations there are for books with protags who have some kind of spiritual life.
I haven’t read enough books in our genre to know. However I appreciate when an author is able to realistically have the protag come to terms with how they feel about themselves and how they feel about religion.
Yes. As someone else mentioned, I’m always looking for characters with depth and dimension.
Same here, Lisa.
More on topic, I would like to see more references in M/M to struggles with spirituality versus being gay. While it was subtle, I feel like Jake’s story did actually touch on this very well. His discomfort with being gay was very clearly partly because of his Catholicism and his turning – even if briefly on page – to that faith in a time of crisis, was very realistic and in no way disparaging of the character or his faith. At the same time, I didn’t feel like I was being smacked in the head with it.
But yesterday I read an article in The Atlantic about evangelicals that are gay working with therapists to accept themselves and stay living a straight life at the same time. That breaks my heart and the article was plenty. A novel in that vein would likely be a DNF.
But yesterday I read an article in The Atlantic about evangelicals that are gay working with therapists to accept themselves and stay living a straight life at the same time. That breaks my heart and the article was plenty. A novel in that vein would likely be a DNF.
Depending on how it was handled, yes. That could be pretty depressing, and I admit to steering clear of depressing books at this time in my life. 😉
As an atheist I don’t seek out the books with religious themes on purpose. As Tam said, I like to have something in common with the characters I read about. The book, the characters have to have something more in them to keep me interested. Additionally, and Kari pointed this out, there is this uniform treatment of religious themes in m/m romance with bigotry in the forefront that is getting old. The bigotry is out there, we all know it and abhor it, but there is more to the spirituality and religion than that. There is more to the people, gay and straight, than that. There are congregations, religions and believers that have different mindsets and I would like to see that sometimes in gay romance. You yourself said that spirituality is important to you, although you have problems with organized religion (I so hear you!). For me, as a reader, it would be interesting to see how a gay man or woman reconcile their sexuality with their beliefs. In the end, a good book is a good book and it will keep me interested even if I don’t have any special interest in the themes it deals with.
Finally, I am really sorry you’ve lost your friend.
For me, as a reader, it would be interesting to see how a gay man or woman reconcile their sexuality with their beliefs. In the end, a good book is a good book and it will keep me interested even if I don’t have any special interest in the themes it deals with.
This is my thought. I’d like to read a believable struggle where there are no cartoony villains, simply the struggle to reconcile religious upbringing with reality. Which I think a lot of us go through at some point or another.
Finally, I am really sorry you’ve lost your friend.
I’ve come to the conclusion that spiritual questioning is never a bad thing, and that such a smart, honest person will perhaps eventually be able to balance science and fact with faith. Because in my opinion, God — whatever God might be — gave us brains intending us to question and think and consider.
Religious struggle is very personal struggle to me, even until now. I was raised and became a very devout Christian. I was once in your friend’s shoes, I couldn’t reconcile homosexuality with religion. Unlike her, however, I took a different path. I examined my religion closely, analytically, and found it wanting. Then I left it and became an agnostic, but like I said previously on the GR thread, the struggle doesn’t really end.
You see, among my friends and family, I am an outlier. I live in a Christian family, my extended family is Christian, and almost all of my friends are too. None of them know about my agnosticism. I’ve told some friends, but I don’t know if they remember. As for the subject of homosexuality, the majority (and by majority I mean around 90 – 95%) still think homosexuality is sinful & wrong. Even many psychologists & psychiatrists here still consider it mental health disorder. So, if I have to stop being friend with people who don’t accept homosexuality or agnosticism… You get the idea. In some ways, I know what it feels to be in the closet. I think I learn to compartmentalize to whom I can talk to about different issues.
Still books with religious theme fascinate me, including M/M romance. Not the preaching kind though, I can’t take it even if the preaching is somewhat positive. But of course, I have different standards when it comes to YA books.
I do plan to tackle this subject, no matter how briefly, in my next project. I still don’t know how to resolve the struggle. Perhaps it will also resolve my own? Or I have to end up using a cookie cutter answer “God loves all and you just misinterpret Bible” I don’t even believe myself??
Sorry for rambling.
the struggle doesn’t really end.
That’s it of course. When the issue is brought up, all too often it’s handled as though it were simply a matter of miscommunication and could be resolved comfortably in 320 pages.
It’s good to see so many book recs for stories that handle these issues believably.
Hm…I am thinking of what is considered believable. Everyone seems to have different opinion about if an author handle a subject believably or not. For example, people seem to be divided on whether Marie Sexton handled the topic well in Sinners and Saints ( I haven’t read it so I don’t have opinion).
At a first glance, Jeff Erno’s Trust Me seems to portray Christianity in a cliche way: a fundamentalist church and another more tolerant & loving church. Some would probably say it’s 2 dimensional portrayal of Christianity. However, after I read Jeff’s blog, it seems that he based the story on his own life experience which was very similar to the protag in his book. Therefore, it IS realistic but will others see it as believable?
It’s not an easy thing to do, integrating spirituality into a character…any character — straight, gay, or whatever. I did it in Hard Fall (and tackled different aspects of it in Spin Out — which is the sequel and should be out this summer).
I think the basic for writers is, “Don’t Preach.”
If it is part of who you’re character is let it flow through how they think and how they act, but don’t whip out the big religious icon of your choice and start banging folks over the head with it. Fiction is not a forum for proselytizing.
And, maybe that’s the problem sometimes. I think the religious aspects were handled well in Hard Fall(I’ll leave it up to the readers to decide — but I get good comments) because I’m not a member of that religion, or any religion. I grew up Episcopal in a family that went to church and that church particularly b/c that’s where all the “best” families in town went. It was “business.”
I think that distance allowed me as a writer to respect this character and his choices without feeling I had to convey a religious message in the book.
I think the basic for writers is, “Don’t Preach.”
Yes. In either direction.
Excellent advice.
Josh, I’m not so much on the depressing books at the moment either, and I’m a flaming atheist, but religious belief could certainly be used to give a character depth and realism and I’d be cool with it.
BTW, speaking of biblical-literalism, see “The Year of Living Biblically: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible,” by A.J. Jacobs.
but religious belief could certainly be used to give a character depth and realism and I’d be cool with it.
Right. It’s not so much that I need a particular viewpoint as I’d like to see *some viewpoint. Not all the time, of course, and not from every character.
BTW, speaking of biblical-literalism, see “The Year of Living Biblically: One Man’s Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible,” by A.J. Jacobs.
Ah. Interesting.
i think that if we write realistically about a person (character) then we must also write about the role of religion (ease, unease, dismay, discord) that our characters have with religious institutions. the interplay between sex and faith is as real as any other intersections of our identity. without turning the faith practice into a shallow trope. like writing about the interplay between other difficult identities like race or genderfluidity i think the genre is richer for it! :0) marie sexton’s most recent book and james buchanan’s hard fall series do a great job illustrating how faith and love and sex exist in fully fledged men…
:0)
-kkm
i think that if we write realistically about a person (character) then we must also write about the role of religion (ease, unease, dismay, discord) that our characters have with religious institutions.
Exactly. Especially since our country does seem to be suffering such a…spiritual schism right now. Or so it seems to me.
Wow, thanks for the nod.
It was not an easy task to get all those aspects into one book.
oh. and za maxfield’s 3rd st. nacho’s book (jacob’s ladder i think) also skillfully incorporates faith and love in an m/m story…
:0)
-kkm
ZA is one of several writing friends who seems very grounded in her faith, and I think it shows in her work.
I address Hawaiian spirituality extensively in almost all my books. My Phantom Lover series – 16 books and counting – alone has a strong spiritual basis. I am grateful that I write from the heart and my readers have not only embraced my characters and an aspect of religion they may not know about, but many write to me asking for how they can learn more about it. there is a wonderful book you should tell your ex friend about- Jesus and Homosexuality. It will open her eyes.
Jesus and Homosexuality. It will open her eyes.
I’ll have a look for it.
I saw the apology that the priest wrote, maybe if there were more preachers like him opinions wouldn’t be so polarised. I do take part in organised religion, but the God I pray to accepts all of us, if he created us, who are we to criticise his work! There are bigger problems in the world than who is loving who, so long as it is SS&C. In books, imo it needs to be a part ofthe characters life. I just finished Trucker and Pup by Drew Hunt which has a jewish protag, he turns to the synagogue in time of crisis, as I think a lot of people turn to churches/temples in times of trouble. A book that preached at me would be a dnf, just as people who try to tell me that theirs is the only ‘truth’ annoys me.
I wonder if part of the issue of ‘sin’ is generational, I mean in the UK homosexuality has been legal for 40 odd years, many of the preachers/influencers in daily life are still of the generations before homosexuality became legal let alone accepted. Maybe in 20 years time this discussion will be moot?
Maybe in 20 years time this discussion will be moot?
I think that’s a good point, Jan. While the US certainly isn’t one of the most backward and repressive nations, we’re not the most forward thinking either. In 20 years maybe this will be moot.
Spirituality vs. Religion is always interesting. As a reader, I always like a character who seems to have a sound moral background whether they describe themselves as spiritual, religious or neither. The battle to reconcile oneself with traditional religious dogma is always a struggle whatever ones sexual orientation. I have been amused many times by characters in mainstrem romance wondering what their priest/preacher would think if they could see them now. I think, as you mentioned earlier, Josh, it’s more an issue of sexuality in general than sexual orientation. Whatever the case, I don’t want to be preached at in any of my reading choices.
As a reader, I always like a character who seems to have a sound moral background whether they describe themselves as spiritual, religious or neither.
Very true! I want characters who have a moral compass (even if it’s not my own). I like characters who make mistakes and then attempt to redeem themselves. In fact, redemption and forgiveness is one of my favorite themes for my own work.
I fall into the spiritual but not religious catagory. I think it would be hard to write a book detailing spirituality. It’s something that is so ingrained. It manifests in the way I treat people, in the way I conduct myself in my daily life. Not realy something that is verbalized or even describable. I read Between Saints and Sinners and I enjoyed it. So I can’t say I wouldn’t read a book with religious overtones, but it’s not something I seek out. I know there are people who struggle spirituality and sexuality, I’m just not one of them. I don’t feel the need to judge anyone for what they do or don’t believe.
Beautifully said, Marilyn.
I hadn’t really considered that religion would need to be part of the PsyCop series–after all, it’s a paranormal romp. But as I saw that if my protagonist can see that there is a “soul” (or spirit or astral body or something) and it does go somewhere after death, then religion became a topic. Vic, the protagonist, is an agnostic because he was never raised any consistent religion, and he’s content to think he doesn’t have enough facts to claim to definitively know what’s out there. His best friend is Christian and firmly believes in guardian angels, and another friend is Buddhist and won’t even kill a roach.
It surprised me that in my Channeling Morpheus series, Wild Bill’s lapsed Catholicism played such a big part in his personality. But maybe that shouldn’t have been a surprise since he was so motivated by guilt and obligation.
I don’t suppose religion needs to be addressed in every single story, but as a writer it’s a good idea to understand what your characters’ beliefs are, because those beliefs will inform the rest of his or her personality in some way.
I don’t suppose religion needs to be addressed in every single story, but as a writer it’s a good idea to understand what your characters’ beliefs are, because those beliefs will inform the rest of his or her personality in some way.
Exactly!
I remember when I was writing Strange Fortune and fretting to Nicole Kimberling about where — if — Christianity and Hinduism and Islam might figure into all this. It was dizzying trying to work it all out. The idea that none of them existed in this world was almost short-circuiting.
Michael in the Larton Chronicles was a devout Catholic but managed to combine that with being gay quite happily, and Robert at least played the organ in the protestant village church. But I wouldn’t exactly call that book a prime example of spirituality.
Now there you go dragging one of my all time favorite books into the conversation. 😀
While I’m an atheist, I do accept that not all my characters are, especially not the historica lones. “Test of Faith”, which I co-wrote with Raev Gray, deals with religion versus religion (and a few other themes), and is set in the Crusades. Talk about a fraught period in history.
All those characters who’d very likely have to face religious taboos (William and Robert in “Lion ok Kent”) have to make the decision to defy religion and its authorities or find a way “around” it. Personally, I find defying expectations and defining your own faith (what do I want tto live/fight/die for) fascinating… but very rarely in my stories – if ever – does organized religion come out on top.
As a fully seculiarized European, I’d struggle very hard to have a different “moral” in my story, but I accept that some of my characters are at odds. I have one characte driven almost to self-destruction by Catholic Guilt. My character have to find their own way or, quite frankly, shatter and never recover.
While I’m an atheist, I do accept that not all my characters are, especially not the historica lones. “Test of Faith”, which I co-wrote with Raev Gray, deals with religion versus religion (and a few other themes), and is set in the Crusades. Talk about a fraught period in history.
Yeah, I think it’s very difficult to ignore issues of faith in historicals. And of course we’re not the first generation to question and challenge and try to find some kind of spiritual compromise where necessary.
As I read through the comments from both the writers and the readers, the first question I had was, can someone define for me the difference between spirituality and faith as opposed to religion? I have a problem with understanding exactly where the difference lies between the two. I understand spirituality and faith and prayer. I also understand organized religion. However, when you talk about having more m/m books with spirituality in them, are you referring to more spirituality, treat others the way you want to be treated, or more religious themes, as in the conflict within an individual because of religious background?
I had an interesting experience last week of volunteering with a group of people who are fighting to prevent the passage of a marriage amendment to the constitution in my state. One of the woman I was working with is Catholic and lesbian. Her face positively glowed as she explained to one of the people who stopped by our table how her parish priest warmly welcomed the GLBT community to the church and how important that is to her life. It was very heartwarming to know that there are faith communities working for all people.
As I read through the comments from both the writers and the readers, the first question I had was, can someone define for me the difference between spirituality and faith as opposed to religion?
Obviously I can only speak for myself here, but to me religion is the organized practice through rule and ritual of a particular spiritual belief.
So while all religion is spiritual (in theory) not all spirituality is recognized or formal religion.
I’m sure there are many better definitions.
can someone define for me the difference between spirituality and faith as opposed to religion?
My personal definition is that faith is personal and individual, while religion is an organized system that allows you to find and share with others whose beliefs match yours. Faith is between you and your deity; religion is between you and other believers. (In a very brief nutshell!)
I’d like to see stories address either or both aspects, actually!
I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the number of stories and books being recced here today. There’s clearly a lot more to choose from then I realized.
Religion: Believing that one sect is the be all and the end all of the world. Go watch DOGMA (which is one of my favorite movies EVER). It so explains how religion shapes faith and things taken as faith (Dogma) become part of the religion.
Faith: I call myself a spiritual atheist. I do not believe in “a god(des)” figure. I do believe there is something far bigger than we all understand out there. I have encountered it. I have been scared shitless and brought to wonder by it.
Does it give a rat’s ass about any of us…no, not in my estimation. That’s why the spiritual atheist…we should do good b/c it makes our lives and the lives of the next generation better, is there a father/mother figure watching, Hell No.
My faith tells me I am a small part of the whole.
Religion would try and define the massive “not me” of the universe and layer on trowel fulls of Dogma on the top.
You reminded me of my own experiences with “it”, but we got slightly different impressions of it. 🙂
My experiences left me with the firm belief that it doesn’t care what we do as long as we are true to ourselves (more complex than that, but basically), and that we all matter as part of the whole. Pretty much like yours.
Except I also got the message that my individuality is important, and something is seeing and noticing what I do (but not judging).
The most important thing about spirituality for me is that each person’s is their own, and they have free reign in figuring it out.
And, you know, since I have your attention — I freaking love Personal Demons.
In real life, I have little patience for religious nonsense (thanks to my colonial teacher in a Protestant school who always starts bible stories with the sentence “some people believe this happened….” ;P), but I don’t mind religious belief in a m/m story for characterization and plot device. I just see it as just another part of being human – sometimes we talk nonsense, sometimes we are self-righteous, sometimes we just want peace on earth – religious people don’t have the same motive or even belief.
However, most of the time, talking about religion is also, not sexy (sorry, believers!) and yes, it does get in the way with the erotica and romance element in a m/m story. I suppose that’s why religion is mostly associated with angst in a m/m story, usually another obstacle to overcome. I read “Fancy Dancer” by Patricia Nell Warren long time ago, it’s well written, but even her closeted gay priest seemed pathetic some times to me.
I suppose, faith is such a personal thing that it can easily be a turn-off or deal-breaker for some romance readers. Well, didn’t they just release a research saying that atheists/agnostis have better sex life than believers? ;P
However, most of the time, talking about religion is also, not sexy (sorry, believers!)
LOL
In the same way that thinking of your parents or your nieces and nephews reading your work has an inhibiting effect on writing sex scenes. 😀
and yes, it does get in the way with the erotica and romance element in a m/m story. I suppose that’s why religion is mostly associated with angst in a m/m story, usually another obstacle to overcome.
I think it is unquestionably mostly viewed as an obstacle to overcome or at least to come to terms with. Which makes sense given the popular interpretation of how “God” views homosexuality.
Hi Josh,
You do not steer away from tough topics. I wonder if there isn’t the same “sin of the flesh” struggle for some in the het romance world resulting in “Christian” romances for those that want their protagonists straight and married before engaging in (sharp intake of breath)S.E.X.
There are a few writers who have incorporated the struggle or the attempt to reconcile faith with their sexual preference. One that comes to mind is Dr. Michael Schiefelbein, who spent ten years studying for the priesthood before leaving the church – he wrote “Body and Blood,” which is a thriller/mystery incorporating a priest protagonist questioning and trying to come to terms with his faith and his sexuality. He has also written a series of vampire novels as well, which I have not read since it isn’t really my interest.
For me religion and spirituality are completely separate – I won’t be able to reconcile religious dogma with my Christian spirituality and that is okay. I don’t need to defend it with those on the religious right or with atheists.
Thanks yet again for an interesting as well as thoughtful article.
I wonder if there isn’t the same “sin of the flesh” struggle for some in the het romance world resulting in “Christian” romances for those that want their protagonists straight and married before engaging in (sharp intake of breath)S.E.X.
I haven’t read a lot of Christian or inspirational romances, but the ones I have read left me wondering who the hell those people were. They tend to have such a narrow, unrealistic, joyless view of faith.
Granted, they don’t view their lives as narrow, unrealistic, or joyless. But the Christians I know drink wine, dance, make love…in moderation, of course.
I guess that’s why I find fundamentalism such a strange, alien thing.
There are a few writers who have incorporated the struggle or the attempt to reconcile faith with their sexual preference. One that comes to mind is Dr. Michael Schiefelbein, who spent ten years studying for the priesthood before leaving the church – he wrote “Body and Blood,” which is a thriller/mystery incorporating a priest protagonist questioning and trying to come to terms with his faith and his sexuality.
I do remember that book. He leaves the priesthood in the end, if I recall correctly. I’m not sure that’s a satisfying compromise. Then again the idea of strict celibacy for all Catholic priests and nuns is something I find problematical.
Thanks Josh for such a thoughtful and personal post.
*hugs* :hug:
This friendly thoughtful dialog is a great reflection of the good people in the genre and the community here at Wave’s. Great discussion.
I’ll add Alan Chin’s books to the list. I come from a tennis family so I read Match Maker.The main Character is Buddhist and heavily influences the narration etc.
HHMMMMMM as far as my own spirituality? I became a Christian as an adult after being an atheist/agnostic. I have such an overwhelming knowledge of God’s Grace that I find the churches’ treatment of people outside “the box” incomprehensible.
Thanks again for the great discussion everyone!
HHMMMMMM as far as my own spirituality? I became a Christian as an adult after being an atheist/agnostic. I have such an overwhelming knowledge of God’s Grace that I find the churches’ treatment of people outside “the box” incomprehensible.
Thanks again for the great discussion everyone!
Thank you, Reggie.
I think that there are two kinds of Christians in the world — and maybe this is true of all faiths. Some are motivated to believe out of fear of what happens beyond our earthly life. And some are motivated by trust and a sense of joy in this world and the next.
Fear as a motivator rarely brings good results. Not that I’ve observed anyway.
Josh,
As a reader I enjoy M/M stories that deal with protags coming to terms with their sexuality. But when I read the blurb if I sense a heavy religious theme I tend to back off, because like most I don’t want to be preached to.
One book I did end up reading, however, that I thought got the mix of religion in the plot just right was “Trust Me”, by Jeff Erno. I probably would not have read it if I hadn’t liked some of his other stories with no religious themes. In this one, one of the MC’s is a devout Christian Fundamentalist and a teen. I’m sure you can see where all this was heading.
The point for me is if an author wants to include religion in their story, and can make it integral to the plot I don’t have an issue with it. It’s really like everything else – whatever makes for a good story is good for me, the reader.
Thanks for another interesting, thoughtful subject, Josh.
The point for me is if an author wants to include religion in their story, and can make it integral to the plot I don’t have an issue with it. It’s really like everything else – whatever makes for a good story is good for me, the reader.
And really that’s just good writing. You don’t want to preach to the reader regardless of the topic. It’s show don’t tell. You want to convince the reader of your agenda through your storytelling, not by hitting them over the head until they’re too numb to argue. 😉
A lot of time I feel left out of stories with heavy religious content because they are often centered on THE BOOK and how to interpret it. Which is not spirituality to me. It’s a hard discussion to appreciate if you’ve never read the bible. I appreciate more when the religious/spiritual discussion centers around topics like how to relate to the world, choices or just the cultural impact of religion.
I appreciate more when the religious/spiritual discussion centers around topics like how to relate to the world, choices or just the cultural impact of religion.
Yes. To start with Christianity isn’t the only religion or spiritual influence in the world. If we want to get technical, it’s a pretty new faith.
I am still trying to come to terms with a recent news story on BBC, which said that the Church of England is discussing allowing gay clergy in committed partnerships to become Bishops if they are celibate. Like that is somehow a good solution, cos celibacy works so well in the Catholic Church. All I can see is 2 unhappy people rather than one. 😕
OK agnostic here. In fiction I like to be part of different experiences- countries, societies, jobs, relationships and if religion is a manifestation of that I’m easy. I just like a light touch and no cliches.
Thanks for the thought provoking post.
I have problems with the concept of lifelong celibacy. Probably not germane to this conversation.
I agree with you on the light touch and no cliches. A good rule of thumb for all writing, really.
I’m an Early Christian specialist and I’m agnostic. I also study and teach about the founding of Islam and Buddhism. And, I’m openly bisexual. Many people have asked how I can be a scholar of religion and be agnostic. Interestingly, they tend to leave my bisexuality out the question. For me being spiritual is not the same as being religious. I have many friends who are devout Christians (ranging in all denominations) and who are Muslim. We have wonderful theological discussions, usually over great food. They accept me for who I am, and I accept their religious convictions without criticism. Although I’m not religious and I am very much a spiritual person (Marilyn’s definition of what spirituality means sums up my definition best).
IMO, many m/m stories are quite spiritual, whether the author intended them to be or not. In the AE series, Jake’s struggles stem from not only his religious upbringing, but also reflect his search for his true self, which for me is part of a person’s spirituality.
I’m currently reading Urban and Roux’s Sticks & Stones, which incorporates elements of religious belief and spirituality. When Ty’s family sits down to dinner, his partner Zane assumes that grace will be said before anyone can eat. The prayer itself is not written in the story, but the authors reference this intimate moment with the family in two sentences. Zane struggles with addiction and PTSD (and perhaps somewhat with his sexuality). I see his interaction with Ty’s family and with nature (the story unfolds while the characters are on a week-long hike) as Zane’s developing spirituality. He wants to be a good person both for himself and for his partner, and he wants to believe that he can contribute positively to the world. I don’t know if Urban and Roux consciously thought about spirituality when writing the story. But, from POV as a reader, this is what I take away from my reading of it.
Sorry for such a long post! I’ll end by saying that I hope you and your friend can come to some sort of a mutual agreement that will enable you to resume your friendship. It’s never easy to lose a friend, especially over something like this.
Shae and Jaime, thank you both. I think there is a clear difference between spiritual and religious. When viewed with both of your respective definitions, and Josh’s definition as well, I think there are many more m/m books with spiritual themes than we realize. The journey of self-discovery and self-acceptance often involves one’s religious background or current practices, but isn’t necessarily part of the plot of the book.
I have to admit, I’ve been very surprised to discover how many m/m authors are practising Christians, and it’s made me wonder if their work is a way of showing how homosexual love can be beautiful and life-affirming, despite what their church might tell them (although over here in the UK, our churches are comparatively tolerent of homosexuality). Interesting also, that they rarely make their characters religious – although I can certainly think of some exceptions. Alex Beecroft’s historicals are superb explorations of struggles with faith, and JL Merrow wrote Angel to work through this issue.
Personally, the church’s position on sexuality was one of the main reasons I left as a teenager, and I now consider myself an agnostic. I’m not terrible interested in reading religious m/m stories as a general rule, as I’m currently reading for light escape, but I’m willing for favourite writers to surprise me. I may well pick up that recent Marie Sexton story…
This was my reaction when I first began studying the Early Christian period. I couldn’t understand how someone who knows how it all began could be devout let alone religious. For example, Church fathers in the 2nd century rewrote many sections of biblical text to fit their own agenda (and we have the evidence to prove this). So, how can someone today say these are the literal words of God?
However, I’m not as surprised to find that many m/m authors are religious and practice the beliefs of their faith. As you wrote, m/m fiction is an avenue for them to show that love between two women or two men is a good thing, rather than something wrong or “evil”.
That’s always baffled me, too. I also wonder how anyone who knows the history of the institution of marriage can get uppity about its sanctity and “one man, one woman” status quo.
It’s one man, one woman, 10 acres and 40 head of sheep. Everyone knows that, right?
I have to admit, I’ve been very surprised to discover how many m/m authors are practising Christians, and it’s made me wonder if their work is a way of showing how homosexual love can be beautiful and life-affirming
It’s not the primary aim of my work, but it’s certainly an element in why I write. And while I don’t usually explicitly show my characters as religious, part of the third volume of the Syndicate series was me talking about where I’d like my church to be by the time we’ve spread across half the galaxy — i.e. that the Anglican gets nervous about whether his Methodist in-laws will disapprove of wine at the reception, but that it being two guys getting married isn’t even remembered as ever having been an issue. (Alex and I did wonder if our American readers would a) understand the all the British-culture religious jokes, b) be offended by them…)
I have to admit, I’ve been very surprised to discover how many m/m authors are practising Christians, and it’s made me wonder if their work is a way of showing how homosexual love can be beautiful and life-affirming.
I’m quite sure that factors into it. I confess that everytime I hear someone say something stupid about God “hating” this or that or having a national/political preference, my thoughts are most unchristian.
“You want to convince the reader of your agenda through your storytelling, not by hitting them over the head until they’re too numb to argue.”
Personally, if someone is hitting me over the head, I’ll leave, not stick around until I’m too numb to argue! 😀
In my opinion, organized religions are too often inflexible, dogmatic, and prone to producing fanatics. Not always, of course, but too often for me to be comfortable with them. Which is why, if I have the choice between two equally good books, one with religious themes and one without, I would pick the one without the religion.
On the other hand, I would love to see more books where religion or spirituality form the background of the story, not a source of conflict, not a big plot point, just a part of who the character is.
Aw, Josh, I’m sorry about your friend. It is like mourning a death, because the person you thought you knew and loved is gone. I’m really very sorry that you’re hurt.
There are a few books in the m/m genre that I can think of that deal with spirituality and homosexuality in–I think–responsible, believeable ways. Angels of the Deep by Kirby Crow and As Meat Loves Salt by Maria McCann. (I have a years-long love/hate thing going on with that last one; it handled it responsibly and believably, but not in any way I really want to think about. *shudder*) Ginn Hale did a remarkable job of addressing the subject in Wicked Gentlemen in a way that was effective while not being heavy-handed; she left that up to her characters.
I’m a lapsed Catholic (ten years of parochial school OMG, and then a Catholic college) so I can’t help but address religion in my own work, even when I try not to, but it has yet to have anything to do with the sexual preferences of the characters. I’m not a gay man and have only witnessed that sort of struggle, I have not dealt with the subject directly, so I don’t feel I’m qualified to put a ‘voice’ to that. One of the reasons I love writing fantasy is that I can build any kind of world I want to, and so far, I’ve taken great pleasure in building worlds where that’s a non-subject.
I will say one thing, though, and quote one of my own characters to do it: People are weak, and the weaker they are, the more they rely on what they’ve been told is stronger than themselves, even beyond all sense and reason. Unfortunately, that’s what organized religion has become for me. And I’m sorry your friend isn’t stronger.
Dear Josh,
Goodness–this is quite a discussion. There are so many avenues to go down here I think I will go back toward the original post and the early conversation.
To clarify, I read m/m fiction and I write plays–for all kinds of venues–including churches–catholic, christian (yes, Virginia there is a difference–a big one) methodist, you get the point.
To further clarify, my best friend is gay and came out to me when we were 16–I was the first person he uttered those words to–it was terrifying for both of us I think–and then? Wonderful–the elephant in the room had been acknowledged and it was good–not so for his family and most of our friends–not so at all for the catholic church we attended and where we were youth ministers. The church threw him out–there is no better way to say it–sorry catholics. Did he lose his spirituality? Dear me no–it has simply grown as he himself has over the years.
Josh, I went back to the post and thought about the question–I think “religion” is rarely addressed in any romantic fiction–m/m or hetero. I think “spirituality is often addressed when characters are well developed. I believe that spirituality has to do with the moral compass of a person–no, not whether they are “always kind” or “always good” but rather do they struggle with conflicting desires–can they love, can they sacrifice some part of themselves to care for another human being–that’s really what being spiritual means to me. If God exists (and I must admit I draw comfort from believing he does) can he really be so legalistic as to worry over how we worship or where? Can God really care about what sex our partners are or is his love for us reflected in the very act of loving another? I cling to that idea–the idea of a God who loves us despite ourselves. It seems rather frivolous to imagine a God who worries over who is having sex with whom!
Religion is the package, mores, doctrine, “rules” by which people are kept in line, often kept in a defined place–where gray has ceased to exist for some. Spirituality is a place where gray is welcomed, where the lines blur and where people struggle to hold on to their humanity, sometimes failing, sometimes victorious. Loving another is one of those sweet victories.
So does m/m deal with spirituality? I’ve seen it in your writing Josh–beautifully laid out in your characters. I’ve seen it in many others as well. I have seen very little religion–and for that I am grateful. I love characters, books and yes, most definitely people because of their inner beauty–their spirit. Isn’t it rather nice to turn to novels where spirituality is apparent but religion is kept hidden–perhaps as it should be?
To the authors posting here–please keep writing–the world needs you–trust me, it does!
Respectfully yours.
Sammy
I love this post, Sammy. And in particular this, which is my own feeling on the subject:
If God exists (and I must admit I draw comfort from believing he does) can he really be so legalistic as to worry over how we worship or where? Can God really care about what sex our partners are or is his love for us reflected in the very act of loving another? I cling to that idea–the idea of a God who loves us despite ourselves. It seems rather frivolous to imagine a God who worries over who is having sex with whom!
I’m posting before readiing all the comments, so I hope I’m not repeating someone else’s sentiments.
I grew up in a pretty heavily Catholic family, and homosexuality was never an issue. By that I mean, out of all the things that are possible sins? Someone’s sexual orientation wasn’t on my immediate family’s radar. One of my cousins is a lesbian, and it was met by shrugs by my parents. OTOH, we spent a lot of time discussing spirituality and religion, so it’s something I think about.
I’m a new author, and my first novel is coming out in August. Religion is one of the major themes. I like to think it’s not preachy, and it isn’t anything my MC’s have a lot of internal struggle with, but it’s a major piece of the story. Just yesterday, thanks to a friend pointing it out, I realized my view of the future of religious struggles in the United States could be really controversial to some people.
I’m looking forward to reading that book Anne!
Oh, god, Josh. Don’t read it. I’m in second edits and not only does it seem awful right now (why did they ever give me a contract?) I’m also now terrified that it’s really polarizing.
I’d bet it’s not nearly as polarizing as you fear. If you’ve read through these comments, the vast majority are sensible and balanced. In fact, I don’t think there was a single comment that was objectionable.
I didn’t find a single objectionable comment, you’re right. It’s a fascinating conversation. I’m both jittery about the book and I feel like I didn’t think about some things as much as I should have when writing the book.
I also can’t help wondering about all the perspective we aren’t getting, here. Clearly, the kind of people who invest themselves in fundamental dogma aren’t going to be reading this thread.
Clearly, the kind of people who invest themselves in fundamental dogma aren’t going to be reading this thread.
Very true. But I feel like conversations like this one help to reclaim religion or spirituality from those who want to use it as a means of enforcing their own very human agenda.
Personally, if someone is hitting me over the head, I’ll leave, not stick around until I’m too numb to argue!
That’s why we have to stun you with the first blow. Then we can continue the discussion. ;-D
I will say one thing, though, and quote one of my own characters to do it: People are weak, and the weaker they are, the more they rely on what they’ve been told is stronger than themselves, even beyond all sense and reason. Unfortunately, that’s what organized religion has become for me. And I’m sorry your friend isn’t stronger.
What an excellent quote. Thank you.
I am also posting without reading all the comments, which I will go back and read. First of all being spiritual has nothing to do with religion. Religion is about control and power. It was needed in ancient times to control the peoples. I was raised in a pseudo religious home,which I hated. When I grew older and did a huge amt of reading of all religions I realized they were all judgemental and stifling with too many rules. They make everything sacred clothes,food, sex,etc. I personally don’t need those rules to be a moral person, and I don’t think most people do.
Very true, Arlene.
As a reader, I’m open to all sorts of stories as long as they’re well-written. Of course, that ‘well-written’ part is highly subjective to the individual. This month, I read two books that could not be more different. In one, I’m reading about a person’s guilt over being born abnormal under god’s design, and in another, I’m reading about horrendous hate crimes that end in bloody, devastating violence. Obviously, I have little tolerance for the religious justification – no way will I be more ‘understanding’ to a religion that still condemns when far too many struggle to stay afloat after coming out.
Frankly speaking, there isn’t a single author whom I’ve read that addressed religion without coming off preachy and overbearing. I love Marie Sexton, but unfortunately, her new book fell far off the mark for me.
M/M tends to exist in a vacuum, a highly idealized world as is the norm for all romance novels. Except I have to draw the line somewhere. I cannot find it in myself to be more forgiving of a largely condemning, organized religion, which IMO, is one of the major reasons why rampant bigotry still exists in society today. (I am aware that there are some sects that are supportive, but the number is too small.)
Instead of reading about how misunderstood the religion is, or how one can come to terms with oneself for being who they are with or without god’s approval, I’d rather brave the gritty reality of it, the people who suffer (sometimes physically) for just daring to exist. It’s an issue that pushes all my buttons, so that’s my convoluted way of saying, no, I do not like religion in books, especially not m/m books. On the other hand, one’s own spirituality is an altogether different issue, and I’d welcome reading careful integration into characters and plots.
Thanks for your thoughts, S.
As an ex-Catholic, very spiritual atheist, I have a very strange interest in spirituality, faith, and religion.
That being said, I don’t want religion cluttering a story if it doesn’t really have a role to play. However, I do LOVE a story that deals with religion as a focal point and I don’t need a complete resolution to be happy (although it’s nice). My best example would be Alex Sanchez’ The God Box.
I’ve never read religion in a story as kink (but maybe I avoid those), it usually is portrayed negatively (aka, with the crazies) and sometimes with the concept that one cannot be gay and Christian–which is really a shame, since I know that’s not true.
I wouldn’t mind seeing more religion in M/M fiction, but only if it’s serious or plays an important role. I don’t want the dude going to church just because he needs to go to church because the author wants to show he’s Christian even though it has no affect on his character. I normally assume most characters are Christian/believe in God anyway since that’s what the majority of people are/do.
PS. I didn’t read anyone else’s comment, so sorry if I’m repeating!
Thanks, Alex! I agree that if a character’s religious beliefs are emphasized for some reason, it needs to be germane to the story.
First of all, you’re a good man, Josh.
Secondly, I like John Lennon’s take on it the best – “Imagine there’s no heaven…no hell below us…no religion too.”
If I think about it at all, I would consider myself agnostic (probably actually atheist). So the devout religious beliefs that others have to the extent that it affects their daily lives, friendships, voting, etc etc completely confounds me.
I don’t care to read about it or the angst that can come with it…..I just can’t fathom the inner turmoil that is felt. I’m happy for people if their religion makes them happy and gives them peace…but I don’t get it. And don’t try to convert me either.
Even though my post makes me sound like an intolerant bitch, I’m really not. :ugly:
Good post, Josh.
Even though my post makes me sound like an intolerant bitch, I’m really not.
Nah. I don’t think live and let live is an intolerant stance. 🙂
One last thing–Josh thanks for pushing us to think–so often we lie down and just accept whatever role the world opts to hand us–I enjoyed this post immensely Josh because it reminds us to be less complacent about what role the “church” has decided we shall play and dares us to think for ourselves!
This type of dialogue give me hope!
Gratefully,
Sammy
Thank you, Sammy. I think the discussion that arises through the comments is one of the best parts about these columns.
Sammy, I want to thank you, also, for articulating so well all the ideas that seem to float around inside my head and heart, but don’t come out nearly as well. Josh has the courage to put these topics out here for us to kick around and discuss, but I’m really grateful for individuals who can express their ideas as succinctly as you did.
Did you ask your friend which version of the Bible did she decide was the literal word of God? The King James version? The New International version? Youngs Literal Translation, perhaps?
The Bible (it can be argued any ‘holy’ book) is a book written by humans, interpreted (or misinterpreted) through the years by humans, and translated/retranslated numerous times by humans. The fact that humans are involved at all with the ‘written word of God’ implies that written word is most likely flawed.
We didn’t have that discussion because she’s not at a place where she’s comfortable enough to debate without feeling challenged, I think.
The truth is you sometimes need to believe what you need to believe in order to get through the things you’re facing.
I agree with you, though.
I can’t say religious-themed M/M romance stories would interest me, honestly. And, I hope I don’t piss anyone off, but I personally don’t believe — or trust — in any organized religion at all. That began when I was very young — hailing from Utah originally, my whole dad’s side of the family is Mormon. Hypo-crit-ical. Everything they said we couldn’t do or say around our great grandma when right out the window the second she left the room. There was no such thing as ‘practice what you preach’. Since then, I’ve seen example after example of hypocrisy, closed mindedness, down right cruelty, etc etc etc. While I know it isn’t always that way, those are the only examples I’ve been exposed to over and over, which has only reinforced my aversion to it. Each to their own, I say. But that’s not for me.
Spirituality, on the other hand… I consider myself spiritual. I think someone above already defined spirituality as “grounded and centered”, and I agree with that completely. I have faith in the world around me. I believe the Universe looks out for us. I believe if we step out into the unknown, the safety net is always within reach. I believe in love.
:biglove:
So, for me, religious-themed M/M I’d likely steer clear of. Spiritual M/M though, bring it on.
I think organized religion has a lot to answer for. Of course it also does things like provide sanctuary and feed and cloth the poor.
Religion, like any organization, is built up of individuals, and individuals are the sum of their life experiences and education.
I’m with L.C. Chase on this one, no thanks to the religous themed M/M, but certainly yes to spiritual M/M and characters who believe, pray, and reflect just like in real life.
I don’t want to be preached at, I read to escape, for pleasure.
As a writer, yes, I have believers and non-believers, all trying to find their own way in the world.
I don’t want to be preached at, I read to escape, for pleasure.
Here’s a funny thing. As a writer I will tackle heavy themes. As a reader, I avoid them for all I’m worth. 😀 Not sure what that says!
I normally am not one for religion in books. The only book I ever enjoyed with that theme was “The Thorn Birds.” And maybe because I have a Father Ralph fixation, I recently bought a m/m story that had a priest having an affair with someone in his congregation, leaving the priesthood for him. Not everyone’s thing, I understand.
As for the loss of your friend, I am sorry. A few years ago one of my siblings found Jesus and won’t speak to me because I said supported gay marriage in a FB post. It boggled my mind since my sibling and I were so close for so many years. I feel your pain. :hug:
I normally am not one for religion in books. The only book I ever enjoyed with that theme was “The Thorn Birds.” And maybe because I have a Father Ralph fixation,
😀
I recently bought a m/m story that had a priest having an affair with someone in his congregation, leaving the priesthood for him. Not everyone’s thing, I understand.
I might have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but there’s a wonderful James Colton book called The Outward Side, which tries very hard to strike a balance.
As for the loss of your friend, I am sorry. A few years ago one of my siblings found Jesus and won’t speak to me because I said supported gay marriage in a FB post. It boggled my mind since my sibling and I were so close for so many years. I feel your pain
I suppose what troubles me about the idea of “finding Jesus” is that Jesus talks primarily about taking care of the poor, the responsiblity to others and community, tolerance and peace. And yet the primary message of caring for the poor and less abled is generally overlooked as though Jesus didn’t really mean that stuff or he would have changed his mind about it if he lived today and had a 401K and owned an HD TV of his own.
Thank you — I’m very sorry your sister has shut you out.
As for my sister, I love her, I always will. She was my tormentor, confidant, and best friend and nothing she has said or done will ever take that away. I have hope that one day when the newness of being a Born-Again has worn off, she will turn back into the tolerant, loving person I grew up with. As the girl I knew never was a racist or a homophobe and nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever preach hatred. She knows my door is always welcome to her.
I hope your friend and you can struggle through this. If not, I understand how hard it is when something like this happens and sort of blindsides you. :hug:
Fascinating post, Josh, and some really excellent and thought provoking comments.
Brought up by some pretty hard core Lutherans on my mother’s side (grandfather was a hell-fire-and-brimstone kind of minister, uncle was a slightly less fanatical and less frightening one, more like camp-fire-and-brimstone I guess), with atheist christian hater scientists on my father’s side, then moving to a primarily mormon town for the teen years, and seeing and being limited by their treatment of women, I reached my twenties feeling complete disgust for all of them. I saw nothing but hypocrites and people full of anger and hatred of anyone that wasn’t exactly like them, Lutherans, Mormons, and Atheists, all. I’ve struggled since then to reach a place where I’m live and let live, but still have problems with them not letting others live and let live. There are people who I dearly love, who are good people, who go out of their way to help others, but firmly believe that Gays should be “helped” to be heterosexual because they are sinning against God. It’s all so very complicated and painful, and it hurts my heart, brain, and soul.
As you can probably imagine, religion is a hot button for me. I fall squarely into the camp of not wanting to read anything religious-themed (spiritual totally works though) in the m/m romance genre, or I thought I did. I was shocked to find myself pulled into Between Sinners and Saints and loving it. Marie’s handling of the subject was well done, and even though bits and pieces caused flashbacks to the teen years :eek:, I finished the book in record time and loved it. While I’m not convinced that the ending is likely in the real Mormon community, it felt right for the family in the book, the story worked.
And that’s what it comes down to for me, the story – if it is well written (and as other have said, no preaching is part of that) and at least some of the characters are likable, I’m in.
As you can probably imagine, religion is a hot button for me. I fall squarely into the camp of not wanting to read anything religious-themed (spiritual totally works though) in the m/m romance genre, or I thought I did.
I agree. And it’s been refreshing to see how much diversity there is out there. I had no idea how many authors were dealing with these themes.
I actually don’t mind spirituality and religion within the genre. It’s a part of so many people’s lives. Sometimes it comes off a bit preachy when a character in a book is “Anti-Established” religion. While I’m not involved in an established religious faction, I cannot discount that some people find the structure comforting and still are decent people.
It would be nice to see more of an exploration of a family’s reaction to someone who is gay, the struggle they might have with their church. Not to bash us over the head with dogma or the shunning of gays but perhaps a realistic examination of the conflicts and/or acceptances of a homosexual within the confines of their religion.
Now I’m going to eat dinner. Because I’m shallow that way. 😀
Sometimes it comes off a bit preachy when a character in a book is “Anti-Established” religion. While I’m not involved in an established religious faction, I cannot discount that some people find the structure comforting and still are decent people.
In fairness many theme, political and social, come off preachy in fiction. It’s not easy to handle tough topics in a non-intrusive way.
Oh yes, agreed. There is a fine balance between characterization and preachy of any topic. I DO like how Charlie Cochrane did it in the Cambridge series. Nice balance of faith. 😎
I don’t need spirituality or religion to enjoy an M/M story, but these themes can be interesting provided they aren’t done in a cliched or heavy handed manner. While I get tired of the stereotypical Christian angst, I do like to see spirituality as part of the fullness of character – for example, I love Alan Chin’s deeply spiritual characters, Astrid Amara’s multi-generational Jewish families, Jeff Pearce’s buddhist NYC cop, Brin Harper.
Astrid Amara, yes. She does often deal with themes of faith and family — the two are very often entwined — and she handles it with a good humor that’s especially appealing.
The biggest problem I have with this article is that the author seems to be saying “If you don’t believe as I do, you can’t be my friend”. He wants his friend to accept his views, but can’t embrace hers. There is no equality. She has no “proof” that she is right-he has no “proof” that HE is right and yet he says “I do still love her although I believe she is wrong in just about every way it’s possible to be wrong”. That statement is so condescending. And YOU believe she is wrong so she IS wrong? Where is the logic in that? My beef with this is strictly academic. I don’t care what she believes and I don’t care what he believes. I believe what I believe and I live my life following those beliefs as best I can. That is all anyone can do. She was your friend while she struggled with this. It took courage and strength of character to approach you with this (especially since she probably had a good idea what your reaction would be) and that sounds like someone whose friendship is worth cultivating. She is not suddenly a different person. This was most likely not a declaration of war. The fact that she came to you seems to indicate that she cares about you-she could have just faded you out of her life. A person’s world is pretty small when it is only inhabited by people like them. Diversity is a good thing.
Wow, did we actually read the same article? Did 54 other respondants miss the boat? I appreciate that we all have a difference of opinion, but I don’t believe this is as personal as you seem to be taking this.
Diversity is a good thing. I think every single person who has responded on these threads has reflected that ideal with the exception of you. This isn’t about Josh’s friendship, although it was the backdrop for the question as to how religion is portrayed and addressed in m/m fiction?
Thanks, Janet. Yes, just to reiterate, I was asking the question within the context of something that had happened to me recently — not making assumptions.
I think you’ve misunderstood my point, Merfleur. I do respect her courage and I do respect her right to believe as her heart and conscience tells her.
I personally think that my first response to her — the I-love-you-regardless-of-the- fact-that-we-are-completely-opposed-on-a- matter-this-important-to-both-of-us — was the more condescending. In essence I was acting as though something so important to her (something that affected us both) was of little consequence and could be easily dismissed. That was hardly respectful of her beliefs.
If you came away from this article believing that I’m someone who doesn’t value diversity, let alone someone else’s right to their own beliefs, then I can only say that I am of the opinion you began the essay assuming you already knew my views and that you did not let the facts sway you from that bias.
Nor have I turned from my friend. I will be there for her any time she needs me or wants me. But to act like something this important to her doesn’t matter and doesn’t change anything between us would be, I think, foolish as well as dismissive.
My–for a strictly academic response it seems to be full of a fair share of vitriol and anger. I would beg to differ with you however–his friend as lovely as she may be is now a different person from the one Josh originally enjoyed a friendship with over the years. Let’s do face facts, when a person says they can no longer “agree” with your lifestyle–that which makes you the very person you are–that which defines how and whom you love–I would venture to say that person has changed dramatically. I’m not sure how you could miss that. Truly–I am not judging you–just mystified much like Janet.
Sammy
Josh: If spirituality is about finding inner peace and happiness, then I think all romantic stories deal with the subject. Two people come together in friendship (romantic or platonic) and their spirits are lifted.
As a reader, I prefer the characters live their belief system and not talk about it. Show me, so I can figure you out.
Organized religions being a different subject, I did once address it in fiction. It was set in Rome’s Eastern Empire after Constantine’s reign and one of my mains had knowledge of all the gods — Greek, Persian, Roman, Hebrew, Christian — so I had to learn a bit myself. Research wore me to a frazzle, but I ended up with a love story that pleased me. Better yet, I re-evaluated my own beliefs on the universal power and came up with a better system… for me.
Thank you for presenting the question. And isn’t it grand? Over 100 comments. All civil, none argumentative.
As a reader, I prefer the characters live their belief system and not talk about it. Show me, so I can figure you out.
Yes. Absolutely. Otherwise it’s just stage trappings.
Hi Josh,
Thanks for the article, it forced me to think after a long day at work: something I may forgive you for by the eschaton!
As a married, gay man I certainly understand and have experienced the rhetoric and behaviors that compel wise people to flee from toxic faith communities. At the same time, there are an increasing number of faith communities where GLBT people can find the unfolding, shared and disciplined life with God and neighbor which we generally call “religion”.
When people ask me about my faith, I reply, “I’m not spiritual, but I’m a very religious person.” I go to Church on Sundays (with my husband), seek to know God in community through Word and Sacrament, and shape my faith in dialogue with the Nicene Creed. This Fall, I’ll be making my debut as a Seminary professor. I don’t know if writing a novel is scary, but preparing 12 90-minute lectures for doctoral students is terrifying!!
I confess I’m not entirely pleased by the replacement of religion with “spirituality” that has occurred in the last 25 years in the USA. Experiencing moments that might be described as “transcendent,” “numinous,” “holy,” or as “connecting me to something larger than myself,” are profound and wonderful things but very different than living in the on-going context of the rights (rites!) and responsibilities of a disciplined religious life.
I think the transcendent bliss of spirituality is comparable to falling in love, while being religious is comparable to being married. Religion is the process of being faithful to a vow made to God, often in the absence of any spiritual feelings, the same way that marriage is the process of honoring your commitment to your partner, even on those days you do note feel overwhelming passion/love for your mate. (If anyone lives their marriage in a state of constant, transcendent bliss who has been married more than 5 years please forgive my presumption and immediately tell me your secret!)
To me, a pleasure of MM fiction can be its focus in an exaggerated way on the process of joining: infatuation, conflict, and resolution through a declaration or covenant of some sort. Everything tends to be huge: the passion is huge, the drama is huge, the conflicts are huge, the angst is huge, the muscles are huge, the cocks are huge, even the names are huge. But the exaggeration of MM fiction rightly tends to favor the emotional content of spirituality over the more prosaic content of religion.
A New Age couple levitating on the beach the first time they fuck is probably more fun to read about than me saying Evening Prayer in the living room while my husband makes a salad in the kitchen. A homophobic Evangelical, white with foam, attacking our heroes makes for a better chapter than the amiable conversation that my husband and I have in the car while driving to the Cathedral.
I would say that Romantic fiction primarily uses authenticity to lend versimilitude to the exaggeration that is the core project of the Romance author, but the exaggeration itself probably makes it very difficult to authentically depict the life of a religious person. I think that is why authors tend to focus on the dramatic or exotic in religion, rather than lives of religious people. The dramatic and exotic are better vehicles for exaggeration: Secret Love among the Amish! Golden Vestments and Complex Titles! Snake Handling!
Authentically depicting religion is like authentically depicting marriage. The on-going process of living the life is the opposite of Happily Ever After. That’s why marriages in MM fiction tend to read like permanent infatuations to me, rather than actual marriages, but that’s probably material for another article by Josh.
If anyone actually wades through this long reflection my thanks!
In the Peace of Christ which passes all understanding,
Stu
What terrific insight from a rather different perspective! Thanks so much for sharing that, Stuart. I don’t have a quick or cogent answer because there’s a great deal to reflect on there.
Thanks for the kind words, Josh! After you have time to reflect, I’d be grateful for any thoughts you have.
Unfortunately, I didn’t have my beta reader around for comment editing. Whenever my husband reads a sermon I’m preparing to preach there’s a delicate and tactful pause followed by…”that’s very systematically and carefully written, now go back to your room and shorten it by half.” I scowl and clump back to the Mac to weep as I murder my beautifully composed sentences. Sigh.
-Stu
What a brilliant insight Stuart, I agree with so much of what you have said. If ever you come to take services in the UK i’ll be there with bells on.
I do think however that the spiritual moments you talk of can be flashes within a religious or spiritual life though, I have moments when something touches me, be it an unexpectely kind gesture, or a beautiful play of light on the countryside, they lift my spirits and I thank God for them., but I think you have to believe very firmly in God to be able to see them as gifts from God rather than happy moments and a spiritual gift. I believe that it is more important that we recognise those moments and appreciate them than how we attribute them.
I think that one of the reasons for exageration within any fiction is that for most of us life is so humdrum, it holds very little interest for those not directly affected. My school run is hardly fascinating, but if I expand and tell you about the gorgeous jogger who ran past the car..
Oh and the transcendental joy, if ever I am feeling less than loving towards my husband of 25 years? I just take a fraction of a second to think how much emptier and colder my life would be without him!
Heck, this has become a screed! Thank you for your post,
God bless you both, Jan
Jan,
Thanks for the blessing and the good words!
Unfortunately, I won’t be able to take services in the U.K., as I am a commissioned lay minister, not an ordained clergyperson. After Graduate School then Seminary, I continued my studies and became a pastoral psychotherapist rather than enter the ordination process. The pastor of my parish is a lucky man, he gets a seminary trained colleague for free.
About your husband, I agree that a moment’s reflection can renew the joy.
For example, I believed in the Resurrection of Christ but didn’t really BELIEVE in it until I fell in love with the man I would eventually marry. His love for me brought me back to life in a way that fundamentally transformed me. He Resurrected me from death in a very real way. I experienced it as the intervention of the divine in my life and it suggested that if God could raise me from the dead through Mike (my husband), why couldn’t he have raised Jesus from the dead. So, while I don’t live in a constant state of transcendent bliss, I do live in a consistent state of thanksgiving and an ever returning joy for the man who is the outward and visible sign to me that there really is a God who is making all things new again.
I’m so happy you have been given a similar joy in the man you love.
There if you’ve written a “screed,” which you didn’t, I’ve now matched you screed for screed.
Peace,
Stu
I believe that it is more important that we recognise those moments and appreciate them than how we attribute them.
That’s interesting. And I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that, Jan.
Stu: I would say that Romantic fiction primarily uses authenticity to lend versimilitude to the exaggeration that is the core project of the Romance author, but the exaggeration itself probably makes it very difficult to authentically depict the life of a religious person.
NK: You are really freaking smart, Stu. Please comment on more blogs okay?
Grin. Thanks, Nicole. It’s probably an artifact of pausing in grad school course preparation to write blog comments. Hopefully, my students will find me “freaking smart,” and not regret taking the class. I feel encouraged!
PS: I agree completely with your comment below regarding how dissatisfying it is to read a novel set in the past that dilutes or eliminates the religious aspects of the culture being depicted.
However, the same thing can happen in contemporary books. I LOVED Arvin’s “Simple Men,” except the college chaplain didn’t have a denominational affliliation. Who ordained him and how would the theology of his sponsoring denomination have shaped his character and his choices? That lack bothered me. The author wanted the trappings and conflict of the chaplain’s character without grounding him in the particularity of a faith tradition. There’s no such thing as “Christianity.” There are Christianities, 1000s of different communities with diverse characters and agendas.
What a thought provoking post, Stuart. Your parallel of religion and spirituality with marriage and falling in love is fascinating.
I confess I’m not entirely pleased by the replacement of religion with “spirituality” that has occurred in the last 25 years in the USA. Experiencing moments that might be described as “transcendent,” “numinous,” “holy,” or as “connecting me to something larger than myself,” are profound and wonderful things but very different than living in the on-going context of the rights (rites!) and responsibilities of a disciplined religious life.
I think spirituality opens the possibility for people who do not like organized religions for many reasons to connect with God(dess) or their spiritual sides.
If I ever embrace the notion of having a relationship with a divine being again, I certainly wouldn’t embrace religion, but I can see myself being spiritual.
Being spiritual for many people don’t merely mean the “feeling” of transcendence. Some of them do practice their spirituality, although perhaps not in religious rituals. I find that many spiritual persons are stricter about morality than religious persons. They try to love others, try to be a better person, and try to be as moral as possible. And aren’t those the core of religion or spirituality itself?
Hi Cleon,
Thanks for reading my post so carefully and thoughtfully! I thought its length would be off-putting.
Clearly, one doesn’t need religion to be an ethical and moral human being. The non-religious, whether spiritual or atheist, often (usually?) do a better job of loving their neighbor as themselves and seeking to create a society where the marginal are valued and the dignity of every human being is respected. This truth is the reasonable foundation for so many people finding religion to be useless and religion’s practitioners to be judgmental hypocrites. Especially and appropriately GLBT persons.
I think the core of the Christian religion (and perhaps others but I am not a scholar of Religious studies) is the desire to seek and love God through Christ in community held accountable to a particular historical tradition of understanding God’s self-revelation in the world. The tradition to which you choose to be held accountable dictates the community in which you will seek to practice your faith.
Spirituality, however, tends to seek the divine by working through and beyond institutional traditions to find a unique and personal way of understanding the sacred. The upside of that project is the freedom to take what is useful from different traditions or from no tradition and find delight in the holy. The downside is missing the other delights that one might find through sacrificial faithfulness to the particular.
For example, my husband and I are monogamous for a variety of reasons, but a central reason for the practice is our belief that Christ calls us to monogamy. In most MM novels, for example, couples embrace monogamy because their overwhelming inter-personal passion makes it not a choice but an inevitability. How many scenes are there where the couple says “Mine, mine,” and gives each other hickeys (what’s the fascination, by the way, with hickeys in MM literature?). MM literature tends to portray monogamy not as choice but as almost a biological imperative. Why is that preferable to monogamy that is embraced by MM characters as a discipline and a choice? On the one hand, MM readers seem to like the idea of freedom, on the other hand they seem to like couple-formation which seems compelled by the penis. Would it be propaganda if a protagonist struggled with monogamy and chose faithfulness out of a spiritual or religious imperative?
Cleon, writing really long posts is an amazing way not to write school lectures! I recommend it to all.
-Stuart
I get what you mean and thanks for writing this really long post and replies. Hopefully we don’t distract you too long. 😉
Why is that preferable to monogamy that is embraced by MM characters as a discipline and a choice? On the one hand, MM readers seem to like the idea of freedom, on the other hand they seem to like couple-formation which seems compelled by the penis. Would it be propaganda if a protagonist struggled with monogamy and chose faithfulness out of a spiritual or religious imperative?
Fascinating and true too. Many people are abstaining from sex before marriage for religious reasons.
But it’s hard to see this issue portrayed in M/M romance since romance basically sells emotional gratification and idealized versions of love. So I think it’ll be hard for readers to find monogamy because of religious faithfulness to be as hot as monogamy because of their overwhelming love & passion for one another. 😀
But it’s hard to see this issue portrayed in M/M romance since romance basically sells emotional gratification and idealized versions of love. So I think it’ll be hard for readers to find monogamy because of religious faithfulness to be as hot as monogamy because of their overwhelming love & passion for one another.
Well, yes. There’s always this. Sex sells. It sells very well indeed. A story about two hot, sexy policemen is probably going to sell better than one hot, sexy policeman and one tortured-by-Catholic-guilt policeman.
Josh, you did write a tortured-by-Catholic-guilt policeman & a recluse writer with heart condition, and the story is very hot indeed.
So what’s hot & not is in the hands of the writer, I guess. 😀
So what’s hot & not is in the hands of the writer, I guess.
Maybe that’s the final story. Jake and Adrien go to church. ;-D
Stu: Why is that preferable to monogamy that is embraced by MM characters as a discipline and a choice? On the one hand, MM readers seem to like the idea of freedom, on the other hand they seem to like couple-formation which seems compelled by the penis. Would it be propaganda if a protagonist struggled with monogamy and chose faithfulness out of a spiritual or religious imperative?
NK: Or out of any sort of ethics or moral standards, really. Not everybody is monogamous because they don’t have other choices or other desire due to being part of a closed circuit of overwhelming animal magnetism. Some of us just don’t want to be that asshole who hurts their partner real bad for 20 minutes of otherwise pointless conquest. But I think there you’re running into the necessary exagerration of attraction that makes romance novels bigger than life. There is probably a way to make both work out while maintaining the great sweeping motions of a romance novel. It would require some mastery of narrative summary, I think.
About Simple Men–haven’t read it but am now interested. And I agree about cross-wearing and presumably church-going characters requiring denomination, it always bugs me when I don’t know if a character is Catholic or Protestant or Charismatic or whatever cause it makes a big difference in where the character is coming from.
In most MM novels, for example, couples embrace monogamy because their overwhelming inter-personal passion makes it not a choice but an inevitability. How many scenes are there where the couple says “Mine, mine,” and gives each other hickeys (what’s the fascination, by the way, with hickeys in MM literature?). MM literature tends to portray monogamy not as choice but as almost a biological imperative. Why is that preferable to monogamy that is embraced by MM characters as a discipline and a choice?
Such an excellent point.
I think the concept, the expectation, of lifelong monogamy is a perfect example of an ideal, whether religious or romantic, which requires committment, sacrifice, discipline to carry out.
(Or certainly a little discussion ahead of time.)
It’s not a conflict, even when the choice for monogamy is not based on religion, that appears much in m/m fiction.
But then the ideal of romantic love is that our passion will never cool, we will never stray, we will never want anything but this perfect other — who feels exactly the same.
Josh: “But then the ideal of romantic love is that our passion will never cool, we will never stray, we will never want anything but this perfect other — who feels exactly the same.”
Yet these same perfect couples, these paragons of soul-fused symbiotic Romantic love, often have conflicts based in mistaken assumptions or unasked questions that would take 10 minutes to solve if they actually talked with one another.
Also, the ferocious jealousy displayed by one or both of the protagonists after they have “claimed” each other are often used by authors to suggest the depth of the pair bond in a way I find distasteful.
I’ve never found an inability to communicate or insane jealousy, 2 common themes in MM, to meet the criteria for idealized, Romantic love. I’d prefer an exaggerated ability to have a good discussion and profound trust. Perhaps the jealousy and inability to communicate are supposed to suggest exaggerated forms of masculinity. Guys don’t talk and they need to own their partners. I’d like to see some evolution in these areas.
I’ve never found an inability to communicate or insane jealousy, 2 common themes in MM, to meet the criteria for idealized, Romantic love. I’d prefer an exaggerated ability to have a good discussion and profound trust. Perhaps the jealousy and inability to communicate are supposed to suggest exaggerated forms of masculinity. Guys don’t talk and they need to own their partners. I’d like to see some evolution in these areas.
I’m with you all the way on that one. There’s a definite lack of emotional maturity (sophistication?) in many of these stories; I hadn’t considered it from a spiritual or ethical standpoint.
Stuart: Clearly, one doesn’t need religion to be an ethical and moral human being. The non-religious, whether spiritual or atheist, often (usually?) do a better job of loving their neighbor as themselves and seeking to create a society where the marginal are valued and the dignity of every human being is respected. This truth is the reasonable foundation for so many people finding religion to be useless and religion’s practitioners to be judgmental hypocrites. Especially and appropriately GLBT persons.
Patty: Stuart, thank you for valuing the ideas and opinions of everyone here on the site. I know the intention of Josh’s article is for all of us to consider the role of spirituality in m/m fiction, but that could have become a polarizing discussion of beliefs. The language and spirit of your posts has been wonderful.
I personally fall into the camp of a believer who embraces the idea of a loving God. With that in mind, I strive not to be judgmental (some days are better than others) and a tolerant listener. If you don’t mind, can you tell me what faith group you are a part of?
And believe me, just reading long and thoughtful posts has kept me from many nights of not grading papers.
Hi Patty,
You get the unusual short reply because the husband and I are going to do HOT errands: the bank, the grocery store, and target. Hot, hot errands!
To answer your question: I am an Episcopalian.
-Stuart
Truly an excellent post.
I confess I’m not entirely pleased by the replacement of religion with “spirituality” that has occurred in the last 25 years in the USA. Experiencing moments that might be described as “transcendent,” “numinous,” “holy,” or as “connecting me to something larger than myself,” are profound and wonderful things but very different than living in the on-going context of the rights (rites!) and responsibilities of a disciplined religious life.
Things go in cycles and I think perhaps this favoring the notion of spirituality over a particular creed might be part of a necessary cycle wherein a large, culturally diverse and greatly conflicted country struggles to define spiritual community while letting go of some of the worst and most divisive aspects of organized religion.
I think most of us want to believe that there is something more beyond this life, this world, that there is some point to it all — beyond humanism — but, for the reasons you’ve given, feel alienated by the idea of an official church and all the negatives that seem to come with that.
Or maybe we’re all too lazy to get up and go to church on Sunday morning.
But I do seem to see more of my friends speaking more openly about God and matters of faith, which makes me think we’re cycling around again after a period when religion seemed to be something only white, rich, conservatives could afford.
No kidding! Could the four of you have a scheduled live, round table discussion some day so we could get all of it in one dose?
It is so cool to get discussion, thoughts, and answers from different points of view. And the questions you are asking each other are perfect for moving the ideas forward. The best college class I’ve ever attended. 😉
I have been following this conversation with such interest. Stuart, I don’t think you need to worry about your students. If you are as eloquent there as you are here, you’re gold! 😀 I grew up in a very devout christian family. It’s been my experience that most religions teach fear. You better be good or else! I once told my mother (much to her dismay) that I wasn’t intolerant enough to be a christian. And by and large, I believe that to be true. I find it heartening to find people like you, who can find the room for love and tolerance and religion. This has been one of the best conversations ever. Thank you all for your insights and views. It has been edifying.
Hi Marilyn,
Thanks for the good word about my upcoming teaching gig! I hope it works out. It’ll be an uphill battle after I force them to purchase a $72 textbook. I tried to find something cheaper and equivalent, but no luck. If only I could find someone to write the content of the class in MM novel form. Then they could purchase it for $6.99 from an e-book store!! Ready to get started Marilyn??? 😀
Stuart – that was a really helpful comment. Thank you. I hope you join in future discussions.
Thanks, Rachel. I’ve been easing back in to the Wave-life. Everyone is very welcoming here.
Dear Josh,
So just for perspective, I’ll state that I am a lesbian and that I’m now an atheist, though I was raised Presbyterian.
I think its perfectly possible to for M/M to have religious characters and even religious themes and be successful. G. Hale’s Lord of the White Hell is pretty much exclusively about religion. All the characters are religious to varying degrees. It just doesn’t seem like a religiously themed book because the religion is integrated into the characters and the world, rather than simply discussed a couple of times in dialogue and then ignored for the rest of the piece.
I enjoy verisimilitude of all sorts so conceptually, religious characters and spiritual themes don’t bother me at all.
But as a reader (and by extension an editor) I have serious problems with most representations of religious gay characters in m/m. Having had the experience, more than once, of someone laying their hand gently on mind and informing me, for my own good, that I am destined for hell, I find myself highly critical about the reactions characters have to the natural conflict that arises between the religious and the nonreligious. Or between the religious non-homosexual and the equally religious homosexual.
This is, of course, presuming a conflict arises at all, which hardly ever happens. It’s an incredible dealbreaker for me when I perceive missing religious conflict in, for example, a piece of historical fiction. I feel like the author isn’t even trying to respect the real experience that a real person might have had way back when. It’s cashing in on the trappings of history while simultaneously being dismissive of it. And so there’s this weird thing where I have an equally dismissive reaction toward the book I’m reading and put it down.
However, my main criticism is that the characters reactions to even well-intentioned or banal acts of oppression are way too one-dimensional. Either they are hurt and melodramatically angry or they are bummed and mopey, but they almost always get over it really fast–like in one scene. Every now and then a character is self-destructive, which is at least more accurate and appropriate to the level of rejection they are experiencing, but that’s usually it.
So far I’ve never read a character who had my own reaction to being told I’m going to hell, which is to be initially confused and then homicidally enraged once I figured out what was happening but I think that particular reaction might be quite specific to aggressive types like me. 😀
So I guess my verdict here is that although I have absolutely no problem with spiritual themes in m/m fiction, there are so many ways to handle it really badly that I don’t know if I would advise anyone who hasn’t already written 10 books to try it.
love,
NK
PS–I thought you handled the character of Nathan Doyle really well in this respect–both in his emotional reaction and his historical period. I didn’t miss the lack of prayer on his part because the circumstances of the story didn’t really allow for much church-going. I just assumed that if he hadn’t been cold-cocked in the middle of nowhere he’d have been at midnight mass on X-mas eve just like every other Catholic I know–even the lapsed ones. I guess midnight mass is just special that way. 🙂
However, my main criticism is that the characters reactions to even well-intentioned or banal acts of oppression are way too one-dimensional. Either they are hurt and melodramatically angry or they are bummed and mopey, but they almost always get over it really fast–like in one scene. Every now and then a character is self-destructive, which is at least more accurate and appropriate to the level of rejection they are experiencing, but that’s usually it.
Yes. I think that’s a lot of it. These are not questions easily or painlessly resolved. Granted, I understand that a story is in some ways a microcosm and so much of the struggle is condensed and simplified for dramatic purposes.
I agree also with the need for historical fiction to reflect the influence of religion. I think it somehow has to be addressed even if it’s by its absence.
Nicole,
I forgot to commend to you Felicia Watson’s Where the Allegheny Meets the Monongahela.
The nun in the novel is identifiably Roman Catholic, fully embodied and plays a pivotal role in the development of the main character.
I think Felicia Watson’s novel also models how the exaggeration inherent in Romance novels can be used to tell a story where the character’s hyper-real love leads each to a personal transformation that I found both deeply moving and inspiring. “Conversion of life,” is a traditional religious idea well-suited to Romance novels. The couple emerges from their trials changed and renewed, knowing who they are and who they want to be. That’s the kind of MM novel I enjoy. A novel where the protagonists are basically the same people before and after falling in love leaves me cold. What’s the point of love if it doesn’t profoundly alter you in some way.
Stuart, I just want to add my thank you for your insights, which if nothing else had been truly a pleasure to read (as this whole discussion) and add my vote of love for Felicia Watson’s novel.
Stu: I forgot to recommend to you Felicia Watson’s Where the Allegheny Meets the Monongahela.
NK: You really are a Dreamspinner Press fan aren’t you? I’d be interested to hear the acquiring editor from Dreamspinner weigh in on this since she seems to be consistently hitting the mark for you.
Stu: I think Felicia Watson’s novel also models how the exaggeration inherent in Romance novels can be used to tell a story where the character’s hyper-real love leads each to a personal transformation that I found both deeply moving and inspiring…What’s the point of love if it doesn’t profoundly alter you in some way.
NK: I have to admit that because I’m personally sort of focused on plot-oriented genre fiction–SF/F and recently, mystery–I’ve not read much straight up contemporary romance, which is to say romance where the romance comprises the theme, conflict and basic plot of a story. But yeah, I get what you’re saying. Love should change a character. The process of love should, in a story that is ostensibly about love, be the impetus for change in both characters moving toward reaching a singular purpose–to be in love, cultivate their love and to be happy and noble in their pursuit of harmony.
But Stuart, I have to tell you: there is another side of practical storytelling. A dark side. Antagonism. Villains. Conflict. Basically, drama-inducing elements that keep readers turning pages. That, in my opinion is the really tough part of creating verisimilitude in romance–realistic baddies. I know it’s probably not your forte, because as far as I know, you’re not a fabricator of fiction so much as a philosophical thinker, but I am deeply curious to discover what your idea of a realistic antagonist might be in the context of this conversation about introducing a more profound sort of spirituality to m/m romance? Because villains in fiction are necessary. They serve the function of embodying opposition to the couple’s happiness in a real and physical way. Can you tell me who you think a plausible villain for this sort of romance might be?
NK
And, as a side note:
ATTENTION DREAMSPINNER PRESS: WE SHOULD GET TOGETHER AT YAOICON THIS YEAR AND TALK SHOP. I WILL BUY ONE ROUND OF DRINKS. LOVE NIKKI
Hi Nicole,
It’s a dark and stormy morning here in upstate New York. (It was a dark and stormy night, but that’s another story.) Mike and the dog are sleeping. I’m drinking tea. So I will permit myself an even longer answer than usual. 🙂
You’re right, I have been reading more Dreamspinner Press novels of late. I’m presently concentrating on contemporary romances because, as a reader, I think paranormal romance is starting to spin out of control. It’s not unusual now to find a protagonist who is a fae-shapshifting-druid-vampire-sorcerer and the son of the Archangel Michael and the Ghost of Queen Victoria. When his love interest is a Shifter-Cop-Hamadryad and they are fighting a Native American-Jewish Dybukk Coyote, I am forced to hurl the novel against the wall. Since I read e-books, this can be quite an expensive prospect. Unless the books are carefully plotted and exceptionally well-written, these hyphenate paranormals just read as ridiculous to me. The focus seems more on the shallow wonder created by mere hybridization as opposed to the deeper wonders of constructing a world that is authentically full of the unexpected and disturbing.
Paranormal urban fiction, as I understood it, was supposed to be a mythic exploration of the terrors and wonders and comedy that dwell just beneath the surface of the conventions to which we, as a society, stubbornly cling. Piling on mythic references doesn’t necessarily make a story more mythic. Jordan Castillo Price’s “Sympathy” was a terrific and oddly creepy story that created mythic resonances using only plant references and the activities involved in making pottery. Z.A. Maxfield’s “Jacob’s Ladder” had a dreamy, magical realist tone that made it far more “other” in sensibility than a story about a Sidhe Gourmet Chef who keeps an Oracular Phoenix in his pantry.
Also, as this thread is about spirituality. I find it troubling that the Gods, Goddesses, Angels, and Spirits often get stripped of their spiritual dimensions and basically function in the stories like comic-book superheroes/supervillians. The Devil is not like Lex Luthor. The Dracula of Bram Stoker was more than a metaphor for Victorian sexual repression: he was EVIL, an undead, demonic spirit whose purpose was to corrupt and damn others to eternal suffering. This present crop of S & M vampires who manage to be simultaneously hyper-violent and banal just confuse me. Paranormal fiction wants the trappings of the sacred without the essence of the sacred.
Stu asks the writers, just for himself, for more mythic focus and fewer empty hybrids in paranormal fiction. Free yourself from the Charlaine Harris kitchen sink, you have nothing to lose but your chains!
Now, having commented on something you didn’t directly ask about, I will answer your question!!! If you ever read P.D. James “An Unsuitable Job for a Woman,” or watched Diana Rigg in “Mother Love,” on PBS’ Mystery, those are the types of characters I find overwhelmingly terrifying. After all these years, I still remember the shock and horror I felt when reading/viewing these characters. The antagonists in both these stories are malignant narcissists as opposed to pure sociopaths. A sociopath is horrifying because he/she is unable to see you as more than an object but a malignant narcissist knows you’re human but simply doesn’t care enough not to destroy you in order not to inconvenience himself/herself. The non-histrionic betrayal of trust by someone you thought loved and regarded you is the most horrifying form of antagonist to me. The non-histrionic aspect is core.
In MM novels, for example, the obsessed lover who stalks, attacks, vandalizes, and kidnaps is a common character. When that character is written as an over-the-top drama queen whose acts of violence have the character of an extended temper tantrum, that doesn’t work for me. When the character is calm, certain of the love the protagonist has for him, and confident that re-making his life by killing his pets, lovers, and friends will be the best for him, that’s chilling to me. Other examples of malignantly narcissistic acts would be Arnold Schwarzenegger’s and Jonathan Edward’s sexual conduct. To protect the shape of your own life for years, at the price of the fundamental humiliation and deception of someone you ostensibly love, that’s truly evil to me. A person like that always makes a great antagonist.
I also like sympathetic antagonists. The wife the protagonist is leaving for the new neighbor in an MM novel is not the enemy, she’s the victim. When she’s treated merely as an hysterical, vengeful obstacle or has a sudden, psychologically inconsistent change of heart, I’m disappointed in the story. I’d like to see the rejected wife in a story try to keep custody of her children, not because she’s homophobic but because her husband’s decision-making process and sudden change of life make him seem too immature and erratic to be trusted with the kids. Having her written as sympathetic, maybe even right, makes her an interesting antagonist. If the resolution was counseling for the protagonist and his new love and convincing her that he wasn’t nuts, that would be interesting to me. Then the transformation of the protagonist comes from acceding to the antagonist, not defeating her. I’d love that story.
So, there you go NK: non-histrionic malignant narcissicists and sympathetic antagonists are my favorite kind of “villians”.
Peace,
Stu
Stu: So, there you go NK: non-histrionic malignant narcissicists and sympathetic antagonists are my favorite kind of “villians”.
NK: Nice. I kinda see where you’re going with that. Psychologically well developed characters who make sense in context, essentially. But mostly people who could win the “worst Christian ever” award for failing utterly to deliver on that “Do unto others” directive.
NK: But mostly people who could win the “worst Christian ever” award for failing utterly to deliver on that “Do unto others” directive.
The SHOCK & HORROR! I didn’t see it and it’s true. It’s true! In the end, it turns out my literary tastes are fundamentally shaped by…The Golden Rule. The freakin’ Golden Rule. :blush: I have to go cry now.
That’s the kind of MM novel I enjoy. A novel where the protagonists are basically the same people before and after falling in love leaves me cold. What’s the point of love if it doesn’t profoundly alter you in some way.
True. But in a sense this is the point of *all* fiction and storytelling. The novel/novella/short story should not end with the progtagonist unchanged.
Unless that is the point of the story. In which case it sounds like a depressing book.
Josh: “True. But in a sense this is the point of *all* fiction and storytelling. The novel/novella/short story should not end with the progtagonist unchanged.
Unless that is the point of the story. In which case it sounds like a depressing book.”
I absolutely agree that a changed protagonist is a fundamental purpose of fiction. But within the MM genre, would you agree there are an unusually high percentage of “depressing” books? Books where the billionaire/movie star/attorney simply completes his perfect life by merely adding the perfect twink/musclegod and continues to live in bliss. Perhaps those books aren’t fiction, however, but erotica? Josh, would that be a difference between erotica and fiction, the indifference to change in the protagonists?
Perhaps those books aren’t fiction, however, but erotica? Josh, would that be a difference between erotica and fiction, the indifference to change in the protagonists?
I have to hand it to you, you do ask stimulating questions, Stuart. For that alone, I think you’re going to be a smashing success as an instructor.
I think it’s basically the difference between good fiction and lousy fiction. I think in good erotica there *is* growth or positive change in the protagonist.
The fact that so many books in this genre fail to demonstrate that growth or even offer genuine conflict within the plot is a subject for another day. ;-D In other words, don’t get me started.
i <3 stu! and this conversation. and must say that i have been privileged enough to be a member of an incredible congregation (methodist) that welcomed, (not tolerated like human broccoli), all kinds of seekers and believers: the homeless, the traveler, lgbtqia people, people of color. for the first time in my religious LIFE i understood how expansive a christ-centered life could be. and at the time i was living with my cross dressing bi subby partner! if we believe in the lovely complicatedness (m/m erotic historical romances written by postmodern lesbians anyone?) of human experience i think m/m books should have characters that reflect that beautiful variation of human experience. and not just as a trope to advance story conflict.
:0) thank you, josh, for going there!!! :0)
-kkm
I really find stories like this encouraging, KKM. Thank you.
Thanks for the kind words!! You’re right, there’s nothing like an inclusive community to manifest the love of God. One of the most beautiful and memorable sermons I ever heard was preached at the Metropolitan Community Church in New York City. I remember the minister saying: “What are we doing wrong that the transgendered sex workers around the corner from this building aren’t filling the pews and finding a safe place and welcome. Why are they in the cold when they could be warm in here with us? I challenge you in the name of Christ to make this community more inclusive.” Inspiring, the minister was always about radical hospitality.
Josh I’m posting this comment on behalf of Toby Johnson because the spam filter refused to let it go through. 🙂
************
Josh, thanks for raising this issue. Interesting responses you’ve received. You invited other authors to reply who have dealt with religious/spiritual questions in their books. As such a writer, I want to chime in. My books–five non-fiction and five fiction-have all dealt in one way or another with what religion and myth can mean to modern day people and to gay people in particular.
I was a student and friend of the renowned comparative religions scholar and mythologist Joseph Campbell; from him I learned how to understand the “meaning” of religion over and above the details of doctrine. It’s such a simple step, but so important, to see that what the stories that have come down to us from the past are really about is how to live well and find meaning and significance in human life and, then, to be a loving and productive person.
It seems to me that’s what Jesus–and all the other religious teachers-were talking about. The symbols and stories of religion were originally designed to communicate and bring about an experience of loving life. Unfortunately, for much of history religion has meant fighting over who was right and who was wrong and who ought to be burned alive. (Burning people alive is a pretty strong disqualifier for claiming to speak for God!)
For gay people, in particular, religion has been a cudgel. It has ruined so many, many lives. Gay people should want to find new ways to think about the stories and new ways to generate religious/mystical experience for themselves that show how our lives fit into the great scheme of things.
There’s a transformation happening in how we understand religion and myth; exposure to other religions and other cultures besides our own forces us to be more open minded and inclusive. It potentially forces us to rise to a higher perspective from which we can see how all the religions and all the doctrines can ALL be true, no matter how contradictory.
I think the psychological awareness that gave rise to the current understanding of homosexuality as a dynamic of personality and brain function is part of this overall transformation. Gayness itself is an example of maturation of human thought.
My novels–Secret Matter, Getting Life in Perspective, Plague, Two Spirits: A Story of Life with the Navajo (a collaboration with Walter L Williams)–all portray gay people discovering how to see beyond the naive religion of childhood and discover a richer significance for their lives (and, in at least two of them, to “save the world”). And, because they’re novels, they get to do that in the process of telling a romantic, occasionally erotic story about what it means to be gay/queer/LGBTQ.
The whole world needs to wake up from the naive religion of childhood. In a very real and positive way, it’s like the discovery that “yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus; he lives in the hearts of men as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist.”
Josh, I honor you for wanting to think and understand about what happened between you and your friend who decided the Bible was literally true and so she had to reject your “lifestyle.” It seems like the difference is that you can allow her her beliefs–her love of Jesus and devotion to the words of the Bible–but she has to condemn you for your beliefs.
Even a modicum of study reveals that, while the Bible certainly isn’t pro-gay (it was written thousands of years ago by tribal people who were struggling to keep their populations alive and who knew virtually nothing about what we’d now call psychology and sociology), the few verses that are used to condemn homosexuals probably don’t mean what they are reputed to say anyway AND they are insignificant in the message of true religion.
I like the Dalai Lama’s comment that “my religion is kindness.” I think that is what Jesus would say. (The Dalai Lama’s not so enlightened himself on the topic of homosexuality, but at least he isn’t condemning.)
Toby Johnson
author, Gay Perspective, Two Spirits, Secret Matter, and more…
tobyjohnson.com
Toby, thank you for adding your experience and wisdom to the discussion. Between you and Stuart we’re really getting some excellent insights. And here I thought the discussion had wound down. 😉
There’s a transformation happening in how we understand religion and myth; exposure to other religions and other cultures besides our own forces us to be more open minded and inclusive. It potentially forces us to rise to a higher perspective from which we can see how all the religions and all the doctrines can ALL be true, no matter how contradictory.
This was a what I was trying to get at in my comment to Stuart — although you’ve said it better than I could.
It’s that common thread, that similar message in all major religions that first convinced me that there had to be some basic, universal truth in the notion of God and that the rules and rituals were so much…DRM. Only in this case the “D” stands for Divine Rights Management rather than Digital. 😉
This discussion has been crazy fascinating, but my brain has hardly been keeping up with it. Thanks, Josh, for bringing it up in the first place. 🙂
I’ve really enjoyed reading everyone’s views. I wanted to give you guys a link to one of my favorite This American LIfe shows, ever. It’s about a Reverend in Oklahoma who came to believe there’s no hell, and how that affected him and his church. There’s a small part where he discusses GLBTQ Christians near the end. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/304/heretics
Anne,
Carlton Pearson is fascinating, isn’t he? I live in Oklahoma, near Tulsa, and have considered going to his New Perspectives church, to see his new sermons and how I feel about them. I think this is one of the most fascinating shows that TAL has ever done, I’ve listened to it several times. Thanks for posting it!
Hi Josh and Toby,
Toby Johnson offers a provocative set of religious doctrinal statements describing the faith he would like to see emerge after a “transformation happening in how we understand religion and myth [that] potentially forces us to rise to a higher perspective from which we can see how all the religions and all the doctrines can ALL be true, no matter how contradictory.”
I find I must object to the mystical delegitimization of other religions inherent in his faith claims. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, LDS, Hindus: all of us living without the revelation of the real truth behind the dissmissable “details of our doctrine”. Truths that would set us free and help us to see the real meaning of our religious endeavors and free us from the bondage of our naive, childish faiths. Toby Johnson’s religion even has a Prophet and and origin story: “from [Joseph Campbell] I learned how to understand the “meaning” of religion over and above the details of doctrine. It’s such a simple step, but so important, to see that what the stories that have come down to us from the past are really about…” Like all orthodoxies, a certain set of people know what sacred stories are REALLY about. If I don’t believe that Jesus was a manifestation of the hero with a thousand faces, I guess I’m not enlightened. It’s the same type of thing the Jehovah’s Witnesses tell me when they come to my door.
Josh, this is why I can find it ironic when Toby Johnson’s position is self-presented as “inclusive” and “open-minded”. I respect other religions. I respect their particularity, their purpose, their history, their claims, their cosmic dimensions. I respect when people believe differently than I do; I respect the reality of the contradiction and believe that in respecting it I am respecting them.
I object to being told what to think or want in the name of religion. Toby Johnson says: “Gay people should want to find new ways to think about the stories and new ways to generate religious/mystical experience for themselves that show how our lives fit into the great scheme of things.” Why SHOULD I want that? What if I find how my life fits in the great scheme of things within a historical Christian tradition? Am I failing to want what I should want as a gay man? How is Toby Johnson telling me what I should want any different that a member of the Southern Baptist Church telling me what I should want?
Often, it’s people who believe that they are being inclusive and open-minded who are practicing Divine Rights Management. To respect another’s dignity is, I claim, to allow their beliefs to exist as they understand them. In my opinion, that’s accomodation.
Respectfully,
Stuart
Often, it’s people who believe that they are being inclusive and open-minded who are practicing Divine Rights Management. To respect another’s dignity is, I claim, to allow their beliefs to exist as they understand them. In my opinion, that’s accomodation.
I agree with that. I think the difference here is…well, I’ve long thought that there are two basic approaches (not mutually exclusive, by the way) to recognizing God in one’s own life: one is a philosophical (perhaps spiritual — depending on how we’re defining spiritual?) approach. And one is traditional religion.
I do find a (for me reassuring) common thread in the world’s great religions, but I think the danger with treating all religion as so much mythology is that we ultimately rationalize away what separates religion from philosophy — which for me eventually boils down to a leap of faith. Not a leap into the dark, but a leap into the light — because reason, and not supersition or fear, has shown the way.
Despite the fact that there are many areas of commonality within the world’s great religions, there are also great areas of conflict and disagreement, so it’s not one size fits all by any means.
Unfortunately, for so many the emphasis is always on where other religions differ from ours and why those differences make them “wrong.” I think perhaps that’s part of what Toby is saying, although I’m not presuming to speak for him.
LOL Just back from a rehearsal and saw a bumper sticker that speaks directly to the conversation and I quote:
“Please don’t blame your narrow-minded bigotry on me–thank you…God
Ah–what we do in the name of one who gave us things like those fabulous sunsets and the touch of a lover’s hand–rather criminal, really!
Sammy
This is a great bumper sticker.
Is there a like button somewhere around here? 😀
Ah–what we do in the name of one who gave us things like those fabulous sunsets and the touch of a lover’s hand–rather criminal, really!
I think the challenge for many Christians is to avoid creating God in man’s image.
Josh: I think the challenge for many Christians is to avoid creating God in man’s image.
Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the challenge for Christians is living into the implications of how God created man in God’s image in Jesus of Nazareth.
Yes! Which brings us full circle back to What Would Jesus Do?
Josh: Yes! Which brings us full circle back to What Would Jesus Do?
I know, via my personal relationship with Him, that Jesus wants a series of novels by Josh Lanyon where the cop is comfortable with his sexuality and his bookish/professorial love interest is terrified that his writer colleagues will find out he creates MM Christian Fiction! They work out their relationship while solving theologically-motivated homicides.
Suggested titles: “Come Unto These Gospel Sands,” “This Rough Religion,” and “The Christians Have a Word For It”.
Suggested titles: “Come Unto These Gospel Sands,” “This Rough Religion,” and “The Christians Have a Word For It”.
Now if only Jesus would agree to cowrite with me. Although I hear I’m pretty hard to work with.
Josh: Now if only Jesus would agree to cowrite with me. Although I hear I’m pretty hard to work with.
You don’t want to co-write with Jesus. If it’s a good book, He’ll get all the credit; if it’s a bad book, it’ll be all your fault!
See, Christian with a sense of humor?!!? 😯
And I was going to suggest He’s sitting by your side. 😎
For some reason I’m not getting notices of comments posted now, so I’m not intending to ignore anyone’s posts.
Hopefully there are no further remarks on the earliest discussion thread because…I don’t think I can weed them out at this point.
But Stuart, I have to tell you: there is another side of practical storytelling. A dark side. Antagonism. Villains. Conflict. Basically, drama-inducing elements that keep readers turning pages. That, in my opinion is the really tough part of creating verisimilitude in romance–realistic baddies. I know it’s probably not your forte, because as far as I know, you’re not a fabricator of fiction so much as a philosophical thinker, but I am deeply curious to discover what your idea of a realistic antagonist might be in the context of this conversation about introducing a more profound sort of spirituality to m/m romance? Because villains in fiction are necessary. They serve the function of embodying opposition to the couple’s happiness in a real and physical way. Can you tell me who you think a plausible villain for this sort of romance might be?
And please tell me that it’s not a closeted politician, a homophobic minister, or a power-mad general.
The question is not for me, but I think the real threat in such a book is simply…base human nature. The desire to have what we want when we want it regardless of the cost.
Stuart says:
I object to being told what to think or want in the name of religion. Toby Johnson says: “Gay people should want to find new ways to think about the stories and new ways to generate religious/mystical experience for themselves that show how our lives fit into the great scheme of things.” Why SHOULD I want that? What if I find how my life fits in the great scheme of things within a historical Christian tradition? Am I failing to want what I should want as a gay man? How is Toby Johnson telling me what I should want any different that a member of the Southern Baptist Church telling me what I should want?
Stuart, let me begin by saying that your posts have been both insightful and thought provoking. I pulled this passage to comment because I feel it’s important to the discussion to add something. I believe the above rhetoric you are challenging is the same rhetoric that the GLBT movement has also fed the conservative right.
In fact I believe that many organizations/movements/groups have used this same rhetoric. I have heard countless groups from the conservative (and bigoted, I might add) right to the GLBT try to convince us over the years that WE are the ones who need to change OUR perspective–our way of communicating–our way of thinking. I am not surprised by Toby’s comment–nor do I think anyone should be. The very sad reality is that we live in a non-tolerant society which clings with every fiber of it’s being to that which is safe and known and comforting–unfortunately those very things/beliefs we cling to bring about insidious division and harm to many who choose not to conform. This harm is most profound when it is delivered by the leaders of our communities–whether it be gay or straight.
If I read you correctly (and I am most prepared to say that I did not) your sense of betrayal has been more harshly felt because it was delivered by someone who is known as a gay-friendly individual. It is difficult when the voice which should be supportive of our cause/lifestyle betrays our trust.
I would simply encourage you that forums such as these may be one of the keys to enlightening said voices as to how careful they must be when voicing their opinion–as must we all be, I think. You, by posting, have begun the first step in educating those who would seek to be a voice for many–I continue to have hope that discussions such as these–honest, questioning, with the right touch of humor will continue to break down walls and expose wrong thinking on both sides of the issues. For your contributions toward that outcome I thank you.
Repectfully yours,
Sammy
Firstly, let me say that I’m not deep. Nor am I philosphical, regardless of what that piece of paper from a higher-learning institution might say.
I write happy little angst-filled M/M romances, and while my characters may exclaim “God” or “Jesus” or even “Christ” (or any combination thereof) at various points, none of them are particularly religious.
This isn’t because I have anything against religion in general or Christianity in particular, but because religion has never been a large part of my life. It’s not something I think about in any sort of organized fashion, and as such, I have difficulty accessing the mind-set of someone for whom it’s a strong consideration.
I actually studied religion in college; especially the philosophy of religion. Not because I was searching for God, as so many of my classmates seemed to be, but because I never understood the driving need to be a part of something that seems so nebulous to me. My characters seem to share that trait, for the most part.
This is not to say that I don’t believe there’s something more out there than just us as individuals, but I have difficulty with the concept of there being only one right, true thing. ONE way that’s for everyone, and that anyone who believes something different is destined to suffer for eternity.
So as far as religion goes, it doesn’t really have a role in my stories, mostly because of what I said above.
It’s not something that informs my everyday life and I don’t feel that I could write a ‘religious’ character well or convincingly.
Many props to those who can. I have nothing but respect for them. For me, though, it’s just not my thing. *shrugs*
Very interesting post, Josh, and the few comments I’ve read so far have been intriguing. Thanks! 🙂
~Tis
Thanks for your thoughts, Tis!
Oops, you know, I made an error using the word “SHOULD.” Stuart objected to my saying gay people should want a more inclusive and forward looking religion. Obviously, people don’t like being told what they should and shouldn’t do. I really didn’t mean ti like that. It seems to me that religion is the cause of most of the problems that homosexuals encounter. It’s the justification for denying us “equal rights”; it’s the justification parents have for throwing their children out to the streets.
This is probably not what religion “should” be, but it is what it is.
It seems like gay people have been on the various “cutting edges of evolution” for a long time: the artists, poets, scientists who see what’s ahead. Since we’re talking about writing fiction, let me give a heads up here to Arthur C. Clarke, a wonderful example of the homosexual a seer.
If Stuart finds his religion satisfying and inspiring, then of course he has no need to think about it any other way. It is working for him.
For somebody else who finds that same religion to be a source of guilt and shame, they CAN rise above it and find a source of personal solace and meaning in post-religious “spirituality.”
What we all “should” do is live happy, fulfilled, contributing, participating lives. There’s no “should” in that particular “should.” Religion helps or hinders that.
On the other hand, let me comment boldly that any religion that has burned people to death alive to prove its authority has given up any claim to speak for “God.” But that’s just my opinion; I could be wrong.
I started writing m/m fiction after four years of being an interfaith news reporter. It would have been odd if my characters hadn’t possessed faith beliefs.
So they’ve believed in everything under the sun: monotheism, polytheism, pluriform monotheism, monolatrism, incarnation, ancestor veneration, agnosticism, and atheism. Their beliefs aren’t always front-and-center in the story; often, their beliefs are merely part of the general background. They’re in prison, so they pray, or they make cynical remarks about prayer. They’re running a house of prostitution, which either fits in with their beliefs about spirituality, or it doesn’t. They do BDSM, and then they go to church on Sunday, or else they do other things. Religion, spirituality, or lack of faith are simply part of the overall pattern of their lives.
I once co-chaired a panel at a slash fiction convention on religion and spirituality in slash. What a lot of writers said there was that they would have liked to write about their characters’ religion/spirituality, but they were afraid to. They feared that their readers would be offended, especially if the topic of their story was sex.
I’ve only had one time when I found myself worrying about the religious issue. That was when I was writing Waterman, which is set in an imaginary version of the Chesapeake Bay in Maryland. A goodly amount of the first novel is about watermen: the commercial fishermen in the Chesapeake area). The people who live in watermen’s communities in our world are often religiously conservative. I paralleled that in my imaginary world, showing the waterman as belonging to the most conservative branch of an imaginary religion. But I did worry about what would happen if one of those religiously conservative folks, in the real-world version of some of the tiny communities that I was writing about, happened to run across my stories. I didn’t want to offend them.
But I couldn’t write the series any other way than I did.
What literary agent/writing critic Scott Meredith called the “plot skeleton” that is inherently required in every novel is itself almost inherently moral.
Most satisfying novels/movies/plays portray a character undergoing an ordeal or quest in order to solve some problem; his or her success is the resolution of the story and what makes it enjoyable. And the resolution is almost always morally right. Most readers wouldn’t be satisfied with a plot in which the main character resolves the problem by mean, petty behavior or by deceitfulness or crime.
The hero needs to be heroic–even the so-called anti-hero.
It’s in the plot skeleton that authors get to express their messages–which are often about things like “the meaning of life” or the “goodness of man.” The story is about how the protagonist copes with the problem in the “right” way. (The main character’s “rightness” is contained in the word “protagonist.”) Almost all gay/lesbian/queer novels communicate some kind of positive message about the nature of homosexuality.
These are the real issues of religion and spirituality. So while a detective, sci-fi or romance novel may not deal with religion and Church affiliation explicitly, I propose it is likely offering something like a “spiritual message” just by being a good story with a satisfying ending. This is especially so about the spec fic genre.
Thanks, Dusk and Toby both for your additional thoughts and comments. Great insights.
Dusk, your Waterman intrigued me from the moment I saw the book trailer. I’m glad to be reminded of it.
Good heavens, somebody who actually takes the trouble to watch one of my booktrailers. 🙂
Realizing of course I’ve found myself SERIOUSLy behind on this conversation, let me say as the son of a minister, I have thought this subject through for a great many years. I won’t try to convince anyone either, although I do have documentaries with pretty “mainstream” spiritual leaders on my website who make a pretty convincing case for why the subject isn’t the minefield everyone makes it. One of my latest books,Dillon’s Prayer has gotten a fair amount of “attention” due to it’s fairly specific theme of Christianity as it concerns Homosexuality. The fact that it is also an “erotic” novel hasn’t gone unnoticed. My hope was/is that for those who like to believe that spirituality and homosexuality are mutually exclusive would look at the fact that the religious right are in large part responsible for that divide, NOT God or the gay community. Most gay people just assume there is no place for them in the church. That is ridiculous! I am very proud to be a member of the community as well as a proud child of God… Anybody who wants to condemn my soul to hell, well, clean up your own house, then we’ll talk. Bottom line is, I think m/m writers, if they want can, and should address issues of spirituality if it’s relevant to the story. It is another step in reducing the ignorance surrounding the whole issue.
Kisses from the south.
Blake
I’m in complete agreement, Blake.
I’m pleased to see more and more m/m romances tackling the topic of faith.