ANGST: When Is Too Much WAY Too Much?

116 comments

• 

  HAHA, so pleased to be the reason for your inspiration Wave :), I hopefully will get a chance to participate more tonight. I do think that well written angst is very very popular right now, and the more the better. I do not have the statistics of course, but I see how well certain books are received and after I read some of those books I usually start looking for a gun to shoot myself (kidding of course but not quite, I definitely feel miserable happy ending or not). I am perfectly fine with some angst in the story, but when ONLY BAD THINGS HAPPEN to characters for 90% of the story, I cant deal. And really, even when bad things happen I really like when characters do not do the monologues in the head for pages and pages, just my personal preference. Remember you reviewed Paper planes by Jules Aedin? There was a real grief in that book and it was so beatifully handled but I did not get a feeling that it was full of angst. Hope I am making sense. Later.

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    Hi Sirius. See how much trouble I’m in now. 😆

    I’m so sick of reading depressing books where the characters go through so much for a miserable couple of pages at the end – their HEA.

    You’re right about Paper Planes. Even though there was angst in this book there was a light touch and the characters didn’t go into a major depression and this made the book wonderful.

• 

  Thanks to a certain writer/blogger in particular, I’ve realized it has more to do with the attitude of the writer than with the amount of angst in the story. This author would occasionally squee (and I am not exaggerating) about passages she had just written because she knew they would break her readers’ hearts. She got off on it, in her own words.

  Angst that is there to serve the story is always fine with me. Angst that seems more manipulative than organic makes me angry and often will put an author on my do not buy list permanently.

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    Hi Riga

    This author would occasionally squee (and I am not exaggerating) about passages she had just written because she knew they would break her readers’ hearts. She got off on it, in her own words.

    There are many authors who delight in taking their characters to the edge and pushing them off and the readers are left in sobbing throughout most of the book. Probably this author is one whose books I no longer review because I can see the angst overload coming.

• 

  “I don’t equate good writing with the amount and level of angst in a romance, and I don’t believe many of you do, so why do some authors feel that hyping the angst to an unbearable level (your mileage may vary) makes a romance more marketable and therefore generate increased sales?”

  Honestly, I don’t know a single writer who worries about being “marketable” when they’re writing. I know popular opinion seems to be that we’re all rubbing our hands together in money-mongering glee, trying to figure out what will sell the most, but I have yet to meet an author who thinks that way. Most of us are just trying to spill the story in our brain out onto the page before it destroys what remains of our sanity.

  For myself, sometimes there’s angst and sometimes there isn’t. It depends entirely on the characters. “Marketable” never enters my consideration.

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    Marie
    There are many authors who manipulate the readers in different ways through angst. Some may not do it for monetary gain but there is definitely a feeling that they load up their books with angst because they get off on it. (See the comment from Riga above)

    Your books have never contained what I consider to be over the top angst – you include certain elements because the story demands it, however I’m sorry but I can’t say that about some of the books I have read which shove just about every depressing theme in the readers’ faces. Sometimes it seems that there’s no fun in reading these books any more.

    • 

      I have no doubt that some authors like to angst-pack their books. My only point is, I don’t know a single one who does it in order to be “marketable”.

      • 

        Absolutely, Marie. It’s never about being marketable–it’s always about where the characters are going in our heads. And as for writers who rub their hands and “squee”–usually that’s because moving someone emotionally–either to laughter OR tears means that we’ve done our jobs. Making characters so real that people feel for them and love them and ache for them–that’s an accomplishment. That means that we’ve worked hard on our craft. Writing angst and pain isn’t easy.

        People ask me why the Talker books (all three of them very soon) are so short.

        IT’S BECAUSE THEY HURT TO WRITE.

        I couldn’t live in that world of pain with Brian and Tate for too long. I used compressed language and the prose-poetry of flashbacks to condense their story because it’s simply not good for my soul to live too long in the places where monsters are. And yeah– when you’re talking about doing something like that, WRITING something like that, you’re going to get facetious. “This one’s gonna hurt! Muahahahahahaha!!!” But if it’s real character generated angst, it hurt the author first, in a thousand different, painful ways, and no amount of joking about being a sadistic character-torturing bitch is going to change that a truly painful book TRULY takes something out of you that you fear being able to get back.

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          Hi Amy

          You responded to a comment by Marie regarding what I said about some authors writing books with an overload of angst because they believed it would make them more marketable.

          Here is my rationale for that assumption: It seems to me that very few authors would write books that they know will go in the remainder pile almost immediately. Although many writers write for pleasure, I find it difficult to believe that there is no expectation on most authors’ part that an investment of their time in a creative effort such as writing would not yield a benefit such as finding a market for that product i.e. book, and if they are lucky, generate reasonable sales. Many writers have told me that they write to supplement their incomes so I have to believe them. Marketing and sales are not dirty words. Sales are what people expect when they invest in something tangible that produces a product, and a book is a product, albeit a creative effort, otherwise why sell it – why not give it away? Why go through the process of finding a publisher, the agony of the editing process, and finally, “marketing” or promoting the book after it is released, through blog appearances, interviews, information on their websites etc. if there was no expectation this would generate sales?

          Amping up the angst in M/M romances has been a trend I’ve noticed particularly over the past couple of years, and I’m sure it’s no coincidence that authors have emulated other writers whose trademark or signature is extreme angst because they have seen how popular they have become simply because their books pile on the angst.

          There’s nothing wrong with angst per se but when it becomes the plot, and the book becomes a series of angst ridden incidents, that’s where I draw the line. As I said in the post “a high level of angst in a book is no substitute for a good plot, intelligent prose and dialogue as well as three dimensional characters, qualities that make stories memorable. No amount of angst can cover up deficiencies in a plot or failure to write an interesting story that holds a reader’s interest from cover to cover.” As a reader, when I buy a book I search for stories not a bunch of angst ridden incidents that range from the Big Misunderstanding, an overload of whining or griping, rape, beating a character almost to death, extreme homophobia that results again in beatings, and everything else the writer can throw at me to hype the level of angst. This is supposed to be romance??? I might as well read horror. There is violence in fiction and there is M/M “romance” violence where all bets are off.

          The world is a dark enough place, and while I can live in an author’s world for a while where horrible and sadistic things happen to his or her characters, doing so ad nauseum is not my idea of a good time, entertainment or the kinds of books I want to read. Angst as a plot device for its own sake is not a plot for a book, and I’ve read too many books like that to want to continue to do so.

          Of course I can only speak for myself and I know that many readers love angst, why else would these books be so popular? However there is an equal number of readers who are rebelling because they feel manipulated by authors who pile on the angst.

          Here’s a comment by Saga which illustrates my point:

          I have read some books lately where I got the feeling that the author used angst like a cruel child would pick the legs of a spider, one at a time, while laughing…

          Really not a fan of the raping, torturing and ultimate suffering trends we’ve seen lately.

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    Heidi and Marie while I am not Wave I am going to try to explain why I may have come to a similar conclusion about some writers watching the market, watching the trends, etc. It is of course pure speculation based only on reading their works, but some writers made me think that they discovered that books written with certain formula in mind sell and sell well and they do not want to move an inch from that formula. What other assumption am I supposed to make? I mean the second possibility is of course that such writer is uncapable of creativity, but I would think it will be even less flattering to the writer? Yes, sure certain angst may be organic to the story and I often like it, but if writer keeps piling up angst more and more and more, for me it often starts to affect plot and characterization too. I had been reading a book recently which made a couple from earlier book in the series go through another very bad lifethreatening thing. Let’s put aside my groaning and thinking how many bad things can those two guys go through during their life time, but the way they deal with this thing also made me think that their brains were affected by stoopid disease. Because otherwise I could not for the life of me figure out why they would postpone dealing with something which they were forewarned well in advance till the guy’s life was in danger again. The only reason I could see was to make me suffer through pages and pages of misery.

    But also if writer writes essentially same perfect flawless protagonists, and I know I bought every book shhe wrote, it makes me think that she does not want to step away from the formula. Hope I make sense.

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      Well, maybe some do. It’s possible. I don’t think many are successful though, which may be your point. I think this is just one of my !!!!!!! buttons because holy shit, most of us really *can’t* even more than we don’t.

      Or I might be jealous of those who do and make it work. Because if they do and make it work, then I have to hate them. Quietly.

      • 

        Well, actually I was trying to say that I think these two writers are quite succesful. I do not have any data of course, do not know them personally, etc, just basing my speculative conclusions on internet talks and on my personal experience. I buy every book that the writer who does perfect flawless protagonists writes – no exception so far. And she wrote quite a few books by now. Now I may roll eyes at myself and keep reminding myself that she is *the only* writer whose books with Mary Sue protagonists I buy, but I *do buy* them, so she must have been doing something right from marketing point of view? And as far as I know at least fellow readers whom I talk to quite regularly buy her books on pretty regular basis too. So I guess to go back to my earlier point, I speculate that her books sell well and she does watch the market and thus she sells the same thing over and over and over again. I mean she does not do same plots, but I maintain that in 95% of her works you can change the name of her narrator and his profession and you can easily switch them between her books. Now, then we have you (and I am not just being flattering because I am talking to you, please believe me), who tries different subjects, who writes complex, flawed interesting characters, who makes me care for them as if they were real people. I wonder now (even though I am keeping my fingers crossed that you won’t do that lol, just a wish as a reader) maybe it will make financial sense for you to pick your most best selling book and repackage it so to speak? Oy, I hope not.

        But I digress,I was just trying to explain why I thought that some writers do write to sell books first and foremost, even if the example was not about angst. My other example, the super angsty writer, I am basically giving up on, but I also know that a lot of my fellow readers eat her books up, so maybe it is working well for her too? I have no idea.

• 

  Angst is decidedly something some people care for and others don’t. However, I’m going to take issue with this:

  “I don’t equate good writing with the amount and level of angst in a romance, and I don’t believe many of you do, so why do some authors feel that hyping the angst to an unbearable level (your mileage may vary) makes a romance more marketable and therefore generate increased sales?”

  This seems to be a current misconception I’d like to clear up. It’s theoretically possible that there are authors out there robotic enough to try to write to trends. However, I am very suspicious of these authors being published. In fact, they’re likely to live in small one-room apartments with the walls plastered with web page printouts with odd words circled and lines drawn between them, and they’re probably talking to the mold on top of their forgotten coffee cup.

  I do not know a single published author who is able to write as if she has a laundry list. I don’t know where this idea came from, but I’d like to stake it dead now. We do not get laundry lists from our publishers. We do not analyze bestseller lists and have secret spreadsheets of trends. It’s possible we might at times say, “Goddamn, but cowboy books sell. I’d like to write a cowboy book.” Even then we have to actually write the thing. And then it has to be decent. This is actually a significant amount of work. Speaking personally, my “writing to market” extends as far as liking to keep at least one contemporary in the works because they sell better than fantasies or paranormals or historicals. Even then I can only manage that because I do have story ideas for both contemporary and not-contemporary.

  That said, my suspicion of their being a lot of angst in m/m is twofold. One, male emotional porn is probably a greater treat to many readers than sex. In societies where male emotion must be limited to anger or not-anger, watching men wrestle with pain and panic and confusion and seeing their inner selves is delicious. Yes, it’s often handled less than gracefully, but I think it’s like pizza. For many readers, even when it’s bad it’s good. The other issue is that I suspect sometimes authors still honing their craft don’t yet have subtlety enough to learn that when it comes to angst, less is often more. Unless you’re Harper Fox. Holy shit, she is the queen of angst, and she does it well.

  But man alive. I swear on all that is holy, there are no authorial secret meetings, no publisher lists of demands, and no market-chasing. We barely have time to do laundry. Writing to market is so beyond our ken it isn’t even funny.

  • 

    *snort*

    Love it. I wish I did have a ticky box list of Stuffs to put in. Might make my life easier. “Have I done the h/c yet? NO! Hurrah!”

    And yes re the point regarding Trends. By the time I had written “to trend” and found a publisher and got it published the trend would be so last century it wouldn’t be funny. Simply not worth doing it. And knowing my luck with always standing in the wrong line in the queue, or always buying technology at EXACTLY the wrong moment–or the classic “Sold her book to a mainstream publisher all set for m/m to burst onto the scene when RECESSION strikes and publisher downsizes…” Whatever trend I decided to follow would have folded up by the time I’d written it. :drinkin:

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      I wonder if it’s human nature for us to want to group things. It always seems weird when there is a glut of something. Suddenly there will be three “werewolves battle vampires” movies within three months. I’m pretty sure 2 years ago 3 different studios didn’t get together and say “this will be hot let’s do it” but they show up anyway. Same with books. Suddenly it seems vampires (or historicals or werewolves or football) are all the rage and they are EVERYWHERE and you’d think people are jumping on a trend, but we forget lead-time on creative projects. However it does seem our brains are predisposed to finding patterns in the world around us.

      • 

        “However it does seem our brains are predisposed to finding patterns in the world around us.”

        They actually are! It’s why casinos make money. We’re sure we’re due to win or that black has to come up because it’s been red “too long.” Our brains hate random a lot. But the world mostly is. Which is scary, so we make stuff up in self-defense.

      • 

        You’re absolutely right. There are definitely trends, and it is odd. I remember one of the Dreamspinner people telling me, “We’ve received a ton of cowboy submissions all of a sudden,” and my answer was, “Great. I just finished my cowboy book, too.” Why does it happen? I sure don’t know. What I do know is that it’s not because we all had secret meetings analyzing market trends. LOL.

      • 

        Oh some people definitely write on trend, and they write fast enough to do it – I believe Josh is capable of writing a novella a month, but he doesn’t exactly write to trend, but some people do. Same as how there will be more vampire movies, I’m sure, even though Twiglet has finished. (I think..)

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      Erastes

      This post is about angst in contemporary romances. I don’t believe historicals have as much angst as contemps. Paranormals generally have even less – I can’t figure out why.

      Whatever trend I decided to follow would have folded up by the time I’d written it. :drinkin:

      You should invest in fortune teller or Ouija board to get the up to date trends. 😀

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    Oh hell. “That said, my suspicion of their”

    THERE.

    I’ve only had one cup of coffee. And now you know I really do need an editor. I always feel I should send them a fifth.

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    Hi Heidi

    But man alive. I swear on all that is holy, there are no authorial secret meetings, no publisher lists of demands, and no market-chasing.

    Damn! there goes that theory. 😆

    Seriously, a lot of M/M stories have so many similar features that involve angst (the proliferation of rapes and other violent actions against the MCs, the Big Misunderstanding, etc.,) that either lots of authors are copying themes that they see are selling or it’s one big BORG hive out there. 🙂

    Because I read so many books every year there is a sameness about levels of angst that seem to be going up every month. Sure, more experienced writers know how to be creative while newer writers are less able to build nuanced characters and build realistic plots. I think I mentioned that many authors know how to rein it in but there is a whole cauldron of books out there with levels of angst that are through the roof.

    Some of these stories actually make the MCs seem stupid because so much seems to happen in their lives of which they are unaware.

    Whatever the reason, the level of angst has accelerated recently and I know which authors’ books to avoid so that I can minimize the damage to my brain.

    • 

      In all seriousness? The Borg theory is probably the truth. It’s a long-documented phenomenon. They even did an article about it in the RWR years ago. The pretty word is serindipity, but Borg isn’t far off.

      Someday they’ll figure out a way to explain it scientifically, but right now it’s just plain old juju. I was writing and had nearly completed an historical about a stammerer before The King’s Speech came out. I wrote about Roe Davis running before I’d read Marie’s A to Z. In fact, I was standing in front of her as I read it, and I put the book down and said, “So you know, I’d already written Roe before I read this.” It really does just happen. Has happened forever. I don’t know if it’s cosmic soup or the moon and stars or the water or commercial additives, but there is a Borg mind, and it’s weird. You just get used to it.

      But no meetings. In fact, most authors when they realize they’ve written serindipty freak out. I can think of twenty examples across genres just off the top of my head and even then only from the last decade. If I worked harder I could get you fifty by lunch.

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    Hi Heidi

    We do not get laundry lists from our publishers.

    Here’s a comment from K.Z. Snow which seems to confirm what I’m saying, at least from one publisher:

    I do know of at least one publisher (with high visibility, too) that prefers saturation levels of angst. I once submitted a ms. there and was asked, very politely and professionally, to make the MCs suffer more — keep them apart, put them in danger, inflict some HURT!

    With instructions like that it’s no wonder that there’s an increase in the levels of angst overall in M/M romances. These books are supposed to be romances but at times I feel that they rival murder mysteries for the amount of hurt inflicted on the MCs.

    • 

      See, I read that as a clumsy way of asking to up the stakes. Which might not have been right for KZ’s book, which was why it was good of her to walk away.

      Wave, I love you, but I swear on all that is holy there are no secret meetings, no to do and not do lists. Just weird coincidences and probably some dead chickens for animal sacrifice. It’s true there are editors and houses who will say, “Could you do this?” But nobody gets a sheet of paper after their contract saying “Must include X.” They will on occasion make a call for “super hero stories” or some such. But that’s about it. And upping the sexual content–that happens in New York too. Authors can and do say no to those things too.

      • 

        Okay, the dead chickens are probably why this is happening. 😮 😯

        The sex is another post altogether but not this month or next. Oh wait, I already did that one. Darn! 😀

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  I’m kind of on the border. There are some angsty books that I’ve really enjoyed, but I have to be in the mood for it. If I’m already feeling a bit blue, I stay away from angst. I don’t mind if you make me sniffle a bit, just don’t drag it out for 300+ pages.

  I did a post on “are there fewer 5* books out there or am I just getting harsher” and what came up for me and a couple of others was humour. For me, if you can make me laugh out loud, literally, not the on-line LOL, then I will pretty much give you a 5 star rating. Even if there are plot holes and the guy’s shirt changed colour three times within a scene. (my bugaboo)

  I’m not sure if humour is harder to do than angst, but I think it’s more complex. We all feel bad when someone is raped, beaten, abandoned by their family and treated cruelly. There are pretty much universal reactions to those tragedies. Sure not everyone gets sniffly, but no one is going to say losing your leg in a car crash is “no big deal”. However humour is something else. It can go too far and become annoying, it can be too dark and sarcastic for some people (not me personally), it can be cultural (what’s funny to a Brit is not funny to a Brazillian – in theory), I find it can be hard for authors to maintain for a longer story, starts out really funny then tapers off. So I think because there are more vagaries to humour and it’s much more personal, I appreciate it more when it really works. Sure, you can make me cry. Write about child abuse, death, family abandonment (some issues that affect me) and I’ll bawl my eyes out for your character. Make me laugh? That’s harder.

  Okay, off topic, but I don’t like extreme angst, it has to be tempered, but that’s not to say there aren’t uber-angsty books I haven’t loved. I just don’t seek them out as a rule.

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    I’m with Tam here – humour is far more important to me than angst. If a book makes me laugh, then the moments of far milder angst will affect me deeper than books which pile it on in spades.

    As to whether authors write things to trends – I doubt many do, but there’s certainly a lot of writing advice out there saying you need to keep upping the stakes to maintain tension. I’ve often read the advice: “torture your characters”. This might be a good idea for those writing adventures, thrillers and so on, but I’m not sure it’s necessarily the best idea for romance. The torture needs to be a more subtle kind, I feel.

    But then again, maybe that’s just my personal bias. I’ve always preferred comedy to serious drama.

    • 

      Hi Jo

      I’ve often read the advice: “torture your characters”.

      I think some authors are taking this advice too literally.

      Everything is great in moderation but lately it seems that almost every book I pick up has angst overload. Recently I’ve taken to checking the blurbs carefully before I decide to read a romance because there are a few tells there although I still get caught.

      Romantic comedy is great to temper all of these depressing books. Maybe I should read a few horrors – I’m sure they can’t be any worse than some of these romances.

      • 

        You know, I am looking at your Kafka’s quote and reading your thought on romantic comedy and thinking about “Almost like being in love” by Steve Kluger. Now, by no means I want to say that I only enjoy the books as lighthearted as this one, quite the contrary. I like heavy reading too, I read and loved the books in this genre where bad things happen to the guys. However I am just thinking how very effectively Steve Kluger made me choke up several times in between all the humor and lightheartedness without beating me over the head over and OVER with pages and pages of internal monologues. I will never forget how during one of Greg’s turns to narrate he almost casually mentions how he had to spend hours in hospitals and loose friends to AIDS. I am telling you – choked up right there. Or when Greg again (and then Travis) mention how Clay was abused by his father. So awesome IMO. I wish not for all authors writing the same books, but for many of them being able to write so well. This book certainly delivered several “blows to the head” for me and unexpectedly too.

        • 

          Sirius

          Almost Like Being In Love by Steve Kluger is one of my most favourite books that I re-read several times a year. That man is a writer that I never get tired of. ALBIL had a lot of angst but he didn’t beat you over the head with a big stick. It was subtle and there was lots of humour – that made all the difference. I still can’t explain WHY I love this book so much – I just do.

          M/M authors should read ALBIL and learn how to write angst that’s effective but doesn’t overwhelm the reader.

          ALBIL was my top book in 2009.

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    Tam
    Like you, I have read many angsty books that I’ve enjoyed. The Cut & Run series has a lot of angst but it always furthers the plot and is not there because …. I LOVE that series but that’s because the authors can WRITE and they don’t use angst for its own sake.

    As I said in the post, the more experienced authors know when to rein it in and not do a dump (no, not that kind Tam 😀 ) and they also add humour to relieve the stress of reading about all the BAD THINGS that happen to their characters. However, I don’t think it’s my imagination that the level of angst in M/M romances is going up and up and up.

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  Buda & Angst? That´s not a secret 😀
  Thank you for your post Wave 😎

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    I just saw a comment from him and it looks like even Buda is off angst. 🙁

    • 

      Oh I wouldn’t go that far. I’d just say I’ve found my ceiling. I still love a good angst-fest–emphasis on good.

      • 

        I think I found my celling too Buda, I suspect it may have been a bit lower than yours from the beginning but it is getting even lower now 🙂

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  I admit that I started out writing more angst and injuries than I do now, because I’d come from fandom and things like hurt/comfort and “oh noes we can ever be togebber” were staples and you knew that the fandom fans would lap it up. As I learn, I think that I’m reining back on that now, don’t think anyone’s actually been injured in one of my books for ….oh. No, I’m wrong there, Muffled Drum had battle injuries. Ooops.

  Part of the problem is – I think – and this is a huge generalisation because there are many many authors who can PLOT – that people use the angst and the injuries as The Main Plot rather than side effects of what is going on. Yes, we can still have the “oh noes we can never be togebber” subplot, but for gawd’s sake let’s have the MCs doing something else while they worry about it, in stead of just sitting down and staring out of the window for chapters.

  I think I’ve only read one book where I could have happily horse-whipped the main character for being a whiner for the entire book, but there are many who need a swift kick up the pants.

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    Erastes

    Part of the problem is – I think – and this is a huge generalisation because there are many many authors who can PLOT – that people use the angst and the injuries as The Main Plot rather than side effects of what is going on.

    That’s exactly what I said in the post, that the angst becomes the focus of the story rather than the romance. Why bother writing a real plot when you can just call up gang rapes, beatings, etc. and add in a Big Misunderstanding and some whining and presto a ready made M/M romance. Of course I’m being facetious, but not really because that’s the theme in a lot of these books.

• 

  Guys it’s now 10.05 EST and I have to leave but I’ll be back at 4.00 P.M. to answer your comments and try to avoid the brickbats. 🙂

• 

  For my taste, less is definitely more when it comes to angst.
  I think there’s a fine line between angst and satire. And having a character whose dog dies, he gets bitten by a werewolf, his boyfriend dumps him, the landlord evicts him, he gets mugged, and is than run over by a truck and ends up half dead in the hospital where he falls madly in love with his doctor, a deeply closeted werewolf who is supposed to marry the alpha’s daughter in order to prevent a war between their packs, so he pushes our hero away in order to protect him, but 7 years later things are different (or he’s had enough) so he seeks our hero out, only to find he doesn’t remember him. Yet they fall in love all over again and despite the odds, and the machinations of the alpha and his daughter ride off into the sunset. Maybe. ‘Coz, you know shi* happens and maybe they are struck by an asteroid 5 mins after the end.
  Anyhoo, what I’m trying to say is that (imho) in order for the book to be believable, the angst can’t be there simply for angst sake. Yes, I love the tortured hero theme as much as the next person, but when it starts bordering the ridiculous (or makes you think the hero is tstl) it ruins the entire book. And heaping trouble upon trouble on the MCs without breathing room and then accepting a hea like it’s the most natural thing in the world just doesn’t add up.
  Also,
  “so readers will feel they deserve a happy ending”
  this makes me think that maybe the author feels that way, which in turn makes me wonder why write about those characters at all. 😕

  • 

    “the angst can’t be there simply for angst sake”

    Totally agree! The angst has to have a purpose in there aside from just basically torturing the MC. What happens is that multitude of angsty events becomes the plot itself, rather than there having a definite and solid plot that perhaps causes the MCs some angst once in a while.

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    :hysterics: NOw that’s a plot to behold, Eva! Don’t tell me it’s actually out there! 😯

    • 

      Luckily no. But, I’ve run across a couple of books where the plots are similarly ridiculous in the amount of grief and angst the MCs go through before the hea. You don’t know whether to laugh, cry or just :wallbash: while reading.

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    Eva

    I laughed my ass off when I read your first paragraph. That’s exactly what I’m talking about – piling the angst on and on and on times 5.

    Like you, I believe that the angst in a romance should not drive the plot or BE the plot as has been happening recently, however many authors just can’t be bothered to give us a story and they string together a number of disasters happening to their heroes and wrap it up into a HEA. Forget characterization or a real plot, all they do is create angsty situations and hope tht we don’t notice.

    I’m now much more discriminating when I buy a book or choose one to review, but it doesn’t seem to matter because I still get caught since there are so many books like the one you mentioned..

  • 

    Eva – Your first paragraph is hilarious and spot on. Thank you. :hysterics:

  • 

    Let me join the others eva in thanking you for very effective summation. 😀

• 

  Interesting…

  Normally I love angst-filled books (especially if they make me cry out loud for about half an hour or more), but there are certain tropes that get old after a while. Most of the time, for me, it’s not about the level of angst in it, it’s about what causes the angst. Like you said, Wave, gang rape is becoming more frequent. And because I encounter more stories with angst caused by that, I become more apathetic and I kind of believe it less.

  I don’t think I have a definite cap to the angst bottle. But I do think one bad thing is enough for an MC. Usually when something significantly bad happens to us, we linger on it long enough that it can cause us much angst. Adding more to it would just make us, as humans, reach a breaking point. That’s what makes some of the angst so hard to believe – humans are resilient, sure, but how can someone who’s been through all that be suddenly healed by the power of love? It takes a lot more than talking about it to get over it. I’m surprised these MCs don’t kill themselves when the only thing fate seems to be doing is repeatedly kicking them in their groin area.

  But yeah, these MCs need to do something aside from beating themselves more by refusing to talk and by shutting themselves away. When this happens, an image of Bella Swan when Edward leaves New Moon comes to mind. (Don’t ask how I know how she acts; I was dragged by my best friends into watching the movie. I never even finished the first book.) It’s just unrealistic for them to be unable to do anything to cope. When I have my angst-filled days, I don’t just sit around and wait for the world to end.

  I guess what I’m trying to say here is that more often than not, the way the main characters handle the Big Angsty Event (TM) is what makes it all seem unrealistic. C’mon, MC, I know you were beaten up by gay bashers – but at least try to get out of your corner and eat some ice cream.

  Anyway, sorry if that was a bit off-topic. As you can all see, I tend to ramble. Feel free to ignore me if you deem my comment useless to the discussion.

  • 

    I actually recently read a book (Loretta Chase, “Lord of Scoundrels”) where the hero was given the most amazing pile of heartbreaking events in his past–and then there was no angst in the book. Even his moments when he had to wrestle with the darkest shades of his past, it was handled almost in humor. It was absolutely brilliant.

    All story is born of conflict, and character pain is the staple of all romances of all genres and settings. But it isn’t even remotely necessary for the characters to weep buckets of tears across the page. In fact, it’s usually more powerful when they face things like most of us do: with denial, black humor, avoidance, and projection. It takes a lot of skill to do that, and in an odd way bravery too. Because it seems a lesser sin to emote too much than try to keep a character from angsting and have him read as cold or indifferent. Finding those shades of grey takes a lot of chops.

    • 

      OOOO I completely agree. I saw Raine on the thread recommending your “Dance with me”, so may I just second her and say that I think you did such an awesome job in creating flawed, interesting, likeable characters? They have problems, they have insecurities, they are recognisable and they do not spend lots of time angsting, just enough IMO. And as Raine said they even manage to talk when they have a problem :).

      • 

        Aw, shucks, guys. Thanks.

        • 

          And I wish Damon would review it soon. 🙂 Hope he’s back from Italy.

    • 

      Thank you for pointing out that book! My stepfather and I were discussing this over lunch today, and we both came to the conclusion that anger, disappointment, and frustration are the reflexive emotions that we, as humans, fall back to whenever tragedy strikes us. Of course, there is grief and depression, but like you said, there is a stage of denial that comes before it.

      Also, let me just take the chance to tell you that I bought Dance With Me and I am definitely looking forward to reading it! I’ve never read any books of yours before (although I do plan to remedy that soon!) and gosh, I’ve been hearing so many good things about it that I’m just pumped up and desperate to move on with my TBR pile. LOL. I have a feeling it will be the best $7.99 I’ve ever spent.

  • 

    Beatrice

    Like you said, Wave, gang rape is becoming more frequent. And because I encounter more stories with angst caused by that, I become more apathetic and I kind of believe it less.

    This is my point. I read a theme in one book and a week later 10 books have the same angsty theme and eventually we become desensitized to it. It can’t all be coincidence that so many authors are hyping the angst in their M/M romances.

    You right that one major angsty event is more than enough to happen to the MCs, but when a series of bad things happen I wonder what’s the purpose? Is it to make us sorry for the character, burst into tears, or curl up and die?

    All romances need conflict to make them interesting however what we’re getting is not conflict but a series of angsty events in the MC’s lives that make them miserable. Who dreams up these things?

    I think your comments are very relevant to the discussion Beatrice and thank you for chiming in.

    • 

      “Is it to make us sorry for the character, burst into tears, or curl up and die?”

      Personally, I think it’s used to compensate for what otherwise could’ve been a very flat character. Authors want the readers to be able to connect or at least sympathize on some level with the MC, and to be able to achieve that, they have to come up with really awesome characters. If that can’t be done, then I guess the next option would be to make the MC suffer a lot to aggressively and forcefully evoke some sort of sympathy for the MC. At least, that’s my view on it.

      Reiterating what I said to Eva, these far-too-angsty books don’t really have conflicts and plots. Rather, they compile the multitude of bad events and pass them off as a so-called “plot” instead of having it the other way around – which is essentially the solid plot giving way to the angst.

• 

  I do know of at least one publisher (with high visibility, too) that prefers saturation levels of angst. I once submitted a ms. there and was asked, very politely and professionally, to make the MCs suffer more — keep them apart, put them in danger, inflict some HURT!

  I decided against it and published the book elsewhere.

  However, that’s the only time I’ve come across this mindset. More common in my experience is an editorial preference for sex scenes. And the more and kinkier, the better.

  • 

    Hey KZ
    Great to see you and have you join in the discussion. 🙂

    A few publishers requiring authors to increase the level of angst in their books is an open secret. Don’t know why this is in such demand because while many readers like angst they would just as soon have it tempered, going by the comments in response to this post.

  • 

    in my experience is an editorial preference for sex scenes. And the more and kinkier, the better.

    And let me just say this about that. As much as the angst level has been rising, so has the kink level–often for absolutely no reason. I’m not saying it should be all vanilla all the time because that would be boring. But so is this high saturation of BDSM. It is possible to be inventive and imaginative and fun with a sex scene without someone dragging out the whips and chains, no matter what Rihanna says.

    (Sorry, KZ, this wasn’t directed at your work, just the comment.)

    • 

      God, yes. Sex scenes don’t have to be BDSM to be hot.

      Hey, authors and publishers. Not all of us like BDSM. Can we try for a little balance?

• 

  I am not a fan of angst. If it comes with sparkling dialog or the book makes me laugh I can take a lot more, but I don’t really want to be made to cry very often.

  Maybe it is because it is so very easy to make me cry. Even if I am rolling my eyes at the cliches, even if I don’t like the characters, even if I probably won’t finish the book, certain kinds of pain get me sobbing every time. I feel sure it is down to my personal issues, but there you go.

  • 

    I think some authors equate the level of angst with excellent writing, when it’s just the opposite.

    Anyone can shove their characters under a bus and have them beaten to a pulp later as they are being gang raped, but trying to write a scene where the characters are funny is much more difficult.

• 

  K.Z., who is the publisher who likes a lot of angst? This is good information for us readers.

  • 

    I’d rather not say, Charming. The editor who contacted me is a lovely person who really put a lot of time and care into her response — something that’s rare in this business, unless one is a money-making writer whom editors are eager to schmooze — and I’m sure she considered her message confidential. Out of respect for her, I’ll opt for discretion.

• 

  I have no problem with angst when it’s the consequence of the plot. When it’s a plot device – angst for the sake of angst – it makes me either roll my eyes and laugh where author didn’t intended or shudder in disgust. There is a trend of violence-induced angst where the characters are raped, beaten, tortured from from page to page. I avoid these books like a plague, even when they are generally liked. I hate books like that and exercise my reader’s right not to read.

  • 

    Hi LadyM

    There is a trend of violence-induced angst where the characters are raped, beaten, tortured from from page to page. I avoid these books like a plague, even when they are generally liked.

    I find these books distressing and upsetting and stop buying books by these authors once I find out that this is their signature. Maybe if enough readers do the same they will get the message.

• 

  As a reader, I like angst, but I think I like a specific kind of angst: I love juicy internal conflict between the characters. But I am totally squicked out by violence. So the “Lots of horrible stuff happens to these characters, woe!” doesn’t work for me that well (particularly if there’s no comic relief… I agree with those who talked about humor above). But a good, “I like you but how can I overcome all these things in the way of us being together?” internal conflict angst extravaganza? Sign me up!

  As a writer, I basically write the books I’d want to read and I think that’s probably reflected in my work pretty well, since my books have lately been getting the “angsty” label. I’m not bothered by it at all. 😀 Conflict between the heroes is definitely a good thing, and not just the Big Misunderstanding, but tangible issues and road blocks that they have to work through to get to their HEA—that’s the kind of stuff I love to see in a romance novel.

  • 

    Hello Kate

    I love juicy internal conflict between the characters. But I am totally squicked out by violence.

    Internal conflict is a part of romance and makes the story enjoyable. Violence for its own sake is the reverse. Bad things happen to good people all the time in RL but there’s a limit to what I can take in a story. Unbearable angst does not equal good writing, in fact most of the time it’s just the opposite since it doesn’t advance the plot. There are different levels of angst but when an author uses this in place of a plot that’s when they lose me as a reader

• 

  I have enjoyed reading this post very much. My thoughts on acceptable levels of angst are incredibly subjective, what I will take from one writer is not necessarily some kind of bench mark. It often depends on the strength of a writer’s particular literary world, the language they use, added humour or just the power of the characters created. Consequently what I will happily revel in from Amy Lane or Harper Fox is not what I’ll accept from others.
  😕

  • 

    I’m totally with you here, Raine. It is as others said above; some authors can do angst, some can’t. The cut& Run series comes to my mind here- how much those heroes suffered, and how I loved the way they dealt with their hurt and pain, past and present – with black humor, aggression, and NO moping around. So go ahead and give me angst anytime if it’s well done!

    • 

      Feliz
      I couldn’t agree more about the Cut and Run series. The writing is incredible and the amount of angst is contained and is there to advance the plots and is not overdone. The humour in the books certainly help to maintain a balance between the pain. Unfortunately very few authors can do that as well as Roux and Urban.

      • 

        Oh I want to join in the love for Cut and Run series. There are very few characters I care for as much as I care for Ty and Zane in gay romances. Roux and Urban created truly memorable couple in these series. I think that another reason why angst is tempered in those books is because Ty and Zane always have something *else* to occupy themselves with besides muling over the problems in their relationships. That is why I am always thinking when I read contemporary and the man is angsting, aren’t you a doctor, carpenter, firefighter, whoever? Aren’t you supposed to like your job? Why don’t you go and *do* your job for a change and I can be more entertained when you do that too.

  • 

    Hi Raine

    Even good writers go overboard with the level of angst and I hate being manipulated by anyone. Sometimes when I read a book by certain authors I can tell when the BIG SCENES are coming up and I just skip those pages because that’s not what I want to read.

    As I said in response to someone earlier, if I want to read horror I won’t look for it in a romance, and some of those angsty scenes are straight out of a Stephen King novel, but definitely not as well written.

• 

  I have read some books lately where I got the feeling that the author used angst like a cruel child would pick the legs of a spider, one at a time, while laughing…

  Really not a fan of the raping, torturing and ultimate suffering trends we’ve seen lately.

  • 

    Saga
    I couldn’t agree more.

• 

  I like angst, but it has to be realistic levels. Don’t give me country-music parody levels: My man done run off and took my truck. He ran over my dog on the way out and wrapped the truck around a telephone pole. And I’m outta beer. In the rain. On the day my mama died in prison.

  I have a friend who has a 76% kill rate in her books. It’s to the point where I read her the same way I read Lovecraft: what’s the countdown until THIS character dies/puts a gun to his head shouting “Ia! Ia! Cthulhu F’thagn!”? I don’t bother getting attached to her characters anymore.

  I define a happy ending as “both are still alive (for whatever value of life) and in the relationship.” And yes, they have to work for it.

  • 

    Angel

    Love your first paragraph which makes my point effectively.

    Working for their HEA doesn’t mean that the characters can barely walk by the time they achieve it. There’s something called “balance” and some writers probably don’t know the meaning of the word.

    I hope I never read any books by your friend who has a 76% kill rate. 😯

    • 

      Elizabeth is a horror writer. So far she’s had one gay character, a vampire sex worker. And she’s hesitated to write the fourth book in the series because he has a relationship and sex and she’s afraid of Getting It Wrong. (there are also publisher issues) She’s all about the Things that Go Chomp In The Night.

      Work means work. It can mean ending up in the hospital after a bad bashing. It can also mean overcoming a tendency to hide bad events from one’s partner and one’s self while trying to resolve them. Or it can mean committing genocide on two million people at your lover’s behest. It’s all work.

• 

  Okay, I just got called in to work, so I have to make this short, but I couldn’t not comment.

  I have recently reached the upper-limit of tolerance for angst. I thought it was specific to one particular author, but that’s not true. One author I have crossed off the list because, really, that’s all s/he can do is angst without humor? The other I am taking on a case-by-case basis. When s/he is good, s/he is brilliant. But the last one I read was angst for the sake of it, with very little to no reward for the characters or me as a reader. I don’t get on the roller coaster to be flung headlong into the brick wall. Bring me close, let me feel the concrete brushing my skin, but friggin’ redeem the situation, please. This author’s latest work I haven’t picked up yet, even though it’s the latest installment in a series I care about.

  I think Tam (I think it was Tam–don’t have time to look) said it best: humor me. Make me laugh and cry at the same time and I’m yours for life–but make it worth it.

  One of my all-time favorite books, Bareback, cut my heart out and stomped it into the dirt, but the rest of the ride was so good, with Jake and Tor finding their way back from that, that it was worth it to me. It isn’t one I can re-read often because it still breaks my heart, but I will sometimes drag it out.

  Okay, gotta go. Can’t wait to see the rest of the discussion when I get back home.

  • 

    Hi Buda

    I never thought the day would come when you would back off the angst wagon. 🙂 What am I going to do now?

    I don’t get on the roller coaster to be flung headlong into the brick wall. Bring me close, let me feel the concrete brushing my skin, but friggin’ redeem the situation, please.

    Seriously, I couldn’t agree more. It just seems that some books are like a runaway train and there’s no brake.

    You’ve only crossed off ONE author but I have taken a few more of them off my list of auto buys, and one in particular is on the top of my list because I can’t take the level of angst she dishes out in every book.

    Brokeback is still one of my favourite books because there was a plot and love story to go along with the angst.

    • 

      Wave, I think we may have briefly discussed the book that really smacked my head against the angst ceiling. In fact, I think you tried to pawn the review off on me! lol

      The author I’ve crossed off is hugely popular, much to my dismay. I’ve read three books from that person and they’ve all built upon an already high level of angst established in the debut effort (these are not a series, btw). Otherwise, the works seem to be weaker retreads of the first brilliant story. I’ve never claimed to be an expert or even more than semiconscious, but I just won’t subject myself to that mess again.

      The thing I love about Bareback is that every time I think of that scene, I get just as worked up as I did when I first read it. It’s been two years or so and I still want to tear Tor’s balls off, but I know I’ll end up forgiving him again by the end of the book. That is an example of angst that worked awesomely well.

      • 

        Looks like I’ll be reading Bareback after all. You guys got me curious to see “good angst” in action.

        • 

          Eva
          I should tell you that there’s cheating in Bareback, so if you’re turned off by cheating this book is probably not for you.

• 

  I like both angst and non-angst!

  Sometimes I’m in the mood for a book I know is going to hit me in the gut, make me suffer with the characters, and bring me to the end feeling wrung out but happy that things worked out for the heroes. It’s then that I turn to the authors, or to recommended books, that I know will give me that experience.

  Obviously I can’t read books which are very full of angst one after the other, or I’d end up feeling exhausted and over-saturated with emotion. That’s why I mix things up with humourous or light-hearted or even, dare I say it, fluffy romances. These satisfy too, but in a different way to the angst.

  Variety is the spice of life, and I wouldn’t want to do away with either my angsty romances or the non-angsty. There’s room for both in my reading tastes.

  • 

    When I am in the mood for angst, I go straight to Harper Fox. I swear, she’s a living emotional wringer.

    • 

      Harper is one of the few authors who writes exceedingly well and can deliver an angsty book without making me want to throw my Kindle against the wall. 🙂

  • 

    Jen

    I think varying the kind of book one reads is the appropriate way to go because if I read all angsty books I would want to slit my throat. Your tolerance for angst is greater than mine, but having said that I can’t read romantic comedies all the time.

    If some authors would provide a balance I think most readers would be happy, even those who love angst with a passion.

    I read a variety of books but I find that the level of angst in M/M romances is overboard, to the point now where I ask others for recs when I’m uncertain about a book or an author.

• 

  I think it really depends on your interpretation of angst. I love lots (and lots) of emotionalism in stories. I love MC who are emotionally wounded (not whiny – whiny is just boring), but I expect them to at least begin to heal by the end of the story. So if that is your definition of angst, bring it on.

  If you define angst as an unending series of horrible things happening to the MCs, then enough is enough. Frankly, there is already way too much pain in real life; I don’t need it in the books I read. What I need from fiction is hope.

  Every story needs conflict, but the line between just right and too much is different for every reader.

  • 

    Hi Kiracee

    It’s not the emotion because where would a romance be without emotion.

    If you define angst as an unending series of horrible things happening to the MCs, then enough is enough

    If I read one more book where the MC’s suffer one injury after another without being in the Secret Service I’m going to write the author. 🙁 The horrendous and unending series of beatings, accidents, homophobic incidents, rapes etc., that live within the pages of an M/M romance make me want to slit my wrists. This is in addition to all the whining and BMs.

    As I said in the post, every romance needs conflict or it would be dull and boring but probably some writers can’t figure out how to do that effectively so they use the old standby, angst.

• 

  Yeah, I’m pretty tired of angst and sex used to create tension/entertainment for these romance books. I like a writer that can tell a story. I’m working my way through Josh’s, Victor’s, Jordan’s and Sean’s backlist. My Son has talked me into starting “Game of Thrones” so I’ll be reading that for a while.

  Maybe there will be some other M/M stories out there to read when I finish?

  Great topic! Great discussion!

  I will take another look at Heidi’s new book- I just assumed it was angsty- sorry.

  • 

    Hey Reggie,

    I found Heidi’s new book pure pleasure, everything comes from the characters, no big external angst and they work problems they have out by….. shock….. talking……. 🙂

    • 

      Isn’t that breaking some kind of secret code of m/m? If Heidi’s not careful they’ll boot her out of the club 😛

      • 

        *snerk*

        I am paranoid about being too angsty. I believe I nearly drove Marie crazy asking her if it was too much angst or not. I normally really dislike angst, so I try not to write it, but I also figure that Murphy’s Law means at some point I’ll write it and not want to.

        I always WANT to write funny. It always ends up serious. Sigh.

  • 

    Reggie, you do know that Game of Thrones is not exactly angst free, right? Go in knowing no character is safe.

    • 

      Thanks Sara- I don’t need angst-free but he did say not to many die etc.. Oh well I told him I might not finish it…. but I’ld give it a try. I think I just need more variety in my genres too keep it fresh.

• 

  Okay all- I’ll be picking that one up!!

  😎

• 

  I think humor is my first love in books, so I can tolerate a lot of angst if that’s also present in a book.

  It’s probably very subjective for me & just depends on whether I find the way the characters behave believable. I seem to be able to tolerate a Harper Fox level of angst yet I could barely get through a book like Red Tainted Silence(having both characters assaulted and then having one voluntary going to get raped on a weekly basis just strained credulity–and that’s not even all that happens to them)

  Also, I would love to see a lot less rapes in m/m stories. It makes me feel the authors don’t really like men or something because they beat them up so badly in fiction.

  • 

    Now, see, what drove me crazy about RTS and eventually ruined it for me was the ocean of tears those characters cried. Seriously, grow a set. I’m not saying men shouldn’t or don’t cay, but those two were ridiculous. It would make a great drinking book: Take a shot every time someone starts bawling. By the end, I was actually kinda hoping the bad guy would win the day.

    • 

      Yep, ocean of tears is right. They were crying before anything even happened. Like I think one of them started crying because he fell in love after seeing the other one stage in a high school play (they hadn’t even had a conversation yet) & he couldn’t find him afterwards in the parking lot and in the school. Who does that?

      This is when angst doesn’t work for me–when the characters are so overwrought & melodramatic it starts to feel too manipulative.

    • 

      I couldn’t review RTS because I would have been beaten to a pulp by fans of this book. I had that book for a couple of years, attempted to read it straight through without a break of another book in between, and boy was I sorry. Eventually I asked Jenre to review it. WAY too much angst for me and all of the crying. Good lord! for 12 years or how much time they were together – I just couldn’t deal. 😆

      • 

        I know! It was just insanity run amok. I completely understand the your mileage may vary concept, but this one really makes me question if I read the same book the others did. But enough about that. I’m not going to trash it. It just really, really, really didn’t work for me. 🙂

• 

  I read for pleasure, and detailed descriptions of non-con and torture aren’t a pleasure to me. Also, there are some details of inhumanity I just don’t need to have in my brain.

  I find I can cope with a bit more angst if it is in the past as the story is being told to me – that is, I find the recovery from a period of angst a more enjoyable journey to read about than going through the angst itself.

  • 

    “I read for pleasure, and detailed descriptions of non-con and torture aren’t a pleasure to me. Also, there are some details of inhumanity I just don’t need to have in my brain.”

    Very well put, Allie2. I agree.

  • 

    Hi Allie2

    thanks for commenting.

    I read for pleasure, and detailed descriptions of non-con and torture aren’t a pleasure to me. Also, there are some details of inhumanity I just don’t need to have in my brain

    Very well put. When did M/M romance become the dumping ground for multiple re-tellings of man’s inhumanity to man? Why are the gay men in these books treated by some writers like so much fodder, until time for their hurried HEA?

    I want romances, not a literary highway strewn with the MCs’ bodies.

• 

  *waves hand* I have a question! Why do so many characters in M/M romance THROW UP when they’re upset???

  WHY??

  I’ve never in my life barfed due to an emotional blow. OK, I’ll be fair, I can see it happening once in a while, under extreme duress, after someone’s worked themselves into an emotional cat-with-ball-of yarn tangle of stress. But it seems like young men in romance novels puke at the drop of a hat. 😕

  • 

    Hm, good question. I, personally, throw up when I cry out loud for at least half an hour. Any less than that, I wouldn’t. But yeah, I think when a person cries for a certain amount of time they tend to reach a breaking point in the stress. And I think just the heaving motion of breathing in and out raggedly while sobbing kinda disturbs the stomach, y’know? Of course, I’m no doctor so I wouldn’t really know.

    Crying at the drop of a hat? I don’t think so, unless there’s been a long-term buildup that could lead to that.

  • 

    Oh god, I’m guilty of this. I don’t know WHY. My most recent beta comments were all, “Enough barfing.” Except in that one they were overdosing on opium, so they had to…

    I don’t know why vomit is so enticing, but it is. I think because it just seems so… I don’t know. I really have no excuse. All I know is that every time I try now I hear Kate go NO BARFING and I stop. You will be relieved, I’m sure, to know this.

    • 

      ROFL :hysterics:

  • 

    Actually, I know some people who really do throw up when they are upset. That said, they don’t throw up for the little stuff so it doesn’t happen often.

• 

  Oh the angst! I love a bitter tang of angst to make the romance sweeter. The problem is people haven’t been paying attention to the appropriate amounts lately. I’ve read several books where it seems like the author thought “What are all the bad things that can happen to a couple?” and then, instead of selecting a choice issue (or two) and fleshing it out well, it’s throw in everything that they came up with.

  I just read the most recent in a series and I could literally predict every bad thing that was going to happen and I felt like I should’ve made a checklist.

  That being said, there have been recent books with over the top angst that I loved to pieces and can’t wait to reread. (Amy Lane’s The Locker Room)

  It seems to me that there are newer authors that struggle with propelling a story forward without constant trouble for the MC’s.

• 

  To be quite honest, I deliberately went AWAY from heavy angst for Sand & Water. It’s not angst-free by any means, but most of that comes from events in the past that have been tempered by time. I didn’t have an interest in writing those events; I was interested in how they affected the MCs years later.

  I like angst, but I don’t like it when it gets piled on and on and on, just like I get overwhelmed by books that go flat-out without ever giving me a chance to catch my breath. It seems like a lot of stories jump in with both feet and it’s a high-speed obstacle course from start to finish. Usually it’s because it works for the story, but sometimes it just ends up feeling rushed. Sometimes I prefer to read something more relaxed and low pressure.

  Of course, writing a slower-paced story has challenges of its own, not least of which being that many readers are hooked on the adrenaline rush. 🙂

  • 

    Shae- I think you have something here with
    “many readers are hooked on the adrenaline rush”

    This seems to be the perseption of the readers otherwise why all the sex and violence/catastrophes in m/m ?

• 

  Angst is emotion-porn. Now a bit of porn is not bad, don’t get me wrong, but when the emo-porn supplants plot, character development, or even plain old logic, I lose patience. It’s not satisfying to me. Especially when severe physical abuse is taking place, I find the HEA tacked-on, unrealistic.

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    Lou

    …when the emo-porn supplants plot, character development, or even plain old logic, I lose patience.

    I agree 100% with what you said. Now I have a new phrase – “emo porn.” 😮

    I have reached my limit with being manipulated and I have stopped reading books by some authors who do this.

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    Lou, I love your point about finding HEA tacked on when there is a severe physical abuse taking place. I want my romances to be believable, sorry but I do, I do not need 100% realism, but I need some believability, recognisable settings and characters’ behavior that makes sense. And when character is lets say gang raped and severely traumatised and angsting about it for the 90% of the book, but time wise it takes maybe a week and at the end of such week he is ready to get it on with another guy, this is when I have “lets throw it against the room” wish. Please do not insult my intelligence, please, while everybody recovers from severe abuse differently, it will take more than mere days before the character would want to have sex. Sigh. This is when I feel like Wave that angst becomes the plot and interferes with logic and common sense. If the book is super angsty but it does not affect plot and characterization (which is all subjective of course but you know what I mean), I will never knock the book down. Personal preferences are different, but when it feels like writer’s only goal is to make characters suffer even if they have to behave either like fools or to recover like magic from PTSD and other stuff, I definitely feel that I have a very legit gripe with such book.
    I also think that in that and similar instances it would make much more sense to disperse with HEA, but of course as Wave said, lets not piss of the readers and then we get HEA that makes very little sense to me. And I will be the first one to say that I want HEA in my story, but I want the believable one.

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  So very late to the discussion, but I absolutely loved reading through it. My thoughts are similar to Tam, Buda and kiracee.

  As a reader, I can only take so much angst before I start wondering if there is an end in sight or if I should just stop reading. I understand characters do go through ordeals in life (much like real people), though like real people, you find a way to get past it. Because there’s a limited amount of time and space in a novel, I’d prefer the character to be strong enough to move on. I have very little tolerance for the pity party or the woe is me game.

  For example, recently I finished Kaje Harper’s Breaking Cover, and I’m in heaven. It’s the perfect blend of angst and happiness. Realistic characters don’t necessarily need to be tortured every page…Angst for m/m characters are abundant as it is by virtue of being. That’s why overkill angstfest isn’t my cuppa. Find a balance, treat your characters like…well, real people, and I think I’ll enjoy the book much more than a book that’s angsting for the sake of angst.

  And yes – there are definitely authors who start off by writing marketable material on purpose…commercialized romance books are commercialized for a reason – the m/m genre is no different.

  Great topic, Wave!

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    Hi S

    Thanks for commenting and making so much sense in terms of giving a balanced perspective.

    ….. recently I finished Kaje Harper’s Breaking Cover, and I’m in heaven. It’s the perfect blend of angst and happiness. Realistic characters don’t necessarily need to be tortured every page…

    Find a balance, treat your characters like…well, real people, and I think I’ll enjoy the book much more than a book that’s angsting for the sake of angst.

    The problem with most M/M authors who write these types of books is that they don’t know how to find a balance, and overkill is definitely not good writing…. anyone who took the most basic writing course knows that you don’t have your characters continually peaking or in the depths of despair. Our writers should concentrate on the relationships between the protagonists rather than manufacture angst inducing incident after incident in their books.

    Because there’s a limited amount of time and space in a novel, I’d prefer the character to be strong enough to move on. I have very little tolerance for the pity party or the woe is me game.

    I couldn’t agree more. These books are supposed to be romances but when I read a lot of them they seem more like high drama or soap operas.

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  My initial, evil response is to ask you to list some of the stories you disliked, because I haven’t read a good torture novel for a while now.

  My situation is similar to Erastes’s: I come from the fan fiction community, where angst and hurt/comfort are common tropes. That’s how I got into reading m/m – not through seeking out romance stories, but through seeking out angsty stories. Because that’s what I read when I’m reading non-m/m novels: fantasy stories about assassins and rebels, historical fiction about wars, science fiction about alien invasions.

  I do like a good love story. I just don’t want give up tense drama for the sake of it. In fact, my initial difficulty with the m/m romance genre was that I kept running across non-angsty romance, which just wasn’t to my taste.

  However, it sounds as though what you’re talking about is gratuitous angst, especially gratuitous violence. And, paradoxical though it may seem, gratuitous violence irritates the heck out of me. A couple of people above mentioned George R. R. Martin’s “A Game of Thrones.” I’m currently debating whether to read Mr. Martin’s latest novel. On the one hand, his novels are always page-turners. On the other hand, I just know that he’s going to take some sympathetic character and kill them in the bloodiest manner possible. He’s done that so often now that I’m beginning to classify his series as “violence porn.” The horrible deaths don’t seem to serve enough purpose – in terms of characterization, plot, or theme – to justify the loving detail in which he describes the terrible events.

  Similarly, I enjoy reading erotica, but I hate reading stories with gratuitous sex. So I’m right with you in asking that writers consider whether angst is actually necessary to their plotline.

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    Hi Dusk
    I didn’t grow up on fan fiction so all of the overwhelming angst is not something to which I’m accustomed.

    I could name a few authors but that wouldn’t be fair – they know who they are and many of the readers do as well. They will defend their right to beat up their heroes to a pulp because they say that’s what the characters tell them to write. Bullshit! They get off in wallowing in this kind of book. There are many authors who know when to rein it in, but there are three times more who love this too much to give it up.

    There is a book mentioned by a few readers that lots of them love but I coudn’t finish, (maybe they had a fan fiction background) :)and I was afraid to review it because I knew I would get beaten up since this wasn’t for me – heartrending sobs throughout the book for 12 years. I don’t know many guys who could do this for a year much less 12.

    I won’t be reading A Game of Thrones because I have read some of reviews so I know it’s not for me.

    Since M/M romances are supposed to be primarily love stories I expect the books to contain internal and external conflict. I don’t mind some violence, but what I’ve been reading lately should probably be categorized differently, not as romances.

    Other genres such as historical books based on battles, and science fiction where colonies are capured would of course be extremely violent and contain decapitated heads and mangled bodies, but I know that going in. However contemporary romances are not supposed to be opportunities for the author to kick the crap out of the heroes before they get a HEA. Or maybe my expectations are wrong.

    I understand that because of your background in fan fiction your expectations of M/M romances are different, but isn’t a romance supposed to be, at its core, a love story? Is it supposed to be the torture chamber to which we’re being subjected? I don’t mind reading violent books and some of my favourites are violent but those authors don’t pile it on and on until there’s no real story, only gratuitous violence. If I read a book by Stephen King I know what to expect, but in M/M romance am I wrong to expect the book to be a romance?

    Re erotica, M/M romance is for the most part erotic, but it’s not supposed to be erotica which, according to my understanding is one sex scene after another. However that’s for another post. 😆

    Everyone’s taste is different but I thought that the definition of M/M romances is that they would be romances and that these “love stories” would play out in the course of a book, with conflicts ultimately resolved and there’s a HEA. Some M/M authors are cheating by writing angst filled, over the top violent books, or books wtih overwhelming angst, and on the last 5 or 10 pages they tack on a manufactured HEA so their books can be designated with the coveted “romance” label.

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