First the bad news. The market for M/M fiction is glutted. I know. This is not really much of a news flash. We’ve been talking for months about the fact that 
more m/m books are being written and published than readers and reviewers can keep up with. It goes without saying (though I’m going to say it anyway) that there are not enough insatiable fans of m/m fiction to turn every book into a hit. There aren’t even enough fans to turn every release into a moderate success. By now, the vast majority of m/m stories are falling into a vacuum.
And so are a number of publishers. The implosion at Aspen Mountain Press is the latest epic fail, but the last five years have seen a number of e-pubs crash and burn. Glancing over the publisher index at the back of Man Oh Man: Writing M/M Fiction for Kinks & Ca$h, I see that ten out of forty-one publishers are now out of business. Three of the remaining publishers are vanity presses.
Granted, new m/m publishers are springing up all around us, but an unnerving percentage of them seem to fail within one to three years. Start clicking down any online listing of e-publishers. It’s not a pretty picture.
So that’s the bad news, and I know you’re tired of hearing about it. Therefore, I thought maybe we’d do something different this month and focus on what’s right in our little corner of the publishing world. Not in an effort to candycoat hard realities but because, despite the glut, there are a number of legitimate things to feel good about whether you’re an author or a reader of m/m romance fiction.
And I’m going to throw the challenge out to the readers of this blog to contribute their own observations on what’s working and maybe even getting better in m/m romance. Or, as one of my readers at Goodreads put it: What good things are you seeing in the genre these days? New voices, new audience, risks taken, anything? What’s out there to get excited about?
1 – Let’s kick off with the first ever GayRomLit retreat. The conference offered three days of writers, readers, reviewers and publishers hobnobbing and networking in New Orleans. By all accounts a good time was had by all. I wasn’t there, so I’m going to have to rely on those of you who were to fill us in. So what happened at GayRomLit? Was it worth your money? Would you go back again? Share!
2 – Next, Carina Press’s inclusion of m/m romance and gay fiction on their acquisition list. Now I’ve heard people try to spin this a variety of ways, but in my opinion Carina is about as mainstream as an e-pub gets, and making room for same sex romance on their publishing list is an indication that m/m is here to stay. If that isn’t reassuring news, I don’t know what is.
3 – Perhaps one of the most encouraging developments is the ongoing dialog about the importance of professional editing — both content and copy — in a genre that has typically relied on eager amateurs paid for their services with free books. New publishers like Riptide are emphasizing that their releases will be of a comparable quality to mainstream titles.
Given how competitive the m/m genre has become, it seems inevitable that those publishers who can put together the best package for readers — that irresistible combination of quality art, superior writing, and enticing pricing — will thrive.
4 – Speaking of thriving, e-publishers across the board (well, those that didn’t go under from mismanagement) saw record profits this year thanks to the boom in Kindle and Nook and ibooks. According to PW reporting on the July Harris Interactive online survey, 15% of adults in the United States have already purchased an e-reader and another 15% plan to do so within the next six months. Hey, and the holidays are coming.
It gets better: 36% of e-reader users said they read more than they used to, whereas 24% of adults who don’t use digital devices reported that they read less than a year ago. Ebook authors were vindicated with nice, fat, royalty checks, and m/m authors did especially well. Partly because this is a niche genre and we’re not, unlike writers of paranormal or steampunk or mystery or name-your-genre, competing with mainstream authors. And partly because a large segment of “traditional” gay readers who had previously been sticking stubbornly to print format, were gifted last holiday season with electronic devices and thus became aware of thousands of books featuring gay men (and women) enjoying every possible adventure known to genre fiction.
Those readers in particular are slowly but surely going to reshape this genre. How so? Because their buying habits are not the habits of devotees of a sooper-sekret offshoot of niche-niche fiction. Their buying habits mirror mainstream buying habits — because they are mainstream buyers. They do not live online. They do not belong to internet communities or take part in the fun at Goodreads or Bloglandia. They buy e-books exactly as they chose print books — only more of them. They buy books for their train and plane commute and for their holidays in Cancun. Once past the initial astonished delight that there was SO much to choose from, they are returning to these normal buying habits and only investing in those books and those authors that compete favorably with mainstream titles. You see, they take mainstream production values for granted.
Those readers, who number in the millions, will make some of us rich.
5 – Part of how they will make us rich is a mixed blessing, so I’m not sure if this goes under good news or not. For authors, Amazon’s entry into the publishing game — with Barnes and Noble and other 3rd party sites following suit — is good news. For publishers, not so much. As Russell Grandinetti, one of Amazon’s top executives, pointed out in an interview with The New York Times, “The only really necessary people in the publishing process now are the writer and reader. Everyone who stands between those two has both risk and opportunity.”
CreateSpace, Smashwords, and especially Amazon, have given authors the tools to go it alone and thrive. The publishers who survive this paradigm shift will be the publishers who can offer authors something above and beyond business as usual. It remains to be seen how many publishers, used to being chased and courted, will rise to the challenge.
Next year, I’ll be sharing my own adventures in self-publishing on this site.
6 – And one final piece of good news. In August, the Lambda Literary Foundation restored the Lammy guidelines to reflect the organization’s decades old founding mission: to recognize literary merit and significant content relevant to LGBT lives. Period. Though opinion remains divided within the community — and always will — the 2009 decision to restrict the awards to authors who self-identified as LGBT resulted primarily in confusion, division, and the loss of sorely needed revenues at a time when public funding was already at an all time low. Furthermore, the sheer logistics of trying to regulate and police the private lives of authors were both impossible and thankless.
No man is an island entire of itself;
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
No battle for social equality has ever been won without the support and goodwill of a significant portion of the opposing class. M/M may indeed be the red-headed bastard child of gay letters, but it is still part of the family.
So that’s six fairly significant pieces of good news for our genre and our writing community. And they call me a curmudgeon! Let’s open it up to the readers of this blog. Share your observations of positive trends, encouraging signs, and just plain old good news for our genre.
Thanks for this, Josh! Encouraging news.
Happy to brighten your morning, Eric!
Great post, Josh. Thanks.
Hey there, Adara! Nice to see you here.
Thanks for this interesting and thought provoking post!
Here are my :my2cents: as a reader, reviewer (and fledgeling writer): I’m one of those readers who read more than ever before since I’m the proud owner of my hand-extension – my sony. And actually, I like the fact that the m/m market has become so big. The choices are abundant, and I guess there’s something for everyone out there, you only need to find it. (I happened to quite often recently, for which I’m glad). Also, I wasn’t as often disappointed by the books I’ve read lately, even though I, both as a reader and as a reviewer, often go for authors or publishers unknown to me if the blurb intrigues me or my goodreads buddies recommend something.
BTW, this is one of the most positive aspects of our (still quite small)genre to me: the “community” of readers and writers which, from what I’ve heard, came to its fullest beauty at GayRom Lit.(wasn’t there either but I’ll certainly do my very best to go next time!)
I’ve read a lot of thrillers, mystery, fantasy and so on before I discovered m/m, but I never had the opportunity or even the need to discuss those books as vividly as I do m/m. Those books were already talked about to dead everywhere. With m/m it’s different, and in my opinion, better, one of the reasons I stick with the genre.
As a reviewer,I also found that, while the tropes don’t vary THAT much (after all, there’s only so many ways you can tell about two people falling in love with each other), the settings and the surroundings have become more variable.
The protags don’t always have some nondescript office job anymore, and if one protag has a consuming day job, the fact is often used to provide interesting conflicts and valuable plot additions and mot merely for decoration. There are even attempts at changing the abovementioned plot pattern, various publisher’s “nontraditional ending” lines come to mind here.
And, as far as I can tell, editing has, in general, improved (though I, sadly, still often find it lacking) Lastly, as a new writer, I can’t say how grateful I am for the abovementioned community. People leaving reviews or even harsh comments about my work – even if it hurts sometimes – made me see flaws in my own work that were overlooked before. As there is, despite all creative writing classes and writing advice books, no such thing as “writing for dummies 101”, the community is my best teacher. I don’t think something like this would’ve been possible in any other genre, and I’m quite sure I’m not alone with that sentiment.
I’ve read a lot of thrillers, mystery, fantasy and so on before I discovered m/m, but I never had the opportunity or even the need to discuss those books as vividly as I do m/m. Those books were already talked about to dead everywhere. With m/m it’s different, and in my opinion, better, one of the reasons I stick with the genre.
This is a great observation, Feliz, and I think it may get to the heart of m/m’s antecedents — it’s fannish beginnings. One of its strengths is that m/m was a community right from jump street, and I think that does have to do with so many of the original writers coming from fandoms. Not the same fandoms, obviously, but with a fannish mindsent that is welcoming by nature.
Also the point of everyone having a voice here — or being able to be heard — is intriguing.
Excellent post as always, Josh!
Thanks for popping in, Andy!
The most significant change I recognize in myself – as a reader. When this was a new genre to me, I pretty much devoured everything offered. But, as time went by, those mainstream habits you mentioned simply reinstated themselves. I’m no longer tolerant of bad editing, bad story-telling, bad packaging. And, I’m not the only one. It is encouraging that some of the publishers recognized this fact. The polarization between the publishers who are continuing to ride on the current popularity of the genre and simply churn out books on the daily basis and the publishers who take the changes seriously is more pronounced every day. It’s easy to predict which once will disappear from the scene.
The other positive thing is broadening of genre limits, especially thematically. There are even books which could easily find their place in the mainstream, and not only gay fiction mainstream. I can easily see them “discovered” in a few years. It’s an exciting time for all of us, I think. It is rare one can witness an evolution of the genre, any genre.
I’m in total agreement with you on both points, LadyM. The growing pressure on publishers and authors to at least meet minimal mainstream standards (and I know some here will argue that mainstream standards frequently ARE minimal) is a good thing.
I also agree that time is on our side. A number of stories and writers here are getting lost in the flood, but just like with the old pulps back in the 30s, the best writers and the best stories will last — and will continue to find an audience, very possibly an audience that no longer even remembers what “m/m” meant.
Hey Josh
Great post. What am I going to do with all the stock I have in a few epublishers? 😡
Funny you should make that comment because I have a post that’s been sitting for about 2 months, debating that very point (you know how I love controversy and stirring the pot). 😆 I’ll be posting it in two weeks. I hope you will comment because I know you have very definite ideas about this topic.
Great post. What am I going to do with all the stock I have in a few epublishers?
You’re going to cash out and make a killing and move to the Bahamas with your faithful cabana boys.
I think we all aspire to write stories that transcend genre. Mary Renault may have written one of the greatest classics of gay literature, but The Charioteer (and Renault) defies simplistic labeling.
I think we’d all like our work to be first considered literature with some sort of universal relevance and meaning. I think this is the only way we outlast our immediate and genre-specific relevance.
Hey J
Those are some of the things I’m hoping to write about. The Charioteer and books like The Front Runner and Wicked Gentlemen don’t slot easily into genre definitions, yet we’re trying to force fit every book written about two gay men into the M/M mold. Should make for a spirited discussion. 😆
Your site lends itself to spirited – and intelligent — discussion, Wave. I think that’s part of what makes it such a valuable resource to the m/m community. For writers and readers both.
GayRomLit was incredible. We spent four days networking with fans, authors, and publishers in a very friendly, welcoming environment. The organizers did a great job of keeping things running smoothly, and because of the size, it felt intimate. I’m sure as much as people are talking about it, the retreat will explode next year and lose a bit of that intimacy – but I’ll be signing up as soon as the author registration opens.
For a more detailed account – I wrote a blog post about the experience with images from the event: http://www.jpbarnaby.com/?p=232
As to the state of the union, I hate to say that I agree, because I love this genre, but I do. More and more books are ending up on my Did Not Finish (DNF) shelf. Even books or authors that have become wildly popular sometimes end up there because my reading time is very limited and if a book hasn’t caught my attention by the 2nd or 3rd chapter, I put it down and move on.
Everything I’ve heard about GayRomLit has been overwhelmingly positive, JP.
As for the glut of books, I have to agree. I keep a fairly close eye on the genre, but every week brings authors and titles I’ve never heard of. That’s not how it works in most mainstream genres. Now, it does work in mainstream romance a bit like that because there are category romances released each month and those often feature brand new writers, but we’re talking monthly releases versus weekly.
If we think it’s competitive in m/m, try being a het romance author with only an ebook contract. You don’t know what competition is until you’ve been in that flashflood. 😉
Hi I’m a lurker, I came upon the m/m genre by accident and the first few books that I read were horribly edited, the books were good reading but, with the typos it made reading difficult. I find that now the majority of the books I find are better edited. I look for books that have a solid plot not just sex and more sex which I also find in alot of the new authors, plus the books are getting longer which I love. I also found this site by accident which I love I always come here to check reviews before I buy a book and have found tons of new authors and books! keep up the good work.
Thanks for commenting, Janet!
I would just say that every genre in publishing is glutted. That is the nature of the writing business. More people want to make books than want to read them, and this has always been true, and there is more chaff than wheat. The best rise to the top, there is a vast middle, and then there are the ones that vanish, some deservedly some which should not have. The only reason there had not been a glut of m/m fiction in the past is because the genre was new. So, I suppose you could say that being glutted is a good thing– a sign of a mature market rather than of a dying one.
Hmm. Well, I partly agree with that, Laura. While it’s true that the cozy mystery sub-genre, for example, is glutted, the mystery genre as a whole is not. Historical mystery is still not glutted, although many, many authors are aiming to be published in historical mystery.
And mystery itself is not glutted.
Nor is literary gay fiction glutted.
But I do agree that glutting is a sign of a mature market, and I agree that these things are cyclical. In fact, Glutting is Mother Publishing’s way of winnowing out the weaker of the herd.
A glut eventually results in a smaller but stronger genre.
I agree with all the positives you came up with, Josh, and I’m glad of them as a new writer and relatively new reader in the genre. I would add one more – the beginnings of mainstream crossover.
The foremost example of that is Suzanne Brockmann’s romance novels, which moved from straight, through including a parallel gay romance plot, to her purely m/m romance novella this year. I think some of the mainstream writers who have begin introducing more gay romance as side stories in their work are bringing both audience and acceptance to the m/m genre from the mainstream.
Hey there, Kaje.
I think Suze Brockmann’s efforts — though largely unread within m/m fiction proper — are a major stepping stone.
A number of mainstream writers have included positive gay characters for a while now, but Brockmann is the first to put a gay couple front and center. She’s taken plenty of heat about her “agenda” too.
I agree, it’s really encouraging. I love Brockmann’s books; I think the first Jules/Robin book was the first gay romance I ever read. (I got to meet her in June, and she’s really great.) I think we may just see more same-sex relationships in the mainstream very soon.
Yes. And that will be very interesting — to see how mainstream m/m is received by m/m readers as a whole.
I think right now we have a mildly incestuous thing going on within the genre. It’s our little playground, our little club, and we define the rules and the regulations.
So what happens when a big mainstream author with the clout of a big mainstream publisher behind her swans in? Her books will certainly sell to mainstream readers, but will they find a loyal and supportive readership here in the m/m heartland?
Will it matter?
(I’m asking a question — I have no idea what the answer is).
I’ve read (and loved) Brockmann’s Troubleshooters #8, 11 & 12, but those are from a few years ago. What’s the novella from this year?
It’s on Kindle, Jax. http://amzn.to/th8Vz5 When Tony Met Adam.
When Tony met Adam published earlier this year. Follows up characters appearing in earlier books.
I recetly read the novella (listened to it, rather, from Audible) about Jules and Robin’s wedding- very good. I like Suzanne Brockman’s m/m romance stories because they aren’t swamped with sex, but they are deeply romantic.
I loved that book. My interest in her work was waning, but that book perked me right back up. I didn’t realize at the time that it was my interest in het that was waning, really.
I think Suzanne Brockmann is a great example of someone who’s “big enough” that she can write what she wants to some extent, and really push the envelope.
Kaje and Josh, I got into M/M through Suzanne Brockmann’s story line about Robin and Jules too! JR Ward disappointed me when she chickened out with V and Butch, so I went searching for m/m stories that didn’t, and wow, got hooked big time. M/M is pretty much all I read these days on my Kindle.
As a writer, I’m trying much harder to find an interesting storyline and do my best to create a clean copy in the first place (and only add in sex when it’s part of the plot). I’ve eliminated some publishers that I find are careless with editing, unless it’s an author that I love, and then I will suffer through it. I’ve even sent in emails to publishers offering to do things like fix metadata for books and show them the typos I’ve found. (Metadata is growing in importance, authors & publishers!! Especially with software like Calibre).
As a reader, I used to buy everything I could get my hands on (yes, I’ll be working until I’m 95 bagging groceries).
I do find now, however, that I have become much more stringent in the genre of ebooks that I buy — I don’t buy M/F/M or most BDSM stories for instance. I will read the description and look for stories that interest me.
About genres that might go mainstream, I think mysteries is one. Josh’s stories, for instance. Josh, have the Adrien English stories been marketed through mainstream bookstores? Those are perfect examples to me of what should be reaching a broader audience. I’ve been reading Zubro and Stevenson and other mystery writers, all of whom focus on the mystery and not the gay detective aspect, and they’re great.
Great column, Josh, and great discussion!
I missed this comment earlier, but thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts, Jen!
GayRom was a fantastic weekend meeting my crit partners and online friends in person, authors I tried not to go too fangirl on, making new friends… J.P.’s right, it had a very intimate vibe, and impromptu lunches, dinners, or just hanging out on the patio by the pool getting to know folks deepened that feeling. I don’t think anyone came away without a little sleep deprivation. *g* I’m definitely planning to go next year – even ball-parked airfare and hotel already. Big kudos to Ethan & Crew, they did a fantastic job. :bravo:
Ereaders, yes. Since I got mine I’ve steadily read 2-3 books per week minimum. And like others have mentioned, I don’t buy everything that comes out anymore. Though I want to. :yes:
Further to Kaje’s comment, JR Ward is another mainstream author running an M/M subplot through her massively popular Black Dagger Brotherhood series. She as well is planning an upcoming purely M/M novella for that sub story.
On an unrelated note: Wave, the dudes up top are scary and the Halloween icons rock! 😎
That’s one of the great things about a smaller conference — the potential for real connections.
And it is really a lot of fun to put faces to names and to meet in person some of our online friends.
I did a chat recently and I was talking about how I had gone overboard buying $60 worth of ebooks last month, and many of the readers there were laughing at me. Scoffing at the idea of $60.00 being a huge amount of money to spend monthly on books. If that isn’t encouraging, I don’t know what is.
I keep hearing about JR Ward — I think I need to explore further!
I agree with you about Wave’s scary website banner. Zombies have taken over the Jessewave site!
I keep hearing about JR Ward — I think I need to explore further!
Its that sub-story that sent me on a quest to find more stories dedicated to MM. I owe it all to her. 😉
HA. Well, now I know I have to check her out.
L.C. I also was brought over the m/m by J.R. Ward’s work with that lovely sub story…so I would have to credit her for showing me this great new genre. Also Brockmann and her troublshooter series. Definitly worth a look for those of you who haven’t read any of their books 🙂
I really enjoy Brockmann’s books, I agree.
My sister loves JR Ward, I will have to ask about that. Thanks, LC! 🙂
Very, very good points.
I love seeing gay fiction and same-sex romance become less marginalized. There’s no reason it should’ve been put in a corner in the first place.
However, my biggest fear in this publishing environment is that fiction writing will turn into fiction production, and become more a game of promotional stratagems than a matter of craft.
(LOVE the Halloween touches, Wave! :wave: )
That is certainly a consideration, KZ. We’re seeing that now, of course. Mediocre books promoted to star status. But that’s a fact of publishing all across the board.
Promotion matters. No doubt about it.
I do believe that cream rises to the top. But I don’t know that cream rises to the top in its own lifetime. I do know that time does determine the books that matter.
Of course that’s not really comforting to the excellent but utterly unknown writer scrabbling to earn a living. Sure, 60 years from now you may be hailed as an unsung hero in your genre. Meanwhile, you can’t pay the utilities. ;-P
Hi Guys
The credit for the Halloween decor should go to Aunt Lynn and Christian, I only suggested that we needed something !!!!! I will pass on your admiration to them. 😮 :nuts: 🙂 😀
Thank you for appreciating their hard work. :diablogrin:
Are you SURE Aunt Lynn and Christian made these changes voluntarily? I suspect zombies are now running the mothership, and you’re so busy writing your blogs and sipping your pina coladas you haven’t yet noticed!!!!!
Great post as always Josh.
I agree with a lot of the points. I think what needs to be done, as you state is the publishers doing a better job to send books through rigorous editing before putting it out. I also think if more pubs, mainstream or not, make categories gay fiction and not throw them all under erotica it would be a help.
There are a lot of good books out there that aren’t being pubbed enough because they get lost at pubs websites since they are under the wrong umbrellas.
If the company is dedicated to giving their best to their customers then they should break down the gay fiction side as they do hetero. Thats just my opinion.
😀
Oh and Gay Rom Lit was AMAZING! So much fun to meet faces and great authors and hear the readings. I missed the last day due to emergency but what an awesome time!
I think cross referencing will help with a lot of this, Sharita.
Example: Fatal Shadows. Gay? Yes. Erotic? Probably yes as far as the average mystery reader is concerned. Probably not so much as far as the average reader of erotica is concerned. Mystery? Yes. So cross referencing all three will give the book broader exposure and help it find the right readership.
We need to see more cross-referencing. Everyone benefits from it.
Lumping everything with m/m content (meaning two gay men have a romantic relationship) as erotic does no one any favors. But that labeling is a holdover from the early days of m/m’s slashy birth.
More cross-referencing would be an improvement, among other things
it would prevent me from accidentally buying “the next master piece of plotless porn” 🙂
Serious cross-referencing would solve some of the immediate problems for a lot of authors. Everything being lumped under the general GLBT or m/m heading does contribute to the impression that there’s a tidal wave coming towards us.
Hi Nela
“the next masterpiece of plotless porn”
I love this. I hope you will give me permission to use it someday. I will of course give you full credit. 🙂
“the next masterpiece of plotless porn”
I love this line. And it’s odd that while ‘plotless porn’ is out, Ali & I have received comments that there is not enough sex in our stories. There’s romance but more sex is what the reader was after. And to me, throwing in sex for sex’s sake is plotless porn. In many instances would have been out of character as well.
As in any sub-genre of romance, there are a percentage of readers who are just here for the cute guyz and the hawt romance. That’s the way the romance genre rolls.
But there are lots and lots of books for that readership and lots of authors, male and female, happy to cater to that need, so anyone who doesn’t write heavy erotic content should feel comfortable writing what they want to write.
The genre is now large enough that no one should believe that the majority of readers are still here only for the sex scenes.
Publishers forcing writers to add in gratuitous sex scenes in a hope of improving sales are one reason a number of authors are going to take the risk and try self-publishing.
Moving forward, it’s going to be the writers and readers who ultimately shape the genre. Not the publishers.
I fear that this issue of the sexual content of m/m is going to sink us as a genre. Readers love it, sales are driven by it. But honestly, folks, when we sell a book to a reader, we are not contracting with them to provide a satisfying sexual experience. Our relationship with a reader is this- we sell them a story. They read it. When did the obligation for a number of orgasms come into this equation? And I’m not being asinine- a reviewer once wrote that she read a book with her vibrator in her hand and assigned stars, etc… Which nearly sent me off the deep end, as you can imagine. I’m still pissed off about that, years later. If we started out by offering a hot sex scene as a reward for people reading our stories, it’s time for us to grow up and just write a decent damned story! If the word cock appears 57 times in a book of 100 pages, I am seeing too much of that boy’s cock and not enough of his mind and heart. Hopping off soap box.
This comment is from Angie – WordPress thinks she’s spammy and wouldn’t allow her to post. 🙂
Sarah — I agree that writers who don’t want to stick in extra sex with duct tape shouldn’t have to. I don’t — I only include sex when it fits the story — and yes, sometimes I get negative comments because of it. One recent reviewer seemed rather becroggled because of the “low sensuality” in my book, and I got the impression that I lost a point or so because of it. Oh well.
There are readers and writers both who enjoy sexfests, and that’s fine. But those of us who don’t enjoy sex just for the sake of sex need to stand up and refuse to add more sex with duct tape just because readers or reviewers or our publishers want it. One of the reasons I’m with Torquere is because their heat rating goes all the way down to “none,” and that gives me the freedom to write whatever sex the current story seems to need. If that’s 1.5 sex scenes in a 73K word novel, then that’s what it is. The novel I’m working on now is looking to end up longer, and will probably only have one. That’s how it goes, and I’m not going to let the Hot!Hot!HOT! trend in m/m force me to write more. [shrug]
It’d help if readers (and reviewers) who appreciate books where there’s only as much sex as fits smoothly into the story, whether that’s a lot or a little or none at all, let the publishers know that they like that and will spend money for it.
Angie
Angie
I’m one of those readers who is turned off by too much sex when it’s clear that the intent is to make the story almost like porn. I reviewed a book a week ago where I mentioned that it was just sex, no plot, but I’m sure the author didn’t care since the book is a probably big seller.
I don’t think the publishers care, neither do some of the authors, because the books that are sex fests are usually the ones that are on the best seller lists. When the authors get their royalty cheques and notice that the hot books sell more than the mild ones they ramp up the sex to a level 5 in their future offerings.
This is from Angie again. That spam filter really hates her and Josh. LOL
Wave — I know that’s true in many cases, but I hear from writers who don’t like the demand for constant sex, and readers who don’t like it, and reviewers like you who don’t like it. It seems there has to be a significant market for books where there’s only as much sex as the story calls for.
One of the problems, I think, is that the genre itself markets the sex as its primary characteristic. Someone wandering in for the first time would probably look around at how the vast majority of the publishers and authors are marketing their product and assume that it IS all about the sex.
I’m going to tell a story out of school here, because it’s very relevant. My publisher used to do a thing on their Yahoo list once a week, where they declared it Sexy Snippets day and invited authors to post sexy chunks from their books. This went on for a while, and I suggested to the person who acted as host of the list that they might do funny snippets sometimes, or scary snippets, or dramatic snippets, or whatever, to showcase some other kinds of great scenes. “Great idea!” the host said. The following week, it was Funny Sexy Snippets day. [sound of head hitting desk multiple times] And from then on the sexy snippet calling always had some other theme as well, until they stopped doing it all together. Because, apparently, they were institutionally so fixated on the sex that they literally couldn’t hear (or read) an idea that had no sex in it. And this is a publisher whose heat rating goes all the way down to none. [sigh]
The Hot!Hot!HOT! is what gets marketed more than anything else. I’m curious as to how many potential readers have wandered in, seen all the “Hot Sex Yay!” marketing and commentary, and turned around and left because that’s not what they’re into, not knowing that there are books in this genre they’d enjoy. IOW, the assumption that heat sells, and therefore the trend of marketing primarily the heat, is self-perpetuating. THAT’S what we’re fighting against, here, and it’s going to take a huge build-up of contra opinion to even be heard.
Angie
I’ve tried to reply twice and I keep getting eaten by the spam filter too. So I’ll limit my response to this: it depends on the bestseller list. As of this morning I had 8 titles on Amazon’s G&L bestseller list, 3 on Samhain’s Gay Contemporary list, etc. I usually hit the #1 slot at most of my publishers.
So I think it’s possible to succeed — even thrive — without drenching your story in salsa.
I think spam just ate me too, so what sarah black said basically 🙂
Hopping off soap box.
Well, my last comment was eaten as spam, so let me try again.
I think this old attitude is changing, Sarah. Sex sells, yes. But other things sell equally well, and I think publishers are noticing.
The change is being driven by writers, yes, but also by readers who expect more than perhaps they originally did when they discovered the genre?
Anyway, I think it’s a positive sign that writers like you and I, who don’t exactly write the torrid stuff, have found such loyal readers here.
I wish my non-sexy titles did anything like as well as the sexy ones…
Permission granted 🙂
I think it comes just as much from vendors like Fictionwise not wanting to offend the pearl-clutching segment of their audience. Notice that Fictionwise puts inter-racial and “international” (that is, anything where the characters aren’t white) romances under “Erotica” as well. I doubt very much that Fictionwise executives are aware of m/m’s slashy history, but I’m very sure they are aware that some large chunk of whitebread America would go all flaily if they found such things on their nice, clean (and white) romance shelves. It’s all smut so far as they’re concerned, no matter how much or little sex might actually be in the file.
Angie
It’s not just m/m epub. My friend who was published with a new mainstream small romance press has been noticing some desperate scrabbling as well. Her book was picked up because it was so different from the usual, but she’s being compelled to re-write the sequels to be more ‘marketable’. They were expecting instant success… and reality is biting them on the butt.
This is the same crunch that’s been affecting the mainstream fantasy market for over a decade. They’re just in a quiet despair over it ;p And soldiering on.
Style may triumph over substance in the short term. But not for the long haul.
Great post, Josh.
Three of the remaining publishers are vanity presses.
Since I bought your book on writing. My question is who are those remaining vanity presses?
iUniverse, Xlibris, and one other — I don’t have the book in front of me — but it does mention that its self-publishing in the index.
Great post, Josh. 🙂 Glad you managed to avoid the “kids these days should get off my lawn” post, as Charming requested. I thought it was very positive.
But who’s going to get rich? That’s what I really want to know.
I think the writers who can produce steadily but at a very high quality will build name brand recognition (which inspires brand loyalty). This piece has to be done through publishers and publishing houses, in my opinion. (Not everyone agrees on that point.)
But once that’s achieved, the next move would be for these authors to take advantage of the new publishing paradigm and begin to publish their own work — making sure not to sacrifice quality in any aspect.
This is the direction publishing is going. I believe we’re going to see a lot more highly successful boutique and self-publishing in the next few years.
I think the people who are first to take advantage of this new dynamic will be the ones to benefit the most financially.
A lot of new and aspiring writers will read that and panic and instantly try to publish a flood of not-ready-for-prime-time material and thereby knock themselves out of the running.
I agree with that — especially the authors who will publish “not ready for prime time” work. That’s what worries me, actually. I think when you begin self-publishing, you have to start out with the stronget possible piece, with the best cover and editing you can get. You’ll want to be seen as one of the authors who may be self-publishing, but who puts out quality and is worth spending money on. Because there will always, always be the people who self-publish poorly-edited, poorly-plotted stuff.
(BTW, I’m talking about the theoretical you, not you, since we both know I got some of my views on this from, well, you.) 😀
Whew! 😀
I think anyone considering self-publishing would do themselves a favor to check out the Kindle boards and some of these blogs on the topic. Readers are pretty adamant about quality. Even above and beyond a low price. In fact, so many inexpensive crap books have helped make the case for a fairly priced book — which I confess was something I was feeling pretty disheartened about a few months ago.
I think you’re doing this right. You’re in a good position Josh. Blaze the trail and others will follow.
Meanwhile, I’ll be drinking my margarita and waiting for you to report back. :whistle:
Thanks, Anne. I swing between paralyzed fright and manic confidence. 😀
Style may triumph over substance in the short term. But not for the long haul.
True. The only thing that triumphs for the long haul is a well-written story with universal relevance. The author has something original or meaningful to say, and he (or she) tells it in a meaningful or memorable way.
You may resent your high school lit teachers for making you read Moby Dick, but you cannot deny that story is one of a kind. As is Old Man and the Sea. Sure, common themes and a big fish figures in both, but two very different and equally remarkable stories.
Can a story about gay characters have universal relevance when most of the world is heterosexual? Of course it can. Because the struggle for identity and acceptance and — yes — love, is a universal one.
Despite the healthy size and vigor of m/m fiction, we’re still operating in a fairly insular environment. So it’s easy to place too much importance on what’s happening in the immediate circle and forget about the fact that there are larger ramifications for everything we write.
Word (:
🙂
I’ll add to the pile of people praising GayRomLit—I had such a great time there, and I did actually get to talk books with some readers (with my reader hat on; I’m sure a great many authors also read the genre a lot, too, myself included) and it’s interesting how a few books kept coming up as ones we all loved. I suspect that, even with the glut, the great books—through word of mouth, be it in person or on the internet—will start to rise to the top and get more attention. (That’s certainly happening already, via bloggers and Goodreads discussions, etc. etc. I mean, I read reviewer blogs fairly regularly for recommendations on what to read next. And then, like Josh, I go on crazy book-buying binges, as I may or may not have done earlier this week. :whistle:)
Anyway, I think the genre has some growing pains and we’ll sort out the kinks (ha!) soon enough. It’s fascinating to watch the publishing industry evolve in the wake of ebooks finally taking over a substantial market share (or fascinating to me, anyway). And hopefully this means that a lot more great books will be published in the future.
Anyway, I think the genre has some growing pains and we’ll sort out the kinks (ha!) soon enough. It’s fascinating to watch the publishing industry evolve in the wake of ebooks finally taking over a substantial market share (or fascinating to me, anyway). And hopefully this means that a lot more great books will be published in the future.
If there’s one thing a history in publishing teaches us, it’s that everything is cyclical.
So we’re about to enter into a period where the very relevancy of publishers is questioned. But after a couple of years of mass self-publishing, publishers will come back to the table with revised expectations and some very alluring options for authors — promotion and marketing, career management, translations, stuff they (and we) haven’t thought of yet — and authors will start rethinking the viability of going it alone.
While I had a super blast at GRL, will I go next year? I’m not certain. A large part of the appeal this year was the location. They are going to have to convince me that next year’s location has something to offer me. Sure the event is why we are there, but I’m not going to spend mega-bucks to fly to another city and spend all of my time in a hotel. We’ll see. However I did enjoy myself this year.
Definitely a continuing need for editorial skills, even things like copy editing as much as story editing (which I’m sure many could benefit from as well). But nothing worse than really obvious typos, name switches, etc. which should be caught. Glad to hear some publishers are hearing the message.
Yay for e-books. I rarely buy a paper book anymore. In large part because of price. I can get two e-books for the price of one paperback. Especially as I can’t run to my local library and find a bazillion books in my genre of choice. I could probably find … zero maybe? Some people still prefer book in hand but if you have a book budget (a thing with which I am completely unfamiliar), who wouldn’t want to buy 2 books rather than one? Well, hardcore readers do.
Is there a glut? Maybe, I don’t know. Walk into any large bookstore and the choice is overwhelming. So I have a feeling if I read m/f romance I’d feel the same.
Is there a glut? Maybe, I don’t know. Walk into any large bookstore and the choice is overwhelming. So I have a feeling if I read m/f romance I’d feel the same.
Is it? Most bookstores carrry fairly reduced stock these days, and that stock is shelved according to genre and sometimes sub-genre.
Which is the direction I think m/m needs to go. More cross-cataloging and the elimination of “erotica” as synonymous with “M/M.”
More cross-cataloging and the elimination of “erotica” as synonymous with “M/M.”
I completely agree with what you said about categorization. Some of my stories are more sweet and I flinch a bit when they go into the erotica heading because if they were m/f they never would’ve been in that section.
I think that’s the key, Amber. If the story were heterosexual and would not be cataloged as erotica, then it doesn’t shouldn’t be catagorized as such in m/m.
Amber — mine too. [nod] My novel only has 1.5 sex scenes in it, and nothing is particularly kinky or unusual, but it’s under Erotica at Fictionwise and ARe. I find this infuriating, but all I could do was add a “not erotica” tag to the ARe entry, for all the good that’ll do.
The clear impression in both cases is that they’re putting all m/m under “Erotica” so that the conservative pearl-clutching segment of their audience won’t come across anything with That Nasty Gay Stuff while they peruse the romances, and be offended. Personally, I don’t care whether bigots are offended, and it offends me to have books with no sex at all stuck on the Erotica shelf just to protect bigots from seeing two men holding hands on a book cover.
Angie
I should have commented that I had a few people ask me in New Orleans what group we were with (because we were all running around with big yellow name tags around our neck). I usually said gay romance because m/m sounds sort of like “eminem” and it sounds like romance between chocolate candies or some kind of weird Slim Shady slash. No one freaked out. LOL An older couple just kind of nodded intrigued and there was a long conversation in a bar with a memeber of the US military who thought DADT was stupid (he was straight and married with kids) and asked how the authors in m/m were dealing with it now that it had changed. So I think there are people out there open to it, we just have to get up and testify! Umm, okay. Stepping down.
As well, Josephine Myles posted on her blog about a seminar she, Charlie Cochrane and Stevie Woods did at a main stream m/f conference in the UK and the turn-out for their session was as good as any other and no one in the audience had experience with the genre. So while many of us read in the closet for good reason (depending on job security or other issues), I think it also behooves readers to spread the word, even if you only feel comfortable discussing books that are not as explicit at first. No one wants it crammed down their throats, but I’m as guilty as others in some situations of saying the last book I read is Agatha Christie rather than the reality, and I have no excuse for hiding except my own perception of a possible negative reaction. I can’t bitch no one is reading m/m if I don’t even tell them it exists sometimes.
You are so right, Tam. I’m not sure I have the guts to come out of my reading closet, but I will try.
I think it also behooves readers to spread the word, even if you only feel comfortable discussing books that are not as explicit at first. No one wants it crammed down their throats, but I’m as guilty as others in some situations of saying the last book I read is Agatha Christie rather than the reality, and I have no excuse for hiding except my own perception of a possible negative reaction. I can’t bitch no one is reading m/m if I don’t even tell them it exists sometimes.
What a great point. There is no better way to "normalize" the perception of m/m fiction than allowing the world at large to see that "normal" people read it.
You can't have it both ways. You can't complain about the lack of mainstream acceptance (and all the benefits that go with that acceptance) while sticking fiercely to your own private ghetto.
I usually said gay romance because m/m sounds sort of like “eminem” and it sounds like romance between chocolate candies or some kind of weird Slim Shady slash.
I have a strong need to start emceeing about the real Slim Shady, real Slim Shady… :DX:
Great post and info…since I am fairly new to this genre, it’s interesting to see how far and fast the m/m market has come in a relatively short amount of time. Also, wanted to let you know I am a huge fan of your work…have a wonderful time off and can’t wait for more to come 🙂
Thank you, Christy. That’s lovely to hear. I do plan on making the most of every minute of my time off. 😀
Hi Josh,
What a great post and you made some really good points to think over. I love MM Books but I have to admit I just don’t have a lot of free time due to my demanding day job, family and my own writing. Yet there a few MM authors I habitually buy be it ebook or print. It’s hard to keep track of all the new books coming out and frankly I can’t stalk the web in seeing what is out. I just don’t have the time. 😀
I plan to go to Gayromlit next year. I can not wait to connect with my favorite authors and network. 🙂
Dawn, one of the best aspects of any conference is the opportunity to network, and that opportunity is best when conferences are still small.
Plus it’s always fun to hang out with writers and talk and eat and talk about the stuff no one else really can begin to understand.
Very interesting, as usual, Josh. Your posts always make me think about things I take for granted.
That a mainstream publisher like Carina has a m/m line is exciting, but IMO Carina also is a prime example of publisher short-sightedness and arrogance. They want me to spend my money there, but then expect me to fight with various programs to convert the file so that I can actually read the book I have purchased! Snowball in Hell is the last book I bought there, and it was a nightmare. (Not the story – I loved it immoderately – just the process.)
And there is no doubt that I read much more since I discovered m/m romance two years ago. I am careful not to keep track of how much money I actually spend 😮 but I read voraciously when I was just reading mainstream – I can’t imagine how you would describe my reading habits now.
Though it would have been smarter for them to keep the pdf format as well (or even introduce other formats), at least Carina’s epubs are drm free (like with most m/m publishers) and relatively easy to convert.
Amazon’s format, on the other hand is a nightmare to convert, because you can only do it illegally, because of the drm. So far I’ve not attempted it, because it’s just too much hassle, and, not to forget, illegal. So, ebooks I buy at Amazon, I’m forced to read on my computer, which was never my intention.
IMO Carina also is a prime example of publisher short-sightedness and arrogance. They want me to spend my money there, but then expect me to fight with various programs to convert the file so that I can actually read the book I have purchased!
Unfortunately that is the perception. I know that wasn’t/isn’t Carina’s intent, and I know that the epub is definitely turning out to be the basic format, but it probably was a little soon to force readers to make that jump.
So glad you enjoyed Snowball though!
I fear Carina will lose a lot of customers due to the one format. If I am going to pay money I should be able to get a format I can use. ePub is not one of them.
The motto is ‘the customer is always right’ and I think Carina will have to add more format options or lose customers.
One of the most difficult things for any business to judge are sales lost because the right product is not available.
Most decisions are based on the product that *is* selling, so sometimes there’s a very skewed picture of what is successful.
And there are always other variables. If Carina’s m/m Christmas anthology doesn’t do as well this year, is that because PDF wasn’t available? Or is it because readers didn’t like this lineup of authors as much or the stories weren’t as strong or the advertising didnt’ reach the right audience?
I agree, there are a ton of variables. However, how much would it cost the publisher to give a few more format options? By adding more options they are also showing the customer that their issues are being heard and taken seriously. A result that could possibly give them more customers.
😕 😈 😛
I’m with you on that point, Andy. I think you always want to give the customer options.
Josh
I would bet that there are more people reading on their Kindle now than those who use ePub.
The basic format for most readers and publishers except Amazon is still PDF but Carina doesn’t supply that format unless I request it. They do supply other formats including Mobi/PRC which is the Kindle format. I have no idea how to reformat an ePub file and have no intention of learning, even if the book is free for review purposes.
My suggestion is if any of you buy a book from Carina and it’s only available for download in ePub, demand another format – they do have them but they are just trying to force us to use their format of choice – ePub.
It is incredibly easy to convert an epub to a mobi using the free software: Calibre. I’ve had to do it with all my old epubs since getting a Kindle. You can convert a whole group of files with one click.
Still not sure why Carina think putting another step in a book’s journey from their site to my ereader is a good thing, though…
Jo
The thing is, I don’t want to have to convert my files. If I buy a book from Amazon, which is a re-seller, it’s downloaded directly to my Kindle. I want a choice when I buy a book from a publisher.
If I want to read PDF books on my Kindle I forward them to Amazon and they convert them FREE and send them directly to my Kindle through their Whispernet. They don’t convert ePub, Microsoft Reader or other formats, except for Word files.
I should not be required to convert a book that I bought from Carina from ePub to another format in order to read it. When I buy a book from Amazon it’s for my Kindle so I know which format I’m getting. Amazon also has a desktop app that allows me to read Kindle format books on my computer if I want to.
Carina is a publisher and it should make its books available to purchasers in different formats – it’s not a reseller like Amazon.
I know. I’ll do the conversion because it’s the only way to read Carina’s books when I want them, but I can see why it would put you off review copies.
It seems like a rather short-sighted strategy, although the next generation of kindles may well support epub (we can only hope)
I already commented above, but isn’t Amazon doing the same thing? Worse even, because they drm their books, meaning I can’t legally convert it and therefore are forcing me to read them on my computer.
Or are you saying that we should all just conform to Amazon standards?
I think the thing that makes it less obvious (and therefore odious) when Amazon does this is the availability of the downloadable custom Kindle app. It works for most people, because they have a device other than the computer that they can download the app to. Unless you have a nook or another propriety ereader (I forget what you have, Blaine), you can find a way to read it that isn’t a huge convenience. And if it is a huge inconvenience? Most people start bitching at their proprietary ereader rather than Amazon.
Amazon is devious… :evilgrin:
Since the topic of formats came up, I just wanted to give a little shout out to Weightless Books for their excellent customer service.
My old Sony Reader was upgraded to read ePubs so that’s what I buy, but I don’t like how they look on my Reader. The text is too small & fine and there’s no extra spacing between paragraphs. Instead, I convert them to RTF, adjust them & then put them on my Reader. This works great 99% of the time but every so often I get an ePub that won’t format right in RTF.
I had accumulated the first 8 parts of Ginn Hale’s Rifter serial & when I went to convert them, only 2 of the 8 worked correctly. Now, technically, there was nothing wrong with these files, they just wouldn’t have been an ideal reading experience for me on my old SONY (bought in 2006).
I emailed them about it, they got back to me in less than 24 hrs and they redid the ePubs for me!
That really is top notch customer service!
I hear you on the knick knacks and games. On the one hand, I appreciate the adaptability of bookstores — I still enjoy walking into a bookstore.
I guess maybe my disillusion is with the choice of knick knacks and games. Maybe different games and knick knacks would appeal to me more. 😉
Less picture frames and scented candles, more stationery? 😀
Now you’re talking. 😉
I hate the legos they’ve added to BN. My youngest used to go straight to the books and pick out a story now he wants to get legos since he has to pass them to get to the kids book section. 😮
Lots of things to be happy about there! It is still so easy to get published in this genre, and I firmly believe that’s simply because this genre still exists mainly in epub land, where the publishers can take risks print publishers wouldn’t be able to.
I’m sure it will filter through to the mainstream eventually, and some of the authors will break through there. But even those who don’t, yet have a loyal fanbase online, shouldn’t have anything to complain about.
It’s always been difficult to make a living as an author. In many ways we’ve had it easy here so far. A reality check wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing…
And yes, as Tam mentioned, it was good to put in an appearance at a predominantly het romance festival. Charlie Cochrane, Stevie Carroll and I were all made to feel very welcome. I hope we’ve managed to persuade a few more readers over to our side!
Hi Jo
I think part of the problem is that it’s TOO easy to be published in this genre. Some publishers don’t seem to care about editing, formatting or even if there’s a plot. As long as they think it will make money it’s published, and there’s no pity for the unwary buyer.
Also, don’t forget that if these books are novel length many of them usually end up being published in print. When buyers are disappointed they crap on all M/M books, not just the one really bad book.
Nela said she doesn’t want to buy “the next masterpiece of plotless porn.”
Neither do we, which is why I complain at every opportunity about the quality and content of the books that are being mass produced and fed to us readers by what seems to be uncaring publishers. Not all of them, but enough to matter.
I think that you guys did a great service for your fellow M/M writers by going to a het festival. Let’s hope that a few minds are open to reading books in this genre.
Hi Wave – I realise the way I phrased that made me sound like I thought ease of publication was a purely positive thing. I agree that this can (and often does) result in work that isn’t ready being published.
More to the point, many readers will pick up the latest piece of plotless porn and quite rightly think “I could do better than this!”. Six months later, their own novel may well be published by the same publisher. This might be a brilliant work of fiction, but it’s likely to have all sorts of problems if that person has never written fiction before. Whatever happened to the concept of practice making perfect?!
We have a DIY mentality in m/m because many of us began reading and writing fanfic. This is all well and good when the audience understands this, but a wider mainstream audience will not be as tolerant of cliche-ridden work and poor editing.
I agree that many M/M writers may have started in fanfic and therefore they may have carried forward that mentality to this genre. However there is one major difference: M/M books are not free, they are marketed and sold to unwary buyers. Readers forgive a lot of things when something is free but it’s different when we have to pay for someone’s botched writing attempt.
So true. It makes me angry every time I pay money for a poorly edited ebook. Fortunately (thanks to sites like yours), it doesn’t happen very often these days.
Yes! There’s another good thing to be happy about. The fact that m/m authors and publishers are still taking chances, still pushing envelopes. Yes, a lot of the same tropes keep turning up, but I’m constantly surprised at the new ideas and new spins that also keep turning up.
Great post. It seems that gay characters have always been there in the mainstream for either comic relief or to introduce danger due to homophobia and such. But lately I have been surprised how many of my books in the general romance and especially paranormal genres have gay characters in positive ways. So I can’t help but think that the concept is slowly becoming more mainstream though gay characters aren’t allowed to do much but look at each other and kiss…yet 🙂 Until that happens, and I doubt it will be soon, the m/m genre is needed.
When I first fell into m/m several years ago, I read whatever I could in print and I loved it because it was so new and fun to me. I did not hold m/m authors to the same standard I hold my mainstream authors. I finally read some good books by good authors and realized that m/m can be written really well with great plots too and I didn’t need to settle for poor quality stuff. So I started getting stingier with my choices.
For those like me with limited budgets, it’s become very hard to decide where to spend my book pennies. I tend to stick to known authors where I am fairly certain I will get a good story. So I know it isn’t easy for authors to reach people like me. I’ve checked out Riptide, Dreamspinner, LooseID, and several other publishers, but there is so much there that I don’t know where to start or where to send my pennies since I haven’t heard of many of the authors. Is it a glut? Maybe, it does seem a little more difficult to sort through all the options, I can say that.
For those like me with limited budgets, it’s become very hard to decide where to spend my book pennies. I tend to stick to known authors where I am fairly certain I will get a good story. So I know it isn’t easy for authors to reach people like me. I’ve checked out Riptide, Dreamspinner, LooseID, and several other publishers, but there is so much there that I don’t know where to start or where to send my pennies since I haven’t heard of many of the authors. Is it a glut? Maybe, it does seem a little more difficult to sort through all the options, I can say that.
Sure. Reading is up in some sectors, but this is also a time of economic crisis. I don’t know too many people who can afford to spend without thought. We all want a bargain, but it’s not a bargain if the item is ultimately valueless.
Great post, Josh. You brought up quite a few of the things my own writer’s group have been discussing.
I absolutely agree when you said,”…the direction I think m/m needs to go. More cross-cataloging and the elimination of “erotica” as synonymous with “M/M.”
I have been talking about this genre all over the place, mostly because when I am excited about something I have a hard time shutting up. What I have found most detrimental in my own efforts to sway new readers into giving this genre a try has been this idea that it’s all “erotica.”
On the one hand, there is always the talk about sex selling, and of course, I know there are those out there after the hot stuff. Let me be clear, also, that I certainly do NOT mean to sound like I am against good erotica by any means, because I read it and write it. Having said that, there are just as many readers out there looking for other things, too. So, I think you are absolutely right that lumping everything into one M/M label is not helping win over more readers, since the way to deal with some of the glut, it seems to me, is to get outside the community already established and attract more readers.
On the one hand, there is always the talk about sex selling, and of course, I know there are those out there after the hot stuff. Let me be clear, also, that I certainly do NOT mean to sound like I am against good erotica by any means, because I read it and write it. Having said that, there are just as many readers out there looking for other things, too. So, I think you are absolutely right that lumping everything into one M/M label is not helping win over more readers, since the way to deal with some of the glut, it seems to me, is to get outside the community already established and attract more readers.
Sure! I have very few stories that don’t have some sort of scene of intimacy. But I think labeling my stuff “erotica” would be considered false advertising for those looking for a scorching hot read.
There’s nothing wrong with erotica. But if the first and foremost label on a book is erotica, it does definitely send out a specific message to the prospective reader — and I think that message is less and less accurate for m/m fiction as a whole.
With the closing of Borders stores here it was a huge sign that epublishing was here to stay. I love my kindle, I have grown to love m/m fiction. I am not a conference goer–probably never will be but I do enjoy being invited in on sites like these to share my opinion, a laugh and occasionally a story or two. Thank you Wave et al for making this a welcoming site.
I NEVER read m/m before 9 months ago–I literally stumbled upon it with the passing of a dear, dear gay friend–I stumbled upon 2 books–one of yours Josh and The Frontrunner by Patricia Nells Warren. After I read both I realized I HAD read m/m–Mary Renault–whom I love. That got me started, and I haven’t stopped since. Editing can be abysmal, story lines can be trivial, sex can be hot but truly overdone BUT the genre–well, the genre touches the masses–namely, we heteros who have gay friends but have never lived the lifestyle–there are MILLIONS of us–that number is growing daily and we like this genre. Every time I read about this genre making another stride toward mainstream I give a silent cheer–there are several authors who not only deserve to be read by the masses but SHOULD be read by the masses–if only to further understanding and tolerance in the world at large. Perhaps the most important generation that will and should be affected by this is my/our children–there is an entire world opening up YA gay fiction–more and more writers coming into the fold–how important is that? Vital–it’s vital that our young adults see themselves and their lives in a more positive and accepting light.
So, I’m not sure if I added anything to this post and these comments except perhaps to say that we cannot at this time really understand the phenomenon of this genre and it’s increasing popularity but I hope that it spurs us on not to simply pump out more, market more, to willy-nilly dive in but rather calls us to produce better quality stories–stories that resonate the truth of this way of living
Perhaps the most important generation that will and should be affected by this is my/our children–there is an entire world opening up YA gay fiction–more and more writers coming into the fold–how important is that? Vital–it’s vital that our young adults see themselves and their lives in a more positive and accepting light.
I saw a poll the other day illustrating how much more open and tolerant to the idea of gay marriage and gay relationships people under 20 are today versus even ten years ago. There truly is a shift in attitude, and it’s absolutely one for the best. And if part of that shift is due to some kooky gay cowboy story originally based on a certain well-known movie, then it may be that the ultimate good outweighs all the spelling errors and gaps in logic in the world.
I come into contact most often with m/m stuff written by and for women. I’m not sure what the existence of that sub-genre says about authors and readers, but suspect the stories bear as much relationship to The Real Thing as Walt Disney does to the Mona Lisa. Whatever; if writers and readers enjoy it, why not?
My question is – what about m/m written by and for men? Is it an active market? Is it very different? What male-oriented m/m erotica do you recommend?
I come into contact most often with m/m stuff written by and for women. I’m not sure what the existence of that sub-genre says about authors and readers, but suspect the stories bear as much relationship to The Real Thing as Walt Disney does to the Mona Lisa. Whatever; if writers and readers enjoy it, why not?
Does anyone actually read heterosexual romance novels for realistic information on how to build a satisfying relationship? Or read murder mysteries in order to train as a cop? 😀
My question is – what about m/m written by and for men? Is it an active market? Is it very different? What male-oriented m/m erotica do you recommend?
As all m/m is not erotica, I guess I’d want to know what sub-genre you’re interested in reading? Mystery? Adventure? SF? Fantasy? Men write in all these genres. Some write sappy, silly unrealistic stuff and some more recognizably reality-based fiction. But then the same is true of women writers in the genre.
If you do really want plain old erotica written by men, I can certainly suggest a list of the classics starting with Lars Eighner. I know others will jump in here with their own suggestions.
I love the idea of subcategorizing m/m. That may help the glut a bit. Obviously not all m/m stories are erotica, though perhaps the genre started out that way. I can think of two stories I read a while back. Both from a m/m publisher. One was m/m erotica, the other clearly not erotica and more of a fiction where the main character deals with the loss of his partner and opening himself to a new relationship. I wouldn’t have even called it romance. However, they were tagged the exact same way. As m/m writers are expanding their offering, it certainly isn’t helpful to readers to see them all painted with the same m/m brush.
It especially isn’t helpful in attracting new readers who have heard positive things but then see a book classified as genteel porn (which I think is how a lot of people translate “erotica”).
As a non-American, I find the idea of an ‘interracial’ genre very strange and worrying. Please tell me this is not code for ‘our blonde white daughters being ravished by black men with enormous tonkers’.
Did you actually say this?
Thanks Wave, and there isn’t even the excuse of a language barrier 🙁
Sorry – but no-one is describing ‘interracial’ as a genre for me. Certainly doesn’t exist over here.
Relating to, involving, or representing different races: interracial fellowship; an interracial neighborhood.
Since we’re discussing m/m fiction, it would deal with two men of different races attempting to build a relationship challenged by different cultural backgrounds and experiences.
What Josh said. Also, because of the US’s racial issues, “Interracial” specifically means that one character is white and the other is not. A romance between, say, an Asian and a Latino wouldn’t be considered Interracial by most publishers’ definition, although of course it should. On Fictionwise, the “International” romances covers stories where both (all three, however many) people are not white, whether they’re the same or different races.
Because this is the USA, and white is special. [cough]
Angie
While racial consciousness exists everywhere, I guess it does not carry the same sexual overtones in other countries. The idea of an interracial genre… very strange. Why would anyone be interested?
Two girls, two guys, or more, or any mixture – fine. I can adapt to that readily. I just have a blind spot about what the race of the participants adds to the mix, except for pleasing contrasts in the souvenir photos, of course.
Historically there’s the lure of the exotic, from back when people of color were othered more openly than they are now. It was also transgressive — interracial sexual relationships used to be illegal under anti-miscegenation laws. It was only in the… sixties, I think, that it became legal for mixed race couples to marry, although again, it was the mixing of white with non-white that was particularly a problem.
Of course, white men had been forcing their attentions on black women since colonial days. Most African Americans have at least some white in their background, and usually not by their female ancestors’ choice.
Nowadays, there’s as much, “Look, we’re doing this, get over it” in interracial romances as anything exotic or transgressive. (Although you wouldn’t know that by how it’s presented in certain places.) There are still people who find mixed race relationships distasteful, but as with GLBT romances, interracial romances are a way of normalizing that kind of relationship in our culture, by showing it in entertainment often enough that people get used to it. Or at least so that the next generation grows up with it as part of the normal scenery. And also as with GLBT romances, the fact that they are segregated into their own genre shows that we have a ways to go yet.
Angie
I think what the original commenter (J. George) doesn’t understand is that this is a global economy and these books are sold all over the world. Our world population is now at 7B and the countries with the largest populations are China and India. These countries’ are considered “ethnic”; other countries that are principally non-white overwhelmingly form the majority of the world population.
Many of the people who read these books want to see themselves represented in them. Being “ethnic” myself I want to read about all races and cultures as well as other diverse groups; I still love to read about the romances of twenty something Caucasians but not exclusively.
Here’s a link to a post on this site compiled by the readers which lists M/M books with diverse protagonists (which includes those she objected to – “interracial”.) Perhaps Ms George does not realize that there are diverse books that cover a wide range of protagonists. This list is just the tip of the iceberg because I’m sure we only covered a small proportion of these books:
http://tinyurl.com/62u62rx
BTW as far as I know these books are not about
‘our blonde white daughters being ravished by black men with enormous tonkers’
It’s unfortunate that J. George feels the way she does and perhaps she needs to be sensitized to others who live in our world. M/M has books on diverse MCs such as older couples, protagonists who have religious differences, ethnically diverse couples, MCs with disabilities, etc. Would she suggest that M/M books should only be about able bodied young white males and ignore the rest of the world population? If she checks out the maps on this site and the Visitor Widget, we have visitors from almost 180 countries. These same people buy M/M books and I’m sure that has not escaped the attention of the publishers’ marketing departments.
BTW Ms George, I visited Oz a few years ago and none of the people I met or stayed with showed attitudes that are similar to yours, for which I am most appreciative.
Dear Wave, I am afraid you have mis-read me entirely. The reason for my original comment is that I am afraid there is still an undercurrent of racism in the States. I believe ‘interracial’ is not an interesting genre in Oz because no-one gets too excited about the colour of their partner here. I expect the same would be true in, say, India or UK.
I have always been staunchly against racism of any sort, and it upsets me to see a genre that apparently panders to old-fashioned prejudices. I may be wrong in thinking this – if so, please enlighten me.
I went to bed last night and missed this strange little exchange.
Jacqueline, of course Australian film and literature reflects interracial themes. Any time you have an indigenous people displaced by white settlers, you will have art reflecting the clash of culture. Enlighten yourself and do a google search.
Australia’s history is not devoid of racial conflict. Again, just do a quick Google search of “racial conflict in Australia.”
Secondly, a romance novel requires plot and plot requires conflict. An obvious source of conflict in any relationship has to do with the different backgrounds of the characters, so how exploring these differences through the eyes of love could be perceived as racial bias, I fail to see.
Quite the opposite, I should think.
There is no “interracial” genre, per se. Classifying books under different diverse categories I believe was done by publishers in response to readers’ comments. Like me, many readers of all ethnicities were concerned that a large percentage of their books had predominantly one type of protagonist – twenty something, good looking, white males with 8 packs – which show a lack of imagination and creativity if nothing else.
Writing books about diverse characters is also a matter of being inclusive. Many readers want to read about characters like themselves and these books have moved beyond what they were 8 years ago when TQ entered the M/M market. Now we have books about all types of MCs and I and other readers appreciate that, because if nothing else it’s a tip of the hat to the fact that the world is made up of all types of people, including the disabled and older MCs. In addition this is an easy source of conflict in the romance when different cultures or physical health needs meet head on in an intimate situation, or one involving disapproving family members or churches etc.
In Canada there are thousands of interracial couples and we think nothing of it because to us each couple is just two people in love. This attitude might be different in some parts of the US like the south because of its history, however I’m sure that even there things are slowly changing.
So to summarize, I think that M/M writers and publishers see a need for diverse characters, including those that form an interracial relationship.
A lot of these books are written by US writers and they try to show how their country has moved from the days where minorities and other diverse groups were automatically discriminated against.
I hope this helps.
Exactly, Wave. And for all the objections leveled at m/m fiction — appropriation of culture, exploitation, etc. — one of the positives is its fearless attempt to explore genuinely difficult and sensitive romantic equations.
I don’t say that it’s always done well, but the fact that it is done at all, is something to applaud. These are themes and sub-genres that are often avoided in commercial fiction. M/M is an intriguing hybrid in that it is both commercial and (attempts to be) socially relevant — even cutting edge in some of its explorations.
Does m/m have a learning curve? You bet. But there are things to be proud of here and to celebrate. And the conscious effort at cultural and racial diversity (though sometimes awkward and misguided) is still more of an attempt than we typically see in mainstream commercial fiction.
Just as a data point, my interpretation of Ms. George’s original post on this subject was more along the lines of, “Wait, they’re not fetishizing their racist crap, are the??” I didn’t get that she said the bit you quoted above with any kind of straight face, but rather with distaste for the idea that there was a whole subgenre based on, well, a pile of racist crap.
The fact that interracial romances are marketed as different and transgressive reflects the racist roots of interracial porn and such, but m/m authors don’t approach it that way, and are actually working counter to the old patterns. I think she gets that now. All she wanted, though, was to be reassured that the whole interracial romance thing wasn’t blatantly racist in how it focused on the fact of two people of different races having sex.
Angie
I think we all got that. 😀
The mention of bodice rippers or whatever you call the Mandingo school of romance during a discussion of gay romance was out of left field, that’s all.
I don’t think anyone’s upset? Just perhaps not as patient as usual.
[Replying to myself because it won’t let me reply to Josh below]
In all seriousness, I don’t think Wave got that. Her indignation suggests otherwise, and I’d just as soon not see someone get that aimed at them over a misunderstanding.
Angie
Hi Angie
I was taken aback by Ms George’s comment because it was so surreal, which is why I repeated what she said, and her explanation wasn’t any different. BTW I’m not the only person who made assumptions based on that comment.
Well, you’re right, Angie. I shouldn’t try to speak for Wave. And it is a sensitive topic.
Wave — maybe I’m the one misinterpreting then, but I got a distinctive feel of “Wait, WTF?” from that comment. 🙂
Angie
Thank you, Angie, for hitting the nail exactly on the head with ” not fetishizing their racist crap”. I wish I had found the words to put it so succinctly.
Anyone who imagines ‘interracial’ is a sexually neutral term might like to check Literotica. There ‘interracial’ is listed as another category of porn/erotica, along with BDSM, exhibitionism, incest etc. Not a comfortable idea.
I’m part of an inter-racial family as an adult. It’s been an eye-opener for me. It came as a surprise to me that one of the things I find most annoying is when people pretend they are blind to it when I know they aren’t. The people who are truly blind are few and far between. The people who I appreciate the most are the people who recognize and accept the differences, even celebrate them.
I grew up (and strangely I still am) white in a very white community. But now I look at my daughter and I think of all the ways she’s going to be affected by this and I wonder. I don’t know what it is I wonder, exactly, but I do.
The people who I appreciate the most are the people who recognize and accept the differences, even celebrate them.
It’s also nonsensical — and even dangerous — to pretend that bias doesn’t exist. Of course it still exists. And I think when we fail to address these issues, as in pretend such awful things could never happen in our happy rainbow-colored world — we set young and impressionable readers up for a hard fall.
Not that I’m suggesting children should be reading adult content stories, but we all reach that point where we’re technically adult but still very young and inexperienced.
One of the things I’m grateful for is that my own family is a veritable United Nations, comprised of probably most cultures and races under the sun, and we discuss these topics all the time, without killing each other. 😮 Being here is just like sitting down at the dinner table at home. 😆
Of course racism and prejudice exist, but if you talk about controversial topics and explain your point of view and face controversy head on, at least it’s out in the open and you know the other person’s position. At least that’s how I try to live my life which is not how a lot of people do it, but what the hell – I can’t change now it’s too much effort and way too late. 🙂
Hi Angie
I thought that all books with different races were considered interracial. It doesn’t matter if the characters are Latino and Muslim rather than white and Latino. At least that’s how we classified “interracial” on the Diverse book list that’s on the site. In my book, if it’s two different races then it’s interracial whether or not one of the characters is white. Hey I could be wrong because I often am wrong. 😎
You’re technically correct, Wave. (And I’m glad that’s the way you classify it on the site.) But Angie is also correct in that publishers traditionally only counted white + other = interracial.
I’m happy to say I think this is changing as we come comfortable with diversification.
Wave — I agree that that’s how it should be, and classifying books that way here is a good way of helping that definition spread. That’s not how a lot of publishers or vendors define it, though.
It’s more about what the people selling books think they can market than about what makes sense, or about a larger definition. Look at “Inspirational” romances; you’d think that any book where the characters were religious and where some religious faith was emphasized as a good thing to strive for would qualify as inspirational, but that’s not the case. In publishing land, an inspirational romance is very specifically targetted at evangelical Christian readers, and only evangelical Christian religion and its beliefs and values can be presented in an inspirational book. A book that’s inspirational to Buddhists doesn’t count, or even Catholics.
Interracial is marketed the same way; not to all mixes of race, but rather to people who want to read about a white person and a person of color. On the one hand, it lets readers who want to read about different kinds of match-ups find books that are outside the mainstream, and on the other hand, it lets people who find the idea of a white person and a person of color getting together offensive avoid them. :/ There are certain kinds of people I personally don’t mind offending [cough] but from the publisher’s POV, they make more money by letting everyone avoid the stuff that would offend them.
Click on the “Erotica” tab on Fictionwise’s sidebar, and check out all the subgenres filed under there. Everything in there is offensive to some group of readers that Fictionwise doesn’t want to offend, and it’s not all about smutty sex. It’s about not driving people with money away from your product because they saw something that sent them into a tizzy.
Angie
I understand what you and Josh are saying about how publishers classify books from a marketing perspective. What I tried to do with the Diverse list was give each race equal weight when we classified interracial books – maybe because I came at it from the perspective of someone who was “ethnic” and didn’t see any race as being predominant. I was doing this strictly from the readers’ perspective since so many had written me emails to ask about interracial books.
Some pubs even use an incorrect designation of “multicultural” which means something entirely different but sounds politically correct. Since I live in a multicultural country (Canada) I am very aware of the differences which I pointed out to one publisher (Loose Id). However, I’m not a marketing guru for a publisher so I had my reader’s hat on when I categorized the list. :).
Some pubs even use an incorrect designation of “multicultural” which means something entirely different but sounds politically correct.
Very true, LOL! My mom is Italian and my dad is Welsh, so that’s a multicultural relationship. That’s not what the publishers mean by it, though, so…. [sigh]
Angie
Oh I will be repeating the points that commenters already brought up, but hey the more the merrier. I think that for me the best thing is that my favorite authors still write books and that no matter what I discovered three or four new writers this year that had become an autobuy for me. There is no significant change in me as a reader, really, while I was a bit more tolerant when I just started reading mm (original works, not Harry Potter slash that I had been reading for years before 2007), I still wanted good editing, great characters and story. Wicked Gentlemen set the initial bar for me and when I was not able to find the books that were as good as that one for few months I was annoyed, but then it really did get somewhat better in a sense I found out that there are authors who write well despite many publishers doing crappy work and publishing anything under the moon. I guess another good change for me is that I can see that some publishers appear who tend to care about the product they put on the market and I hope it will continue and improve upon.
I love that mm spreads out in subgenres, I really do not need all mm to be romance, I want mm mysteries, mm fantasies, scifi, which are not just window dressings for romances, but scifi, fantasy with love story in the background. There are books like this, but not nearly enough if you ask me. I love romances too of course, but I have very eclectic tastes 🙂
So yeah, there are some good things happening for sure, thanks for the great post.
That’s always reassuring to hear, Sirius. Thanks for commenting!
I think if mainstream authors begin to tackle m/m pairings, more people will become intrigued by books featuring m/m pairings and they might hunt more books to read. Since mainstream books haven’t got large enough titles to satisfy some readers’ craving, eventually they will stumble on this genre and our niche genre will become bigger.
At least I hope so. 😀
Btw, Wave, I LOVE the grinning pumpkin, banner, and the smilies. I especially love the pumpkin though. It looks like an evil overlord of all the pumpkins. 😮
It does work like that sometimes, Cleon.
Cleon
Aunt Lynn and Christian who are the artistic and creative purveyors of good taste on the site (they don’t let me near any of their stuff) 😯 are the ones who came up with all the different critters. I’m glad you enjoy their attempt at being scary. 😎
Great post Josh. Here are the top three positive trends I’ve seen in the past year…
1. As many people have testified – the GRL conference was tons of fun. I had a blast chatting up authors and follow fans. Having an annual conference lends legitimacy to an industry, so I hope this one takes root.
2. Amazon started letting people loan out Kindle books this year. I’m part of the Kindle Lending group on Goodreads and I’ve had several people who are not part of the M/M Romance group contact me to try a book and ended up becoming fans of the genre.
3. Retailers (like Amazon) started offering some “free” m/m titles each month. Again, I’ve met people who have sampled books this way and have become fans. I truly believe m/m romance would hit the mainstream if more people just knew it existed.
Thanks for pointing those last two out, Diane — those are great!
Great post, Josh.
I too am one of those who have bought more books since having an ereader.
I think I bought more ebooks last year than I bought in my life time, so far. (Of course I was a major library fan in my teens, so I didn’t buy that many books to begin with)
I think the inclusion of short stories and novellas in the ebook industry is a positive thing.
Yes, I love to read novels, but short stories you can read when you have little time, make it so appealing to buy them.
As for the market being glutted … as a newbie writer, I’d rather hope it’s not. But with some publishers now focussing more on quality, the market will probably be all right.
We’re in some sort of transition, and time will tell.
As for subgenres of m/m.
I’ve always seen gay romantic fantasy, mystery etc, as subgenres of romance, fantasy and mystery etc, instead of them being subgenres of m/m … but that’s probably just me.
Yes. M/M is a sub-genre of romance fiction. So the categories within M/M (be they military or interracial or historical or all of the above at once) would be sub-sub-genres.
Just as noir is sub-genre of hard-boiled which is a sub-genre of crime/mystery which is a genre within fiction.
See, this is one of the topics I will be discussing in my blog post. It’s a chicken and egg – which came first? 😕
I think the inclusion of short stories and novellas in the ebook industry is a positive thing.
Great one, Blaine. It’s true that this format is seeing a comeback, and for those of us who love to read and write short stories and novellas, it is absolutely good news.
Publishing in general is glutted. It’s very easy for anyone to set up their own publishing company. Sadly, many are clueless about what it takes to put out a good book. They go into this business seeing dollar signs only.
Another thing to keep in mind is that even some of the more established e presses aren’t so great either when it comes to their editing. I can think of one that’s mainly MM with high sales that’s downright terrible when it comes to it.
Yep. Very true, Preston.
This is really an interesting post.
Here’s another thing to be happy about: Yaoi-Con is still going strong 11 years down the road. Now I realize that yaoi is a niche of a niche of a crossover niche, related to m/m but not exactly the same,but there’s still fans to be found and books to be enjoyed there. Also, I think I heard that they’re moving it from the Bay Area to someplace near Los Angeles so that means that those of us who attend can experience the selection of Marriotts and Sheratons and Hyatts located in the greater Los Angeles area, now that we have sampled the delights of San Mateo, Burlingame and Millbrae. 🙂
That’s a good one for sure!
And Lord knows, you haven’t lived till you’ve experienced the delights of a Los Angeles Marriot. ;-P
Repeating what Josh said above-
“And for all the objections leveled at m/m fiction — appropriation of culture, exploitation, etc. — one of the positives is its fearless attempt to explore genuinely difficult and sensitive romantic equations.
I don’t say that it’s always done well, but the fact that it is done at all, is something to applaud. These are themes and sub-genres that are often avoided in commercial fiction. M/M is an intriguing hybrid in that it is both commercial and (attempts to be) socially relevant — even cutting edge in some of its explorations.
Does m/m have a learning curve? You bet. But there are things to be proud of here and to celebrate. And the conscious effort at cultural and racial diversity (though sometimes awkward and misguided) is still more of an attempt than we typically see in mainstream commercial fiction.”
This is exactly what keeps me coming back to this genre and the indie product!
Thanks for voicing what I couldn’t.
I’m sure there are scholarly papers out there on how fiction helps people integrate new concepts into their lives. Our increasing pluralistic society is wonderful and challeging at the same time.
Even here on the site we are having an international discussion from our homes- no traveling required. This may seem like a tangent but the indie markets open up a huge market for the reader and the author alike. A lot of energy is generated from this. I find this very positive and exciting. It keeps me coming back for more.
Even here on the site we are having an international discussion from our homes- no traveling required. This may seem like a tangent but the indie markets open up a huge market for the reader and the author alike. A lot of energy is generated from this. I find this very positive and exciting. It keeps me coming back for more.
I don’t think we’ve ever had a conversation on this blog that didn’t diverge into some really fascinating other topics!
I’m trying to figure out why that is. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Is it you? You assured me that this post would be a piece of cake and now look where it landed. Damn!! There are too many international visitors here – I have to figure out a way to change that. Not really – I love the wonderful discussions we have and the topics that all of the posts generate (especially yours, because mine are easy peasy and no one takes offense at them) 😎
I love the wonderful discussions we have and the topics that all of the posts generate (especially yours, because mine are easy peasy and no one takes offense at them)
Why yes. That’s exactly what I hear all the time. People are always saying, “That Wave is wonderful. If only she wasn’t so darned shy about offering her opinions!”
😛
WHAT ON EARTH IS THAT EMOTICON SUPPOSED TO BE?????
Christian has turned into a mad scientist!!
You only now realized that he’s a mad scientist? 😡 😈 I have to deal with this every day, but he does make my life like this :diablogrin: when I’m feeling down.
It’s a bur wielding a chainsaw. (I think they’re plentiful in the New Jersey Pine Barrens.) Sheesh. When was the last time you went camping, city boy?
🙂
I think my eyes are going. ;-P
I really have to work on the “opinions” thing. It’s not my best character trait — but I’m working on it, I swear. 🙂
I’m so late to this discussion. Blerg. No one is probably reading it now lol.
I’m starting on my journey to self-publishing just because of the crap that’s been churned out from so many e-publishers. At one time I thought I’d submit to them, but the last five books I’ve bought are DNF and these were heavily starred books – “best sellers”.
I’m incredibly worried that my story doesn’t have enough sex to make it. Not only am I in a small niche (m/m market), my story is a police procedural/suspense novel genre. Top that off with self-publishing and a whopping three sex scenes in 120k words (none of which are penetrative ahem) and yeah… I’m anxious.
I’m going to chronicle my whole foray into self-publishing and we’ll see how it goes. But it’s taken me a year to get this novel ready and I have no idea how many edits. The process is slow slow slow. Heh.
I just want to add that I LIKE sex in novels, just not gratuitous sex. I’ve felt for some time that the m/m publishers are just putting out erotica with no plot and then labeling it “romance”. There is a difference. Maybe we’re at a new crossroads. I sure hope so. I’d love to see some real progress and better writing in the m/m genre.
Here’s hoping!
Also HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Dani, as one of the bestselling authors in the genre — and someone who writes very few (and never gratuitous) sex scenes — I can say that it is possible to be VERY successful and not pander to the lowest denominator.
And I publish — and continue to publish — with three of the top epubs out there.
This is not to discourage self-publishing — I’m taking that route myself (for different reasons) — but simply to once and for all squelch the notion that the best epubs OR the majority of readers are insisting on high erotic content.
A book will sink or swim for many reasons, but I don’t believe that high erotic content is a single determining factor with anything but a minority of readers. And success is never built on a minority of readers.
Josh, I agree that it’s possible, especially considering you are one of my favorite authors and one of the reasons I decided to write the kind of novel I wanted to, and not one that catered to the ‘erotic’ nature of m/m.
I don’t think anything is wrong with that category. I love erotic stories. I even plan on writing a few – later, when the stories roaming my head are published/written. But the problem, for me, is that so many e-publishers are putting erotic stories right next to true romances (or even mysteries/genre stories like yours). And likewise, they’re holding erotic stories up as romances. Is a story that consists of 12 sex scenes and maybe ten pages between those of “plot” really a romance novel? oO
The last four novels I bought from two certain publishers have all been like that. Not to mention the typos/malapropisms/plot holes/continuity issues that came with it. If I wasn’t reading on my kindle, I’d have thrown it across the room.
When I read a romance I expect something like Pricks and Pragmatism. That story is so good. I can’t recommend it to enough people. Or even The Christmas Throwaway (while littered with typos/continuity issues, too, it still was a true romance).
I want control over where my novel fits in. It’s definitely a romance. There’s no question there. But it also is heavily police procedural and suspense. To the point that I researched with police officers and even doctors.
And, lastly, I wanted control over my novel cover (such a silly reason to self-publish haha), but – hey, I have this image of my characters and what my story is about and it took months to find the right ones.
PS: I will miss your story-telling. I can’t wait for how you manage self-publishing. 😀