Last week Josh Lanyon wrote an excellent post on Paper Boats – Knowing When to Abandon Your WIP and although the topic was somewhat unrelated to what I’m writing about today, there is a connection as it made me think about my own recent struggles trying to find M/M books that hold my interest for more than a few chapters. I love M/M but I seem to be losing my enthusiasm for the books and I have been having a tough time lately to finish them, even those by my favourite authors. Forget most of the newer authors – I can’t seem to drum up the interest and it would take a really extraordinary blurb to get me to read their books.
Initially I thought the problem was me because it usually is 🙂 after all I read a lot of these books and I thought I just needed a longer rather than a short break from them, but lots of other readers seem to be suffering from the same ailment. A few guest reviewers decided not to read any M/M books for a while hoping that would help, but six months later two of them are still not ready to come back because the books they read while they were away did not light any fires. Another reviewer is back but I don’t know how long he’ll stay. Yesterday three other guest reviewers admitted to being bored with what they have been reading lately and one will be taking a break in a couple of months. The words I hear frequently are “boring” “uninspiring” and “sameness” and I can relate to what other readers are saying. I’m also having problems getting requests from the reviewers for new releases to review. Right now I have a list of blurbs that cover almost 60 pages for books that haven’t been requested. Some of them are what I call orphans – no one has requested them in 3 – 4 months so I cull them, but more blurbs are added the following week, and with new authors and publishers joining the M/M ranks every day the list will get a lot longer.
I have been reading M/M in its present form for 8 years and before that I read a lot of gay fiction for decades. M/M has evolved with new publishers and writers and these books now cover most genres, not just contemporary romance. M/M now includes science fiction, BDSM, post apocalyptic, paranormal, horror, murder/mystery, fantasy, historical, paganism, witchcraft, action/adventure etc. (I’m sure I have forgotten a couple of genres) and one would think that with such a wide range of books from which to choose the interest level would be at an all-time high, so why are some readers having problems with the offerings?
Sales are through the roof but is the satisfaction with the content the same as in the past when M/M was fresh and new and a welcome alternative to het? Is the reason we no longer love many of these books because they lack innovative plots or even a plot in some cases? A large proportion of our writers seem to have become complacent and are now resting on their laurels. Are readers wrong to expect that M/M books would continue to be exciting rather than rehash old ideas? We’re buying these books in unprecedented numbers apparently but are we reading them? M/M used to be this fresh, bright light in the industry so much so that many writers are flocking from print publishing to try out the new kid on the block. However, my computer hard drive and Kindle are full of DNF books because the quality just isn’t there. When I discuss books with other readers and some of the guest reviewers on the site many of us seem to be suffering from apathy. I keep hoping that this is a temporary aberration that will be resolved soon but it’s been months and my mojo for these books seems to have walked out the door. I don’t think increasing the number of sex scenes can cover up for the fact that there’s really no plot in a lot of the books, and while many readers love M/M stories because they are erotic, there’s a huge difference between erotic stories and erotica which is PWP.
Perhaps there is a much bigger problem and we’ve become dissatisfied with the genre because our standards and expectations have become much higher than in the past and we’re no longer prepared to accept less than quality plots and believable characterizations. Personally I have become more critical because I expect M/M to be professionally edited now that the genre has been around for close to a decade, but the learning curve still seems to be as steep as when these books were first published. There are many authors who buck this trend and write excellent stories and they are among my favourites, but some of the books I have been reading recently I can hardly get through the first couple of chapters before setting them aside.
So, are we readers becoming too critical by expecting M/M books to meet certain industry standards of professionalism? Should we not expect the stories to have fresh twists even if the authors use old tropes? I can’t tell you how many times I open a book and it seems as if I just read that story except that the cover, name and author are different.
Are you still enjoying M/M stories as much as you used to when you first started reading these books?
I’m not tired of it yet, but then again I’ve only been reading m/m for about a year. I tend to stick to authors I know I like, though, and I pay close attention to reviews here and on Goodreads. My fellow readers rarely steer me wrong.
Hi Natalie
I have been taking more frequent breaks from M/M because I was trying to avoid the situation in which I currently find myself. Pacing myself hasn’t worked but I keep hoping. Sticking to authors you like is an excellent strategy as well as reading reviews. 🙂
I know that I’ve bought less books as not even the blurbs are grabbing my attention. Also a lot of the recent books I’ve read have left me underwhelmed to the point that I no longer buy some authors 🙁 On the positive side I have discovered some (few) awesome reads and those make it so worthwhile. 😀
Though right now I’m actually reading Jane Eyre, so maybe that’s my answer. 😕
The best part about this genre is that there are some dynamite writers and maybe I expect the rest to be more like them. The blurbs all seem to be similar – maybe they are using the same writer. lol
Reading outside the genre is what saved me from totally abandoning M/M and Jane Eyre is an excellent side trip. 😀
First, thank you for this insightful and though provoking post–it is timely I think.
I may be in a minority because I have been reading m/m fiction for only about 8 months–having said that I am a fast reader and have read over 350 books. Everything from Josh Lanyon and Jordon Castillo Price (both of whom I honestly really enjoy) to others who I will never read again. Before I say the next thing, please know I love a hot sex scene as much as the next person but personally I think sex is overdone in most m/m novels. I’m sure there are folks out there doing it like bunnies but I’ve yet to meet them–I could be living a sheltered life=:)
I think you hit the nail on the head when using the “sameness” idea–there is a definite overworked theme in m/m fiction (much like het romance, I think)–sometimes it is written well with a solid plot but most times it is simply a tired reworking of an old theme–one that has increasingly left me cold over these past several months.
The other “VERY” valid concern you raise is the lack of editing. I’ve posted on this site before so I should say that I am a playwright–words are my livelihood and typos are deadly–especially for the actors. Frankly (and not to sound snobbish) I am appalled by the lack of editing and cohesiveness of story line in many m/m works. It raises a question for me: If authors spend that much time investing themselves and their imagination, guts and glory in a novel don’t they want it to be the best read it can be?? Surely they want it to be a tight and clean manuscript–editing should be crucial, right? Yet not so much if you’ve read a wide swath of writers in this genre. I’ve read a lot of books over my 51 years of life and I can honestly say that I’ve never seen such abysmal attention to quality control as in the world of m/m fiction. Surely it should be a matter of pride. I’m not talking about the occasional plot error or typo but for what can often seem to be the blatant disregard for plot structure, character development, and clean sentence mechanics. I often want to yell, Authors, this is your work of art–your masterpiece–shouldn’t you care that it is less than shiny–less than as near as perfect as it can be? I admit I have written crap–but I don’t then publish it and expect the drama world to embrace it, produce it and pay for the honor of watching it performed–why should m/m authors be any different?
Okay–excuse the rant–but I really do love this genre–much like I think you do Wave or you wouldn’t be here doing the great work you do with this site. As a reader I would love to see m/m fiction clean it’s act up–because seriously, while there will always be readers for this genre, the glory days of people flocking to read will diminish–it happens–just look at history to be sure. People will eventually wake up and realize there is something better out there and that IMO will be a sad day for both writers and the industry as a whole.
I hope I did not offend anyone with this post–rather take heart–something that causes such passionate responses in me means that it is important–and after all as authors I hope that’s what you want–folks passionate for your work.
Hi Sammy
Thank you for your very thoughtful comments and there’s very little I can add because you made your points with a great deal of eloquence.
Like you, I love the genre. I spend a lot of time promoting the authors and the books but sometimes I feel like a fraud because I’m finding that a lot of the books don’t meet my own expectations.
Jordan and Josh are two of my favourite writers and I tend to re-read their books when I hit a major snag like now. I don’t expect that all authors will meet the very high bar they have set but I wish they would at least make the effort.
I’m with you here. I think that many of our authors use sex in these books to cover up for a lack of plot and poor characterization. I love a bit of sex in my erotic books as much as the next person, but when it overwhelms the book I wonder if the author forgot that she is supposed to be writing a story not a sex manual. Sure there are different types of books in the genre – serious plots vs sex filled romps and I wish most of them didn’t turn into the latter.
Many of the stories that I’ve read over the past year seem to be the same and I did wonder whether it was me because I read so many books for review. You have only been reading the genre for a much shorter period of time yet you are encountering similar problems. My concern is that readers will abandon M/M if it doesn’t clean up its act, and soon.
As far the editing is concerned, I’m appalled that some of these books have actually been published.
Perhaps the authors don’t see these poorly written/edited books as a reflection on themselves. Many of them depend on the publishers and editors but they really need to become more invested in quality control because it’s their name above the title.
I couldn’t agree with you more, Sammy, about the editing. There are a couple of publishers that I just won’t buy from any more, because I’ve found their books are edited so poorly. It seems to me they’ve jumped on the m/m bandwagon, and are churning out everything without pausing to clean up grammar/continuity/plotting errors.
Maybe it’s because I’ve become fairly choosey that I haven’t been burned out yet. I do feel sorry for those reviewers that have to read everything that comes across their desk. I probably would’ve given up too, Wave.
I’m still buying, still reading, but. BUT. My standards over even the last year has dramatically shifted. I expect the author to be minimally capable of stringing a coherent thought together and that thought better encompass more than “mine.” I want fresh ideas — innovation, NOT novelty. I don’t give a rat’s hairy ass about were-penguins or any other ridiculous GD thing shoved into the same tired plots like a Bandaid over a stab wound. And if I get sucked into one more info-dump, I am going to shriek until glass shatters in China.
I think the market is seeing a lot of newbies like me, but some of us newbies are caving to that inner pressure to produce by churning out stories that are mediocre (at best) instead of developing a story & growing it.
That’s what I’m fed up with — mediocrity. Too many folks are focusing on creating the Fastest Book Possible instead of investing the time and work in producing the Best Book Possible. Quality suffers. Thus, the readerly malaise.
JMO
That’s what I’m fed up with — mediocrity. Too many folks are focusing on creating the Fastest Book Possible instead of investing the time and work in producing the Best Book Possible. Quality suffers. Thus, the readerly malaise.
Well put, Kari.
Hi Kari
If a newbie author starts out by writing mediocre stories I don’t think that she/he will have a long career. Word of mouth has destroyed more writing careers than written reviews. To all the new authors out there, take the time to invest in quality plots and believable characterizations and readers will find your books, even if you only write one book a year.
well said, sammy! :0) my other irritation with m/m books is that the e-format (i basically only read them in e) makes it harder to get rid of books i don’t like! unlike paper books that i leave in airport lobbies, give to friends & students or donate to the laundromat – i feel like i am “stuck” with the undesirable books littering my desktop. an emotion that totally increases my irritation with a poorly edited, thinly plotted, polluted with purple prosey disaster! they haunt me and the unrecyclable waste of money pisses me off! -kkm
kkm
Perhaps you could do what many of us do – either delete them if you’re not going to read them again or put them in a separate folder that you won’t see everyday. I now have all of my DNF books in a separate folder so that they won’t remind me of the money I spent on them. :).
Good post Wave. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I have several e-books by what had been my favorite authors – all highly rates books BTW – which are languishing on my reader for over 6 months. I’ve picked them up over and over again and lose interest in a short time. Even the latest installments of 2 of my favorite series are started, but I had to stop when they couldn’t hold my interest.
I initially blamed it on what was going on in my RL, but now that things have calmed down, I’m still struggling to find the genre as engaging as I once did.
For me, I think the problem is simply that I have read too many m/m books. It’s inevitable that after so much exposure that it will all start to seem the same. I do also read mainstream literature, which helps, but I’m not sure I’ll ever regain that illusive thrill again.
I have managed to re-read some of my old favorites with mixed results. Some held up well, but I find myself losing patience when I encounter what is now an overused trope and the sex scenes all seem to be lacking originality.
I would have to attribute this to now reading them through the perspective of having read thousands of oh so similar scenes. As soon as I see that old favorite “one finger, two finger” I have to start skimming over the rest.
See, I am rereading my old favorites and they hold out very well comparing to some of the stuff I had been reading lately and I totally agree that reading outside of the genre helps with over saturation, for me anyway.
Hi Tj
I’m aware of your problems with the genre since we have talked about them in the past and I’m in a similar situation except most of my old favourites are holding up. the authors that I love (with a few exceptions) 😮 are still delivering but when I try many of the new writers I seem to hit a road block
Yeh that “one finger, two, and then three finger salute” is getting old but they can’t seem to realize it. 😕
Reading mainstream literature does help but when I come back I still face the old issues. Hopefully things will get better and authors won’t try to write 50 books a year.
What an excellent post Wave. Actually even several months ago I would have at least partially disagreed with you. I always tend to be choosy in what I read and stick to my favorite authors and try new authors in moderation, but couple months ago I decided I needed to increase the books by new authors at least for the review purposes and there were not a lot of books by my favorites coming out. Today I am bored and annoyed and rethinking my desire to review more new (at least for me) authors. In a row I have read several books where in the fantasy magic does not have to have rules and consistency and it is totally okay where characters can change history once but not the second time, because it does not suit the plot anymore, Historical where I had to try hard to figure out the country and the century when action happens. How about putting out a chracters who talks in riddles and leaving me hanging without explaining why? How about putting out the book where one character is dead and another joins him by suicide, because he heard about reincarnation concept? Have I mentioned that there is no reason for such character to even KNOW what reincarnation means based on when and where in history action takes place?
Oh and that book we were both hoping yesterday will be better for me? Sadly, it really was not. It has rape as a means of healing prior bad sexual experience. No, I am not kidding.
So I guess my thoughts are that some publishers still did not catch up with the idea that readers are becoming more choosy. Am I too demanding when I think that such stuff should be fixed before the book is published? Editors? Where are they?
Are publishers just content to publish anything these days? Sigh. Sorry for the rant.
Sirius
I hate it when you agree with me. 😮 However we have discussed this issue recently and in the past and I know that you are not feeling the love. I applaud you for trying new authors – I too try to review at least two books by new (to me) authors every month but many of them don’t pan out. However I keep trying because every writer was new at some point.
I’m sorry about the rape scene in the book you requested but you can refuse to review it since it wasn’t in the blurb. I’ve told publishers on many occasions that readers don’t like to be surprised by extreme violence that is not indicated either in the blurb or on their website.
I think if we continue to buy shoddily written and edited books, writers and publishers will continue with business as usual, but if the sales decline they will definitely try to improve. If there’s no incentive for them to change why would they bother?
I know, lets agree on other more cheerful topics :). Oh do not worry, I will review it, it was not a violent rape, just non consensual one. (insert necessary sarcasm here) You know, of the I do not want to have sex with you, but since you are threatening to do something to my boyfriend, I have no choice but to do it. I found the whole set up to be simply infuriating, but I was not upset or anything. Hey, may be my first one star review since I started reviewing, something to celebrate at least, eh? 🙁
But I definitely agree about voting with our money.
I totally agree with the above commenter as well as the one before it.
I’m a new writer and reader. For about a year I’ve been creating my own m/m stories while only reading for about 8-9 months.
I’ve started reading at a faster pace and since I’m a new author, I like to look at the “greats” as well as the newbies like myself. I try to give everyone a fair shot as I would hope they would for me.
I believe the editing is a big issue. I’ve seen a lot of books where there’s a variety of misspells, POV switches, etc and it wasn’t caught.
Some where the m/m relationship wasn’t even explained completely. :/
Scary that editors have let these slide and I wish they would start paying better attention to these things.
My first book wasn’t well edited and my pub re-released a second version which was better but it made me realize how important a beta, a proofreader and editor are.
Now I use a beta, unlike with the first, and I’ll let someone else read it even after my beta to see if there’s anything they can catch before I send final to my editor.
I believe if more authors stick to putting out quality books instead of the keeping up with the Joneses syndrome then quantity of good books would improve.
I no longer worry about the amount of books I put out. I want to release the best written, tightest story I can so it will be enjoyable for readers. I hope others do the same.
Hi Sharita
These are some of the problems about M/M that I’m talking about in the post and I’m pleased that you, an author, recognize that my complaints have some validity.
Are you sure you haven’t been reading over my shoulder? 😆 Thanks Sharita. I look forward to reading your next book. 😎
Interesting post Wave… I suspect part of what you’re describing happens from overexposure to any genre. I’ve gone through phases of reading lots of horror, sci-fi, fantasy, lit fic, etc, and there always seems to come a point where I’ve had enough. The really quality books will still appeal, but much of what I’ve been reading seems to lack that elusive quality and can’t hold my interest.
I suspect with m/m being such a small and recent genre compared to others, that point might be reached much sooner for many readers.
As far as I’m concerned, many writers are rushing to join in when their manuscripts aren’t quite ready, and many publishers are happy to help them get published, but without giving the necessary editorial support. There are very few publishers I trust to put out well edited (content and copy) books, so much of the time I’m highly sceptical of buying something until I’ve had it recommended by friends who know my tastes.
To anyone getting sick of m/m, I’d suggest taking a little break and reading in other genres too. All genres occasionally suffer their own problems of recurring tropes and lacklustre editing, but certain epublishers seem to have lowered the standards even further, which is a real shame.
I’ve only been reading this genre for a couple of years, so I still have many classics to hunt down and read. Not sure what I’ll do when I run out of those, but so long as there’s at least one book a week I’m interested in, I’ll keep reading 🙂
Yes, definitely agree about writers rushing in when their manuscripts are not quite ready. I mean I do understand wanting to get reader interested in their work, but please put out quality work. Please. I bought your Barging in (preordered) the moment I heard about it and was not dissapointed in the slightest. I bought it because I enjoyed couple of your short stories very much, but if writer puts out crappy short stories/novellas I am highly unlikely to pick it up again. I know I am saying the obvious, but maybe it is not obvious for everybody?
So, yeah, what I am feeling is not apathy, more like annoyance at shortcuts that both some authors and editors seem to take. I think.
Thanks Sirius – that’s lovely to know you enjoyed Barging In 😀
I know exactly what you mean about shorts. I’ve often used them as a way of checking out whether a writer has a voice that grabs me, and much of the time I’m sorely disappointed. Just because it’s a short story, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t receive the same attention to detail and editing that a longer work would (hopefully) receive.
There is also a trend now for authors to self publish their old short stories from anthologies. I’m not convinced this is always a good idea. I have a short I wrote almost two years ago and the rights have reverted, but I’m really wary of publishing it even as a freebie. It’s not bad, IMO, but I know I’m a better writer now than I was then. Tricky decision to make, but I think many authors seem to think the only way to be noticed and to make money is to rush out as many titles as they can in a short space of time. I’m not convinced that’s the way to build a sustainable writing career.
Hello Jo
when I first started reading the genre I tried to get my hands on every book I could but this was unsustainable of course, and I started choosing more carefully.
The problem with M/M is that it’s now been around for almost a decade in its present form and we can’t continue to use the old tried and true excuse that it’s young and still growing. Sure it’s growing and expanding at an incredible rate but publishers need to ensure that the necessary systems are in place to support their authors, starting with qualified editors who are paid well, or the whole thing will fall apart.
Wave, I fear you’re suffering from “familiarity breeds contempt” syndrome. Eight years is a long time to read as much of the same stuff as you do. There are a ton of really good books out there, as the reviews on this site prove. Unfortunately, a lot of those books don’t have blurbs that really match the content, or have blurbs that just aren’t inspiring. I recently picked up a book that I thought would have me going through the Kleenex like mad, but it really didn’t. I enjoyed it enough, but it wasn’t as moving as I’d hoped. That, I think, breeds discontent.
I stand with Kari and Sammy here, too. I’m always wary of an author who puts out a slew of books in a short period of time. Were these previously-completed works just waiting for some publisher to snap them up, or are they rush jobs finished once that first contract was signed? I’ve ranted about the editing far too much to do it again now, but it is still a major concern.
I’ve had my break, so I’m starting to enjoy reading again. Hopefully, you just need a bit of a break. I’ll send Yashe up there and you walk her back home. That ought to take a month or three. 😉
Oh lord, please don’t number me among the too-many-books-in-a-rush group! I write 2-3 books in tandem, swapping out manuscripts after 3wks because my attention span is simply deplorable. It’s weird, but that’s just how I work. I end with 2-3 books finishing at (roughly) the same time. Long time between releases & then I have a cluster of them. *le sigh*
Kari, I didn’t mean to lump you in with that group. I was simply agreeing with your perceptions about the “quick! publish something else!” mindset. LA Witt seems to have releases in clusters, as well. I think she probably writes like you, with multiples going at once. Don’t know how you do it. I can’t even read two at a time!
Lord, remind me not to try to post before my morning Dew. Apparently I’m not as eloquent as the sleepwebs would have me believe. 😉
LA Witt is also a rare, rare bird: a genuinely talented and prolific author who is able to be INSANELY prolific without sacrificing talent. I have never in my life seen someone write so quickly and stay so consistently excellent. I’m in AWE of her.
Oh no, Buda, I didn’t think you’d lump me in with the sprint-to-print’ers…It just suddenly occurred to me that with my releases going in clusters, people who didn’t know me & my quirks (who are legion) might be thinking WTH? LOL. No worries. 😉
Buda
I’m responding to your comment out of order because I want to correct the impression that I read only M/M. I have not read M/M solely for 8 years but I have been reading these books in between other types of fiction over the years. It would drive me crazy if my reading were not diversified. Like everything else, a steady diet of anything would make me hate it.
I read M/M books because I love the genre but many of the books no longer meet my expectations for the reasons stated in the post. I have taken several breaks over the years and sometimes that’s all I needed, but lately it’s getting harder to kick start my interest.
So yes, I do read a lot of M/M books but definitely not at the level I used to years ago.
You can still send Yashe to spend some time with me – maybe I need a dog friend. 🙂
Wave, I didn’t mean to imply that you solely read M/M. I just meant that steak, if eaten every third or fifth or eighth meal for 8 years, would lose its appeal, too. Or tofu, if you’re not a steak girl. 😉
Well other readers seem to have a similar problem to mine regardless whether they are new to the genre or have been reading it a long time.
I have been reading murder mysteries and fantasy books far longer than M/M and I never get tired of them because most of the books are properly edited and the stories are well constructed. These qualities are not exactly hallmarks of M/M.
I have only been reading M/M fiction for maybe 5yrs now (give or take a year) I have yet to get bored by them.. Maybe because I am truly picky about what it is that I read… I am easy to please and I have sense for whats fluff (light hearted read nothing but sex and fun) and something with substance. I have specific writers I follow (sadly sometimes i wonder if its stalkerish of me) that i can count on for giving me what i want every time. I rarely go hunting from the 40 or so writers i have on my list and none of them have disappointed me so i refuse to mess with a good thing.. I walked away from more straight romance for all the reasons your talking about (i started with straight trashy novels and porn novels when i was 10 and 13yrs old.. i knew were my grandfather kept his stash of porn.. i never said i was innocent lol) I hope that i never get bored.. I hope that my WIP isn’t going to bore others when it’s published. Over all i think its my truly picky nature that keeps me from getting bored.
😯
Silver
Silver Pixie
You’re lucky to have 40 or so authors on your list who haven’t disappointed you so far. Many of us are not so lucky and I had an unfortunate experience sometime ago of reviewing a book by one of my faves that I thought was way below her capabilities.
I left het romance because of the many TSTL heroines and the awful plots. I’m hoping that M/M writers an the genre doesn’t fall into that trap.
Wow. Great column. I couldn’t agree more. I haven’t been reading and reviewing anywhere near as long as you, but I am fed up to here with the bad editing. Just because a book CAN be published doesn’t mean it should. There’s a lot of talent in the m/m author community, but it so often gets obscured by a published book that looks like a draft rather than a finished product.
The sameness, the disconnection from anything approaching reality in terms of character behavior and context, and the Tab A in Slot B sex scenes are really frustrating to me. I’m still reading, but my DNF stack is getting taller by the week. Luckily I still have plenty of tried-and-true authors’ backlists in my TBR, but I am very very wary of newer authors. I feel bad about that, because I want the genre to succeed and replenishing itself with new talent is a big part of that. But I read for fun, and the fun is diminishing.
re draft rather than a finished product…You don’t know how right you are. My latest one, I did the bulk of the writing last fall and it was…okay. VERY stupidly put up the first chapter on my site because readers were already asking for new stuff (hopefully I’m still in the Ignorable Newbie Mistake window) & several publishers approached me wanting it. I could’ve sold it then — but the story wasn’t there yet. I knew it could be better. So I waited and grew the story.
But..It’s hard to learn that discipline & self-control, especially when you’re first starting out. I think some of the books that resemble drafts rather than finished products are a reflection of just how difficult waiting for a story to mature can be.
Hello Sunita
This is exactly why I wrote the piece. I have been sitting on my hands for a long time because I didn’t want to piss off anyone yet again. Eventually I couldn’t take it anymore.
I don’t think we should discount newer authors – their problem is that they do not get the necessary support and they don’t have the experience to know when there’s a problem. We had a series for a year on the site with great writing advice and I wish that more newbie authors will take the time to check out the posts.
Hopefully this post and the comments will make the publishers and authors realize that there are problems and hopefully they will fix them.
How I stay sane while reading m/m romance books. I read for pleasure not for work. I choose my books well. I don’t read works from authors whose stated goal is to write 100 books in a year. I read m/m fantasy, mystery, historical, contemporary and so on. I don’t put limits on books, like if it has one minor straight scene I won’t read it. I also read whatever interest me outside the genre at ANY TIME I choose.
If I’m in the mood to read an autobiography, a non fiction advice book, a thriller mystery, horror book, I do it. I’ll read ‘gay literature’ once in a while. I’ll read a bunch of young adult books. In other words, M/M romance books and I aren’t exclusive. But If I’m dissatisfied with a book I don’t blame the entire genre.
Yes tropes are repeated over & over. That’s true anytime you exclusively read something. Agatha Christie books had the same patterns every time. Do you really think James Patterson is doing anything that different in all those hundreds of books he churns out?
I quite understand you’re bored with the books. I think that you’ve stated this through several columns since I’ve been a member. Of course your reviewers are bored as well. Being a critic is a job & they’re no longer just reading solely for their pleasure. I’m sure Roger Ebert gets bored too. But that’s his profession and he lives with it. Perhaps for the critics on this site, this is their volunteer work, their extracurricular activity. They have a higher expectation of fun for what is really a job.
Of course there are valid criticisms out there about editing. But that’s happening across the board in all different types of books especially with the rise of ebooks. If it’s something that’s bothersome, I won’t read from that author or that publisher. If someone is truly putting out garbage eventually they’ll go away.
The copycat writing is also not limited to m/m romance. How many vampire books are out there now? How many books that sounds like Da Vinci Code? How many people trying to mimic the success of Amanda Hocking?
Your lack of enthusiasm for m/m romance comes through loud and clear. I would say take a break from it, because it’s beginning to affect the site in some ways. I see more of the same old authors being given space & their books reviewed while newer authors are being ignored or turned away.
Hi Sara
I think we all do, or at least we expect reading would turn out to be a pleasurable experience. What I said in the post is that the pleasure is a bit diminished lately.
If you’re referring to a particular book that wasn’t reviewed because there was a short het scene in it, I thought I explained the site policy to you, which is that only M/M books are reviewed here. Reviewers can read whatever they choose and as a matter of fact they all select the books they want to review, I don’t. Outside of reviewing I also read and enjoy many other genres.
I think you are making the assumption that I only read M/M. My range of literature and fiction is quite wide and I would never restrict myself to any single genre. I think the post asked legitimate questions and some of the readers seem to agree that there’s a sameness in the plots and the characterizations in many books, together with a lack of quality control.
I will ignore that comment because it doesn’t deserve a response.
“If you’re referring to a particular book that wasn’t revkiewed because there was a short het scene in it, I thought I explained the site policy to you, which is that only M/M books are reviewed here.”
I think you have me mixed up with someone else. You’ve never explained your policy to me because I’ve never asked, at least not that I recall and I never questioned anything about a particular book. It’s your site to review what you will.
I don’t agree with the “familiarity breeds contempt” statement. I think there’s a quality issue. More and more of my reviews include variations of “with decent content editing, this could’ve been a good/better book” – and it’s not just small, vaguely fly-by-night publishers, either.
What you said, Chris. I read in a variety of genres, not just m/m. I read from several different m/m presses and I consciously try to find new authors. But the content editing issue is a growing problem across presses and sub-genres. So many books have an unfinished, partially baked feeling to them.
I turned to m/m in part because issues central to a romance can be explored in different and innovative ways, and also because if the real world isn’t limited to het romance, why should my reading be? So when I see the same not-very-satisfying tropes repeated over and over, and when I see potentially excellent books sabotaged by being published without adequate revisions, I find it really depressing.
Sunita, you describe it well: “unfinished, partially baked.” Yes, that’s how I feel about a lot of what I’m seeing. There is a lot of work being published that just isn’t really quite pro quality–works that, if they were written in a more established genre like mystery or SF, wouldn’t be bought and published, because they’re not quite good enough, and there are more than enough writers who have mastered all the tools and take the time to fix the problems in their work before they submit it. But so long as the readers are apparently satisfied with work that reads like fan fiction, the publishers will keep buying it.
On the other hand, there are a lot of competently-written stories out there that are just bland, predictable, and uninteresting. Those are the ones I usually give up on. I can tolerate bad writing if the story is good, but competent writing is not enough to save a dull story.
Hi Gail
Excellent point. If we want the genre to be taken seriously the writing and the editing have to be just as professional as print. Many M/M novels are sold as print books and we pay a lot of money for them so readers have the right to expect professionalism.
“But so long as the readers are apparently satisfied with work that reads like fan fiction”
I take offense to this. A lot of fanfiction is actually BETTER than what’s being churned out by publishers nowadays. (And I won’t even bring up the fact that a lot of what’s being published is just rebranded fanfic– even by some 5-star authors reviewed on this site.) I find your comment somewhat snobbish and elitist.
Sure, a lot of fan fiction is very good. But my point is that it’s written by fans, not experienced, professional writers (usually). And a lot of what I am seeing being published in this genre right now reads like it’s being written by enthusiastic amateurs who haven’t quite mastered all the tools yet, like many (not all) fan fiction writers.
For some reason I can’t reply to Gail’s comment. But this is in reply to her.
Actually I know of at least two big agency published authors who write fanfic. Are you saying authors and other professional writers can’t be fans?
Not to mention things like tie-in novels which are just glorified fanfic with a “professional” wrapper.
You’re still being rather dismissive of a valid writing form. It’s disingenious to say all crappy writers come from a fanfic background.
Jumping in to agree with the editing comment. In fact, my last GR entries kept repeating that line about m/m stories. I can’t venture into unknown territories without trusted reviews from my GR friends (and this website).
It’s tragic – there are so many wonderful m/m writers who could truly be magnificent if only the publishing houses would invest in editors comparable to the rest of the publishing world.
Hi Sara, as one of the site reviewers I just want to address one of your points which I do not quite understand. I have the same expectations of the book I read for fun (and I have read and reading plenty of those in mm genre and not) and the book I read for review. Are you suggesting that I (I am not saying we because I cannot speak for my colleagues) should have different expectations?
No matter for what purpose I am reading, I expect the book to have entertaining plot, characters, if this is mm genre, I want the sex if present to advance the plot, etc. The book which wants to be historical and does not care to do a worldbuilding would have irritated me no matter for what purpose I would have read it. The book which has rape as means to heal the prior bad sexual experience would have annoyed me again no matter whether I would have read it for review or not.
I guess I am a reader with high expectations?
What I meant Sirius, is I probably wouldn’t have bothered reading that book in the first place or not bothered to finish it, while you, as a critic, finished the book. I would have read a review of it or seen what was written about it on Goodreads and knew to avoid it. I also understand that books are being suggested by publishers and others, for you to review and it’s not entirely your choice. I could be wrong about the choice part. Either way I’m freer to walk away from a bad book. I don’t feel an obligation to finish them. In that way I’m reading for pleasure not for a job.
I’m definitely not uncritical of books. I dislike some of the same things you mention.
Ah. Thanks for clarifying. No, actually it is pretty much my choice. The book which has unexpected rape popped up I managed to choose all my own from the blurbs we are getting it and which pretty much include latest new books. Now, is it my choice to walk away from it? I would not, because I feel bad to drop the book back in already huge list of blurbs, so in that sense you are right I feel it is my obligation to review it now, since I chose it all on my own. I am however pretty sure that Wave did not mind and does not mind when for one reason or another reviewer may return the book to her. I remember that couple times it happened (that was mentioned on the site) and I am sure she is ok with it – people may have triggering reaction to the book or for any other reason. So I am quite positive that we can walk away from the book, but I am not disputing that reviewing for a site is a volunteer job. All I wanted to clarify that I am not approaching the book for review with any higher expectations that I would have for any book.
To answer your question – yes and no. I was reading the blurbs you sent yesterday and I couldn’t find a single one that was more than vaguely interesting. The number of books that inspire meh or I want to throw the book against the wall feelings is rapidly increasing and even some solidly plotted, 4-star-rated books become ultimately forgettable. There are fewer and fewer books that increase my heart rate and more and more of those that frustrate me because they could have been AMAZING only if someone had bothered with more serious content editing.
But… BUT… When the boredom overcomes me, I take a break and read something else and when I return to M/M books I usually find some new gem, new exciting author in the midst of all that mediocrity and I’m not ready to give up yet. 🙂 I really don’t think the current apathy and boredom are that bad. In fact, I think they might inspire the authors and the publishers to try harder or take more time and care in putting out the books. Ultimately, this could and should lead to better books. And that’s what we all want, isn’t it? 🙂
Lady M, I agree with you. After reading M/M since 2005 I’m completely burned out. As you say, even those decent 4-star books are ones I struggle to remember a week or so down the line. A lot of it is down to bad editing, but this has been a problem for years now and instead of getting better, it seems to be getting worse! There’s one big publisher I used to buy a lot of books from, but recently there’s been so many errors and baffling stuff in their books that I just don’t trust them any more.
I’m going to take a break soon and I hope it won’t be a long break, I really do love this genre but right now it’s doing my head in!
Hi Leslie
That’s why I’m feeling so despondent – because instead of getting better after 8 years the genre is still making these elementary baffling errors and no one seems to care.
Exactly – and I can only imagine it’s down to the desire to shove product out of the doors as fast as possible. It’s awful when previously tried-and-tested publishers are making errors and sending out mediocre books. I don’t know if it’s because some editors have left or what, but I know I just don’t trust the quality from at least two big-name publishers these days :/
Hi LadyM
I sincerely hope that they’re listening because if they’re not the genre is sunk. You can only publish so many poorly written and edited books without them coming back to bite you in the ass.
Whenever I’m bored by M/M, or any genre for that matter, I take a break and usually when I return it’s a little better but my breaks are getting longer and the improvement when I return is not as I expected.
However, I really love the genre and want to see it get better but it’s taking an awfully long time.
M/M stories are like all other good stories – they require at the least a fresh take on the setup of the story, interesting plot and – hugely important – good characterization. No matter how ‘out there’ the set-up for the story is, there needs to be a logic within the world the author has built, and the relationships within it earned, not thrown together with no regard for what should or should not follow, given the setup and characters within the story.
Ebook authors feel pressured to put out new works at an incredible rate, esp. when compared to print authors, and I think this is a major problem with getting quality work out there.
Hello Theda
Is the pressure coming from the publishers? I don’t think readers would pressure an author to put out a new book a month, especially since they know that writing is not like working on an assembly line. Perhaps the pressure is self imposed because these authors feel that readers would forget them if they weren’t constantly in their faces with new books .
Hi back, Wave:)
Regarding pressure, I don’t think it’s just the publishers at all. The problem, I think, comes from multiple sources, but when you mention self-imposed pressure, I really, especially think you’re onto something. I’d add more – there’s a hive mind for the authors and the internet space they inhabit. It’s competition between the authors, and that they think they HAVE to put out a lot of work, because so-and-so has something out every month or every other month, whatever, and they’re afraid if they don’t compete they’ll be forgotten. I’ve seen net conversations wherein authors have reported daily word count output to each other, and it got a little unreal. But I think they just want to succeed, and comparing what they do to what other authors do is backfiring in some cases.
Then they have fans and publishers asking for more, which is wonderful, of course, but it lends an urgency to getting that next story out.
I believe that m/m authors think putting out multiple titles is the norm, and not being able to keep up to what others are doing means failure.
Hi Theda. I think I just posted all the same stuff that you said LOL. I could have just said … like my friend Theda! I leaped in at the end rather than finding time to read all these great comment :).
(but it gives me a chance to say hi to you and Wave and others…*g*)
Wave,
I’m a relative newcomer to M/M romance but I’ve already gotten bored. I was really active here for a while but then I just got bored (not with this site) with the books. I’m also not interested in a lot of the sub-genres, so taking the romance into space, into the past, into fantasy, or into crime/danger isn’t going to get me interested again. After taking some time off and reading gay fiction, I did enjoy the few m/m romance things I read. I had bought a dreamspinner daily dose but I’ve only read about a quarter of it and those are not long pieces (just enough to get me through a session on the treadmill/bike).
I’d like to repeat something that I wrote in response to Josh Lanyon’s post “Keeping up with the Joneses” (Aug 23, 2011) that I think also relates here.
That’s not *quite* how it played out. What happened is that a lack of quality control or standards led to many of those games not working properly. You’d buy a game for your Atari, bring it home, and not be able to play it because it was buggy as all hell.
That’s how Nintendo took over the world: The Nintendo Seal of Quality and the lockout chip.
If you were a third-party developer who wanted your game available for the NES, you had to meet Nintendo’s standards and licensing. Now, licensing and QC is standard for console games. At the very least, any game you buy for your console is guaranteed to work and not corrupt your machine.
So, the better connection to draw between the early-80s console games crash and the current state of publishing is between the QC and editing, rather than between game and story content. Publishing right now has an awful lot in common with the Atari game market in that any fool can put the product out there and the consumer has no industry standard to gauge quality by. Whereas the game cartridges were buggy as all get out, books are shoddily edited to the point of rendering stories unreadable.
Combine this lack of QC with a lack of content innovation, and you get customer burnout. I can’t help but wonder who our Nintendo will be.
Hi Jeffrey
I read your comment at the same time as Ridley’s (below) and I understand both perspectives.
What we probably need is something along the lines of the Nintendo Seal of Quality, but no one in the M/M genre is willing to put quality control and customer satisfaction first.
You have become bored after just a few months so you can imagine how hard it is for many readers to read the same recycled story over and over again and find it exciting. Do I still love the genre? I do. Do I feel that as a customer my needs are not being met? I certainly do. Will there come a time when I may crash and burn? It’s possible, but I hope it’s not for a while.
There’s no easy solution to this problem until the industry polices itself.
FWIW, I do think people are starting to speak with their wallets. Some publishing houses with notoriously lax editorial and quality standards are starting to run into financial troubles. There are houses at which I never buy books anymore because I don’t trust them to be competent gatekeepers or editors. Conversely, there are houses at which I often give my business because I do trust them. When enough readers are as fed up as you are and start punishing/rewarding competent/incompetent publishers with their purchasing habits, the bad books and bad editing will filter out of the genre.
Rachel
Unfortunately there are many new readers to the genre who are only too happy to have an alternative to het so they will buy most anything until they run into a brick wall.
This is true. But over time, it’s the readers who are out there buying 50, 100, 200 books a year who sustain the publishers in the long term. It’s THOSE readers who have the opportunity and the power to sway the genre by being very, very careful with where and why they spend their money.
And that, as others have said, is one of the reasons review sites are so important, and why I think a site should never be afraid to post a negative review. Of course, there are gentle ways to do that (sticking to facts and examples) and ungentle ways to do that (snark, sarcasm, personal attacks, and gleeful meanness), and I’d just as soon not see anything of the ungentle sort. But I have a lot of respect for reviewers like, for instance, Kassa, who aren’t afraid to stand their ground and let readers know which books to steer clear of–and manage to do it all with grace and kindness and a clear differentiation between subjective (personal taste) and not-so-subjective (editing, craft, story structure) issues.
There will and has always been the trashy or throw-away books, no matter what genre, in print or electronic format. I would hold these in a separate category because they are not written to inspire or become award winning. They are created for pure entertainment value in some way (I read M/M trashy novels for the crack).
But there are other books that attempt to be a serious offering that reads like crack. On top of that, the books have major editing issues. Serious books with plot, decent editing and engaging main characters are getting harder and harder to find. The fact that authors are saying publishers demand more and more sex scenes drives me up a freakin’ wall. Most of the time I either skim sex scenes, or skip them completely.
We need a reader representation group to these publishers, requesting better editing and more substance to our books. A few boycotts might work. 🙂
Hello Merith
Sorry it took me so long to respond to you.
What I’ve been told by a publisher is that many of their authors choose to insert additional sex scenes to raise the heat level of their books. The heat level apparently is the prime reason for a book becoming a best seller. I was told that they never ask their authors to “spice it up” but it seems when the authors get their royalty cheques and see the difference between a book that’s heat level 1 and one that’s heat level 3 they very quickly rearrange their priorities.
So it looks like those readers who like erotica are winning over those who are looking for just a decent story with engaging characters and a plot that isn’t hackneyed.
I think Buda hit it on the head when he said that familiarity breeds contempt. If we read one genre exclusively or even regularly, its conventions come to seem well-worn and tired. Frankly, they were already well-worn and tired when the genre first started, because that’s the nature of genre fiction. It seems reasonable and normal to me to get tired of it after awhile.
But, I don’t think that the kind of stagnation you’re pointing to is any different than what we find in other genres, like het romance and urban fantasy or mystery. There’s a plethora of crap and only a few gems. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m really wary of trying new authors. Instead I reread old favorites while I wait for my trusted authors to release a new book. Or, I look outside the genre entirely. I think that’s normal and a good thing. Being eclectic makes our standards higher, which means we end up wasting less money on mediocre books, despite the publishers’ best efforts.
And, even the lack of editing is a problem in other genres. Look at all the complains about Laurel K. Hamilton’s books for example. Publishers obviously care more about releasing a book and making money on sales than ensuring its comprehensibility in terms of grammar and style. I think this is a problem of the publishing industry at large, although maybe ebook only publishers tend to be more serious offenders than print.
Hi Alaina
I think many commenters are under the impression that I read M/M exclusively. I don’t. I read many genres and while I do find editing errors in all of them, I think M/M is probably the worst. I don’t know if it’s the short timeline from submission of a ms to release, or if it’s just inexperienced editors, or publishers who want to get ahead of the competition. Maybe its a combination of the above, but most ebooks seem to have major issues as opposed to print.
Just another thought…I strongly believe that as readers and consumers we are allowed to have high expectations when it comes to the goods/novels we purchase. After all folks if I purchase from made in Taiwan I ain’t looking for Gucci=:) If one cannot trust blurbs written about books or valid reviews than I must admit I am in a bit of a quandry as a consumer and avid reader. (I do put Jessewave in the category of a valid review source–although not my only one–understandable, I think). I’m not sure we can always avoid the less than stellar reads when blurbs lead us to believe something that is not true.
I do understand the idea of “burnout” but also feel that the points Wave brings up are beyond any idea of simple burnout. As readers, aren’t we all just a little accountable to authors to let them know that their work is slipping–not as clean and tight as it once was or should be?–if not by written review than by sales figures?? I do believe we should do this compassionately and with great care–but I, for one, need my “betas” or reading group to let me know when what I’ve just scripted is better off lining the cat pan than the book shelf. Just a thought…
Yet whenever I complain about the quality of the product sometimes I’m made to feel as if I have an axe to grind against the genre.
Most authors don’t want to hear that their writing is slipping; even when they read similar reviews they feel it’s the reviewers who are wrong.
I find this to be somewhat true with all books, not just m/m.
I don’t review anywhere near as many books as I once did. I might spot a book with a blurb that pulls me in and has a title and cover that add a bit of interest, so I sign up to review it. I anxiously await the arrival of the book, begin to read, and then within the first twenty pages my brain puts on the brakes.
Not only are the mechanics of the story a mess, but I can only assume there are professional blurb writers out there. They must be given an extremely vague description of the book and without reading the story, they write a really dynamic blurb.
E-books have opened the door for anyone with a keyboard and internet access to put words on a page, even those who probably could better spend their time with other pursuits.
Finding a good book now is a bit like shopping at the Dollar Store. There are a few good things on their shelves, but I have to examine and look through a great deal of crap to find those good things.
It feels totally worth the hunt if I choose wisely and take home something great! But if I choose the wrong thing and later realize that it just doesn’t work right, I am disappointed and maybe a bit angry that I didn’t take the time to look more carefully at what I was buying. I still go back the next month and search through the store again.
I love to read and I will keep hunting. The good stories are there hiding amidst the As Seen On TV items!
Rant over.
Donna
I think you’ve really hit on something here with how shopping for a good ebook is like shopping in a dollar store. People are so accustomed to being able to buy books for $2.99 or $4.99 or whatever, but the thing is, quality costs money.
The reason most ebooks in this genre are badly edited is because the editors are badly paid. I’ve edited for two major Manhattan publishers, and in both those houses, the average novel–one already considered good enough to have made it past all the gatekeeping inherent in NY publishing–would spend about 100 hours in edits. And I’m not talking about the time the author put into it, either; those 100 hours were just from the editorial staff. A top-notch developmental editor will charge between $50 and $75 an hour. A top-notch copyeditor will charge about $50 an hour. Times 100 hours, that’s more costs in editing than the average M/M book will make in gross receipts.
The sad fact is that most editors at M/M houses are being paid just a few hundred dollars per book. How are they going to find qualified people to work for such peanuts? The answer is they don’t. And even if they do, quantity is so valued over quality in the several-new-releases-a-week production model that the editors aren’t given the time they need to polish the manuscripts.
In the end, that leaves us with the problems everyone’s talking about here. Even the best writers need excellent editors. And little frustrates me more than reading a mediocre book by a clearly brilliant author that could have been an /amazing/ book if only there’d been some strong editorial direction.
Circling back to the dollar store concept, more often than not, you get what you pay for. If you want consistent quality product, you’re not going to find that in a dollar store. You’re going to find that high-end boutiques. There are certainly publishers out there who fill the quality-over-quantity niche, who offer consistently beautiful and well-edited books, and their price tags reflect that. You can buy ten “dollar store” novels at $5 a pop and DNF nine of them, or you can take that $50 and buy five boutique novels and love them all. Sadly, there aren’t very many boutique e-publishers, and even fewer in the M/M space. This is why myself and Aleksandr Voinov and Chris Hawkins decided to open Riptide Publishing. We’re just as tired as the rest of you are of reading mediocre books. We want to change that.
I can only agree. In my pretty big portfolio, I’ve worked with exactly TWO good editors – the others were glorified proofers, finding my typos. I only find the mortal flaws in my published stories after a few years myself – apart from those two editors, I never got any worthwhile editorial feedback anywhere.
Now, I’ve been published for twenty years, but a newbie out in the market first time? Dreadful. Who’s going to guide them and help them improve their books? (Right now: pretty much nobody.) Betas alone don’t cut it, usually (there are brilliant betas out there, no doubt, but so many publishers are going the “if it’s vaguely coherent and has explicit sex, we’ll take it, remove the typos, slap a cover on with a hot naked torso and out it goes… sink or swim”.)
I believe the time is ripe for swinging back to quality – and it’s the smaller start-ups and boutique outfits that will carry that wave, in my book (apart from the two large publishers where the great editors live that I worked with).
Donna
I don’t think that most readers would mind getting the odd dud if they paid dollar store prices for ebooks. I have paid as high as $14 for an ebook.
It’s hard to choose wisely when the advertisement (read blurb) is misleading and promises something completely different to what you end up getting.
I think the blurbs are getting written better and better, while the books are actually the same or worse. It gets my expectations up as a reader, then I am more disappointed when the book doesn’t live up to the hype and my hopes.
I still read and buy but i have become a little jaded. There’s a lot of formulaic fiction out there, more and more, in fact, the more popular mm becomes. I’m afraid its going the way of het romance… Mostly uninspiring but occasionally brilliant.
Your post saddens me a great deal, for as a new writer, Gay Romance Org promoted my work, and if reviewers are no longer reading new authors, the next best thing out there may never be discovered, become discouraged, and stop writing altogether. What a waste that would be. In the past two years I’ve seen several review sites disappear, and mourn the loss, for there are limited ways a writer can reach new readers.
Yes, editing is an issue. Editing even within a house can vary. Boycotting publishers will have the same effect on the budding up-and-coming authors as lack of exposure, I fear. Their books aren’t selling, the publisher drops them. Convinced their work isn’t selling because it’s crap, another promising new voice is silenced and we never get to meet our favorite m/m book of all time, the one languishing on their hard drive, unpublished.
I read the posts on stats here and they show an increase in traffic, which I take to mean that readers haven’t lost interest completely. They flock here in increasing droves, seeking guidance in what they should spend their hard-earned money on, as I do when I come here for reviews.
You’ll never believe the impact the reviewers here have had on my book budget. They’ve introduced me to fantastic reads I may otherwise have never known about.
Eden
There is no intention to stop reviewing books by new writers but they will have to step up their game if their books follow the pattern we have been seeing lately. There are still a few wonderful new writers out there and I recently reviewed L.C. Chase’s debut novel which was a pleasure to read. However for me that was an exception, not the rule.
All I’m trying to say with this post is that the quality of these books need to be raised or we may all give up on the genre which would be horrible. I stopped reading het years ago because of the TSTL heroines and many similar problems that I’m seeing in M/M, and I’m hoping that authors realize we won’t continue to give them a pass for poorly written books. No one likes to spend their money for anything – books, a bottle of wine, dinner, whatever – and discover it wasn’t worth the price.
We are honest about the books we review and I know that many of the guest reviewers struggle with some of the mediocre books. No one wants to dump on the books but we have to tell the truth.
Right, of course despite my whining (again speaking only for myself) I will continue give new authors a try, because of course we all want new talents to be noticed. However, I will probably go back to trying maybe two-four new authors a month, instead of what I did recently – seven or eight in a row.
Ha, I started reading m/m because I was bored with m/f! Some genres had totally lost their steam for me, like urban fantasy, vampire, many paranormals, so I tried m/m and fell in love. Yes, there are some rehashed plots, for sure. But in general, I think the quality of m/m tends to be pretty high, but maybe that’s because I tend to stay with Loose-Id and Samhain authors (JL Merrow, Josh Lanyon, LA Witt and Ava March are favorites). I remember I tried one from another epublisher and was pretty appalled at the typos- some had me in stitches because they were actually pretty funny. But they made the book unreadable. If there are 2-3 typos minimum on every page, then there’s a problem!
Hi Tripoli
I wish I could find some of the frequently repeated errors funny. Maybe that’s what I need. 😮
I moved from het a long time ago because of the same problems that I’m seeing in M/M, except for the TSTL heroines. Unfortunately as reviewers we read a wide range of books by different authors and don’t have the luxury of sticking to our favourites. You mention some of my favourite authors and I can understand why you stick with them.
Given that the whole quality vs quantity issue is what Riptide is basing their releases on, I’m curious to see how things will change with them in the game.
Adara
I guess we’ll have to see. I’m hoping if they deliver on their mandate for quality that will put pressure on the competition.
I am still have room for well composed m/m. I am over-saturated with mediocrity.
I don’t even mind similar tropes! I could read some tropes over and over again if the characters shine and have their individual take on the situation. Not a problem for me. (Stopping myself from ranting about the writing techniques I hate. )
I have no idea about the site’s agreement/obligations to publishers, but it would be nice to take a TEMPORARY break from mediocrity and only finish to the point of review commendable books. It would be nice to have more enthusiastic reviews. If reviewers could skim the books, like most of us used to do in bookstores and then write reviews on the ones that evoke enthusiasm. :happydance:
I know negative reviews serve a purpose but maybe a break is timely.
There are sooo many WIP masquerading as
ready for primetime finished books. We readers need help finding the real books that are out there!!
It sounds like drastic measures are needed to survive the onslaught of the Zombies! :tease:
There are some GREAT books out there! Thanks to all you dedicated :god: writers and reviewers out there!!!! I would of given up on this genre if it hadn’t been for you all.
Thanks also to Leslie who has found some GREAT self published gems
I hope you stratigize :thinker: a way to make it fun again ’cause this is supposed to be FUN :hurray2:
Thanks! :loveyou:
Hi Reggie
Exactly.
We have no “arrangement” with publishers. We request books and when they send them we review them. That’s the extent of our arrangement. Unfortuantely if we request a book for review we’re expected to review it unless the blurb is blatently misleading e.g. there is a decapitation in a book that’s supposed to be warm and fuzzy.
The purpose of negative reviews is to tell unwary buyers about books that have major problems so that they would save their money. Of course every review is the reader’s personal opinion but we do try to be as honest as we can, even if we like a particular author who has just written a stinker.
I’m hoping that reading M/M will be fun again for me. The number of books I’ve read in this genre in 2011 is way down from previous years.
I have been reading original m/m fic for about 3 years now, but before that I was devouring traditional mainstream romances for over 30+ years. Sad to say unless it is Nora Roberts, Jayne Ann Krentz, Heather Graham, Jane Feather, Brenda Joyce, Christina Dodd, Michele Hauf or Penny Jordan, I am not buying it anymore. Like you I got burnt out on romances for a while and had to take a break from reading them on a regular basis.
I still go back to Harlequin and Silhouette series every so often when a blurb grabs my eye in the Walmart, but am very selective on which ones I buy now.
But, so far I am not oversaturated with m/m romances. In fact I wish I had more time to read and review. I don’t mind cliches, I loved them in traditional romances and love them in m/m, but I do find that if an author OR publisher frequently has too many typos or the whole book is poorly edited/written, I will put that author/publisher on a Do No Read (DNR) list. Fortunately, that list is not very long, as generally I think most new authors improve over time. The ones that don’t improve upon their craft and basically put out the same book year after year, I give up on. (e.g. Diana Palmer). I can only be loyal for so long, esp. when my hard money is involved.
However, your post scares me, as a new author, maybe I have come too late to the genre? :afraid:
Thanks, Wave for a thought-provoking post!
Hi Lasha
The same rules apply – if you write a well plotted story with believable characters, without too many cliches, and the editing does not leave too many sink holes, you will find that readers will be receptive. This problem of poor editing and uninspired plots as well as poor characterizations won’t be resolved until publishers invest in editing resources and stop demanding more, more, more sex scenes which don’t advance the plot.
Coming into M/M now is tough because I think the genre is saturated with not only poorly written books, but too many authors who churn out book after book after book with no regard for quality. I keep hoping that most new authors improve over time but a lot of them don’t. However, my money is on you to do well. 🙂
I tend to write what I like to read, so expect a lot of GFY plots and cop romances from me as an author. 🙂 As I said, I love cliches, I think there is nothing wrong with them. Give me werewolves, vampires and serial killers any day of the week…just don’t expect any cowboy fic from me. That trope is not my thing.
However, the short story I just submitted the two MCs are flight attendants, I thought that was something new. Please tell me I am a trendsetter there and no one else has flight attendants in love before. 🙂
Lasha
Okay. I won’t tell you. 😆 No, I haven’t read a book with 2 flight attendants – a pilot and a flight attendant – yes
I love cop romances and OFY is fine with me, but cowboys are like crack to me. I also love vamps (if the story is done well) weres, and even the odd story about serial killers, but Buda is the king where serials are concerned. 🙂
Yeah! I finally did something original. 🙂 So glad I was a flight attendant then. I told my mother flying around the world serving peanuts and Coke would one day pay off!
As I have a long post … I will split it into a couple. Here is the 1st …
I’ve heard a lot of the same talk about the M/M genre but I’m still on the fence. I have my favorites set on auto-buy and none of them have enough duds yet to be kicked off the island. In addition, there are quite a few themes that I go for regardless of author. I’ll at least give it a shot, anyway, and if the writing or editing is too bad then at least I know for next time.
I’ve been reading M/M for years and here are a few of my observations that may tie into your topic today.
1) Too many shorts –
A short story written well is a masterpiece. The economy of language alone is amazing. Choosing the right words to tell a complete story is not something every author can do. I compare it to runners – some are sprinters, some are cross country. It takes a different set of skills for each distance. Insisting that a runner switch their distance would end in disaster more times than not.
I don’t know the reasoning for why some distance authors are writing sprints. Do they not know their own strengths and weakness after so many years of writing? Is it by publisher requests/call outs? Does the author lose interest in the story and just wrap it up to get rid of it? Is the author not an author but instead a reader with a plot bunny? Whatever the reason, it has littered the genre with stories that are not as complete as they should be. And because they are between the $0-$4 range, they are the most accessible for new readers looking to try the genre and for M/M veterans who are looking to try new authors without spending a lot in this economy.
Hi MANtastic
Thank you for commenting.
I totally agree with you re short stories. Writing shorts is an art and unless a writer is experienced in writing them they are apt to fail. I’ve written many posts about how disappointed I am with these stories which often leave the reader high and dry.
Of course cost is a driver because new readers are able to sample the genre without spending a lot of money. However therre are just as many novels that have problems as short stories.
I have a dream.
I hope that one day, what we currenlty (tend to) refer to as M/M will actually be two categories: Gay Romance/Erotica and M/M Romance/Erotica.
Now, at the risk of pissing people off, let me tell you what I see as the definatory dividing line between these two sub-genres: Do you read the book mostly wtih one hand, or two? I’m not saying you can’t sometimes read the Gay Romance with one hand and vice-versa, just primarily.
As part of my dream, I imagine different publishers for each sub-genre, or at least different imprints. Gay Romantica (actually hate that word, but I’m using it for brevity) will be published by houses that uses editors and copy-editors. There will be quality standards that the publisher will adhere to. Writers who want to make sure their work is as good as it can be will submit their works to these publishers.
M/M Romantica publishers will use editors and copy-editors as well, but the focus will be on quantity.
If my dream comes true (and I think it already is heading that way — witness Riptide Publishing) readers will have a better idea simply by the house that puts out the work as to the quality.
That doesn’t mean we won’t get burnt out on gay romance. It just means we’ll have a reasonable expectation that when we come back, the genre quality won’t have worsened.
Full disclosure — I have a contract with Riptide, and I’m so freaking excited about it I nearly puked when I signed it. Why? Because of the quality of editing I’m positive, POSITIVE, I’m going to be getting.
Hi Anne
Thank you for commenting.
Whether or not M/M eventually splits into two categories wouldn’t solve the problem of a lack of excellent editing resources.
Right now M/M covers many genres and if it is further sub divided that may work for some readers.
I think any new publisher should try and improve the genre rather than just being interested in making a fast buck off the readers’ backs, and I’m hoping that Riptide is part of that new generation. I guess we’ll all have to wait and see.
Hi Anne. I feel quite passionate about this – that MM is currently one bit “pot” with all sub-genres included. Authors are required to use MM as their first category, regardless of whether it’s romance / SF / inspirational, whatever. I think this makes it even harder for readers to pick out good quality, enjoyable books. I’m not sure what the answer is, but I’m hoping that as the market develops, a more sophisticated categorisation will appear.
ok … I keep trying to post and it keeps kicking it back as spam so I will edit …
Too many shorts, followed up by novellas without enough detail to round out the characters/stories.
Attention span is dwindling because we flit from one story to another because they are so short. Everything starts to bleed together.
Sequels a-plenty without having enough of it’s own story to support it.
And the plethora of novice authors who need more time honing their craft before being reading for publication.
I will post my full post on my own blog for anyone who cares to see it.
Great topic! A lot of good responses.
This is a really interesting discussion, and I have so many thoughts! I’ll try to keep it brief.
I think I’m probably in the same boat as a lot of other readers; the genre hasn’t lost its mojo from where I’m sitting, but I’m pretty picky about what I read. (And I still enjoy writing m/m books, so I hope the audience stays there.)
I’ll take Rachel’s point and run with it a little; I think we have similar backgrounds (I’ve worked in ‘NY publishing’ for a decade, albeit on nonfiction) and, yeah, Rachel’s right, the smaller pubs can’t afford to coax the talented editors away from from the big publishers. So that’s part of the problem, but I don’t think it’s the whole problem, because good editors exist in the genre, too. It’s a weird thing because while I agree that the quantity of books being put out at the speed they’re being put out is probably a reason for the decline (or lack of) quality, a) this is an industry-wide problem (trust me on this, it’s something I have to deal with every damn day at my day job, and I’m children’s textbook editor these days, which is like the total opposite of m/m—industry-wide, everyone is working on smaller budgets and tighter schedules and it’s caused a decline in quality across the board), and b) as an author, I’ve also felt some pressure to produce, because how else do you make yourself heard in the tumultuous sea of new releases every week? (That’s a ham-fisted metaphor, but hopefully you get what I’m saying. Not that I’m personally willing to cut corners because I am an insane perfectionist, but I certainly understand the ‘OMG I have to get another book done soon!’ pressure.)
I hear you on the sameness problem, but then again, I just read a paint-by-numbers m/f Regency romance this morning, and you know, I really liked it, and I think it’s because the author took an otherwise sort of stale trope and put an interesting spin on it. So I don’t mind revisiting old tropes if the writing is good and the author has some clever ideas. And I certainly like to keep challenging myself as a writer—I have a book coming out in a couple of weeks with ghosts in it, and I never thought I’d write paranormal anything—so I hope readers keep coming back because I have lots of crazy ideas I want to try.
Ha, so much for brief!
Hello Kate
I agree that some pubs have excellent editors but there are few of them and hiring good editors costs money. However readers deserve better that we’re getting. We pay top dollar for these ebooks and when the novels are printed they cost more than some general fiction books.
Authors have to take a sense of responsibility for their manuscripts; they can’t always blame the editors because they are also involved in the editing process.
I agree that authors can rewrite a trope and make it interesting. I have read many stories which clearly use old romance tropes yet the author has made an effort not to be a copycat. this is one of the questions I asked in the post:
One of the greatest gifts an author can give a reader is imaginative writing and there seems to be a dearth of that in M/M. I do recognize that that problem exists elsewhere in the publishing industry but I only review in this genre.
I’m looking forward to your next book Kate. 🙂
I went through about 4 weeks of being unable to read a m/m book They were all going into my DNF file early. In my case I think it was 50% my current moods and 50% bad choices. I generally avoid writers who have a new book out every other week and there are a lot of writers I know get great Goodreads reviews by people they are on first name basis with. I read some of the stories and wind up scratching my head asking how on earth this book got 5 star reviews when the main protag has three different names in the book.
Editing seems to be a joke in about 40% of what I read. However I can easily read a book a day if I could afford it.
What I needed to do was switch genres and give myself a break. The alpha insta-love I found myself reading one after another was grating on me. No surprise there. I read 9 books all of the same “type” in a row.
Finally I read 3 DIKs in a row once I came back from my genre change. I just needed a break but I think I also need to be more choosy in what I buy. It isn’t like I can get most m/m books at my local library so every one comes out-of-pocket which is not the case in every other genre I read. I think I get angry when I bought a book that I couldn’t read any more after only page 25.
I would love to say I stick with my favorite writers but lately they have been releasing a lot of books one after another and I found the quality lacking.
Sadly I don’t think there is any one “cure” to this problem. I think as readers of m/m genre we read more than some other genre readers. I don’t know why that is but it makes it easier to get bad apples in a larger basket ya know?
Anyway, obviously I am NOT a writer but am a rambler so if you read this – bless you for sticking with it! lol I have to go read a good book now… if I can find one in my eReader.. shouldn’t be TOO hard as I think I have about 100! ha!
I have had occasion to take some of my auto buy authors off my list because they too have disappointed me and seemed to have joined the band where putting out as many books as possible is their only objective. Quality goes out the window with the increased putput.
I agree that M/M readers seem to read more than the norm – perhaps it’s sheer escapism – but then we end up spending money on books that could have been better spent on other forms of entertainment.
Huh, and I thought it was only me. Nothing like picking up and reading a book only to have the wrong protagonist – ie insert name – doing something or talking to himself- oh yes it has happened. The author or editor didn’t catch that the main character’s names got mixed so it ended up a two person conversation started by one protagonist and answered by the other protagonist but the name in the conversation stayed the same. “Alex said, ‘Alex you should not do that'” Confusion reigned. Or better yet, misspellings- There are publishers that I no longer will purchase books from either due to shoddy editing or the stories just simply stink. My DNF is growing. However, I view it as a chance -if I don’t at least give the book a try I could miss a truely memorable read. Yes, I read m/m m/f non fiction, sci fi, mystery, fantasy, romance probably everything just not true crime. I read hard cover and ebooks. My hope is that publishers will wake up and understand I want better books not just more books. BTW one of the newest writers Lissa Kasey wrote a wonderful book Inheritence- the blurb wasn’t great but the book was very enjoyable.
Hi Clovermax
Well put! However most publishers seem to focus on putting out more, more, more books and the quality goes down when the quantity goes up because they have only limited editing resources.
I’ll check out the book by Lissa Kasey that you recommended. 🙂
I blame the publishers to a large degree, because there have been so many jumping on the bandwagon–some publishing many a week–that they CAN’T deal with the quality. Others seem just to take any old poop they get and churn it out, and these types are the kind who can’t/won’t/don’t know how to do DEVELOPMENTAL edits. It’s not good enough to simply correct commas and (if you are lucky) sentence structure–if there’s problems with the plot then an editor needs to cut to the bone and say “no–this won’t do, this needs to be addressed.” I’ve had feedback from so many people from various editors who simply aren’t getting any editing other than a cursory spell check and realignment of commas.
And the other problem is (and I’m not going to rehash that here) the people who rush to get published because it’s so easy to get self published, and don’t think that they need to have any editing at all.
The publishers’ greed to take advantage of the rise and rise of m/m books (and I almost hesitate to call them books, because most of them are simply short stories) is not helping to create a level of quality. In most publishing genres, it’s tough to get published. Not so in m/m–I reckon anyone can get published in m/m, if they try hard enough. 🙁
Erastes
How are you babe? Thanks for commenting.
Your comments are on point especially this one:
That’s a major part of the problem. With the popularity of the genre anyone can set up a publishing house and know that the “authors” will flock to them. The readers pay the price for their inexperience and greed.
As for self publishing, I’ll just have to wait and see. Many failed M/M writers will rush to self publish. I hope that some of the writers who have abandoned the traditional publishing networks will purchase the necessary editing skills when they decide to self publish.
Yes and no for me. When I started reading m/m several years ago, there seemed to be a half dozen themes that the books would cover that seemed to be unique to gay men. At the time, those themes were new to me and I found the books interesting. They were valid and interesting themes, but one would guess that gay men go though the same issue the “rest of us” do, and those are the themes that have the most room to grow and develop into something good.
There is a lot of m/m books out there that want to be longer than a short so they add in sex scene after sex scene to stretch the book out but offer nothing to the story. There is a lot of that in M/F erotica as well, so m/m authors don’t own that problem 🙂 I adore well placed hot sex scenes, but without an actually plot they don’t do anything more for me.
I’m a romance chick, I read m/m for a different take and because male psyche intrigues me. But m/m is much more expensive than the mainstream romance and I’ve become more unwilling to give new authors a try and have been sticking to the same authors I know will give me a great story. I read a crappy historical romance novel that cost me two dollars for a print book and share with someone else and no big deal; I read a crappy m/m ebook that cost me eight dollars that I can’t do much else with, well that is a bigger deal to me.
I was writing in this genre before it was considered to be trendy or popular. I used to get emails saying that what I wrote was sick, and that I was on my way to hell. I also got emails saying that my book was the first they’d read in that genre and that they’d learned something. They learned that two men could love. I write in this genre because I love it.
I’ve seen writers jump on the bandwagon of m/m because they thought they could make money at it. It was trendy. Unfortunately, they didn’t like or understand it. It’s given the genre a bad name and the books are terrible.
I can’t understand why some writers are more popular when their reviews are so bad. I think there are some good writers in this genre but readers need to wade through to find them.
As for lots of sex in a book, there are readers who want that. There are readers who want that in straight stuff too. For me, the plot determines how much sex you get in a book. Blood Pond had little, other books I’ve written have a lot.
I write science fiction, horror, romance, but I hate the label of m/m. I despise it.
I have always said from day one, I look forward to a time when we can do away with these stupid labels. Why can’t we just read a book for the quality of the writing, for the plot? Why does it matter what sex the main characters are?
Until we get to that stage, until I see the category of m/m integrated with all books, I say we haven’t evolved much as a society. We still marginalize this genre because we don’t put these relationships on equal ground with male/female ones. We argue over who writes it and why, and are we sexualizing gay men by doing it, and blah, blah, blah. I read a book because it’s well written and I enjoy the story line. I don’t pick a book based on if it’s male/male or…male/female. This is what we need to strive for, writing good books. Those of us in this genre should seduce the readers who have never read a book with two men or two women in the lead, because they can’t resist the quality of the writing or the fascinating plot. We should make them not care either way. Step out of the ghetto and aim higher.
:bananadancer: :loveyou: :bravo:
Thank you for giving me something to think about
oxox
Hi DJ
Unfortunately a lot of these M/M writers give the rest a bad name because they don’t care about the product or the genre, and they find publishers with similar values who release their books.
I don’t think it’s marginalization but rather I believe that categorization of books by genre is because people want to find what they want to read without having to spend a lot of time searching. If all the genres were amalgamated it would probably be a lot more difficult for the readers.
I agree that good writing should be able to seduce readers into buying/reading a book and trump everything else, but if the topic is something they don’t want to read about that would be a very hard sell for authors.
Regardless of genre, whenever quantity of output takes precedence over quality of output, all respect for the art of fiction goes right down the drain. Issa’s right. M/M romance doesn’t own this problem.
All publishers — big and small, print and electronic — need to develop immunity to “acquisition fever.” Sad to say, our genre seems to have a bad case of it right now, and the result has been a flood of derivative, sex-saturated, and/or shoddily written/edited stories.
I’ve tried to pick and choose my m/m reads with great care, and I take breaks by reading outside the genre. What more can you do if you love this niche and are loath to abandon it? 🙁
Thanks for a thoughtful post, Wave.
Some publishers(I refrain from naming) are worse for that than others. I call these books ‘fillers.’ They have their top sellers who they pimp and pump for more and more and more, and the fillers, whom they don’t even read and are pure trash. They don’t sell but they fill up the front page. I even get my books read after they go through editing and they still find errors.
I hear ya, D.J. Eagle-eyed editors and proofreaders are crucial to our work. Even the most talented writers on the planet are probably not the most talented typists on the planet. At the very least, everybody drops words, transposes letters, etc. We need to be able to trust editors to have our backs.
Hi KZ
The problem is that they won’t stop acquiring new manuscripts because that’s how they make their money. If they would invest in good editors at the same time they acquire new manuscripts the problem wouldn’t be as huge as it is in M/M. I don’t understand why M/M readers are treated like the ugly step children. We seem to get a lot more poorly written books than other genres mainly because of a lack of editing, and it’s not because we pay less. I have bought ebooks for $14, almost as much as the print equivalent, because I don’t have the space for more print books.
KZ
I couldn’t have said it better.
Except you DO pay less, by and large. Most presses in this genre sell full-length novels in ebook form for between $5 and $8. In “mainstream,” you’ll pay about $13, generally speaking, for the same. That’s an extra $5 to $8 per copy, most of it going to the house (since mainstream royalties are usually about 25% of net, versus M/M royalties that usually float closer to 35 or 40%), that they can put toward editorial quality. That pricing HURTS us, especially since our genre is so niche that it’s virtually impossible to make up the difference in sales volume of a single book. An M/M novel that sells 5,000 copies is a HUGE success; those same sales numbers in mainstream publishing would be considered a total flop.
Readers have made it clear through their purchase habits that they WANT $5 novels and are willing to accept shoddy edits in exchange for the bargain price. The best way to tell publishers that’s not okay is to stop buying things that are cheap but shoddy and start supporting presses that are maybe a few bucks more but have clearly funneled that money into providing a stellar reading experience. And TBH, I don’t imagine that happening on a large scale.
Are we paying less though? I mostly abandoned paperbacks now and only buy them if I am in love with the book. However one of my bookcases is most entirely mm, filled with paperbacks. The lowest price for the paperback I paid was fifteen dollars. On the top of my head (and I could be wrong), I do not remember one single paperback mainstream romance, or urban fantasy, or mystery that I would have to pay for that much.
Seventeen – twenty bucks is an average price for paperbacks that I have seen in this genre. I definitely feel that I am entitled to see much better editing for that price. Ebooks, well, from what I see mainstream pricing went significantly up in the last two years because of agency model. Before that I do not remember seeing the mainstream novel in ebook on amazon for thirteen bucks. But the editing was not that horrible in mainstream before agency pricing, at least in the books I bought. I mean, I only had my kindle for a year, but I have had Sony reader for almost two years before that and pretty sure that the prices were not drastically different.
I am also not sure where are you getting 2.99 prices for a full novel. On the top of my head (I can be wrong of course) I remember one author who puts out novels for this price in this genre (who is not self published, I mean, or is he? I am not even sure) – Jay Bell. And I found his books to be ten times cleaner than say some of the books from MLR who consistenly prices their novels lately for 8.99 and OMG some of the typos are embarassing. And if I notice them, believe me, they are embarassing. As ESL reviewer I do tend to miss some typos simply because I may not notice it.
Do I want $5 novels? I sure do, but I want them to be edited well. Ann Sommerville for example puts out self published novels for somewhere around that price which are again edited so much better than some of the stuff I bought from publishing houses. I am willing to pay more than 5 dollars, I had been buying stuff for 8 and 9 and 10 dollars and sadly, quality does not always show up there. I guess what I am trying to say that at least right now I am not seeing that correlation, that if publisher charges more for their books, quality goes up. I think investing in the editors is the best investment, which then will pay off ten times over. IMO of course.
I just realized that I forgot Samhain. They are I think the only MM publisher who prices their novels around 5.00. I find their editing to be many times better than lets say Dreamspinner who charges 6.99 for full novel or MLR. Sadly, I loved Dreamspinner stories much more till lately, and had been buying from Dreamspinner much more. I am at the point where I am about to stop doing that. I thought Dreamspinner had better variety of stories, but their nonexistant editing, especially with novellas just makes me very sad.
I just realized that I forgot Samhain. They are I think the only MM publisher who prices their novels around 5.00. I find their editing to be many times better than lets say Dreamspinner who charges 6.99 for full novel or MLR. Sadly, I loved Dreamspinner stories much more till lately, and had been buying from Dreamspinner much more. I am at the point where I am about to stop doing that. I thought Dreamspinner had better variety of stories, but their nonexistant editing, especially with novellas just makes me very sad.
Agreed overall, although I read a major Samhain WTF recently – I just couldn’t suspend disbelief to believe that someone with freshly broken ribs wasn’t experiencing pain being flogged while suspended, then being put on a bench and being screwed… 😯
I think there’s correlation, but not causation. By which I mean you’ll certainly find inexpensive books that are well-edited and expensive books that are disasters, but on a larger scale, it’s very hard for a house selling books on the cheap to afford great editing. You might get one or two here and there because the author self-edited extremely well, but I’d consider those outliers among houses who consistently price their books at half of what you pay from a Manhattan publisher on agency.
I wasn’t talking about paperbacks at all, btw, just ebooks. Anyone using POD printing must by necessity charge rather quite a lot more for their trade paperbacks than a NY house need charge for a mass market paperback they ran off 50,000 copies of. But I agree with you that if I spend $15 on a paperback, I damn well want it to be flawless or nearly so.
Hey Chris, would you email me the name of that novel? I probably won’t be able to suspend disbelief either, but I’ll probably still enjoy it 😉
Sirius, I agree with you re: Samhain. I have a book coming out with them in December and my experience there, at least as an author, has been universally positive.
FWIW, my short novel (37K words) at LI is priced at $5.99. And my first book (uh…I want to say 75K? *not* at LI) is $5.95.
If you play fast & loose with the $5 range and your definition of novel-length fic…There are a few floating around.
The editing process at LI is rigorous, though. Top notch. So the price point is no lowball reflection on the editing at LI, nowhere near.
Also, the only book of mine that’s gone to print thus far is priced (I think?) at $10.95. I think the print price point is highly dependent on publisher. Some are ridiculous; others aren’t. And I think the price is sometimes inflated initially, then drops. I can’t recall for sure, but I think mine started at $14 then dropped down?
$2.99 sounds like self-pubber land to me. I tend to like novellas & short novels more than the longer books, though, so grain of salt, etc.
Are we talking ebooks or print here? Because I review and read both m/m and m/f, and I frequently pay the same prices for m/m that I am for Agency m/f, if we’re talking about novels. Novellas are cheaper, and they’re often discounted, but not always. I’ve seen plenty of $6 novellas, which I consider to be steep for a long short story. I recently saw a novel by a newish author priced at $8.99. I didn’t realize they had gone up that much.
And it’s not as if m/f readers are happily paying more than $7-8 for ebooks. There is a lot of complaining when an e-book costs $9.99 or above, and commenters will frequently make a point of saying they won’t buy at that price.
ETA: Oops, plenty of other comments while I was typing/cooking. So, what Sirius said. As usual. 🙂
Ebooks. Print books from pretty much any small press are going to be more expensive because they’re printing them one at a time. A NY publisher runs off 50K mass market paperbacks, and it costs them like $1 a unit. An M/M press sells a paperback and they’re paying maybe $6 to get it printed. Then Amazon takes its cut and the author gets theirs and that’s why our genre has $15 paperbacks. Problem is, as I’ve said before, this is a super, super niche market. M/M books aren’t going to sell 50,000 copies. Most won’t sell 5,000. Sales figures I’ve seen seem to reflect that even 1,000 sales is a respectable run–and I’m talking ebooks here, not paperbacks, which sell many fewer copies than digital.
So if a publisher’s only expecting to sell 1,000 copies of a book, and a TRULY qualified, dedicated editor won’t work for less than a few thousand dollars, and a book’s only, say, $6, and third-party vendors take 40% of that sale price and the author gets 40% of what’s left, that means a house only makes a couple thousand dollars on that title, out of which they need to pay for cover art, editing, typesetting, advertising, and still hope to make a profit. Which is why it’s a shame so many readers won’t pay $9.99 for a niche ebook, because that higher price point leaves a lot more money for editing . . . assuming, of course, the house actually uses it for that. Which, sadly, they may not.
I don’t think it’s necessary to pump out scads of books every week to maintain a respectable profit margin. (Plenty of companies that have been around for a while don’t do things that way.)
The danger of acquiring too many mss. of questionable quality is twofold: first, even the best editors can only do so much to polish amateurish material; second, devoting valuable editorial resources, which are clearly in short supply, to books that don’t deserve to be published is the worst kind of exercise in futility. Solution: raise the acquisitions bar instead of continually lowering it!
I hope that publishers are getting your message KZ. I just read a book a few days ago that didn’t deserve the editorial time and there are many more like that. What a waste of scarce resources.
I’m in the same situation as Wave at the moment and am just fed up with the mediocre books that I’ve read lately. It seems like some publishers are willing to accept anything to the point where even I sit there and think I could have written a better story than what I’ve just read and believe me my writing would be very, very poor!! 😯
Don’t get me wrong there are a number of great authors in this genre that I follow. You only have to follow sites like this one and the same good authors are always mentioned over and over again…..Josh Lanyon, Jordan Castillo Price, J L Langley to name but a few. M/M just seems so saturated with poor writing at the moment that it is really difficult to find the good ones.
At the moment I am re-reading a lot of my old favorites (just finished Bareback and the Sci-Regency series) and I intend to just stick to my list of trusted authors for the time being unless I see a sparkling review of a new book that everyone is raving about. I don’t agree that the problem is the use of the same old Tropes because a good author can use a particular trope and still put out an amazing story and I think that is what makes them good.
I do simpathise with reviewers because I guess it is your job to sift through all the rubbish for us readers and I can so see getting fed up with the genre when you have to do that. I don’t think that I’ll ever get that fed up with m/m but I am becoming more picky in what I read. I hope you don’t get too fed up because without sites like this every reader who rely’s on reviews probably would not know where to start without sites like this pointing them in the right direction.
I must admit that a couple of m/m publishers out there seem to put out quality work nearly every time and I for one try and stick to those publshers over all others.
Hold in there Wave because it’s people like you who introduce people like me to the m/m genre and point us to those fantastic authors who need our support as readers to keep writing those gems that we all have on our ebooks and read over and over again.
Hi Stace
I don’t mind the old tropes if the authors would put a new twist on them but when you read the same story 10 times in a row and the only change is the name of the protagonists and probably the city, it’s pretty discouraging for a genre that started out to be innovative.
We try to do a good job with our reviews and whenever we find a gem of an author we praise him/her to the skies e.g. Leslie pointed readers to Ben Monopoli whose first published book, The Cranberry Hush, is excellent. However his book is self published as is his newest.
There are excellent writers out there – we just have to find them.
Wave, I’m sorry you’re so unhappy with a genre that you love and I hope you find a way to enjoy it again. I have to agree with you that there are an awful lot of very poor books in this field.
There is a point I’d like to make, though. There are books that you love that I don’t care for. There are books that you hate that I love. Personal taste is an issue. Not everyone’s definition of a poorly written book is the same.
To answer your question, no, I’m not bored. I still find plenty of books I enjoy very much, but since I’m not a reviewer, I can be more selective about what I read. Your website is a big reason that I read more good than bad. Thank you for all you do.
Kiracee
I would be very surprised if half of the readers who check out my reviews like the same books I do or vice versa, because my taste is pretty eclectic. 🙂 However this post was on the general issue of quality control (editing) and the lack of imagination in the stories.
I expect to read some retreads because of the volume of books I read (which is now a lot less than in the past), but conversely I don’t expect to read the same story 10 times in a row by different authors. So, yes, there is definitely a lack of imagination which is why boredom has set in.
Taking a lot of time away from these books has worked for a while, but unless I completely give them up or quality control improves there doesn’t seem to be a solution, at least not right now.
I’m apologize for being unclear. I was trying to be brief (something I don’t accomplish very often) and apparently I overdid it.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the poor editing issue. As several other people have commented, I see so many books where I say “Too bad, that could really have been something special with a little editing.”
I disagree with you about originality. I am going to use Hot Head by Damon Suede, which I believe you enjoyed as much as I did, as an example. The basic idea of two (supposedly straight) guys falling in love – I have read that many times. Firefighters – ditto. Even the first sexual contact occurring while filming porn I have seen before. So I can’t say there was anything original in this book. What sets it apart, IMO, is the sheer quality of the writing, the fabulous characters, the richness of the setting.
I believe that if you gave two decently skilled writers the same outline, they would come up with different stories and that both would be enjoyable to read, even back to back, simply because of the quality of the writing. Conversely, writers with poor writing skills would not come up with a good story, no matter how original and imaginative the plot. Of course, you may not agree with me – this is just my opinion.
At any rate, it seems to me that you really loved the m/m genre, and it’s sad that you have been so disappointed in it lately. The reviews on your site have considerably enhanced my enjoyment of the genre, since (unlike you) I’m now able to avoid many of the stinkers. I cannot thank you and your reviewers enough for all the effort you have put into this site.
Hot Head was definitely a high point for me in terms of the books I read and reviewed this year. I didn’t expect to love it as much as I did and it’s an exceptional story: Strong, imaginative writing, protagonists that own the page, secondary characters that I fell in love with, even the cooking was a wonderful experience – Damon was able to take these and other ingredients and blend them into an exceptional cocktail – the key ingredient was his writing skill.
There are other gems out there and I keep wishing I could find them to get me out of this dark hole. A recent treasure (for me anyway) was Muscling through by J.L. Merrow.
It’s not an easy job being a reviewer because you read some books that literally turn your stomach ecause some publishers don’t include warnings about content and you come across something offensive (to you) unexpectedly, but you soldier on most of the time because other readers deserve to know which ones you think they should avoid. Of course it’s always a matter of opinion – my trash may be someone else’s treasure and I know that some readers buy books I don’t like just to see if they are as bad as I said. Or their tastes are different and they know that something that raised my ick buttons would be a book that they would absolutely love. 😀
I have to figure out what I’m going to do because I can’t take time off from the site, but I might give up reviewing for a few months which means that I only have to read those books from my favourite authors that I know I will probably enjoy.
“I might give up reviewing for a few months”
I think you should, Wave. Life is too short to be miserable. Better to take a break now than to give up altogether later. Maybe you could take on some more reviewers to spread the load a little?
Personally, I think you deserve a vacation. 😀
Not going to lie, reading the comments here felt highly discouraging.
I’m a very new author, my three releases came out in June. Two of them were incredibly short, a 1500 and 17k…but that’s due to the publisher not wanting something bigger. All the same, I was encouraged to fill in calls for submissions, to get my name out there and to grab a larger reader base.
The 17k one has done badly on goodreads review-wise. There are errors, some of them I couldn’t understand because I KNEW I had corrected many of them(yet somehow they ended up in the final release) and some of them I missed because I was in a bad way when it came time for editing, and I wasn’t as diligent as I normally would have been.
But now, it seems this one story, which I did not have as much time to work on as I would have with my novel, will be the stopping point for many readers tired of the ‘same ol, same ol’.
Meanwhile, I have a novel, which I spent well over a year on between edits/re-writing/etc, that has received far less reviews, but all are positive, which will probably be disregarded because the short story I wrote wasn’t what people wanted.
And yes, there are errors with that one as well, some are the same from the short story, which confuses me because I had several people go over it, including myself, and those errors weren’t there when submitted for final publication. Or at least, I surely didn’t notice them being there, nor did the other 3 people who edited it.
At this point, I find myself frustrated. Should I simply stop submitting? I don’t just write M/M, but I wonder if the issue is simply I’m not good enough for publication at this time, and should hang back for a few more years until I’m ready.
I haven’t submitted anything since then, because I learned my lesson with the 17k story (I refuse to submit another short story, as I am obviously not good at it) but I keep asking myself “Should I just quit while I’m ahead, and come back later?” Because, between one side saying women shouldn’t even be writing gay fiction, to the other side saying we’re not producing quality work, I find myself lost, confused, and unsure of what to do next.
I apologize for the whining. It’s just as a new author, I feel as if I’m diving into an unforgiving genre, where you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Hi
Catherine. Don’t be discouraged. If you are a good writer and you’re careful about choosing your publisher, you shouldn’t have a problem. The key is to love what you write, don’t write it to hop on some band wagon. And double check your editors. Get someone to read it even at the end and send the changes to your editor. Good luck and keep writing.
D.J. Manly
Catriana, re your reviews, go check out a few of mine for I Omega. Yours are practically glowing in comparison — many voodoo dolls have been heinously abused in my name, LOL.
Don’t worry about it, dude. Write the best book you possibly can — and then find someone to help you make it better. Don’t publish ANYTHING until/unless you have the time, energy and mental focus to make it the best it can possibly be.
A very wise person told me that if you’re in this for the long-haul, one book won’t make or break you. It’s the body of your work that defines your career. That said, you DO have to protect your brand — your promise to the reader. Don’t submit anything until it’s ready. Don’t rush-to-publish until it’s ready.
JMTC
I don’t read BDSM and I liked I, Omega. Ignore the voodoo dolls. :evilgrin:
Plus you know I am waiting for In the Red.
You don’t like BDSM and you read IO? OMG, you poor thing. You just forward those therapy bills right on to me, LOL!
ITR’s coming along. Due in a bit, actually. Not as intense as IO with the BDSM, probably more your cuppa. ;D
I’m a fan of the genre, but sadly, I have books in my Could not Finish file than in my Read file on my Kindle.
Editing is a major problem. Last night I read one paragraph, with three sentences – one sentence had 28 words, one 23 words and one 22 words. Even Word points out wordiness. They rambled. This was by a big author in the genre, pubbed by a big house. Sad.
As a First Wave author with Riptide, I’ve been through the editing process and have the battle scars to prove it. Nothing I have ever been through, except labor, has been so thoroughly harrowing, but in the end, I’m happy with the finished product.
Because of that experience, I requested that a het novel of mine be pulled from production at another pub until I have time to polish it up. The editor was no more than a comma policeman and for me, as an author, that isn’t good enough anymore.
As a reader, I can’t wait to delve into the Riptide catalog. I’ve read so much from so many other houses, and I’m not spending anymore money at houses that have proven time and again that they don’t care about the reader or the author for that matter. Someone here said if the story is hot and could possibly hold together, it’s bought by the pub. That, in many cases, is sadly true.
Great post, Wave.
I’m about to run out the door, so this won’t be as indepth as I’d like. I don’t think readers can be too critical. All we want is to be entertained and if books in this genre don’t meet certain minimum standards, people are going to lose interest and read outside the genre. Or go watch a TV show. Or go to a movie or surf the internet. There are a thousand different things competing for our leisure time and money. And if one book is just like another is just like another–well, I’m going to get bored really quickly. In the early days there wasn’t much to choose from so we’d read anything, now there’s a glut of (bad) stuff and finding something good may take more time and weeding than we’re willing to invest. Same exact thing happened in the manga market a couple of years ago. It’s the glut of poor quality offering that will kill the genre. Not a lack of readers.
I have a couple of thoughts. First of all, IMO the quality is not declining. I won’t give examples of amazingly poorly edited books from several years ago, because that would be mean, but I have them (and they include big name authors form well-known publishers). The Good Old Days always benefit from the rosy glow of nostalgia. And it is a very common reaction to love the first few books you read in your new favorite genre and get much pickier afterwards.
Second, we are reading in a tiny little niche market that, where (according to what I read above) a best seller sells 5000 copies. A book that is going to sell 5000 copies will not be getting 100 hours of edits. Most of us rely on authors we like and reviews, but of course reviewers don’t have that luxury.
Which bring me to my third point. It really, really sounds to me like some of the reviewers are burned out. Especially (sorry) the author of this post. I am not trying to piss you off, but it shines through. This isn’t the first post where I have noticed this. The only cure for burnout that I know of it getting entirely away from the cause. I realize that this is difficult prescription for someone who runs a review site, but I really think it would be the best move.
Finally, I will refer to Sturgeons law: he said that while it’s true that 90% of (science fiction ) is crap – but then 90% of everything is crap.
Charming, burned out means for me that I do not want to read more books in the genre. Speaking only for myself, I love this genre, I am not going anywhere, I am just tired of low quality books, thats all. And of course when I say low quality I am not talking about subject matter of the book, because we all like different things, just about editing, especially content editing. Of course being a reviewer means reading more books by definition, more bad books (bad as in what I consider low quality books). However I had always read at least two three books a week (novels) when I did not have a kindle, when I do have a kindle, sometimes I can read three four novels a week, if I am reading short stories/novellas, number can raise to seven eight a week (both mm and other genres). I have a long commute, read super fast and sometimes read at home too. My latest seven/eight reads in mm had been duds for me. They had been duds not because I am tired of reading about two gay guys in love, who are saving the world, or just living their lives and things are happening to them. I see things in those books that somewhat competent editor should have pointed out to the authors IMO. Does this happen in other genres? Of course it does. Do mistakes in other genres happen on such embarassingly obvious level? Maybe, but since I am reviewing in this one, those books that I have been buying in other genres do not have those mistakes. I am not even sure what point I am trying to make besides being tired of bad books and not being burned out 🙂
I am glad my partner DJ Manly commented here. I would like to add a few comments myself. Somebody above said editors make a few hundred dollars a book. This is usually not the case at all. They are often working for a percentage of sales that a book makes which means they of course want the hot authors to edit…and this money is not even monthly or quarterly but annnually! What kind of incentive is this for an editor? I know some who work for free ebooks, again hardly an incentive for longevity. DJ and I rely on beta readers who are marvelous but they catch things even after final line edits.
As for sex in books, readers and publishers demand it. One of the biggest publishers I write for just sent out an email to all its authors saying they want more sex and the first sex scene must be in chapter one. I don’t write that way. Some books just don’t work like that and it doesn’t make sense. Similarly I have had readers complain when I don’t have sex in my stories for a few chapters. What I have learned in the last four years is that you can’t please everybody…
See its things like this that scare the crap outta me and makes me not want to finish… sex is something for me as a huge newbie comes when it comes… However the one thing i can promise i will never ever bitch about is lack of sex in either yours or DJ’s books… ok going back to my dark corner
Aloha
oxoxoxoxoxox :biglove:
AJ, can I ask you what publisher asked writers for sex scenes in chapter one? I got a similar email from my publisher and just wondering if it is an industry thing or maybe we have the same publisher! 😀
You can reply privately, if you want: mslasha @ gmail.com
Editors don’t get paid much – depending on the publisher, it’s by the word at a low rate, or a percentage if the publisher is small and they have to hope the book sells. Freelancing is becoming the way to go for editors now, so I would expect to see some major e-publishers losing editors to freelancing just as they’re losing authors to self-publishing.
Huh. The best book I read in the past couple of months only had two pretty tame sex scenes and the first one was about halfway hrough the book. the two main characters didn’t even end up together. If the publisher is asking for sex in chapter one instead of the best book an author can put out, it sounds more like they’re selling paint-by-numbers rather than books. Wish I knew who you were talking about so I could skip wasting my money there.
Wish I knew which publisher this was too. I *write* a lot of sex, but it really does depend on the story. My last one was bursting with sex, but the next one, I string readers along. That story simply would not work with sex in Ch1…or even Ch7.
Demanding sex in Ch1 is *absurd*. That’s a publisher I want to stay the hell away from.
Chris, of course, I am not saying that they do not put out crap and as I said, I do not even buy that much from them. Till recently I liked stories variety and authors of other publishers much better, in general you know? But overall I notice their editing is much better than many.
Agreed – I’m much more likely to get a decently edited book from them. Re: DSP – I’m starting to wonder if the books that seem edited from them are actually because the authors in question go through a lot of work up front to turn in very clean manuscripts… 🙁
I actually think this is the case with a lot of publishers in the genre 🙁
Me too Chris, me too. Not that I am going to abandon them completely, especially when I will see the name of the author I love, but I am getting wary. Somebody mentioned Loose ID, I do agree that also on average the editing from them seems better?
Rachel, I am still not sure I am convinced. Could you maybe give the example where charging for books more results in better quality, in mm I mean? I brought the example that I find MLR editing (in general, of course there are exceptions to everything) worse than Samhain for example. They charge almost twice more for novels than Samhain does. I do not see a correlation here. Again, do not get me wrong I am willing to pay for well edited ebook 9-10 bucks. A lot of readers I know actually are not willing to pay that. I am one of your dream readers, believe me, one of those who spent a lot on the books and even with reviewing copies I still spend a lot (a bit less than I used to, but still a lot). But even for me, I need to see that the book is well edited first and so far I had been more than forgiving in that aspect. Show me the sample of not one well edited chapter and the rest of the book then may turn out to be a mess. Give me 20/30% of the work as a sample, I will pay a higher price if I am interested. Thats just one reader experiences and opinion of course.
Like I said, I totally agree with you that more expensive does not automatically equal better-edited. It might, as in the case you mention above, just equal greedy :-p
But take, for example, Counterpoint, which I’m pretty sure you read. That was a $9.99 ebook, and it spent MONTHS in edits. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if my editor had put in 100 hours on that. I certainly did on the writer’s end. And despite being a $10 book from a first-time author at a first-time publisher, it’s sold exceptionally well. I put that down to having had a brutal developmental editor and a meticulous, highly-qualified line editor.
We’re certainly hoping to do the same with the books we’re putting out at Riptide, too. Fact is, I CAN’T name another publisher who takes a higher price point and funnels that money into strong editorial because I’m not aware of one. It’s why we started Riptide in the first place; there’s clearly a huge desire for consistently high quality in the genre and, given the ultra-niche nature of M/M romance, the only two ways to pay for it are to give the author lower royalties or ask the reader to pay a couple dollars extra. My experience with Counterpoint was admittedly a very small sample size, but it taught me that people were willing to pay the extra couple dollars for a well-edited book.
I have not actually, but paperback is in my bookcase waiting for me to read it together with the second book when it is out ;). Yes, I do dislike cliffhangers that much and need to know the end that much lol.
But yes I see what you are saying and it makes sense.
Ah, I thought I saw you talking about it somewhere. And LOL yeah, I feel you on cliffhangers. Which I guess makes it odd that I wrote one, but hey, it’s no secret I’m just a teeny bit of a sadist 😉
And ah while we’re at it, I’ve seen some pretty poor excuses for writing in m/f books as well, so maybe we shouldn’t just pick on m/m. E books are the future so publishers need to clean up their act. Get qualified editors and pay them properly. Actually read the book before just accepting it. And take some pride in your business. I run a business myself and I take pride in the service I provide. Editing is definitely a problem, otherwise I wouldn’t need a clean up person after going through three rounds of edits.
Absolutely, D.J. And in other genres, as well, in print books that come from large NY houses. I’ve read some really dreadful horror fic lately.
Glad you pointed this out.
Late to the party as usual (we were buying a car).
I have been fed up with quality for some years now. I have had my share of DNFs, where I couldn’t get into “We have 2 chapters of plot followed by 14 chapters of sex.”
I haven’t been reading much at all this year. Only half has been m/m. One was GLBT zombie stories. Most of the rest has been horror. I’m kind of burned out on words.
I’m even tired of writing m/m. I’m working on het cyberpunk right now and in edits on a bisexual urban fantasy (not much romance). I’ll be back to the genre, but not for a while.
Regarding the argument that the lack of developmental editing is the source of badly put together erotic romance books… Oh, boy, I’m about to get long-winded. Please bear with me!
I really don’t think it’s fair to place all the blame of mediocre books on the editor and the publisher. The points already mentioned are valid, but it’s only part of the puzzle to me. The authors and the readers have to share some of the burden of blame here.
Are there author mills? Yes, of course, they exist, and I could probably name a dozen of them. They churn out books without regard to content or editing. Why do they do it? Well, sadly, because they’re cheap and those books sell. It’s why some mediocre publishers still exist after a decade of shoddy work. If their books only sold four copies, they would be forced to revisit their business model, but, as it is, those books sell. As long as readers buy them in droves and don’t complain enough about the content to actually stop buying from those sources (putting their money where their mouths are), that business model will continue to be lucrative. Are the publishers to blame or the readers? I realize this isn’t a popular point of view, so everyone is allowed to disagree.
Authors are also partially to blame here, if you ask me (not ALL authors, but some ^_-). There’s an assumption made that bad books were simply badly edited, taking all blame away from the author. I think this isn’t always the case. Some authors will vehemently argue with their editors and their publishers, and then refuse to make changes that would have positively effected their book. Some authors are impatient and unwilling to wait through the process of quality editing. In the end, some will refuse to work with a publisher for subsequent books because they didn’t agree with the editing they did, in fact, receive. This doesn’t automatically mean that the publishers didn’t provide the service–or even that the service was BAD–but might mean that the author refused to put in the work needed. In most cases, the editor is trying to make your book better on both the grammar and the marketability sides of the coin. While it doesn’t always happen, some authors get over-protective of their work and don’t leave any room for changes.
Ultimately, there is enough culpability to spread around. This is a very systemic issue in the genre. You can’t just point to one thing and say definitively that ‘this here’ is the only problem.
Everything’s interrelated. Authors who don’t like a publisher’s style of editing (even if it’s GOOD editing) will then refuse to publish with them again… and that’s why some publishers give in and publish without much editing: they’re too scared to step on the author’s toes and lose their business. Publishers are nothing without authors, so when authors aren’t willing to edit correctly, some publishers decide it’s in their better interest to publish crap at higher volumes. And reader sales support them. Authors also then go to publishers that take hands-off approaches and only do a basic line/copy edit. When the book’s sales don’t reach the author’s expectations, they then blame it on the lack of editing when, by taking it to a hands-off press, they received exactly what they wanted.
See where I’m going? It’s very systemic. Not one single thing changing will magically fix the problem on all levels. Authors need to accept editorial direction, editors need to be more aggressive with their editorial direction, and publishers need to back their editors, and readers need to vote with their wallets for quality work. Without all that, the change can’t ultimately happen.
The good news is that not all publishers cave. Not all publishers are satisfied with publishing crap at higher volumes. I can’t speak to any other presses, but I can say that Storm Moon Press does its best to break that cycle by devoting the time needed for quality editing (content/developmental AND copy/line editing). We appeal to readers by offering clean, quality fiction at fair prices. We appeal to authors by having great editing, amazing cover art, and a one-on-one, personal approach that is incredibly rare in our niche market. ^_^
Just wanted to put my opinions out here with everyone else.
~K. Piet
Excellent points, K. There’s indeed plenty of blame to go around. Readers and authors have to shoulder some of it too.
Oh most definitely. When I complain about lack of edits, I do not mean to say that great edits can make a good book if originally there is nothing to make a good book from. As some commenters said I am convinced that there are some books that COULD have been great with good editing, but of course there are books which no editor can save, even I realize that. What I did not realise though with lack of insider knowledge about the industry, that there are authors that would fight with the good editor and against the edits which are needed. Oh dear. So yes, again, I am only talking about the books which could have been helped by good editing and as we can see not all publishing houses provide it (according to the authors).
Kris
Thanks for commenting.
I do agree that authors are partly to blame and I said as much in my response to Kate McMurray’s comment. Authors have a responsibility to readers to ensure that their books are the best they can be before they sign off on them. They are part of the editing process and it’s their name on the book.
I have been impressed by Storm Moon Press and I’m happy that you don’t cave on the editing side. 🙂
You are absolutely correct that readers have a responsibility to speak with their wallets. Unfortunately, by the time we realize we’ve been had we have already bought the books. There are some publishers I no longer purchase from after having been burnt once or twice.
However the editing in the genre has to improve or M/M will lose a lot of loyal readers.
Hey, Wave!
Oh, I most certainly agree. When consumers don’t know what’s going on (and most honestly don’t care), it makes it difficult to impact the market. One can hope, though.
I’m glad Storm Moon Press has impressed you! We hope to continue to impress. ^_^ Because we never want to be a HUGE press (and by huge, I just mean in the number of authors we have signed in any given year), we are able to make the writing and reading experience much more interactive and, hopefully, with awesome results!
~K. Piet
I’ve been reading all genre, including m/m, most of my life, and I’m 50.
In the early days I went for boys’ adventures like Rick Brant and Tom Sawyer, enjoying the male friendship, and always sought that type of novel with a strong male friendship as the core of the story. I accidentally discovered Mary Renault in the early 70’s and loved her lush writing and became a huge fan of m/m novels.
But years ago the gay novel was usually melancholy and angst filled. Few ended HEA. I wanted HEA or getting to HEA. I think we’ve come a long way from Michael Nava, Joseph Hansen and Richard Stevenson, all good writers but I didn’t really click with their characters.
These days we have fabulous m/m writers in all genre, paranormal, sports oriented, time travel, mystery, suspense, romance, scifi, you name it.
Most writers now, in my experience, don’t write “gay” as another character, if you know what I mean. The whole point of the novel isn’t that they’re gay; sure, it’s obviously part and parcel of the novel but the characters live their lives as doctors, PIs, firemen, police, lawyers, construction workers, nurses; have the same issues as everyone else in their lives, money issues, work issues, relationship issues, family issues, pet issues, etc.
Granted there are some dreadful novels out there, but the gems make up for the rest. They give us great plot and settings, characters you wish could go on and on, banter to make you smile or weep or laugh out loud or have you sitting on the edge of your seat.
I don’t think there’s a saturation point, at least not for the good writers. I find something new and interesting in every novel by my favourites. Just like in het novels, it’s the talent, imagination and craft of the author who takes a basic theme of boy meets boy or a who-dun-it and make it their own, delivering to readers hours of pure reading pleasure.
The good writers like Lanyon, Boudreau, Harper Fox, Katie Allen, Tamara Allen, Roux and Urban, Elle Parker and SO many others, have a special something and their novels, even those with a similar theme, are fresh, interesting and (unfortunately for me as I have to get up at 6:00 a.m for work), impossible to put down.
I think m/m novels just keep getting better and better.
Madonna
Thank you for commenting.
Like you I have been through a number of genres before I started reading M/M and I loved books like The Charioteer, The Front Runner and Swordspoint because of the exceptional writing. M/M started off with both guns blazing, but for me recently those guns are shooting blanks except for a few favourite authors. That is not acceptable to me as we try to support new writers by either profiling them or asking readers to nominate their favourite new M/M author
I hope that I’ll be able to regain my enthusiasm for the genre soon.
Apologies, I haven’t been through the 150+ posts so I’m sure this is repeating stuff :). But I feel stirred enough to add my three penn’orth.
I think a lot of this is due to the changes in the MM market, even the very way it works and communicates with us. Authors are fish in a “pond” of fiction which is growing much larger and much more swiftly than other established genre markets, There’s pressure on MM authors and publishers to increase the volume, and that’s often at the expense of quality.
I think it’s also affected by the nature of e-publishing. Everything’s produced more quickly, more easily (at first glance, anyway), and entry to the market is easier. Then once an author’s “in” and the excitement and awe has worn off a little, they should take – and be allowed – time to sit back and work on their craft and ideas. But instead there can be a feeling of panic – they’ll get left behind in the rush to be this month’s latest, that they’re expected to keep up with that faster production line, that their longer, more thoughtful works will get buried in the jumbled pile of all-genre, all-style publications. I don’t think this happens so much in mainstream, where delays and a slow pace are already expected.
I’ve commented mainly from the POV of an author, I’m afraid, but I’m a committed and enthusiastic reader too. I suffer all the same worries as you :):). But I truly believe that many authors produce great work, entertaining stories and fine quality craft, and that’s compared with all genres, not just MM on its own. It’s just that we have to search more carefully to find them now :).
Clare
It’s wonderful to see you and thanks for stopping by.
First of all I want to say that so far none of your books that I’ve read fall into the categories I’m talking about in the post – cliche ridden, boring, uninspiring etc. 😮 I have always admired your writing and you know how much I enjoy your books.
I don’t understand why authors panic about not having enough “product” out there. I would much prefer to read a book/year by an author which was well researched, the writing was top notch, there was an actual plot and the characterizations didn’t suck rather than one by an author who belonged to the book of the month club. Samhain takes a long time before they release a book and much of that time is spent in edits, yet their authors love the editors.
There has to be a compromise, because the way I see it if M/M doesn’t improve, a lot of readers will become ex readers.
I’m searching, believe me. 😕
Still relatively new to this genre, and not tired of it yet. In fact, I’m still very excited to discover gems and treasures in this island. I base my buying habit to reviews from my friends and site I trust, like this site. When I first discover M/M, I researched recommended books from your site and Rainbow Award winners from Elisa Rolle’s site, which allow me to discover the gems. I do stumble on some not so great books, but they’re minority. Based on reviews and discussions, I usually know which authors I should stay clear of because they don’t write stories I might find myself enjoying.
Hi Cleon
You’re lucky that you have such a vast array of books from which to choose and you also have the benefit of recs from friends and review sites. Reviewers have to sift through a lot of books to come up with those they recommend and that’s probably why I’m feeling blue about the genre. There’s so much available but not a lot worth reading.
However that’s probably a temporary blip, at least I hope it is.
Hi, Wave,
An excellent post and you’re stating a lot of what I’ve felt for a long time. I’ve been reading mm fiction for many years, long before my first mm was published, and the over-emphasis on sexual athletics and as many kinks as the author can cram in have put me off reading a lot of well-established writers.
I want strong plot, intriguing and well-drawn characters, and an HEA or HFN ending. I want the intrigues, the emotion, the passion, the drama. Tab A into Slot B, C or D gets old quickly, as if the author is ticking off boxes in the Kama Sutra. I don’t read that and I try not to write that.
But have the publishers cottoned on? I had a story rejected because though they loved the characters and the plot it wasn’t hot enough, and I wasn’t prepared to stick in a gratuitous sex scene.
So what’s the answer? I’d love to know…
Chris
Hi Chris
Re your story, try different publishers. Not all of them believe that M/M should be erotica. Sure, sex sells as one publisher told me – when the authors see their royalty cheques and realize that the “hot” stories are raking in the dough and the mild one is sitting on the shelf, they go for the gold.
However there are a few authors like you who refuse to pander to those readers who are looking for a “hot read” instead of a well plotted story with memorable characters, and if enough of you stick to your guns the readers will come around. Right now there isn’t much choice for readers like me and I would welcome stories rather sex romps, although they have their place in the genre too.
I think part of the problem comes from the standardization of the genre. As in, are publishers accepting and releasing only romance that ‘fits the blueprint’, and rejecting romance that deviates from the usual tropes? I think this situation might be arising, because of fear that variety wouldn’t give the readers what they expected. But maybe that variety is what the readers need.
Interesting because I was just reading some Goodreads reviews of a book I happened to love because the characters were different and real and had flaws and quirks, yet some readers had a hard time with them for those reasons (most enjoyed the book, but a few comments made me think). Are readers more comfortable with safe, cookie-cutter characters who behave predictably? Is this one reason not only m/m but m/f romance is becoming a bit anemic? I’d rather read about a character who leaves me wondering and trying to figure him out than one who follows the familiar path. But maybe I’m in the minority? I think some of the more interesting books are the ones that get a big variety of reviews, from hate it to love it. Just saying.
Tripoli
Like you, I love books that are not predictable and take me on a different path. It shows that the writer put some thought into the plot and the characters so that the result, while not everyone may not like it, is certainly a walk on the wild side.
I love books that make me think, and my tastes are eclectic. Many readers may go ?huh? when I rave about a book. 😮 For example Jordan’s Petit Morts series is one of my favourites. Why? Because the concept of one character holding the entire series in his hands together with the unusual stories is a real kick. Add to that there are 4 authors who are now writing books in the series and you have dynamite.
However we may be in the minority and that’s probably why we get so many “colour between the lines” stories. I love to play outside the lines. 😀
Well put, Tripoli. It’s definitely the characters and not the storylines that are the major problem. I think we need a bit more ambiguity and complexity.
To be honest, that’s why I loved Barging In, which was recently reviewed here. The characters weren’t perfect — the tattooed guy, whose name I’ve forgotten, sorry, was discovering who he was during the course of the story, and that made him so much more interesting for me. Neither character was always likeable, but they acted like real people, and found their way to their HEA. And the setting was so different too. I think it boils down to author’s voice a lot of times too. The same two people can write similar stories, but one has a voice you can’t stop reading, and the other will just be blah. Well, anyhow, I’m definitely not burned out yet on m/m, and I hope this terrific discussion gives authors some food for thought. Thanx for such a thought provoking article! 😀
I’ve noticed this as well- when I’ve written a really difficult man, a pain in the ass character who is as real as I can write him- naturally I love him, but I get reviews suggesting this character needs some lithium and a good therapist, or a kick in the butt- ?? It’s age, I think. The men I liked at 20 are not the men I’m writing at 50. But I’m taking joy in the work, and that’s most of the reward. Maybe readers who can’t stand my characters now will like them more when they get older.
Well put, Cornelia!
This is one of the reasons why we love your work so much at Storm Moon Press: you have wonderful stories that push the limits ‘the romance blueprint’ would impose.
Tropes definitely have their places. Heck, if you have three weeks of your life to spare, you can read all about EVERY trope out there at tvtropes.org. Part of the fun of writing, though, is writing something outside those tropes or even subverting the tropes. It keeps things interesting and breaks that monotony and standardization you mentioned. ^_^
Variety is the spice of life. I think you’re right that it needs to be the spice of the genre as well.
~K. Piet
Hi Cornelia
I set up shop here because it was different and not the usual “romance” model. A major reason I’m having such difficulty is because publishers and authors are trying to force fit the het business model on to M/M. Gay men are not women in pants so why do readers expect them to act like women in different situations? Even the characterizations are sometimes CWD (chicks with dicks). If I wanted to read het romances that’s what I would read.
I did a post a long time ago asking readers what were their expectationbs of M/M and they were all over the map, which shows that in some ways M/M could still be the wild wild west that I love, and a certain segment of readers would love it. That’s what I hope anyway.
I must be the stand out because I have reached a saturation point – for so much of the poor quality, badly written crap that’s flooded the M/M market. I read quite a lot so I’ve always looked for new books/authors. Unfortunately, I’ve been burned once to often. I’m much less likely to buy a book from an unknown author unless it’s got a fresh, intriguing plot and is highly reviewed. I’d rather wait to spend my hard earned money on books from my tried and true authors (write faster please! 😉 For the money publishers are now charging for short “novels”, I’d much rather re-read my favorites or buy from their backlists.
Ellie
I’m hoping that the comments by readers like yourself will be a wake-up call to many M/M authors that the old days of accepting anything in the genre may be over (I hope).
I have to agree with you regarding the short novels. Novellas and very short stories don’t interest me at all as my preference is to delve into a meaty plot, get to know my characters and spend time with them. Although I love the reviews on this site and Goodreads, when I find out it’s less than 100 pages I usually won’t read the review.
I also dislike m/m/m. They’re on my dnr list.
You would have missed out on two excellent stories by J.L. Merrow: Muscling Through and Pricks and Pragmatism.
Sometimes there are a few gems among the short stories.
don’t give up the shorties! I really love to read and write a short story- it’s a totally different animal from a novel, and you have to read it like the unique child it is. But it can be such a joy, a tiny look into another life, like the little match girl wandering down a snowy street, peeking into glowing windows.
So I’ll add my 2 cents late. I don’t know if I’ve hit the breaking point yet, but I know a 45,000-65,000 word count story I could read in 2-4 days, now will take 2+ weeks. What I’d like to see are authors taking their time, write the longer book with well developed MC and plot lines. Publishers should remember great stories make for loyal customers which = MONEY. But I think as the consumer I have to do my homework if I’m not willing to gamble on a book being good and take the hit if its not.
Patty
I agree that we all have to do our homework but most reviewers try to read a wider range of books to help other readers make better selections. We’re not always successful of course and some of the problem is that many blurbs bear no relationship to the books requested for review. As you said, what is more important are well developed characters and believable plots which make for great stories.
One of the issues, for me, is works being touted as OMG FABULOUS!! that just *aren’t.* Until recently, I hadn’t read a lot of m/m romance – I’d been busy writing my stuff. I agreed to read a couple things and give my opinions. What I was given was rubbish. One of the stories didn’t even remotely follow the blurb, which sounded interesting. I waded through bad editing, plot holes, ridiculous situations, instant love between characters who’d never even spoken to each other, situations that couldn’t actually exist, characters doing things physically impossible during sex, sex with a minor (with absolutely no warning whatsoever – wth???), characters who call each other by their names every single second, characters using words that hadn’t been invented when they were supposed to have been alive, whiny gay men throwing themselves at each other (because that’s what we all do, yanno), man pussies, man tits, disgusting terminology like “gooey” being attributed to penises, and so much lubeless anal sex my ass hurt in sympathy.
Had this been my first foray into m/m, it would’ve been my last, and I’d only read a total of 8 books!! I honestly felt bad for readers. How are they to distinguish the good from the bad? How much money are they going to have to spend to find that one good book? At least I didn’t have to pay for the ones I’d read, but if I had, I’d have contacted the publishers and demanded my money back.
Editing is a big issue. Not just line editing for typos. Some of that gets missed, no matter how hard you try. I can personally say, with all honesty, that my books are line edited by myself three times before submission, and by an absolutely fantastic editor at BP three times. We still find things afterward. Why? Because the human brain see what it wants. It turns form into from if need be, and you won’t notice it until two weeks go by, and you’re staring at your beautiful bouncing bundle of e-book joy on your screen…and then you bang your head on the desktop and wail. Seriously.
The editing that’s missing is *content* editing. I don’t know why, either. I’ve worked with editors who didn’t ask me for content edits on things that I think they should’ve. I’ve worked with editors who told me they found only one typo in my whole manuscript (which I really don’t believe). Right now, my Breathless Press editor is very in-depth. If we miss something then we honestly just missed it. Or if it’s a plot issue, it’s something we hashed out and didn’t think was an issue. That’s why I’m sticking with Breathless Press. They’re much younger than other publishers, yes. But the editing I’m getting there so far outweighs the editing I’ve had *anywhere* else, I’d be an idiot not to stay with them. And I’m not afraid to go on record saying that.
And I know a lot of it is personal taste. Do I think it’s plausible for a man to be *in love* with someone he’s never spoken to, as I read recently? Hell no. That’s absurd. But someone else might find it infinitely romantic. ::shrugs:: There’s no accounting for taste. Stephen King’s been phoning in his work for years now, and people love him.
I don’t agree with folks who say there are no new ideas. I think there are, but often times they get pushed aside. “Readers won’t want to read that.” Let me tell you – there’s an audience for everything. Everything. All one has to do is hang around a kink forum long enough and it’s there. If a publisher wants to dive into that market is beside the point. The market exists.
What’s the issue with m/m? Bad editing? Writers who are writing for profit and not because they feel the stories in their bones? Writers who are writing m/m sex because “OMG THATS HAWT!”? (I swear if I see that spelling one more time in something other than a LOL Cats post I’m going to stab someone in the eye with a spork.) Publishers who are publishing for profit, and not because they want to stand behind quality work? Readers who are accepting crap because they don’t know any better? All of it?
What’s the answer to the m/m doldrums? ::shrugs:: I don’t know.
What I do know, is I sincerely didn’t realize the amount of drivel that’s out there. And I’m sure some would lump my work into the same category, though it’s definitely better than the 8 I recently read, and I’m not afraid to go on record saying that, either. I’m not Shakespeare, but I’ve turned out better stories in *one day* than all 8 of these put together. Frankly it’s insulting for a person like me, who has had to scrape and claw their way into writing, let alone into this industry, to be held up beside someone who slaps a headless torso on a pile of crap and calls it art.
Therein lies a larger issue, and one that I think is the most insidious. Authors and reviewers (NOT including this site!) patting other authors on the back for crap. I read a review yesterday of something I’d read and given bad marks to. The review GLOWED. The reviewer might as well have walked right up and actually kissed the author’s rump. The book Was. Not. Good. It just wasn’t. And it’s a crime to let the author think it was.
I see this all the time in places like Facebook groups – people posting excerpts that are really just BAD and others falling all over themselves to render praise and “OMG that’s so hawt!!!!” (I’ve still got that spork!) and “I WANT MORE!”
Well, I *don’t* want more. I’m going back to reading the way I used to do it – either I know the author and they’ve proven they have a brain, or taking my cues from sites like this one.
Which isn’t to say I’ve agreed with every single review posted here. I certainly haven’t. I’ve even disagreed with one or two reviews of my own stuff here. LOL But what I have found, by and large, is a review site that takes the review seriously, and isn’t afraid to post 2 or 3 star reviews and say the book wasn’t good.
As a matter of fact, I’m no longer submitting my works for reviews to a couple places, just based on that. How on earth am I to trust what they say about *my* work, if they’re lavishing 4 and 5 stars on drivel??
Hi DC
You make some valid points in your comments. One that jumped out at me was this
Josh Lanyon wrote an excelllent post 6 months ago about editing, including content editing. Here’s a link if you’re interested:
http://www.gayromance.org/2011/03/08/the-blue-pencil-blues-josh-lanyon/
We have to wade through all of that “drivel” and come up with intelligent reviews that don’t dump all over the author, and try to use words that won’t offend and don’t sound as if we’re kicking the writer to the curb.
We try to be as honest as possible in our reviews here even though some authors think we should give their friends a pass, after all “it’s just one book.” However we write reviews for the readers who will be putting down their money and we think they should know what they’re getting, before they buy. We also advise readers to check out other reviews.
Is there a solution to the current problem? I don’t know but I sincerely hope that there are some changes for the better.
The editing that’s missing is *content* editing. I don’t know why, either.
It’s because effective content editing is actually quite difficult.
How on earth am I to trust what they say about *my* work, if they’re lavishing 4 and 5 stars on drivel??
Amen. I left a couple of writing lists because of that godawful “if you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all” attitude. That’s not what reviews are FOR. Not to say that criticism has to be harsh, excessive, or used to ridicule a writer, but if a book has a problem, the reviewer should explain what it is and why she thinks so. (One big problem, I think, is that some reviewers are not especially analytical and don’t know the difference between a review and a book report.)
If everything is praised, no matter how bad it is, then the praise becomes meaningless.
Lee
Amen to that.
Wave, I think this was a brave post, and kudos to you — and to your reviewing team (regulars and irregulars) for the work you all do.
With hundreds of new releases a month in what is, after all, a niche genre, of course the market is flooded. That’s inevitable. And of course we all go through periods of reaching saturation — it’s one reason I’m taking a year’s sabbatical. A break will be good for me and for my writing and (therefore) for my readers.
One reason your current state of ennui troubles you so is because you do still feel great passion for the genre. You care about its health and longevity, and it’s this concern, this self-awareness that goes toward building a healthy and thriving m/m community. That fact that you’re exploring these feelings in a blog post is simply the changing nature of social media and reviewing. 😉
New and aspiring authors need not panic. Good writers and good books will still rise to the surface. The genre is not going anywhere, and the fact that authors arriving later on the scene have to work harder to be discovered is simply the way of all genre publishing since the beginning of time. Publishing like pretty much everything else on our planet is cyclical.
I think the real message here is that with so much to choose from, there is less and less tolerance for mediocrity — and that’s really not such a bad thing.
Hi Josh
On Saturday night when most people were out having a good time I was sitting in front of my computer thinking, because I was dreading cracking open another book, afraid of being disappointed again. So I decided to write this post because I couldn’t avoid the way I was feeling any longer.
Maybe they will listen to you Josh. It probably won’t make much difference but I hope that the newer authors don’t get caught up in the book of the month club and release recycled PWP. I can’t believe the lack of progress in the genre after almost a decade.
Having not read any of the comments, this is strictly in response to the original article.
I think many people who read, write and self-publish gay (or m/m or slash) fiction are falling victim to their desperate need to have the all important Happily-Ever-After (HEA). I reviewed m/m e-books for a short while a couple of years ago, but opted to quit within six months because I found most of the stuff to be no better than Harlequin romance in terms of prose style, characterization and [to a lesser extent] storyline. That being said, I think the plotlines are the least of the problem here.
The mistake I think many readers (male and female) make is that they equate tragic [or even ambiguous] endings with the books and films of the past that seemed obligated to punish gay characters for their errant sexual ways by making them ashamed or ostracized or suicidal. Yet, by the same token, I don’t know a single on-line reader of m/m fiction who didn’t adore Brokeback Mountain, Dream Boy or As Meat Loves Salt. These stories have sad endings, sure, but they’re also great love stories in the vein of Wuthering Heights, Romeo and Juliet, Madame Bovary and Othello.
Seriously, where would Shakespeare be if he felt the need to give all his characters happy endings? Would Romeo and Juliet be as moving or as memorable? Don’t say yes…because you’d be wrong.
I think the majority of m/m fans I’ve encountered on-line strike me as slightly immature in their insistence on characters with no emotional complexity (i.e, antagonists are all moustache-twirling villains and protagonists are either perfect angels or emotionally damaged men who just need rescuing and are ALWAYS redeemed) and coy “blushing bride” cutesy-poo happy endings.
If more people would step up to the plate and try and write something as complex and daring as As Meat Loves Salt, then maybe readers would have something to get excited about.
Oh, and please don’t everyone pile on at once. Just my humble opinion.
HIi Blake,
I am all for ambigious and complex characters, I do disagree though that tragic ending equals better chances that we will get those characters. I read a very “special” book for review recently, which annoyed me a great deal and had tragic ending. Tragic ending was the least of my problems with this book, believe me. Anachronistic, idiotic characters were my main problem though.
I love happy endings and I have read plenty of books where to me characters were complex and interesting and were happy at the end. However and here my “happy ending” requirement may differ from many readers, I will settle for any kind of hope at the end, I will settle for characters not staying together, I just prefer them not to be dead. Is it really impossible for the writer to write complex flawed characters without killing one of them?
I will even on rare occassions read the books where one of the characters dies, but they better be something as good as Dreamboy or At swim two boys, or I am not buying.
By the way, really do not get the appeal of As meat loves salt, tried hard to read it, really did not care for the writing. JMO of course.
So, I guess I agree and disagree, disagree that unhappy endings necessarily means great characters.
I want the writers to write what their muse demands, I will never ever downgrade the book simply because it has tragic ending. I have read plenty of classics with tragic endings (as I mentioned before Russian literature of 19 century, which is my first and forever love is not famous for happy endings), but yeah, I would prefer if possible to avoid deaths in this genre.
However, however if this is *all** that stops writers from writing great books (readers unwillingness to read the books with tragic endings), I will be the first one on line to buy the book which is great otherwise. Only truthfully I doubt it.
Also just one person opinion.
Okay, so I reread what I wrote and want to clarify some more. Of course I do not mind deaths in the stories, all that I want is for main characters to end up alive. Is that really such a huge restriction on creativity? I mean this is just what one reader wants obviously, but I would imagine that those who do not want main characters to be dead may have the similar thoughts in mind. I don’t know, as I said if that is such a huge problem, by all means, write a book which is as awesome as Dreamboy, I will buy it.
Oh and of coursse one person’s opinion, not person. Sorry.
Blake
I enjoyed all of those books you mentioned and I would like to add The Front Runner, another gem. However most M/M readers were originally “romance” readers – het, Harlequin and the like, and they despise books that don’t have a HEA or HFN.
I don’t know how successful Dreamspinner’s Bittersweet line is but I would bet you that these books don’t outsell those with a HEA/HFN, no matter how well written they are. It’s a mindset.
Again this is a holdover from the old romance genre model. I must say that a few authors are trying to break this model but I don’t know if their books are selling.
the thing about the happily ever after ending, real or not, is it gives a reader some hope, some feeling that redemption is possible. It’s that hope for redemption that readers need in the face of whatever conflicts the characters are working through.
I wouldn’t say Brokeback Mountain had a sad ending, because the message there, that love is everlasting, even stronger than death, that love can give meaning and form to a life, feels true and real to me. I loved that story. Now, Cormac McCarthy- he can write an unhappy ending. The Road? No hope, no redemption, that book made me consider finding some emergency cyanide pills.
The happy for now, which is all I can write, (being cynical and depressed most of the time,) at least gives readers some hope in the power of love, and gives them the possibility for redemption.
To all:
I’m wondering how much of this has to do with formula fatigue…all romances follow formulas, if only A meets B, A (usually) ends up meeting with B.
How far are you willing for your authors to stray from the general formula(s)?
I definitely welcome books that are outside the lines but I’m not originally a romance reader – mysteries and fantasy were what I started reading initially.
The thing is, I don’t consider M/M strictly a romance sub genre since it spans at least 10 other genres, many of which don’t focus on romance.
I’ve been reading m/m books for about two years now and I haven’t hit a fatigue point yet. But then again, I tend to skip around sub-genres (sci-fi, mystery, paranormal etc.), so the plots vary enough that I don’t get bored. Also, I only read books that are recommended on this site or the Goodreads M/M Romance group, so I rarely read a complete dud.
It must be very different for reviews… so I’d like to thank you and your staff Wave for taking one for the team and wading through a lot of trash to find these gems for us. We all appreciate it.
:bravo:
Thanks Diane, on behalf of everyone here who volunteers their valuable time to independently review books for the readers. It’s always nice to know we’re appreciated for our efforts.
What a great essay and all the comments are really thought provoking. Luckily I haven’t reached saturation point with m/m yet. I’ve actually had the opposite experience to Wave. I’ve found several fantastic new authors this year and I’ve been really excited to see what other newbies come onto the scene. My disappointments this year have been more with the older more established m/m authors whose latest books haven’t really sparked my imagination. But I do switch genres now and then which probably helps to keep things fresh.
Hi Mandy
I’m really happy that you have found many books that you enjoy and that there are some new authors whose books you love. I have found a few but not enough, taking into account the number of newbies who have moved in.
If I hadn’t switched genres A LOT I probably would have taken a very long break from M/M sooner. I love the genre and my expectations are the same as most readers – that the quality of the books would improve over time, but for me it’s depressing when book after book seems to be the same except for the title and author.
I don’t think that the quality of the books has declined recently, because I distinctly remember how awful it was when I started reading m/m romance. It always was the case (in my experience) that 80% of everything published in the genre was rubbish. I think it was just that it was so wonderful to have m/m fiction to read *at all* that the excitement of discovering it made the bad books seem better.
Now that there’s so much of it, we’ve forgotten what it felt like in the days when it was a longed-for rarity. And the fact that there are so many bad books to get through before you find a good one leads to the same kind of soul-destructiveness that poor editors must get when they contemplate the slush pile.
But over in the Science Fiction genre, they’ve believed that “90% of everything is crud,” for years so I don’t think the m/m genre is alone in that. It just makes the task of reviewers all the more necessary (and all the more difficult,) to filter out the good ones.
I’m firmly of the opinion that there are more good ones too, these days. The worst may have got more numerous but the best has got better.
Hey Alex
Thank you for joining the conversation.:)
I do remember the old days when M/M was the “new kid on the block.” I was very forgiving because it WAS new and it was exciting to have an alternative to het. But shouldn’t the quality of the books have improved over the years? Many of the publishers have been in the epublishing business for a long time and I would have expected that experience to translate into a better selection of books being made available to readers.
Thankfully I have a few favourite writers who are still putting out good stories, but its hard to find “new to me” authors who are truly committed to giving readers the same thing.
I think that what publishers and authors have learned over the years is that anything will sell. They’ve learned that they can dash off a book in the minimum amount of time, put no effort into editing it, slap on a cover, and it will sell. Having discovered that, why should they go the extra mile of giving the story time to develop some complexity, spending months editing it, proofing it and making it a quality product? Why put all that extra effort in for no reward – because the quality book will cost five times more in terms of time and effort to produce, but it won’t make any more money than the slapdash one.
Simple economics means it’s better for publishers and authors alike to produce 5 bad books than one good one. The only thing that stands in the way of that economic truth is the wish to take pride in doing good work, knowing that there is no benefit in it. And I’ve only got that luxury because someone else is paying my bills.
I actually think that the downturn of interest in the genre is a good thing – it will force publishers to see that they *can’t* sell any old thing. Perhaps once that’s established, quality will become more of a selling point, and will then be economically worthwhile.
Alex
Part of the problem we’re facing with M/M books is that readers have been content to sit back and accept whatever the authors and publishers send our way. If we stop buying books from writers we KNOW just throw a bunch of sex scenes together, without regard for characterization and plot, that would be a start because it would hit them in the wallet. Readers have to take some responsibility for weeding out bad writers who are taking advantage of us, by speaking with our credit cards, or not.
Absolutely. The publishing industry is set up to give the buyer what they want, and if it thinks they want ever more of the same, that’s what it’ll produce, at the minimal level of effort necessary.
Of course, then you get the problem of defining what a good book is. As far as I know, many people genuinely enjoy the books that are all sex with no plot, and one person’s poetic lyricism may be another’s purple prose. Everything would be a lot easier if the really good books consistently outsold the bad ones, but that so often isn’t the case.
Sturgeon’s Law, there.
Theodore Sturgeon was asked why so much science fiction was so bad. He famously responded “90% of Science fiction is crap. Then again, 90% of everything is crap.”
I find it works as a guideline.
I think we can often be a fickle lot. It seems when there’s a book out there that veers away from a “traditional” story, many readers will shy away from it.
If you look at what usually tops the charts in sales, it most often follows the typical formula: closeted cops and firemen; cowboys; military guys.
It’s what drives publishing, movies, TV and theater: people want and expect certain aspects (hunky hero; HEA romance; cleanly resolved plot) and if anything steers away from that, the work rarely finds a large audience share and stays in limbo. Granted, there are exceptions, but I think very few.
Hi, Bryant,
‘If you look at what usually tops the charts in sales, it most often follows the typical formula: closeted cops and firemen; cowboys; military guys.’
Yup, you’re so right. Unfortunately, it all boils down to one thing. The poor writer is damned if he/she does and damned if he/she doesn’t 🙂
Me, I’ll carry on writing the kind of books I want to write, and refusing to conform to the formula. My books aren’t churned out and released in droves, and don’t make the Top Tens. *shrugs* Tough, but I don’t see why I should compromise on my writing. It’s too important to me.
I’ve been told that kind of reaction is ‘unprofessional’. As far as I’m concerned, it isn’t. I won’t write to the lowest common denominator.
Hi Chris,
I always gravitate toward the unusual or the new take on things, so you’ll have at least one reader you can count on. 😀
I get so easily bored with stuff that follows a formula and doesn’t take me down roads I’ve never been down before.
Not unprofessional at all- for those of us still writing, still loving our books, and still not in the top ten, we are clearly writing for the story, for the love of the words. And that’s a pretty darn good reward. If our goal was money or fame, the ability to write to formula would probably be easier. But if our goal is to write something good and true and real, and offer it as gift to our readers- then we’re probably suceeding with our 25 dedicated readers.
Hi Sarah
I love this and I wish more M/M authors were as dedicated to the art of writing.
BTW I think you have a lot more than 25 fans. 😆
I can’t decide if my goal is to have 25 readers or to change the world with my stories! Either would be fine.
I imagine you’ve got it worse than slushpile editors. They can glance at a few pages and move on. I’m guessing you feel obliged to trudge through a larger percentage of a bad book before giving up on it. I really feel for you.
I also feel for the authors who have been unlucky enough to have their first efforts accepted by the small press pubs here online. In a few years, when they’ve sharpened their writing skills, they’ll look back on that early work and cringe in embarrassment.
I am so thankful my first few stories were roundly rejected by publishers. Those rejections were heartbreaking at the time, but now I see them for the blessing they were. I think if those efforts had been published, I would want to crawl into a hole and never come out.
New writers don’t always realize this. That’s why tough editors are so valuable and so necessary. They’re not just gatekeeping to protect readers from drek. They’re protecting authors with potential from ruining careers before they even start.
Mara
I have always enjoyed your books and it’s interesting to hear that your first stories were rejected, which was responsible for you learning your craft and now being proud of your writing.
Perhaps a few more M/M authors should get rejection letters because then we wouldn’t have to buy/read their “mistakes.”
Hey Wave,
I have arrived to diagnose the source of your ennui! Two days late and moving fast!
Ha! Not really.
I agree with Josh’s statement that you most likely do still feel passionate about the genre, otherwise you wouldn’t feel so let down by unsatisfying books.
But I have a different theory about what you are missing in books nowadays. I think you are missing unique and identifiable voice. A quick glance over books that you have stated that you liked reveals the common denominator of authors who have a strong, unusual, authoritative voice
I would suggest that you enjoy books written by authors who have a specific worldview and something to say, rather than authors who are merely making up stories, regardless of how entertaining those stories might be.
I also suggest you seek authors who are not necessarily “writing from their hearts” or who are “writing from their guts” or writing from whatever body part contains the highest level of emotion on that particular day. I propose that you seek authors who write from their brains, which is harder, yet more rewarding than writing from sections of the body devoted to things like pumping blood and digestion.
Nikki
You are always a ray of sunshine for me. Readers are still talking about your last column and you can expect an email from me in a few days asking you to work your magic again.
You’re right about the type of stories I enjoy. While I CAN enjoy romantic fluff or escapist fun stories and do, I also want stories that will move me, bring me to tears, make me mad in a good way, show me an unexpected path, make me think, make me remember parts of it in the middle of the night when I can’t sleep. I’m looking for books that are memorable not throwaways like dirty bedsheets. However I know that great stories take a little longer than a week to write and edit, so I’m prepared to wait. 🙂
I’m looking forward to The Irregulars – as a matter of fact I’m hoping that the release date of March next year is wrong and that the book will be here by the end of the year. 😀
I love the fantasies that Blind Eye Books publishes but unforunately you are a small publisher and only publish a few books a year so my fix is always delayed. Books such as Lord of the White Hell 1 & 2, and Wicked Gentlemen by Ginn Hale as well as her Rifter series are like manna from heaven to me, with the dense and incredible worldbuilding and wonderful characterizations.
However, I realize that many readers are looking for a different experience and much lighter fare and I do at times, depending on my mood, but not as a constant diet especially when the stories are so badly written. All I ask is that the books should be properly edited and the characters well developed. I would settle for two dimensional characters if the authors can’t do better, but I demand that there should at least be a plot not just a bunch of sex scenes strung together. Is that too much to ask?
You’ve got mail. 😮
I’m looking forward to The Irregulars – as a matter of fact I’m hoping that the release date of March next year is wrong and that the book will be here by the end of the year.
Ah, I’m sorry to disappoint. But, like you said, good fiction does actually take time. And shared world fiction takes even more time to get the details to all line up. But in the interim, and since I’m talking about voice and the importance of being able to identify it, here are 4 sentences. One from each Irregulars MS. Can you tell which of the 4 authors has written each sentence? The authors are Astrid Amara, Ginn Hale, Josh Lanyon and me.
A: Henry wore masking tape and ink-stained rubber bands around his nine fingers and was currently loaded with whiskey and a sweet, nameless poison.
B: He watched the agent pull a seat belt across his chest and Deven followed suit, mimicking the man’s gestures as he’d learned to do over the last year.
C: Archer studied Ezra, studied the beads of sweat popping out over Ezra’s human features, took note of the anxious licking of tongue over lips.
D: “And so you’re thinking that this is the work of some reactionary cadre of old-time religion goblin butchers, therefore you requested a native speaker to assist when you go talk to the community?”
Since I would probably get them all wrong because I don’t know who is writing which story, I have a better idea. Close to the release date we should pose these questions to the readers and the first one who gets them right gets a copy of the book. 😀
However, I think I can take a stab at one of them now:
C. Josh Lanyon
We also talked about an interview with all the authors and I’m holding you to it.
Yes, certainly. We’d love to do an interview. And yes, C is correct! (Now there’s only A, B and D…)
You are a hard taskmistress. Since I know I’ll screw up, you should think about my original suggestion to have readers come up with the answers to win a copy of the book. 🙂 They are a lot better at solving puzzles than I ever could be.
Oh my god. New book from you guys. I do not care how long it takes, I will wait. Oh wait, no I cant, but for the good book I will so wait :). Eh sorry, I often get very excited when I am learning that the new book is coming from the publisher and authors I love. Do you take preorders? I want to :). See I want all the books to be like Lord of White Hell, like Turnskin, yes like Wicked gentlemen. Not of the same subject of course, just well edited and well told stories. I do not need the love story to be the main focus, I love action and drama, I have eclectic tastes, even if I adore fantasy and scifi, but please let it be well edited and well told. Ok, I am shutting up now. Squeee, new good book will come eventually.
Sirius
The short answer to your question is “yes” 🙂 The Irregulars can be pre-ordered now. It will be released in March.
Oh I am so going to do that. Thanks Wave 🙂
My guess would be: a) Ginn Hale, b) Astrid Amara and d) Nicole herself. And yes, I was fairly convinced even before Wave guessed it correctly that c) was Josh.
You are such a showoff Liade. 😆
I could have guessed the other answers too but I wanted to give other readers a chance to show how smart they are, since I’m so nice. 😉 Nikki will have to find a really tough riddle for you to solve.
I’m also wondering – when is an M/M book a ‘romance novel’?
“Bear Like Me” didn’t start out as a romance novel — in fact, the romantic interest doesn’t show up until a few chapters in, and the romance parallels what you might call the main plot.
I’m looking at the novel(s) I am working on and getting a bit worried that, while there’s a strong love story in each, the main plot of the book is something else. Any way to know if they’d qualify? 😕
Jonathan
Thanks for joining the fray. The simple answer to your question is that a romance novel is one that has a HEA or a “hopeful” ending.
Here’s how The Romance Writers of America (RWA) define a romance:
Two basic elements comprise every romance novel: a central love story and an emotionally-satisfying and optimistic ending.
A Central Love Story: The main plot centers around two individuals falling in love and struggling to make the relationship work. A writer can include as many subplots as he/she wants as long as the love story is the main focus of the novel.
An Emotionally-Satisfying and Optimistic Ending: In a romance, the lovers who risk and struggle for each other and their relationship are rewarded with emotional justice and unconditional love.
This definition from RWA may be helpful to you in terms of the novels you’re working on
“Novels with Strong Romantic Elements
A work of fiction in which a romance plays a significant part in the story, but other themes or elements take the plot beyond the traditional romance boundaries.”
Here’s a link to the RWA site:
http://www.rwa.org/cs/the_romance_genre
Ah, wayyy late. Sent here by Erasts’ LJ post.
I think there are a combination of factors operating. When I started reading and writing pro m/m about five years back, there weren’t that many books out there, and much of what was drek was obvious from an excerpt. But there weren’t so many excerpts to wade through, either. Now, we see more books in a single sub-category — vampires, for instance – than you’d see in the whole genre.
And the game seems to have become less about writing well and more about writing fast and then promoting the hell out of it. Even the chat lists are no longer *chat* lists, they are “post an intriguing subject line and then drag the audience off to YOUR blog.” The yahoo lists used to have a sense of community. Now they’re just billboards for ads for individual blogs, and sites for endless repetitive promos where a handful of readers enter all the contests and nobody actually converses.
And the actual quality of the stories is never discussed except to slather praise on the latest release. Most review sites — this one and Speak Its Name are the two most notable exceptions — have policies that ensures free books for review — nothing negative, nothing critical, nothing that could possibly offend. This means more people spending their money on something they regret, and eventually getting turned off
Some of the quality issue is due to is publisher haste. Some of it is editors who don’t really know what a content edit is. (I get more useful content crit from my wife and a writing friend I won’t embarrass by praising her here than I have from my actual editor.) And sometimes editing is very awkward – an editor trying to impose her style on the writer, rather than bring out the writer’s voice. Though that is true in any genre. A degree in English doesn’t impart the skill to know how to do content edit. The only people I know who are any good at it are also voracious readers.
One thing I do find: I am weary of sex scenes that seem to be thrown in because the writer can’t think of anything better to do. Trouble is, though, that’s precisely what many readers DO want. I’d bet that for every person here who’s said they would rather have plot and characterization than hawt buttsecks, there are ten readers who buy the book solely for that.
Romance as a genre has gotten a lowbrow reputation not because of mean, awful critics, but because MANY readers are not at all critical and DO read only for the vicarious gratification of an HEA or HFN. They want the formula and nothing but the formula. And this formula, driven by those readers (who do buy books, and lots of them) have an effect on what publishers produce. Hell, when we see readers–and we do–who vow that they will never touch a writer’s work if either of the two heroes has anything to do with a woman.. when we see readers who MUST have a female character so they can relate (this puzzles me; isn’t it possible to relate to the 90% of a person that isn’t genital?) it’s obvious that much of what’s driving the machinery is the demand from readers who are not, in fact, much concerned with the quality of the writing.
And I suppose we are to blame for this in some respects. By promoting the genre, we’ve attracted people who are quite simply hacks that would write anything they can sell. If you have never run across a story where one of the characters had been given a hasty name change and gender reassignment and been popped back into a hackneyed romance formula plot… I certainly have. (If I never run across another frakking “alpha” male/submissive “beta” again, I’ll be one happy reader.)
I’ve got a question to ask in return: Are those readers who are getting saturated reading outside the m/m genre? I know I do; If I couldn’t cleanse my mental palate with a little Pratchett or Bujold or Wodehouse, I’d have run screaming from the genre years ago. I don’t think I will ever stop wanting to read gay (or lesbian) romances, and I do prefer happy endings because I can read the news for everything else. But I’m getting more and more selective about which books I will buy.
Hi Lee
It’s good to see you here and thanks to Erastes for sending you the link. It’s been interesting reading all the comments. It seems that many readers feel like I do, but until the authors and publishers are prepared to change their evil ways or until readers rebel, develop a pair and refuse to buy books from certain authors and pubs, there won’t be an appreciable change.
And I suppose we are to blame for this in some respects. By promoting the genre, we’ve attracted people who are quite simply hacks that would write anything they can sell. If you have never run across a story where one of the characters had been given a hasty name change and gender reassignment and been popped back into a hackneyed romance formula plot… I certainly have. (If I never run across another frakking “alpha” male/submissive “beta” again, I’ll be one happy reader.)
These are some of the problems I, too, have with the genre – a lack of imagination and recycling old hackneyed tropes without updating them or the characterizations. Reviewers read many more books than “regular” readers who depend on us to give them honest opinions about the books we read. I suppose we feel an obligation to continue reading poorly written/edited books so that others will know, before they buy, what to expect and what we think they should avoid.
One thing I do find: I am weary of sex scenes that seem to be thrown in because the writer can’t think of anything better to do. Trouble is, though, that’s precisely what many readers DO want.
You’re absolutely right. I did a survey over a year ago and many readers admitted that they loved the sex, so many authors are caught between some publishers who demand more sex and those readers who only buy books that are way up there on the erotic meter.
I’ve got a question to ask in return: Are those readers who are getting saturated reading outside the m/m genre?
I can only speak for myself. I read extensively in other genres because I would go mad if all I read was M/M. I don’t think you will find many readers who read only M/M books who are still sane. 😯
Thanks again for dropping by Lee.
Hi Wave
I’m a bit late to the party but had to leave a comment as this post really struck a chord with me.
I’ve only been reading m/m for about a year but I have to say that at the moment I’m bored with it. I used to read a 2 or 3 books a year but when I discovered m/m when I got my kindle I couldn’t get enough and was reading 2 or 3 books a week.
The idea that I could read any genre I liked with gay MCs was so appealing back then I guess I let a lot slide. However after spending well over a thousand quid on books and only having finished half of them, I’ve had to re-evaluate why I enjoyed this genre so much to begin with and why I don’t now.
I guess it was the novelty that I could read the stories I loved with a protagonist like me but I’ve come to realise that most of the time these aren’t the stories I loved but cheap imitations with gay characters that wanna go all Harlequin Romance on me, drop what they are doing (I like sci-fi/action/fantasy/para etc. so you know there’s usually some big crisis going on) so they can moan and groan and quiver and shiver and come with fireworks and love… it’s so annoying I just skip it and read the dialogue so I don’t miss anything (if you can call “ooh”s “ahh”s and “oh my god”s dialogue…
So I guess I’ve come to the realisation that maybe m/m isn’t what I’m looking for because I want the romance to be a subplot like it is almost every other book I read or film I watch. I want it there, I want it to be between to men and I don’t want it to be doomed but I don’t want it thrown in my face. It should be woven into the story to enhance it… so that it it was missing completely, the story would still be enjoyable and complete.
As for writing sex, if I needed that, I would (and do) watch porn. There can be sexy moments but I don’t wanna know that the guy’s getting a hard-on or read about the sweet pain of that first cock up his arse. I’m not a prude, I could talk about or have sex all day long but I it makes me uncomfortable reading about my heroes getting down and dirty. I want them to have balls on the battlefield not, use them to T-bag their best mate while they’re in the middle of saving the world.
So maybe m/m romance isn’t my thing but where am I to go? Read great action/sci-fi/fantasy/para books where the guy gets the girl? Read grim artsy-fartsy gay novels where everyone’s miserable? Or stick with m/m and spend a fortune until I find that one treasure I’ve been looking for?
Wow! I’ve been ranting but m/m got me back into reading (and I’m grateful for that) but I’m hooked and the dealer who had the good stuff’s left town 🙁
Hello Extremeboi
I feel exactly the same. I think m/m is going through a period I don’t like and the dealer who got me hooked HAS left town. 🙁
It’s funny how similar our tastes are. I never grew up on Harlequin romances and didn’t develop a taste for them. I read a few “Harlequinesque” type books and bodice rippers but soon tired of them because they weren’t to my taste – they smacked of the kinds of stories my mother would enjoy. There’s nothing wrong with Harlequin type stories, it’s just not what I want to read
I like action/adventure, fantasies and mysteries and I hate it when the entire story is about angst and the love affair and there’s so much sex my eyes cross. How many times can you read the same thing over and over, the only difference being the names of the MCs and the locations?
This is what I’m looking for:
When I find these books they can’t keep me away from them because I LOVE to read. Like you, I’m still searching and sometimes I find a gem, but not often recently.
There are lots of excellent writers out there, gay writers and straight, who write the kinds of books you might enjoy. If you like mysteries you could try the Todd Mills Mysteries by R. Zimmerman that won’t set you back a lot of money. 😆 The books are available on Kindle for $0.99 each. Try a couple and see if you like them. I hope you do.
Don’t be a stranger next time. 😀
Hi Wave
Thanks for the welcome back! I just re-read my post at it really did sound ranty. I just downloaded a sample of Closet from Amazon UK and I’ll give it a go based on your rec.
I’ve been thinking about sex in novels and how it never bothered me outside of the romance genre because a) you didn’t know it was coming unless you’d been warned by a review or a friend, b) it was almost always called for and c) almost always well written. It was kind of exciting to wonder will they/won’t they? But now when I see it coming, I dread it. I have a favourites category on my Kindle and I was so fed up with everything else I was reading I went back to some of them and although I love those books, if there was a sex scene, it made me cringe because of just the shear VOULME,/b> of literary sex I’ve exposed myself to… not to mention badly written sex. I definitely need a break from it.
I remember you did that post about hot vs. sweet m/m romances and gave a few recs. I’ll have to go back and choose only those with a heat level zero for now. But knowing my luck I’ve probably read them all!
Ugh… screwed up my tags and couldn’t edit comment. Sorry about the bold.
Here’s an absolute must if you haven’t read any of the books in this series – Cut and Run is the first story released in 2008, and book 4 Divide & Conquer will be released a week Friday. The authors are Abigail Roux and Madeleine Urban and the publisher is Dreamspinner.
If you want to check out the MC’s, we’re interviewing them on the site today (I should say the fans are) 😀 and here’s a link to the interview:
http://tinyurl.com/3qujz6l
My other favourite series that I think you would absolutely love is Dangerous Ground by Josh Lanyon. All the books are reviewed on the site. The last one is Dead Run released in September.
I hope you will check out these recommendations. I have been hooked on these two series since I started reading them both in 2008.
If you want any more recs. email me.
“I thought I just needed a longer rather than a short break from them, but lots of other readers seem to be suffering from the same ailment.”
Sing it sister! Yell it from the roof tops.
I agree.