The very touchy topic of cheating has been discussed on this site a few times because so many romance readers abhor the very idea of cheating, regardless of the circumstances, and the opinions have ranged from no cheating to ….. absolutely no cheating. 🙂 So this post by L.A. Witt is very timely not only in light of her upcoming release Where There’s Smoke, but also as it relates to hundreds of other books you all hate because one or both of the MCs have cheated on their partner(s).
Here’s L.A. Witt’s perspective and she would like to hear from you AFTER you have read her essay:
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The issue of cheating in romance novels has been discussed here before, but after talking with Marie Sexton about the issue a few times lately, I
wanted to approach it from a slightly different angle. Specifically, when is it cheating? I’m quite curious how readers feel about this, so I want to put it out there for people to discuss.
I think we can all agree that if one person tells another, “I’m with you and only you,” and then they sleep with someone else, that’s cheating. Pretty safe bet. But… after that, it gets a little gray. If two guys hook up for a one night stand, and then hook up again, is it cheating if one of them goes off and sleeps with someone else? After all, they haven’t established a relationship, right?
This is also where real-world and romance novel rules might not completely jive. After all, when we pick up a romance novel, we know the main characters will end up together eventually. So do we necessarily want to see them, for better or worse, hooking up with someone else between the beginning and the happily ever after? There’s a (Written? Unwritten? Set in stone?) rule in romance that once the characters meet, that’s it. No hooking up with anyone else. But… does that work for every story? Is there wiggle room, a gray area, times when characters should be given a pass? And if they do hook up with someone else, is the author breaking a rule of the genre, or is the character cheating?
In Marie’s book, Between Sinners and Saints, Levi is fairly promiscuous before he meets Jaime, and he continues to be even after they meet (while they’re still just friends). In my book, Rules of Engagement, Dustin sleeps with someone else after he and Brandon break up. Matt and Jared from Marie’s Promises both have sex with other people during the course of the book, but not after committing to being monogamous with each other. Obviously in the real world these wouldn’t be considered cheating since there isn’t (or is no longer) an established relationship. But do the same rules apply within the confines of a romance novel?
Then, of course, there’s the touchy issue of adultery. Technically, sex outside of marriage is adultery. Period. But then you have open marriages, swingers, sham marriages, things like that. If a spouse sleeps with someone else, it’s defined as adultery, but is it always cheating? For example, if it’s done with the other spouse’s knowledge and consent?
This is a timely question for me. In my upcoming release, Where There’s Smoke, Jesse is married, but the marriage exists on paper only. Jesse and Simone publicly portray themselves as a happy couple for the purpose of furthering Jesse’s political career, but they’re both miserable. And lonely. When Jesse meets Anthony, Simone practically shoves them together. Adultery? Yes. Cheating? Myself, I don’t believe it is, but I’m curious how readers feel about this sort of thing.
So, readers, sound off! 😀 How do you feel about characters hooking up with other people after meeting the one with whom they will eventually get their HEA? Is it cheating if those characters haven’t declared themselves monogamous? If they’ve split up, even temporarily? If the characters are married, regardless of the state of the marriage? Is cheating about getting into bed or otherwise involved with someone else, or is it about lies and deceit? And do the rules and definitions apply differently to characters than they would in real life?
Where do you draw the line?
L.A. Witt Contact Information
email: thethinker42@gmail.com
website: http://www.loriawitt.com
twitter: GallagherWitt
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It just seems to work in some books that once they meet, they don’t have sexual relations with anyone but each other, even if they don’t officially get together until later. But in other books, that’s totally irrelevant and until you are dating and maybe even lay it on the table “I want us to be exclusive” it’s not cheating in my eyes.
It would seem odd that a one night stand leaves a guy mooning around for months before they hook up permanently. Why wouldn’t he keep dating? And if the character has a reputation as a Good Time Charlie (not that there’s anything wrong with that) it would be even more weird and out of character.
So I personally don’t have an issue with it at all, the one for me that’s annoying (not necessarily a deal breaker) is the lying. I figure if you’d say “I’m going next door to have sex with the neighbor honey” and he says “Have fun.” It’s not cheating. If you say “I’m going to buy milk” then run to the neighbor to have sex? No-no.
Oh, marriage break-down (even if not divorced yet), break-ups (even if temporary) are all fair game. As long as it fits the character, I’m fine with it. I think my real-life rules are the same as the ones I would want to see in fiction.
I would not considered the situation in ‘Where There’s Smoke’ cheating.
Compare to what happened in A.J.’s Angel that’s was definitely cheating.
Fair enough. (And to clarify for those not familiar with the title — the cheating in A.J.’s Angel happened PRIOR to the story, and was the reason the two protagonists had split up a few years earlier. There’s no cheating in the story itself.)
Part of the beauty of romance novels is the illusion of a perfect love… intense, loyal, forgiving, and unconditional. If there is cheating, there must be a renewed commitment and a resolve for change by both partners before the ending. No one wants to identify with a doomat or have a rat bastard be the hero of the novel. However we all like to believe that even the “bad boy” can find true love and become the perfect lover.
I guess I have to declare myself right at the start of this as a reader who really doesn’t care if two characters cheat in any way shape or form along the way to their happy ending – as long as there IS a HEA or just a HFN at the climax!
In fact when written well it can add a huge amount to the development of a character and their relationships throughout a book, make them a little more realistic to me and give them something worth overcoming.
However, I understand that many readers can’t abide cheating (even in fiction).
I know that some of my favourite m/m reads don’t go over well with a lot of other readers simply because of their cheating content, whether with other men (i.e. Chris Owen’s Bareback) or other women (for instance Nothing Ever Happens by Sue Brown).
Personally, for me ‘cheating’ is defined by lies and deceit. An agreement between two characters to an open relationship, whatever the situation, to me is NOT cheating. Neither are any hook-ups that happen along the way before a couple have declared themselves as such exclusively.
However I might feel about cheating between fictional characters, believe me, I’m far less tolerant in real life. And for me there is a huge difference.
In a book the author can take me through each of the characters thoughts and feelings surrounding the cheating. I know without a doubt their views and feelings. How or if they can condone their actions. Whether or not they are truly remorseful, or have learnt something from the experience. I can choose whether or not I forgive them based on this intimate knowledge.
In real life unfortunately, we will never get to see with that amount of surety into the thoughts of another human being. There will always be an element of doubt, which can kill any relationship.
I guess I’m the converse to many readers, in that I’m much more forgiving of fictional cheating. Even though I might understand that many readers prefer their favourite characters to remain on a pedestal, as examples of how ‘Twu Wuv’ should be – I don’t care how down and dirty the road to that HEA gets.
I am also one of the readers that does not care whether one of the characters cheats or not, therefore for me it does not really matter which situations are considered cheating and which are not. I mean as anything else, I want the issue of cheating to be dealt with in depth and well written, but I want everything in the stories to be well written. Hmmm, I guess for me it is cheating when couple is in the permanent relationship and relationship is not open and they sleep with somebody outside.
Oh, I guess there is one issue connected with cheating which I dont like no matter what. I hate when the partner or spouse who is being cheated upon made to be a villain, period, no matter how well written it is. I mean, it is one thing when the guy escapes from abusive relationship, I guess I will not even consider that chearing, just saving his sanity and sometimes life. But when writer starts making up multiple justifications and make it other person’s fault, I hate that. Yes, usually when relationship is not working, both parties contribute to that, but when one decides to cheat, that’s his responsibility and his responsibility only in my view, he decided to do that instead of either leaving the other side or attempting to work further on their relationship. I am fine with examining his rationale and reasons for it and for the cheater getting his HEA too, if well written, etc, but make him take responsibility for that as far as I am concerned.
“”But when writer starts making up multiple justifications and make it other person’s fault, I hate that.””
Yeah, I agree with that. If a character is going to cheat, I want them to at least OWN IT.
I supposed this is one of the reason that I got frustrated with ‘Bareback’ by Chris Owen.
Cheat happens and it was because both the MCs are tight-lipped non-communication sort of men.
Thanks to everyone who’s commented so far! It’s always interesting to hear the different takes on a subject like this.
L. A.
I promise that this is my last post before I am out of the door :). I also want to say that I have read some great stories in this genre portraying open relationships and that of course this is not a cheating situation for me at all.
I’m another that doesn’t have an issue with cheating as long as the context is there. In fact, I got really irritated with the fans of a certain popular m/m series when they claimed the well-loved MC was cheating because, when kissed unexpectedly by his best friend after coming out to him, he kissed back for a moment even though he was in a serious relationship. REALLY?!
Same with the character in another book that was called a cheater by readers when his partner not only gave him the go ahead to have sex with someone else, but the other characters had issues with it and the situation was part of the plot and explained – repeatedly.
I know that there are a lot of men that are just as monogamous and faithful as the day is long, but in general when two men are in a relationship, they both have the male attitude about sex – it’s just sex. Wanting to get naked with someone is different than loving someone. ESPECIALLY before a relationship has formally commenced.
Not to say I wouldn’t have a big fat cow if my guy just randomly had sex with someone for the hell of it, but in fiction if the context is there, I really don’t get the problem.
“I know that there are a lot of men that are just as monogamous and faithful as the day is long, but in general when two men are in a relationship, they both have the male attitude about sex – it’s just sex. Wanting to get naked with someone is different than loving someone.”
This is actually something a male buddy of mine has been trying to say, but the women refuse to listen, hehe. In general, men and women have different ideas of what sex means.
#Might be spoilers in here for Faith & Fidelity, Errors & Omissions, and Loving Jacob.#
Wave knows my feelings on this. I dislike cheaters in any context, but to me there are degrees of cheating. Make sense?
For example, I am reading Lee Brazil’s Loving Jacob and the main character is married with a child, but he’s sleeping with another guy on the side and has been cheating on the wife with men for a number of years. That’s cheating and I pretty much have no empathy for that character…so much so that I am having a hard time finishing the book.
On the other hand, in Tere Michaels’ Faith & Fidelity (one of my favorite books), the main character goes off for a one night stand with another guy after he and the main love interest broke up. That’s not cheating. Does it cause issues when the pair gets back together? Yes. But I could forgive the guy…he was lonely and questioning his sexuality so he went off and had a one nighter to confirm what he already knew…he was gay. Like Ross and Rachel from Friends, they “were on a break,” so not really cheating. 🙂
Third example, Errors and Omissions. Main character is married, but separated from his wife. The love interest (Austin) is married to another man, but kisses the other guy. Is that cheating? Only on the married gay guy’s part. Since the other main character is legally separated, he’s not cheating. But Austin is cheating on his husband, so again no sympathy for him. Especially when he claims the husband is the “love of his life.” My question would be, then why are you kissing some other guy when your hot, devoted husband is at home waiting for you? *g*
So for me it is a question of degrees.
I agree, it’s a question of degrees. Definitely depends on the specific relationship, what kind of “cheating” occurred, etc.
I am also pretty open about the idea of “cheating” in my reading. As others have said, the lying is sort of the defining line for me. Guys who have not developed a full on exclusive relationship can date other people and that doesn’t bug me. The exception is when it gets so drawn out that we don’t end up seeing our heroes together enough to establish their relationship.
I can even handle what I would consider “real” cheating (lying and keeping it a secret from your partner when you all are in a committed relationship) if there is some payoff at the end in terms of building or strengthening a relationship between the MCs.
LA I think you are right about the idea of why people hold romance to a higher standard than real life. In reality, one date doesn’t make a committed relationship and people often continue to date others in the meantime before things get serious. But in romance, we know who is supposed to end up with whom and some people don’t like any detours.
In most of the scenarios presented in L.A.’s post and in the comments, I don’t really consider them “cheating.” If the characters are not in an exclusive relationship yet or have agreed to a non-monogamous relationship then I don;t have a problem with it. (I grew up watching soap operas so my opinions on the subject are pretty lax, LOL) IN FICTION. Real life situations of cheating I consider very differently. However, fiction is entertainment and a place you go to experience non-real life situations.
I can think of a few times when I have cringed and been disappointed when a character “cheated,” though again it wasn’t really cheating. Because the characters weren’t together. BUT in each incident the characters had already established a “fated, intense, you are my world” kind of love but at the time, couldn’t be together. (didn’t know where the other was) So even though they weren’t together, they already had such a strong bond established it felt like cheating.
I am one who hates cheating. Since I have expierienced rat bastards myself, I have no interest in reading about it. It’s the feelings that get to me. If a character is hurt by the cheating, then I am hurt. It puts me in a place I don’t want to experience again. Especially if the writer is good. I read Bareback without knowing about the cheating. The writer was so good, I experienced it with the main character.
I can read about open relationships without damaging my Kindle but I prefer not to. They are the ones lingering at the bottom of my TBR pile. If the other partner in a relationship is fine with the other having sex with others, then it really isn’t a relationship in my opinion and therefore not cheating. No feelings are involved.
I agree that there is a difference for me with cheating in RL vs Fiction. I loved Chris Owen’s Bareback, she sold me completely on the breakdown and subsequent recommitment between the MCs. And I do think that that’s more easily done in fiction, where we can see inside the MCs heads, know what they are thinking, and where we also know that they are “meant to be together in the end.” No such certainties in RL.
But, because reading romance is my escapist entertainment, I like to know beforehand if the story I’m about to read is going to include cheating. And I take the narrow view of cheating–where it’s lying to your partner. (Having other people before the MCs are committed/become a couple doesn’t count for me.) There are times, though, where I just want to read an angst-free love story, so I do think a romance that’s going to take serious detours before the HEA/HFN needs to alert readers to that going in.
Cheating is breaking a promise, explicit or implied, to be faithful. I don’t consider cheating to be a deal breaker, but there had better be a damn good reason for the cheating. (“He was hot and I wanted him” is Not a good reason.)
For me to believe a HEA, the reason for the cheating needs to be addressed. And if I don’t believe that the cheating will never happen again, that’s a deal breaker.
As a fervent contemporary romance reader, I never understood why two people who went on a few dates are considered ‘exclusive’. It’s not how the RL works, and as much as I love the fantasy component in romance, I like some semblance of reality…
Also, when two people are taking a break – they are on a break – which means in my mind – they are separated until further notice. You can’t possibly expect fidelity on something that’s no longer ‘there’. For me personally, until the two characters reconcile, or until they declare that they are ‘omg, one and only for each other till the end of life and beyond!!’ they are entitled to see and be intimate with others.
So it’s complicated. There’s a plot I love to see explored but it never does – what about those who start off casually and then realize they’re the ‘one’ to each other? It’s clearly not cheating to me, and I think it’s absurdly romantic…
In short, I think the concept of cheating is defined and clear-cut – it’s a less to do with the sex and the physical mechanics of one’s body, but more about deceiving your partner/bf/husband.
For example – I think emotional cheating is even worse – the character doesn’t do anything with the third person – but he ends up falling in love… To me, that’s cheating.. worse than the physical aspect of sex.
Thanks for this interesting topic – I hope that m/m writers can delve into other aspects instead of going the true and tried methods of m/f traditional romance.
I haven’t posted in a long time but thought I’d share my thoughts. I agree with most others that sleeping with someone else before a relationship is established or having an open relationship does not count as cheating. I’m totally liberal-minded IRL about how others live their lives. To each their own.
Having said this, reading about the MCs sleeping with anyone other than their “one true love” turns my stomach. Theirs is the relationship I’m rooting for and anything more than a brief mention of past relationships makes me uncomfortable. I almost want them to be virgins (although I realise this is ridiculous unless YA) because everything else that came before should almost seem like it didn’t happen because it was so meaningless compared to the love they have found now.
I know all this sounds preposterous because everyone has a past but I read romance for the romance – not the sex. I want it to be a fantasy that isn’t like real life. This is why I like GFY, you can’t really compare the past women to the one man. I don’t mind if a man is married and cheats to be with his OTL but I want the character to feel bad about what he is doing. I couldn’t sympathise with with an MC who could just stomp on someone’s heart like that without remorse.
I think my personal feelings on this subject stem from my RL relationships. I was cheated on once by the love of my life (still to this day even though we are not together) and it still makes me feel sick sick sick to think about it. Like the thought actually makes me shudder. Breaking hearts in the past is one thing but to me (at least in romance novels) when you find your OTL, it’s monogamy all the way.
P.S. And I want all this with rip-roaring action/sci-fi/adventure, well crafted characters and edge of your seat twists and turns in the plot. I don’t want much do I? 😀
I’ve been reading some other comments and it seems that I’m in the minority in wanting my MCs to stay physically and emotionally faithful to each other even without having the “Let’s be exclusive…” talk. I guess I feel that once the guys meet and are attracted to each other physically and emotionally, that going off and banging someone else undermines the relationship even if it is realistic.
I wanted to clarify though, that there’s almost nothing (including an MC blatantly cheating on the other) that would turn me off a book if it’s good. I don’t even necessarily need a HEA or HFN, even the death of one or both of the MCs wouldn’t scare me away but I guess that while the love is there on the page, I want it to be a great love and so IF there is cheating, then I’d have to know that the guilty party was damned sorry and believe he’d never do it again because I expect more from him than I do guys in real life.
People have different expectations. You’re not the only one I’ve seen who prefers that. It also makes total sense why you prefer no cheating. I’m so sorry you got cheated on 🙁
I for one, only like books with HEA or HFN endings. I just feel so cheated if there isn’t one. It’s the same with DVDs where I actually spoil things for myself by reading summaries to make sure there’s a HEA/HFN before I spend my money on a gay romance! There are just so many that don’t have a HEA/HFN – I already have one I’m never watching again.
Anyway, that was off topic. I just wanted to say that you have every right to your preferences.
I have no objection at all to cheating in a story as long as the reasons for both the cheating and the eventual reconciliation make sense.
However, I’ve read a few where there didn’t seem to be any particular reason for the cheating other than to create conflict, and the cheater was forgiven very easily as the end of the story – the HEA – approached. I don’t like those.
I’m no fan of cheating, but I’m also not a fan of some of the so-called unwritten rules of romance. Life is messy, unpredictable and sometimes not so nice. It’s how the MC’s deal with that and grow from those things that makes a story compelling for me. And, let’s be honest, I know romances are an escape, but a little bit of reality is sometimes good as well. I agree context is everything when it comes to cheating in stories, but I think that having so many rules and restrictions to which all characters must adhere takes the texture and nuiance out of the experience.
DebraJ, this is how I feel as well. While I completely respect everybody’s right not to read about any topic, and that cheating appears to be triggering issue for quite a few readers, to me, saying that romances should not deal with cheating means artificially removing one of the issues which can make protagonists learn and grow, be more complex characters, etc. I am not saying that anybody on the thread said it by the way, I just really really do not want authors to read this thread and decide that they will not include cheating in their stories from now on. I will happily read A LOT of romances, romantic mysteries, fantasy adventures, and while I am as fond of light hearted fluff as any other readers, I really really do not want the light hearted fluff to be the only type of stories which is being written if that makes sense.
Of course I have my own topics I do not want to read about it, but my only escapist requirement is happy ending and as much as I love happy endings, if it does not fit your story, I would much rather see the one that fits and will read it (just please dont kill them lol).
I hope I am making sense, I just do not want to see the dissappearance of the topics like cheating, drug addiction, other interesting issues from this genre. All IMO of course.
Sirius, that is my point exactly. The gritty issues of life make for some of the most compelling and complex TV, movies, books, etc. Why wouldn’t romance want to tackle some of that as well? I love happy-go-lucky stories and light-hearted books as well. But, not all the time. Perfection or unattainable standards aren’t what I’m after. I just want a good story. And, for me, sometimes that includes some discomfort and strife as well as people stuffing up. I know it’s not for everyone, but that is my feeling on it. But, to each their own. I know my tastes aren’t what everyone likes.
One of my all time favorite romances is “Where the Alegheny meets the Monongahela” (I am sure I butchered the spelling of the rivers again, but oh well :)) by Felicia Watson (and when oh when this author will write something else :)). This romance IMO was very far from being fluffy, it tackled serious, complex and painful issues and IMO did it superbly well AND gave both men a believably happy ending. I want more books like it, I search for more books like it all the time.
Very interesting thoughts from everyone. Thanks again for joining in!
As I’ve said, I very much believe cheating depends on the act and the people/relationships involved. For me, it’s the lying and deceit, not the actual act.
In the case of Where There’s Smoke, I’ve had some criticism of the adultery. And technically, it IS adultery. Jesse is forming a sexual and emotional relationship with another man while he’s married. His wife is aware of it and in favor of it, and in fact Jesse is very sensitive to her feelings on the issue, so in my eyes, it’s not cheating…but not everyone will agree, of course.
There are a million shades of gray when it comes to ANY aspect of relationships, so I’m always curious what people think of where lines should be drawn, etc. Especially readers!
L. A.
*Possible Spoilers*
To me in romance it is all about the author’s writing style/ability. I will define cheating as what the MC’s define as cheating. And if it happens (whether it is just emotional, a kiss or sex), I like the story if the characters deal with it in a way that is true to them.
So the examples for me in Bareback, I liked what it did for the story. The MCs lived it, and worked through it in a way that was believable to what I had come to know about them. I struggle more with feeling like the lost love of one of the MCs was a bigger problem to the HEA.
In Divide & Conquer, I struggled more with a simple kiss not because of the kiss itself but the way the character dealt with it did not feel right to me. Also, IMO it was not dealt with between the characters enough and that bugged me.
So my final opinion, it has to fit the characters and storyline. No cheating just to advance the plot.
OK, I just deleted a long (and I mean _long_) text about cheating that I wrote in answer to this essay, as I think the resume stands for itself, without boring you all mindless.
Almost any form of cheating in a book is possible, if the author knows, that a loss of trust (varying with the kind of cheating and the views of the reader) is the result. If the author acknowledges that and invests in rebuilding the trust, it can be a very good dramatic device.
However, with too much rebuilding of trust might not enough. I am a quite forgiving reader, but others might not be.
As it stands, in a romantic novel cheating is a capital crime and the story has to live up to this fact.
As a reader, for me cheating is when one partner in a committed relationship willfully has sex outside of that relationship, seriously flirts, kisses, has phone sex, or even exhanges heated glances with someone else in blantant disregard of their significant other. If it’s an open relationship, or casual, then it’s not cheating, as long as both partners are in agreement about being non-exclusive. No one gets hurt.
That said, while I personally am strongly against cheating, it happens in real life, why not fiction? I’ve known relationships that survived infidelity that went on to be stronger, though many never get past the mistrust.
I love an author so skilled with characterization that they can create a believable yet sympathetic cheater, someone who makes a mistake, is repentant, and makes amends, and who I can read about and say, “Ya know, in their shoes, I can’t say for certain that I wouldn’t have done the same thing.” That, my friends, is one heck of a writer.
“Insignificant Others” by Stephen McCauley is a book about cheaters that inspired mixed feelings about the protags.
I don’t think what you have in “Where There’s Smoke” is cheating. Not at all if he gets the go-ahead.
A Life Without You has gotten a number of negative reviews for having cheating content
(**Spoilers ahead!**)
The guy questioning his sexuality is in a relationship with a girl and plans to marry her. He comes from a small, narrow-minded town and has pretty set ideas about his future. He thinks he’s straight at the beginning, then bi after he sleeps with the MC, and then sleeps with the girl as a last resort to hang onto his future (no girl-bits shown or anything – and this is the cheating bit most people have a problem with).
(**End of spoilers**)
When I decided to write the story this way I knew it would never work unless there were some serious consequences. You can’t write cheating without them. I don’t mind reading books with cheating in them (obviously) if it’s realistic. It can create a hell of a lot of roadblock and it’s very often nice to see how the characters work around it. I want the cheater to go through hell before he’s forgiven though 😛
The thing with romance is that people expect different things from it. Some want hard core reality (and face it, cheating happens in real life – condomless sex also happens) while some don’t want hard core reality because they want to escape it by sinking into a nicer reality (fiction). It’s hard to figure out which group you want to write to or if you want to try to find something in between. I prefer to write on the reality side, though I don’t plan on smacking the reader in the face with it every time. I‘m not at all saying there‘ll be cheating in everything I write, but I will try to keep things real in every story…even though I did make one oopsie in ALWY – and no, it‘s not the cheating 😉
So, to those wondering, go ahead and write cheating, just keep it realistic and have consequences (and grovelling!). Just my 2 cents.
Erika
What I had a problem with was not that the character slept with his fiancee but the cruel and callous way he informed his male lover that he intended to do so in their dorm room, whether he stayed or not. That was incredibly wrong on so many levels. He was a double cheater – he cheated on his fiancee and then on his lover. Here’s a link to my review for those who haven’t seen it:
http://tinyurl.com/73kevq7
I wasn’t talking about your review specifically. There were more people on Goodreads who have commented on the cheating.
I wasn’t talking about your review specifically. I know what Jesse did was cruel and callous and it was meant to be so. Some people really hated Jesse and he ruined the story for them, but others loved the whole thing – it’s just a matter of opinion and preferences. Can’t please everyone and all that 🙂
I was actually referring to the Goodreads reviews. There was one who admitted being a hypocrite because she didn’t mind Jesse cheating on Anne, but hated that he cheated on Adam.
(Sorry about the double-post. I accidentally clicked send before I was finished).
I deleted the double post.
I can’t pretend to like Jesse because I didn’t, I thought he was a scumbag and a user.
There’s cheating and there’s cheating. I love many books with cheating boyfriends or spouses so that’s not an issue for me. One example is Chris Owen’s Bareback which other commenters mentioned and that book is on my all-time Top Ten list. Where There’s Smoke by L.A. Witt which I reviewed two days ago is another wonderful example of how cheating can be used to advance the plot. It’s all in the writing.
Wave, I think that for the readers like yourself and yours truly, who has no problem with cheating per se, the trick is basically to make the character likeable at the end, even if the character is very flawed. Not every author can pull it off (I have not read Erica Pike’s book and I am just using it as jumping point, I am not talking about the book I have not read) and some authors IMO just plain forget that flawed character can be likeable and redeemable at the end. I mentioned Felicia Watson’s book in this thread. She made me feel and root for a guy who hit his wife, trust me I never thought it would be possible, period, but I was so happy for Logan at the end of his journey, and even though I read this book few months ago, I still remember it and love it so much. If you want to make your character a cheater, I have zero problem with cheating as a story line per se, but depending on how you handled it, I may very well ending up hating the book, NOT because cheating was there, but because how it was handled, just with almost any dramatic issues. Of course there is absolutely no way you would win a reader for whom cheating is a triggering issue, period, no matter how well you handle it, in this case I agree that “you cant please everybody” is the best thought to have. Same way that with couple of exceptions, there is no way you can make me interested in storyline where one MC rapes each other and then they fall in love for example. But in pretty much most other situations you *can* win a reader like me over, because I have no objections whatsoever to cheating being used in the story, I may just hate how you chose to write it. Of course, if thats a deliberate choise, like Erica said to make the character’s actions be cruel and callous, then sure, you cant please everybody.
Sirius
As you and I both agree, if an author writes a flawed character in such a way that we come to love him in the end then it’s all good, but the writing has to be exceptional. It almost always comes back to the writing.
Of course I probably will never love a serial murderer like the one in Errors and Omissions, but that character was not one of the protagonists so he didn’t really matter. While not a trigger for me, I’ve stopped reading books with rapists because it just seems that one out of every two M/M romances lately use this trope, just like BDSM is now the new in thing regardless whether the writer knows anything about the discipline. Some of these books are laughable.
I think new writers who try to make their stories dramatic by characterizing one of their MCs as cruel and callous run the risk of alienating most readers because they don’t have the experience IMO of making the character redeemable. I love flawed characters as you know, and one writer you love whose MCs never have any faults or flaws 🙂 lost me a long time ago because her characters are just not believable. However, that’s just me.
Cheating is a trigger for many readers but not for me if the character is well written and the issues in the relationship are logical and the protag can be redeemed realistically somewhere down the road. No one is perfect and expecting characters to remain faithful forever once they meet their one true love, not even looking at another man, reminds me of het romance which is one of the reasons why I stopped reading the genre. However, as I said before, it takes a lot of skill to redeem a cheater and it depends on the circumstances around the cheating and how the character is written.
Oh yeah, I love flawed characters too and usually vastly prefer them to the perfect ones (well with the exception of that writer, but we all have our exceptions lol. Can you believe I am looking at her upcoming new release and telling myself I should not I should not I SHOULD NOT and I know I will do it again? Yeah, you probably can :), I whined to you already in the past). I mean, I can love a character who is a “nice guy”, but nice guy does not mean flawless human being to me. And yes, totally “serial killer” is probably a character I cannot love under any circumstances, you kill more than once and even in fiction you lose me, thats a capital sin as far as I am concerned. But *in fiction* I can totally love *remorseful murderer* character, if his remorse is handled well and I am talking about murder, obviously I am not talking about characters who had to kill be it on battle field or in self defense, but I know that skillfull writer would be able to make me love a character who deliberately killed once and experienced a great remorse, so really there are very few flaws that can make me stay away from the character, but as you said it all comes back to writing. I will read about addiction battles, cheating, killing, about almost any bad things the characters commit and as long as they are redeemed at the end, I am totally fine with it in romantic fiction.
OOOOO have you read “A private gentleman” by Heidi Cullinan yet? It does not have cheating, but both guys were so very flawed imo that less skillful writer could make one of them at least look as first rate jerk and Heidi made me root for both of them. I think this book will be another entry in my imaginary text book in my head – books which can show you how to write flawed characters in romances without makingg them look as irredeemable jerks 😉
I haven’t read A Private Gentleman because I was waiting for Damon to review it but it looks like at least another 10 days before he gets to it (he’s trying to finish Hard Head), so I’m taking the book with me when I leave on Friday. I can’t wait that long.
You’re not really considering buying another book by your favourite author, are you? You’re a sick, sick woman. :)Really sick, but I’m not surprised. 😮
I take back what I said about killers. I just remembered D from Zero at the Bone who was a contract killer, but that illustrates what I said about the writing. Not many writers could have made me love a killer but Jane Sevile wrote an exceptional book and I fell for D hook, line and sinker. Ally Blue also made me love Leon Fisher, a contract killer in Untamed Heart, but again it was the writing that won me over.
Well I guess we shouldn’t ambush this post to talk about killers when it’s about cheating. 😀
I do not think you will be dissappointed in A private gentleman even if you will read it before Damon’s review, but I guess I should not sound too sure, or I will jinx it :). OMG you are so right – I loved D too, so I guess it is possible to make me love almost any character if good writer so wishes. Although at the very least I will need that killer to not do killing anymore. Part of the reason why I disliked Angel and Assassin (I only managed to read book one) is because I was not enjoying sexual dynamics, but I think another part was because Assassin kept erm assassinating. Anyway, you are right,could you please make the next item on your agenda to write a post about the characters who are killers? 😉 See, thats what happens when I am sittig at home and bored 🙂
As to that new book, by that writer, I am trying hard to ignore, believe me, but I know what will happen eventually.
I will happily admit that I am one of those hypocrites that doesn’t mind an MC cheating on anyone as long as it isn’t on the other MC. But as I said earlier, just because I don’t like it, it doesn’t mean I won’t read it. I’ll download a sample of your book Erica and give it a go.
I don’t mind nonmonogamy at all, but I do not like dishonesty, whether related to sex or something else.
Also, I think there’s a big difference between an occasional one-night stand and an ongoing affair. The former may well be a mistake, whereas an affair is deliberate – in a sense, the difference is between a crime of opportunity and a crime of forethought. In both cases I think the relationship is potentially salvageable (although a lot less likely in the case of continued and repeated deception), and I often wish that characters wouldn’t immediately write off a relationship for a single instance of infidelity, even if ending the relationship was necessary to advance the story.
On a flip side, I supposed this is why (at least me personally) like the werewolves M/M romance a lot because they often use the mate concept which promise HEA. Which let me escape a bit from the fact that I am still painfully single… 🙁
As a female, I may be in the minority here, but I have always firmly believed there is a difference between sexual cheating and emotionally cheating. So in my romance novels, I don’t have a problem with it all. I actually prefer it because I believe that a truly strong and loving relationship can handle that “fine line” and sometimes even spice it up. :flirt:
OTOH, I do have a problem with it if the cheating is used maliciously against one or the other (using the Friends reference, I was always on Ross’ side on the whole “we were on a break”, lol!). But communication is always the key, though. If one partner is dead set against any cheating at all (for instance, maybe they had a bad experience before) then the other must respect that – because then it becomes lying and abusing trust, and that I can’t stand at all. Both partners must be able to communicate with each other. If you can’t be upfront with your supposed true love about all your wants or desires without worrying about offending, then the relationship is already on shaky ground, I think.
One of the fascinating things about romance is that it is both universal and very personal, so we all bring our own attitudes to a standard formula.
The problem with cheating only seems to arise if it’s one of the two main characters doing the cheating: after all, there are lots of books with off-screen or villainous characters doing the cheating – quite often an ex, or soon to be ex, of one of the main characters – and it just helps move the plot to the HEA.
If it is one of the main characters cheating. I wouldn’t rule the story out – any genre that makes its rules too narrow is going to run out of steam sooner rather than later. There does need to be breadth of plot and story to sustain the genre.
My personal hate is people who lie for their selfish personal advantage, whether it’s over sex or anything else. If it’s one of the main characters who does this, they are going to have to do some serious self-analysis, repentance and grovelling before I can be convinced that they deserve their HEA.
I’ve never had a lot of patience for the “never-ever once they’ve met” rule. It’s actually worse on the het side than here in m/m, if you can believe it.
If it happened before the characters had established a committed and monogamous relationship, it’s not cheating. If they’ve broken up previously, it’s not cheating until after they get back together. If the other partner doesn’t mind, it’s not cheating.
Heck, even if it is cheating, that’s not necessarily a bad thing from the story POV. A lot of people howl about the cheating in Bareback, but I thought it was realistic and well handled. It contributed to the story and the characters and the relationship development, and the story is better for it. Cheating is only a mark against a story if the writer handles it badly. But then, that’s true of pretty much any plot device. [shrug]
Angie
I came up against this reader reaction to Barging In, which really shocked me at first as I didn’t consider Dan’s behaviour to be real cheating. The first time it happens he hasn’t yet agreed to exclusivity, and the second time is only a drunken snog with his friend that he regrets in a big way.
For me, as I was writing a character who had always been promiscuous and didn’t want to settle down, it would have felt wrong to have him settle down into cosy exclusivity straight away.
It would have been a much shorter novel, too… 😉
So, to sum up, I’m very happy to read stories about flawed characters, and that includes cheaters. Just make sure they suffer the consequences and learn from the experience!