Recently there has been a spate of fanfiction stories being released as original fiction, not only as self published books, but also through reputable epublishers. This creates two issues for purchasers and reviewers. Many of these authors do not indicate that the books were originally fanfiction; and also, some of them do not withdraw the stories from their fandom, so they are still available free on the Internet while you pay the going rate if you buy a copy.
The fanfiction debate has been ongoing for years in multiple genres. Additionally, many well known M/M authors who got their start writing fanfiction seem to be ashamed of their “roots” 🙂 which upsets some “fanficcers”. There’s nothing wrong with fanfiction, and an excellent example of taking the “fan” out of “fanfiction” and turning it into a New York Times bestseller is the het BDSM romance Fifty Shades of Grey. Posted originally as an Edward/Bella A/U story from Twilight fandom, this trilogy, written by E.L. James a London mother and former TV producer, is all the rage in “literary” circles despite being labelled as mommy porn. Ms James just signed a movie and book deal that apparently is worth 5 million dollars, which should see her set for life. The lesson? Fanfiction sells. This is probably why so many new and experienced authors are recycling their fanfiction stories and palming them off as original works.
Why do I care about this? Because it creates several problems for us on this site. First, several of the reviewers who never read fanfiction are reviewing stories that they believe are original fiction, but when they post their reviews or talk to other readers about the books, they find out that they were originally fanfiction that was converted. Moreover, we had two blatant cases last week where the authors didn’t even attempt to hide it and the similarities were so glaring it was fairly obvious to the reviewers where the stories originated. Reviewers on the site need to know which stories are original fiction unconnected to a fandom — and vice versa — before we post our reviews. However, since we’re not detectives many of these books will be reviewed without a notation that they were originally fanfic, and it will be up to readers to let us know if they are original or recycled fanfiction.
Which brings us to a question: Should these books be labeled “previously published in another format?” I think yes, and that they should go even one step further and indicate the “other format” (i.e. that these books were previously published as fanfiction) so that purchasers and reviewers alike would be aware that the work was not original fiction.
My other issue is, when does fanfiction, which is free, become “original” fiction and released for sale? I think that at least 50% of a book should be new content (i.e. original material) if it was previously fanfiction so purchasers don’t feel that they are being ripped off. So for example, in a 250 page novel I would expect that 125 pages should be new, original content. Is that unreasonable? What do you think or do you care at all? Of course a much better solution would be to write an original story, but what the heck, that’s probably too much creative work. 🙁
Several years ago Erastes wrote a post on this site about fanfiction being regurgitated and recycled as original fiction and I have linked it. Two questions she asked were:
Should publishers allow easily recognisable fanfic to be published?
How do you feel about paying money out for fanfic you could read free on archived sites?
My question is, how do we review recycled fanfiction? I assume your problem is that you shouldn’t be paying for a book that’s free elsewhere if the author has not removed his/her stories from fandom sites before peddling it to publishers. Should publishers be more vigilant and ask the right questions before they accept a manuscript? This problem is going to get worse because it seems that the flood gates have been opened and many authors are releasing fanfic and their publishers (maybe they are unaware?) are not indicating when a book is recycled fanfic or if it is original fiction, so you 
take your chances when you buy. Can you get your money back from the publisher if you can prove it was fanfic? IDK
So many questions and not many answers.
Comments?
I started out writing fanfic and still do. I write less fanfic these days, but that’s more because I’m between fandoms than anything else, plus the pro writing takes up a lot of time.
I’ve never hidden that I write fic and never will. It’s a source of pride, not shame, and a way to really let loose and indulge my creativity.
But recycle it to sell? I could. I’ve got three or four novel-length AUs I could easily pull to publish and tweak so they’d pass as original. But would I?
Never. Never, ever.
If it goes out with my name on it and a price tag, it’s 100% original, not based on characters from any book or TV show or movie.
Borrowing characters to write fic about for fun and reinterpreting them is fine in my book. Most of the fandoms I’ve written in are TV show-based where the creators, like Joss Whedon, are very on board with the idea of fic.
Profiting from characters and settings someone else dreamed up, though?
I just couldn’t.
Hi Jane
I have never read fanfiction and wouldn’t know it if it dropped on my head. It seems…well a little like lying to me. When I review I think the author is handing me an original work of their own–their own ideas, thoughts—it would definitely shade my review if that were not the case…in fact I am not sure I would want to review a work that was fanfic for that very reason. I don’t know–this is not an easy question(s) for me because I am truly ignorant on the whole genre–kind of glad I am! 😕
I have only read some of the Kirk/Spock fanfic because I’m a fan of the series. If an author tried to pass that off as original fiction they would be quickly found out. Other stories are not easily recognizable unless you were a member of the fandom.
I recently reviewed a self published book that was originally A/U fanfiction (I didn’t know ahead of time) that was incredibly well written and the author followed all the rules, including removing it from the fandom before publishing it. This was her original work and not part of other stories or characters in the fandom.
However, not all authors are ethical and one reviewer refused to review a book last week because she recognized the story as fan fiction. Another one was easily recognizable because the author made no attempt to hide she had “lifted” characterizations from a popular television show.
This is going to be a problem for both purchasers who never followed fan fiction, as well as for reviewers who have no idea of the origins of the stories they review.
You *think* you haven’t read fanfiction. In reality, so much “original” fiction is derivative work built on other authors’ efforts, and it’s been this way for millennia. There are no new ideas; just new ways of presentation.
For instance: Much of Shakespeare was taken from Chaucer, The Decameron, and other sources he didn’t necessarily credit. So I hope for your own statement that you’re not a fan of the Bard … or a lot of other “great” “classics” writers. 😉
Great post Wave.
I may have said some of it in similar discussions elsewhere – it definitely comes out on the pretty regular basis, sparked either 50 shades of grey or any other book discovered as former fan fiction, but some of it I am thinking about now. There IS nothing wrong with fan fiction, I have read and loved it for years, still do, even if don’t have time to read much of it.
You know I have a tendency to ramble, so please forgive me for that. I most definitely acknowledge the existence of grey areas and I have no problem with one work of fiction being an inspiration for another work of fiction. I mean, it happens all the time in- the inspiration from another work. However the existence of grey areas to me means that some very AU fan fictions could be considered original fiction, so far removed they are from the source, and except by being an inspiration and I can’t draw the hard and fast line as to what constitutes an inspiration. But if I can recognize the characters and fandom OR anybody else can easily recognize them, that annoys me quite a lot. Besides the reasons you raised, it is more than inspiration, it is taking somebody else’s characters changing them very little and telling the reader “Gotcha” IMO. I learned after the fact that one book that I reviewed on the site and several books that I have read (yes, all from Dreasmpinner – they may not be the only one who does it, but they seem to be one of the worst in that regard) were fan fictions before with easily recognizable fandoms, for those who had been in those fandoms. I felt that writers were playing a not funny joke with me and other readers. You can’t rework it into original story, don’t publish it, shouldn’t it be as simple as that? Apparently it is not though, again witness 50 shades of grey.
I mean, people keep saying that there are no completely original ideas in fiction left. I both feel that it is true and completely not true. I finished “Magic mansion” by Jordan Castillo Price just about yesterday, not sure if you have read it yet, but if you did, you know how she took the idea which is in existence for years now on our TV and gave it unique, fresh, wonderful twist. I feel more and more that when people defend their right to republish their old fan fictions instead of creating something new with original characters and settings (not unique, I am not asking for unique, believe me), it is really insulting to writers like her, who comes up with new ideas in every book she writes. I am using her as example simply because I am still in the state of “Oh wow, how amazing” after her next book.
Of course the harder questions for me come up when we are talking about the books like Zero to the Bone. I had no idea that it was a fan fiction before and only learned about it after the fact. I *could not* recognize original characters in there, and I know the source, but was not involved in the fandom. Some people are saying that it is very easy to see if you know where to look. So, I don’t know and I am still undecided about it, not because I enjoyed the book and still do, but because to me it was very AU and may qualify as original fiction. I do respect though that people are able to spot it. And of course I have no problem with people perusing a sex scene from their stories, or some other original moment and working it in their original story. Again, another grey area to me when the writer takes the underdeveloped secondary characters, which are mostly name only characters in the original story, gives them fleshed out personality and creates completely new AU world and original plot. To me this is an original story, which is inspired by the source, I respect if people disagree, but I think I am okay with those.
I like your suggestion about at least 50% content to be original, but to me such content should be the heart of the story if that makes sense? Because changing secondary characters and surroundings to me does not make an original story.
Thanks Sirius,
I haven’t read fan fiction knowingly, but what you just said really covers what I think……I love your phrase the ” heart of the story ” and will probably quote you in a review I’m working on!
I know the one you’re talking about Raine and I can’t wait to see your review. 🙂
Geez Sirius
This comment is as long as my post. 🙂 I can’t answer all of your comments because of time constraints.
Obviously fanfiction has been part of the writing genre for a long time but selling fanfiction stories without making significant changes in them, is if not a crime, unethical. People pay for these books believing they are original works, and if they have not been changed significantly (if they were their original works initially) and a lot of new content added, even for underdeveloped minor characters, then purchasers probably would feel ripped off.
I agree that there are probably no original plots today. Without speaking about specific books I think if an author can create a story from something on television without stealing the characterizations and making it their own then I applaud them. But when they do the reverse then I have a problem.
Great post Wave, you grabbed the bull by the balls, so to speak!
What I am wondering about as well is… Isn’t copyright infringement. It would be if it was published in it’s original form, but when the names are changed, you’re still set with a world that was not created by you. In some cases it’s pretty obvious, like Supernatural, Merlin, Stargate…
Secondly, if I’m buying a book, I’d like it to be an author’s original work, not second hand toilet paper. Yes, it’s okay to get your inspiration from something, but at least have the guts to make it your own.
I know copying is nothing new. It dates back to the middle ages, but at least no one was paying for it. Well at least not so long as you were a monk and could read.
As for your question on how to review? Should you? It’s not technically an original work. More than that, it’s published online for free.
It may sound a little harsh, while I’m usually easy going, but this genre is getting away with a lot. From bad editing, to plagerism to fanfiction, to just plainly bad written stories with holes big enough to fit a black hole through. Isn’t it time to stand up and say we could do better? We’re well on our way to becoming the laughing stock of the bookworld!
*rant done*
btw, mommy porn? Lol!!!!!!
Hi Larissa
We talked about this before.
I’ll just briefly comment on a few of your points. Copyright infringement and plagiarism are punishable by law so authors who do this take their chances with being convicted and having to pay large fines.
In the case of releasing fanfiction as original fiction, this probably will only work with A/U but even there you have to do a lot of work to change/rename the characters and create new stories around them. Why not write a completely new story? I think that would be a lot less work.
The issue of reviewing fanfic is what I said in the post, we don’t know most of the time until the review is published that the book is really fanfic. There are a few books for which the reviews are already written and we’re publishing them because we want to show what we’re dealing with. I reviewed an A/U fanfic story a few weeks ago but this was the author’s original work and not tied to the characters in the fandom, and she actually took it down before she published it for sale.
I realise that there’s no easy answer but I wish that M/M authors would stop throwing these books into the mix. When we review a fanfiction story it takes our time away from reviewing someone else’s original work.
As for the quality of M/M books, I’ve written many essays about this and I’ve been beaten to a pulp by some authors and even readers, so I’m laying off this topic for a while.
I like the term “mommy porn” don’t you? 😆
I’m not a fan fiction reader. I only read one x-rated Seinfeld story once (so funny I nearly peed myself) but I would be clueless. As long as I’m entertained I don’t really care that you used the Jetson’s as the basis for your sci-fi story about a hapless factory worker and his dog. But, I would be annoyed if I paid $7 for that story, only to find that if I’d dug a little I could find it on-line somewhere for free. That seems a bit like you’re being a trickster to get my money, and others like me who don’t follow fan-fiction genres.
I suppose I’m never sure where the story crosses the line from fan-fiction to original really. Classic movies like Star Wars and fairy tales have been recycled with common themes for ages. I’m just not sure how much advance warning is needed “This story is based on an idea I got when I watched a movie five years ago and though, I wonder what would happen if it was two guys and one of them was a doctor instead of a lawyer”. Eh. Whatever. My bigger concern is “If you dig in the archives you can read this for free, but shhhhh.” Or as you said, at least have significant new content to make it worth me spending my money on it.
Hi Tam
I think fanfiction must not be very popular in Canada since neither you nor I seem to know a lot about these stories. Other reviewers have to point them out to me when I post the new blurbs every week.
This craze of re-releasing fanfiction for profit is, in my mind, unethical because authors are selling stories that they know are not original. I have no idea what the publisher’s role is in all this but it pisses me off when I pay for a book and find out that it is/was available free on the Internet.
Adding significant new content would help for A/U stories which is really the only ones that could be released as original fic., but wouldn’t it be better/easier to just write a new story, unless you were really lazy and wanted to make a quick buck?
I don’t agree. I think Fan fiction is very popular in Canada. I know of at least 3 writers in Canada who started out learning their craft in Fan fiction and then went on to be published. And I know of a considerable number of Canadians who read fan fiction too. I started reading fan fiction about 7 years ago, first in the Buffy/Angel fandom and later in the Queer as Folk fandom. Some of those writers have gone on to publishing careers in original fiction and learned their craft by writing episodic fan fiction on social networking sites. I do think it depends what social networking site that you frequent. Fan fiction has always been incredibly popular on Livejournal and I know many Canadians who are or were members there.
I have no problem with writers turning their fan fiction in an original novel if it is an entertaining story and the time is spent turning it into something that deserves to be published. Obviously a lot of work needs to be done to make any story ready for publishing. Most writers that I am aware of who used fan fiction as a base completely rewrite the stories often adding new characters or events to the original episodic fiction as well as removing the names and places that would identify it with a specific fandom. I do have major problems with fan fiction writers who get published without making many changes or even worse apparently very little editing, like the 50 Shades series which is just so badly written. I have read a lot of erotica in both original and fan fiction format and none of it has been worse or more corny or more badly written than 50 Shades. I think that the subject matter in 50 Shades is titillating for those who have never read erotica and that is the only reason that you can attribute its success. I definitely has no literary merit.
I’m definitely one of the readers who’d be easily “duped” since I don’t really read much fanfic, plus I’m not even remotely familiar with the many fandoms that are out there. That said I would be both disappointed and more than a little miffed if I found out later on that what I thought was an original piece of work, was not. I’ve even got one ya trilogy gathering dust on the bookshelf because I was seduced by the pretty covers and then found out it used to be a controversial piece of fanfiction. I have yet to sum up the will to read it.
As for the question if fanfic could be/become original fiction I’d say yes but I think it’s easier to write it as such, than re-write it. My thinking is that fanfic writers are basically playing in someone else’s world or with someone else’s characters. So the way I see it, to make something original, you’d have to completely change the setting, the circumstances, or even the genre. Basically create a whole new world for your characters. On top of that you’d also have to change the characters themselves. By that I don’t just mean go from a wizard/paranormal/alien/etc. to boring old human (or the other way around), but also change their characterization, particularly how they behave/think/act. Thus, more or less inventing new characters. That way you do have something new and original on your hands. And if it’s decently written and overall a good and interesting story, I’d happily fork over the money to buy it.
Otherwise, even if you write an AU story, you’re still stuck with characters who behave like they do, and look like they do, and basically have the characteristics (physical and psychological) they do because that’s the case with the originals. And even if you dress them up and make them blond instead of brunette, you’re still using the original author’s creations as your own. Likewise, if you invent new characters (or make the old ones unrecognizable), but remain true to the original world and circumstances, you are once again using someone else’s work. Which is ok for fanfic, but not so much for original fiction.
Also, putting all that aside I have to wonder, if you want to be published (and feel your work is original), why put it up as fanfic in the first place? Why not try and submit it somewhere or even self publish?
Anyways, those are my somewhat rambling, but hopefully coherent thoughts on the matter.
Eva
I understand the “why” these authors just regurgitate their fanfic and offer it for sale either by self publishing or duping their publisher. It’s a lot less work and the money would roll it.
However, ethically how can they do this? We have to pay for these books and I feel angry when I find out I’ve been robbed. Because that’s what it is – robbery.
There are obviously lots of excellent fanfiction stories out there so I understand the motivation of some authors to try and pass off their stories for sale, but don’t they realize that readers would recognize them? Do they believe we are all stupid? I know I won’t recognize 95% of fanfic but someone on the site will when the book is reviewed.
In the case of something I’ve purchased, my money is gone forever and the author is richer.
I love fanfic and read a lot of it. I don’t follow ‘popular’ fandoms, although I know enough about shows like Torchwood to recognise that a couple of Dreamspinner titles used to be Torchwood fanfic. I’ve not knowingly reviewed a book that was originally fanfic, and I don’t know how I’d feel if I found out that I had. Probably I wouldn’t be bothered if I’d enjoyed the story, unless I found out it was originally from a fandom I really dislike 😆
I have less of a problem with authors repackaging RPF fics because I consider those AU already, and RPF AUs are pretty much original fics with familiar faces, as far as I’m concerned. As long as I can’t find it online and read it for free, I don’t care – I really won’t be able to tell that your awesome space cowboy novel was originally an Adam Lambert/Ian Somerhalder crossover AU!
But FPF fanfic repackaged makes me more leery. The example of Fifty Shades is a good one. I actually just read that book yesterday and was shocked at how bad it was. One of my fandom friends said she’s worried that Fifty Shades will become representative of fanfic, so anyone who doesn’t have a fandom background will think that fanfic = badly written porn. Fanfic has a murky reputation as it is and this sort of thing just muddies rather than clears the water IMO.
Leslie
You’re way ahead of the game. I had no idea that Torchwood fanfic was published as original fiction by Dreamspinner. I have reviewed fanfic (unknowingly) and I wonder how many other stories reviewed on the site are originally fanfiction. Maybe I should compile a list for readers.
Fifty Shades of Grey is, as you said, badly written porn, yet het romance readers are gobbling this book up and it was no. 1 on Amazon. Your friend is probably right that readers will think Fifty Shades is representative of all fanfiction. I read a sample on my Kindle a few days and I was appalled at the poor quality of the writing.
I hope that readers who object to paying for recycled fanfiction will email the publishers whenever they can prove a book is former fanfiction. Maybe that will make publishers do some due diligence.
I don’t think readers should have a go at publishers just because a book started life as fan fic, they should have a go at badly written, poorly edited fics! In my mind selling that is worse than decently written converted fan fic.
Yes!! I agree, Josie.
Precisely. A good fan story, especially something from a small fandom that takes off from the original and is not a rewrite of an episode, could work perfectly well as a pro story.
But bad writing is bad writing. And I think it’s pretty dumb to post a fanfic and immediately start filing off the serial numbers. The stories I’d consider mining for ideas are probably 20 years old, and would have to be rewritten to the point that only the plot would remain. ONLINE fanfic is another story, in more ways than one.
I think that the only fanfiction that can be revised and offered as an original is AU, alternate universe, fanfiction. How do you detach a non-AU fic enough from the original material to make it a stand-alone? I don’t even think it’s possible. At best, you can replace names, and have captain Dirk and a pointy-eared Martian on a spaceship called Exitprise… but with all the original dynamics and peculiarities still in place. The best thing in that case would be, I think, take the original idea in your fic – an interstellar mystery? A space war? – and use it to write a brand new story, with new dynamics and characters.
But if you have an AU fanfic… if you have, say, a story about two college students struggling to land the gig of the century with their rock band? You may have written it using the names ‘Kirk’ and ‘Spock’ to appeal to the fandom, and because you enjoyed picturing those characters with Kirk and Spock’s faces, but if that’s the only similarity, then I think this already qualifies as original fiction. I’ve read plenty of AUs that were wildly out of character and had nothing to do with the original fandom… that was because they were original fiction, but the author still had the training wheels of calling it fanfiction, and using fandom character names, in place.
I had a longer post I’d written, but when I clicked submit, apparently my typing took too long and it timed out (losing my long post). So, here’s a shorter version. I agree with Cornelia. There’s a lot of good AU fics where the only ‘fandom/canon’ thing about them are the names/look of the characters. In these cases, the story is already an original plot/fic. Sometimes, even the ‘fandom’ characters within the AU are OOC (meaning their personality in the AU doesn’t match their personality in the fandom in which the AU is posted). So, I can see the fic easily migrating to an original story just by changing the name/look of the character.
Like another commenter mentions, I, too, got into reading m/m original fiction by following an author who started out in fanfiction. Originally, I only planned to stay reading fanfiction because of characters I was already familiar with and loved. But, because the fanfiction was written so well, I was compelled to give the original fic a try. I think it’s a shame when an author decides to be embarassed by their fanfiction and pulls it all down (even if none of it is going to wind up in original fiction). Sometimes, I take chances on new authors in original m/m fiction only because I have first read and enjoyed their fanfic.
Thanks for posting Jb, I think sometimes fan fic gets such a bad name (and I don’t know why tbh) that people forget it’s benefits.
Hi jb
Thanks for commenting. As I said to Josie, I posted a long comment to Lynn and you may want to take a look at it.
Hi Cornelia
I agree with you that the only fanfic that probably should be sold is AU, as long as the story is original. However I still believe that the author should indicate that the work was originally fanfic. Many readers don’t want to buy a book that was/is available free. Also, as a reviewer I want to know the origin of the story if it was fanfic before I invest my time in reviewing it.
Kirk/Spock would be difficult to hide but some authors are releasing stories with characters that are recognizable from television shows or someone else’s books.
A book was recently published where an author used identical personality traits from a well known television show and didn’t even change the name of one of the characters. If you ever watched the t.v. show you would have no difficulty recognizing the characters in the book. This, to me, is stealing.
As you said, AU fanfic are probably the only stories that lend themselves to being published. I reviewed one such story a couple of weeks ago however, it wasn’t until my review went live that other readers indicated that it was fanfic (the author omitted this information).
Of course it’s possible. Gene Roddenberry marketed Star Trek as “Wagon Train to the Stars.” He also compared it to Horatio Hornblower.
To rework a K/S story, you change the environment completely. You make the Captain a Centurion of the Imperial Roman Army, you make Spock a strikingly intelligent African who studied with the priests of Egypt … It doesn’t have to be space opera; it doesn’t have to be set in the future. Good fiction is a human story, and settings can be altered. But it makes no sense to demand that a writer abandon an idea just because the inspiration was a TV show or film.
I don’t follow a lot of fandoms, so it would probably be pretty easy to slip one by me just on fandom stuff. Where I start wondering is if the characterization seems flat or if the rules for a specialized universe aren’t spelled out. Then I figure that anyone in the know would be aware and have filled in the blanks for themselves.
And that makes me mad on a couple of levels. Which I just realized made a rant so long it’s going to need a blog post elsewhere because it won’t fit here.
Hi Crys
I’ll have to look for those clues the next time I’m wondering about missing worldbuilding. 🙂
And that makes me mad on a couple of levels. Which I just realized made a rant so long it’s going to need a blog post elsewhere because it won’t fit here.
I look forward to your post. Please send me a link. 😆
I think it is good when aspiring writers learn and polish their writing skills in fanfiction instead of dumping their first ever written thing on us.
And I would think that a good writer would eventually will get bored with the worlds created by others and think of something new for themselves. A way of challenging their writing skills.
Or am I thinking too simple then? 😕
And as more people are saying I would not recognise a piece of fanfiction unless it has a magician named Harry in it. :geek2:
Hey Ingrid
Great to see you again. How is the job working out? 🙂 I guess it’s no longer new.
I think it’s wonderful for new authors to practice their skills by writing fanfic, as long as they don’t try to sell these stories which are based on someone else’s characters, world and creations.
This is a really thought-provoking post. I had never read any fan fic until I tried Dericka Snake’s Cake series which was all the rage in M/M a few years ago. She was all anybody talked about. She didn’t mind her books being pirated until she got a publishing deal – and then she wanted to get her books removed from the theft sites and the sites that had embraced her from the start.
I purchased her self- pubbed book “What Brothers Do” for a hefty fee on Lulu and was dismayed to see that it was the same stuff, poorly edited, still filled with typos and still very fan-ficcy (is that a word?).
I think there is a place for fan fic especially when authors are bursting to write and need an outlet but the quality of the work – any author’s work – needs to be improved if they expect people to pay for it.
Publishers need to be honest – not just about fan fic – but about other works they publish that are not original.
Right now there is a plethora of M/M stuff being regurgitated from defunct publishers with new titles, new covers…same story but no hint that this is so…
Hello AJ
Please see my very long comment to Lynn (about 5 or 6 comments down) further explaining my views about fanfiction (guess I didn’t do a good job in the post). 🙂
I have written many posts about badly written M/M books. Any book that’s badly written deserves to be panned. Our job as reviewers is to give our opinions to readers so that they know what to look for before they buy a book and then it’s their choice whether to go for it because everyone’s taste is different
Thanks for sending me the goodreads link – I’m afraid I don’t visit there often because of time constraints.
Sorry just me again. I want to include this Goodreads link on the book I bought where I wrote a review and others did too, addressing this issue of fan fic being sold: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6716418-that-s-what-brothers-do
I don’t have a problem with fan fiction turned into published work. I don’t even mind if its still available free, as long as its the original writer benefiting from the book, self published or professionally published, it’s all the same to me, after all the author wrote the story in the first place so they should get some benefit from it. If its good then it will sell and the reviews will prove it, if it’s bad, well time will tell that as well.
Most authors who start by publishing fan fiction go on to write totally original fiction as well.
Josie
Please see my response to Lynn about why I’m concerned since I would basically be repeating what I said to her.
With regard to fanfic being your door to M/M, that’s a legitimate point, but the fanfic was free. Now authors are selling these stories.
If the story used someone else’s creative proprietary property then that’s stealing if they try to sell the books. As long as the stories remain in the fandom that’s okay, but selling what’s not yours, regardless whether you create a separate story, it’s still not based on your own creative efforts.
I think in this case we will just have to disagree.
I also think there’s another point here which needs to be considered. I only got to m/m fiction through fan fic, through following a fan fic author who published a totally original story. Since then, 2 1/2 years ago now, i’ve bought over 700 m/m books, i buy a few every week, and have so far only read a fraction of them (hoping to read them all one day).
Without fan fic, (I have some m/m books and I the original fan fic story as well) I would never have discovered m/m fiction, so those 700 books (and no doubt many more) would never have been bought.
I have only frequented a few fandoms (and these do not include Harry Potter, Twilight, or Star Trek) so its doubtful I’d recognise a lot of fan fic but for me, as long as the book is well written, and entertaining, I couldn’t care less where it started its life.
Ok… I think I’m missing a point here. I’m not sure if it’s because I’m dyslexic, or I’m just missing it.
I guess my question is, are you upset that these fics are based on characters in a show somewhere – names have been changed, but not the character – or are you upset that the work was once free and isn’t anymore, or both? Also, what makes something “original”? I’ve read a fair amount of Fan Fic, that, as someone else pointed out, is so AU if it were published without the character names, the characters wouldn’t be recognizable. The jobs, situations, and surrounding characters have changed to such an extreme degree, that the only thing that remains in the fan fic are the names and maybe the basic relationship.
I get the possible copyright infringements. I’m not sure what is involved with getting the rights to publish stories with existing characters in an existing world – thinking of all the Star Trek and Star Wars books out there as an example – but I’m guessing keeping cannon relationships is part of it.
Sorry this is so long, just trying to understand what I’m missing. Thank you for any clarification.
Hi Lynn
I think I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining so I’m going to try again: 🙂
Most fanfic outside of AU or RPF is based on someone else’s intellectual proprietary property such as television shows, books etc. Fanfic authors use these shows and books to write their stories but the original ideas are not theirs, they belong to the person who created them.
This is fine if it stays in the fandom and is not sold. However what has been happening is that authors are selling thinly disguised stories that are based on the characters and worlds created by someone else. Changing the characters’ names or locations doesn’t make a story original.
When someone buys these stories and recognizes them as ones created in a fandom that’s where the issue arises because they feel cheated. Also, as reviewers we are wasting our time reviewing copycat books because we have no idea that they are in fact regurgitated fanfiction. I think the authors should at least indicate that these books were formerly fanfic so that we could choose, or not, to review them and readers would be aware of their origins before they purchase them. Just because you write a story based on someone else’s characters doesn’t make it your original creative work.
As many readers have said, AU is probably the only fanfic format that could be sold but again if it’s the same unchanged story that was free and its still available on the Internet, why should readers buy it?
So there are three issues: If an author uses someone else’s creations i.e. their characters and their world then sells the story, that’s stealing their intellectual property. Second, if someone buys a book that was formerly fanfic and didn’t realize it until they started reading the story, they have a right to be angry at wasting their money. The third issue is why should reviewers unknowingly review these books when they are in most cases not the author’s original creation.
Please also see Kirsten’s comment at #23 which sheds a completely different light to this whole matter.
Thank you, Wave. Between your explanation, and Kristen’s comments it does help me understand what you were discussing.
I was thinking more of the serious AU’s going professional, not actually taking the characters and changing the names. Though Kristen makes a very valid point that even those weren’t written in a vacuum. :blush:
Nothing is written in a vacuum.
Robert Parker’s “Spenser” series is a popular series built on a very recognizable archetype; Parker did his dissertation on “the detectives of Hammett, Chandler and Macdonald as descendants of the heroes of James Fenimore Cooper.” Parker was invited by Chandler’s estate to finish “Poodle Springs,” Chandler’s last novel. One could call that fanfic.
The short-lived (and pretty awful) TV series “Jake and the Fat Man” was a poorly-updated incarnation of Nero Wolfe and Archie Goodwin.
I think the gutting of classic fiction has opened up a can of worms with fanfic. My own rule of thumb is – if the story is good, I don’t care if it’s rewritten fanfic. But if I were the publisher, I would require that all other copies be taken down.
Nothing is written in a vacuum.
Robert Parker’s “Spenser” series is a popular series built on a very recognizable archetype; Parker did his dissertation on “the detectives of Hammett, Chandler and Macdonald as descendants of the heroes of James Fenimore Cooper.” Parker was invited by Chandler’s estate to finish “Poodle Springs,” Chandler’s last novel. One could call that fanfic.
The short-lived (and pretty awful) TV series “Jake and the Fat Man” was a poorly-updated incarnation of Nero Wolfe and Archie Goodwin. This is nothing new, it’s just more obvious because the Internet makes communication worldwide and almost instantaneous.
My own rule of thumb is – if the story is good, I don’t care if it’s rewritten fanfic. But if I were the publisher, I would require that all other copies be taken down. Why would any publisher put the cost of pubbing into a story that’s still available for free – and not just from the pirates?
Writing is WORK. It is not easy. If a writer offers a free story online, it is a gift, not an entitlement. If the writer later decides to sell the story, that is her/his choice, and, IMO, should be respected.
As for fanfic – where did this idea that “original” work is more worthwhile come from? In my collection, I have a novel that is clearly and unashamedly fanfic (same names, same universe) but it is so fabulously written that I would have gladly paid three times as much for the privilege of reading it. I also have “original” work that was poorly written and a complete waste of my money.
What makes a story worthwhile is how well it’s written, not where the idea came from.
Hi Kiracee
If the writer steals someone else’s ideas or creations from a published work or a television show then it’s not their original work. No one said that an “original” story is better written than fanfic – I certainly didn’t say that. What I said is that if you use someone else’s proprietary work without their permission then it’s clearly not your own creative work.
As a reader I resent paying for a book that I might have read free in a fandom.
Re “free” stories, authors offer their own original work free all the time to entice readers to try their work. This is a well known marketing technique (like a “loss leader” in a store) and it works if the free stories are any good.
Hi Kiracee, I totally agree with you. Some of the best ‘original’ books I have started life as fan fic, and some of the worst….well just an appaling waste of money, and NOT fan fic!
You both have points.
I’ve read (or started to read) many books that were not fanfic but were totally unoriginal. Not plagiarized — formula.
I’ve read fanfics that were ‘too good to be fanfic.” Stories where a writer was playing in another writer’s universe (let’s say Star Trek, it’s the grandaddy) but took things in a different direction and went where the original series had never gone before.
INSPIRATION is not the same thing as THEFT. If someone goes bats for Lieutenant Uhura and writes a story in which a character fitting her description (internally, if not in all exterior details) wins command of her own ship and has her own adventures, is that ‘theft?” Not, in my book, if the story is written in a way that makes the characters and adventures distinct from its inspiration.
There’s a very popular m/m novel out, some years old now, that I can’t read because the sample excerpt made me say, “Jack Sparrow and a Cardassian.” But… that’s me. Someone who never saw either DS9 or POTC might enjoy it tremendously.
Hi Wave
I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. I object to the attitude (not specifically yours) that original fiction is, by definition, more valuable than fanfic. I object to the idea that fanfic is easy to write, because, done well, is no easier to write than original fiction. Generally, the fanfic writer may use characters (and their personalities) someone else came up with, but the writer still has to portray those personalities, invent situations, actions, dialogue, emotions, – in short, the writer still has to write a good story.
Nor do I think that writing such a story gives the writer the right to sell that story and make money off the characters and/or universe developed by someone else. But mainstream sci-fi, for instance, has been doing this for years – the author/publisher has permission from the original creator and pays fees or royalties on the books sold to that creator.
IMO, taking a thinly disguised fanfic and publishing it is reprehensible, not because it is valueless, but because it is theft of the original creators’ ideas. Please note that I don’t think it is cheating the reader – it is cheating the original creator.
As I believe Sirius mentioned earlier, there is a wide gray area once a writer starts changing the characters, etc., of the original. At what point is a story defined as using another person’s work and at what point is it simply inspired by that work? I suspect that everyone you ask would have a different definition.
Btw, I neither read nor write fanfic. I posted because I objected to the attitude (again, not necessarily yours) that fanfic is valueless, or at least, less valuable than original fiction.
Hi Kiracee
I don’t think anyone would ever say that fanfic is easy to write or that it’s of lesser value than published stories. It’s an art form to expand or extend original characters and write stories that continue their adventures.
I strongly believe that there’s a difference between creating your own original characters and writing stories about them, and creating stories about someone else’s characters, no matter how complex these stories may be. By extension, if you publish these latter stories it could cross the line about what is ethical and stealing someone else’s creation, and a court might consider it plagiarism.
I think we have already established that fanfic has a lot of value, both personally and creatively. The millions of fans who are members of various fandoms can’t be wrong.
For a completely different perspective please see the comment by Kirsten at #23 about what this new trend is doing to fans and the community.
Well I would be totally pissed that I used my hard earn money on a book that was originally free. I would be doubly pissed if I actually read the book that was free and then bought the book that I already read. :curse:
I’m with you Jaime.
But…that’s why there are excerpts and synopses. Wouldn’t you recognize a story that you’d already read?
For me personally I would be pissed if somebody else recognized the story same way as if I would recognize it. No, I don’t think the fact that I never read the book or watched the show should make it okay for the writer to pull the fast one on me or anybody else by presenting the story which barely disguised the original or not at all. My test as long as anybody recognizes the settings and characters – I am annoyed. Case in point – I reviewed the book here which I did not care for and then read review by Erastes of the same book on her site. She mentioned in her review that if one knows the fandom they would recognize the settings and fandom very easily. While I have heard of this show I have never ever watched it. In my book said fact does not make it any more okay for the writer to present this story as original one. As I said in my earlier comments I do recognize that the lines between inspiration and more than inspiration are blurred sometimes. But IMO not always and if you lift the characters wholesale in your story to me it crosses that line from inspiration to not. Of course opinions differ on that I totally realize that.
Hi Kiracee I honestly feel that well written work versus fan fiction work are not exactly comparable issues. I am a Harry Potter fanatic who loves canon, but also loved fan fiction. I have read a lot of fanfiction which developed original characters with such care and depth that I do not think JKR was ever capable of. The thing is though, those characters would have never existed without JKR in the first place. They started as very very recognizable Harry, Sirius, Ron, etc . Sure writers took care developing them and then even took them in somewhat new direction. The thing is – without original source they would have no characters to develop. I respect your opinion, but I would deeply resent paying for work like this no matter how well written it is. And of course free original work is a gift from the writer, however free fanfiction to me is the matter of basic respect to original source, IMO anyway. I am not talking about wildly out of character AU of course.
I like good, well-written stories. I don’t care where the author gets the inspiration for story and character: it could be another book, a TV programme, film, real-life story or a fertile imagination nurtured in a vacuum. It’s all good.
A story needs to have convincing characters who are believable in the context of the book without reference to outside sources. If a book which started as fanfiction does that, I don’t have a problem, provided that there is no plagiarism going on. Plagiarists are always in the wrong. But provided the characterisation stands on its own merits, and there is no plagiarism, I think there’s no inherent cause for complaint if a story started as fanfiction.
The final question is “would I feel cheated if I paid for something which started as fanfiction?” I don’t necessarily see that I should. Firstly, I might not have found the story as fanfiction, but only through the efforts of a publisher to make the story available. Secondly, fanfiction on the net might cease to be available at any time through any number of causes – “free” on the internet is never entirely free, but always has a cost to someone, and very little on the net is forever, unlike a purchased and downloaded or hard copy version. So regardless of whether the words are the same as a free version on the net or not, I’m buying value if I buy the book. I’m buying good value if I like the book, and will keep it to re-read.
I don’t think anyone has a right to complain if someone puts a story on the net for free, and then takes it down. It’s their story, and their right to do that. I like getting stories for free, but I don’t think I’ve any entitlement to get them for free, or for any longer than the author wants me to. (I’m gradually buying Manna Francis’ The Administration stories in hard copy, even though the stories are mainly (not entirely) available free on the net. It’s worth it to me to have the complete versions in hard copy. I also have Zero to the Bone: I understand that it started as fanfiction, but I love the book, I think it stands on its own as well-written characters and story, and don’t care about its origins.)
I can see that Wave, and reviewers, are coming at this issue from a different standpoint to that of the reader. I don’t have any responsibilities to anyone else to pass on accurate information, and don’t feel the need to have inside information on the genesis of a book. I can see that those issues matter more to a site like this, which is endevouring to provide readers like me with the best available information on new publications. But I think you are entitled to treat any professional publication on its own terms, without having to consider its possible earlier incarnations. You have to trust that publishers will not be publishing plagiarised work. If that turns out to be wrong, it’s the author and publisher who are at fault, not you.
Hi Allie 2
I love excellent, well constructed stories like Manna Francis’s Administration series and I have every one of those books in print, even though I know they are available free on her website. But this is her original work – which is the point that I’m making.
I reviewed an excellent AU book a couple of weeks ago that started out as fanfic (I didn’t know it at the time) but it was the author’s original work and was only in her fandom and not connected to characters created by someone else.
It’s wonderful that fanfiction is available free on the internet for however long the author chooses to make it available. When/if she takes it down that’s her prerogative.
My concerns about fanfic are outlined in the post and in my very long comment to Lynn at 15.1. As long as the writer does not use someone else’s copyrighted characters or world as the basis for her book that’s fine. However, it would be nice to know if we’re reviewing fanfic so that we could let other readers know.
DSP is not the only publisher who has published rewritten Torchwood fanfic, I know of 3 other publishers who has done this (I spent a couple of happy years in that fandom, these authors are friends and I know they told the publishers about the stories being fanfic originally, I only have one of those books though, unlike the other stories, it was never published as fanfic)
Friends informs me that DSP has a lot of rewritten LOTR fanfic but I’ve never even finished the movies so I don’t know if it’s true
As long as it’s no longer recognized as whatever it originated from, I’m fine with the process of rewriting/publishing fic
Majken
Thank you for commenting.
For another perspective you might want to take a look at the comment from Kirsten at #23.
An interesting topic! First, I would not even require 50% ‘original’ content from the fanfic, I’ll settle for a revamped version – properly edited, character background fully loaded and made ‘original’, and hey, maybe I’ll be more able to handle a ‘fanfic’ sold as original fic.
I am half and half on this issue. If the fanfic is not an AU in any way, shape, or form, I will feel 100% cheated if I bought that ‘original’ m/m story. First, you’re completely stealing the characters and using them for your story in which case, just..no. If the story was sufficiently AU, and the author spent a lot more time fleshing out the characters by NOT copying the original source, then yes, I’d be okay with it.
Either way, inspiration is different from stealing… I think canon-fics walk too closely to the line of stealing for my comfort level. But of course, YMMV.
Writing is hard work, sure it definitely is, but so is many other things in life. If you started off by taking characters, plots, instances from other people, I think you’ve started out on the wrong foot. Use that as your practice piece if you will, but I’d much rather see original work.
As a frequent reader of this site, I’d rather see original fiction over fanfic turned ‘pro-fic’ any day. However, if that’s not possible, I’d really want it to be made clear to readers what fanfic it was and from where… or at the very least, made known that the ‘pro-fic’ has its origins from fanfic.
TO me and my wallet, yes, there’s a huge difference between fanfic and original fic.
To be quite honest, I don’t care how well the fanfic is written – I’m still pissed I bought it without knowing it’s fanfic. And I may dislike an original piece of fiction.. it happens, you can’t love every book you buy – but I’m okay with spending that money because to me, the author tried.
Also, someone asked if we (the people who do not like fanfic turned profic) just don’t want authors making money off their originally free work.
For me, the answer is no – I own quite a few works by Megan Derr – and unless I’m mistaken, her books were original fiction turned pro-fic. There is a difference in my mind.
Hi S
As always – a very balanced point of view.
I’m with you but in most cases we don’t know the source before we publish our reviews and it’s then up to readers to point this out. Sometimes it’s way too late because readers have already bought the books. The problem in most cases is that the blurbs are changed and sometimes the names as well, so even someone familiar with the original work can be fooled into buying the published work.
Everyone has a right to make money but I don’t believe it should be on the backs of the original creators of the characters as well as the world. Many former fanfic authors feel that if they make minimal changes to their fanfic stories then it’s okay. Well it’s not – they are still plagiarizing the original book/ series/television show.
I’ve only read ff in two fandoms, my favourite being The Professionals because I adore all things British, especially lovely, dangerous, British guys. I can honestly say that some of the novel length ff I’ve read is head and shoulders above many of the original novels I’ve paid good money for. I’ve often wished that those ff writers would turn their amazing talent to original fiction – then I happily find out that some of them have.
But turning ff into original, by simply changing the characters’ names bothers me – if I know the characters. I recently read a pretty awful novel that was apparently originally a S&H story – it gets rave reviews but I just thought it was dreadful in either incarnation.
I read a novel last year which was recommended on this site and absolutely loved it and its sequel. I found out after the fact that the characters were *based* on Torchwood. I knew/know nothing about TW so I’m happy to have been able to discover it as an original work.
Some years ago I purchased three or four absolutely marvelous novels that I’ve read over and over. It wasn’t until two years later when I discovered Pros ff that I found out they were actually originally ff.
Just wanted to add, if not for reading some lengthy, well edited, totally engrossing ff, I probably wouldn’t have 1400 plus m/m original novels purchased/downloaded on my lovely eReader. 10 years ago the only m/m novels I knew about were Mark Zubro (whose novel are not terribly interesting), Nava and the Strachey novels.
Discovering the talented and awesome Josh Lanyon through a ff writer was a red letter day for me! These were the characters and plots I’d been craving.
Then I found SO many other authors that have simply given me countless hours of pure reading pleasure. (Okay, I have to give a ton of credit to Wave’s wonderful site for helping me find writers like Harper Fox, JL Merrow, Tamara Allen, Wren Boudreau, Abigail Roux, Tere Michaels, Elle Parker and so on…;)
There is a lot of godawful ff out there, but there are some gems that are astonishingly clever and brilliant.
Hi Madonna
I appreciate your comment about having read some marvelous fanfic turned pro stories. However please read the comment at #23 from Kirsten which gives a completely different perspective.
There are always two (sometimes even several) sides to every story and it’s good to get everyone’s two cents.
Thanks again for commenting.
Hi Wave, I’m gonna come at this from a totally different perspective. I participate in fandom and I read fanfic and I consider myself a fan first, far more than I consider myself an original m/m reader. I HATE that people are pulling down their fanfic and publishing it. I think it’s lazy and greedy, but mostly I think it’s going to hurt fandom.
One of the core tenants of fandom is “not for profit.” That’s how most fanfic gets around the copyright issue– it’s transformative and it’s not-for-profit. We’re not doing this to make money, we’re doing it for fun and because we love the original so much that we want to play in the sandbox too.
So when fanfic gets pulled to publish, they’re not just taking reading material away. They’re destroying the goodwill of the fandom community. They’ve taken advantage of beta readers and proof readers for free editing. They’ve gotten accolades– sometimes hundreds of comments on the fic. In some cases the fics were gifts to other fans or collaborations with artists. They’re taking something that was about love and turning it into something about money– a commodity. And that pisses me off. (And I know other fans who dislike it too.) It’s not about quality for me. I could point out some published fanfic that got 5-star reviews on this site. There’s good and bad in all walks of life. It’s about deception and abusing the goodwill of fans and friends to me.
I think it’s disgusting that publishers are “recruiting” authors from fanfic communities and giving lessons on how to file the serial numbers off. If I’m picking up a published book, I am most definitely NOT looking for fanfic. I have stopped buying Dreamspinner and Silver books. I mean if I wanted to read fanfic, I already know exactly where to find it.
Kirsten
Thank you for this. Your comment has opened my eyes to what fanfic is all about and how opening the floodgates to publishing fanfic is changing the fanfic community:
I had no idea of what goes on within a fandom so I was really surprised at your comment about how much help these authors get from their peers and I can understand why you feel that the current trend is damaging the fanfic community.
Greed and the lust for money are great motivators.
I can relate to the hurt you and other fans feel when authors do this because it is a betrayal.
I hope that some authors who are considering jumping ship will read your comment and understand the hurt they are doing to the fanfic community.
I appreciate you writing about how you feel about this trend Kirsten and I hope that it won’t damage the community that so many fans have valued for decades.
I came off rather vehement, didn’t I? 😕 This topic riles up my passions. I should clarify, that it doesn’t bother me at all when fanfic writers transition to publishing books. I say yay, go for it! It’s just when they pull their fanfic down and try to capitalize off of that where I have major problems.
No worries Kirsten. 🙂
You were eloquent and I understood where you were coming from – I can relate. Loyalty has to be earned and when people do what these authors have been doing they should be made aware of how their actions affect everyone in their fandoms.
Hi Kirsten – I actually agree with you about canon based stories and even AU where characters while doing different things, living different lives are still recognizable because their character quirks are still intact. When I said I loved and still do Harry Potter fanfic – I really really was not kidding – I never was a writer, but I was an avid reader for almost ten years. Fanfiction got me through waiting between the books, it let me see my favorite adult couple together and took me places canon never did because of course canon could not do it for the variety of reasons. And I totally agree with you that transformative and non for profit is to me what fanfiction is, and I do remember all those promises in the beginning of the stories – no money being made, etc. except when I raised a similar argument elsewhere – I got laughed at. I mean I get that we want to forget about all those promises now, when we want to make money out of it, but it just feels wrong to me, and I think you described very well why it feels wrong to me. I am original mm reader now and don’t have time for fanfiction but it is simply because that there are too many books to read ( and I need time to read non mm books too :)), I would always remember fanfiction fondly and I want it to grow, I don’t want original creators to have reasons to have temper tantrums and say that they are against fanfiction because people are making money off it. Now of course it does not mean that if they are throwing a temper tantrums it means that they would have a power to do something, but why give them the reasons to? Anyways thanks for saying it and I agree with a lot of what you said. As I said before to me wildly out of character AU was basically an original story in the first place with the fand named characters.
Hey, Sirius. I think I may have run across your name before. I have a friend who was pretty active in HP fandom.
I don’t know– for me, it’s a slippery slope with AUs. I guess my reasoning is that once something is shared with fandom, it becomes a part of the collective unconscious of fandom, so removing it hurts all of us. People make rec lists and end up with broken links that go nowhere or make fanmixes and the motivation for the song choices are lost. That’s not to even mention big bangs and their artists. It really does become an interconnected community.
If a fanfic writer has something that hasn’t been put on the web before and they have no intention of getting betas and putting it up, it’s their absolute right to do whatever they want with it, even publish it. But I think it’s unethical for a writer to pull down their fanfic to publish it. That’s kind of my line in the sandbox. 😉
I think that 50 Shades could really hurt the fandom community. I almost wish S Meyer would sue, not because the story started its life as fanfic, but because it was published and commoditized. But I don’t think that’s going to happen and instead the original creators will start to see all of fandom as the problem.
when fanfic gets pulled to publish, they’re not just taking reading material away. They’re destroying the goodwill of the fandom community. They’ve taken advantage of beta readers and proof readers for free editing. They’ve gotten accolades– sometimes hundreds of comments on the fic. In some cases the fics were gifts to other fans or collaborations with artists.
Couple of assumptions going on here. #1 — if you read a fanfic online, you can save it to a file if you love it to desperation… but no one is obligated to keep it up indefinitely.
#2 – Not all fanfic is a community effort, most ‘free beta work’ and ‘free editing’ is reciprocated.
#3 – the comments, I presume, were in return for the story, which the commenters could have saved if they wanted to.
Just how much does a writer owe the “goodwill” of the “community?” If a fanfic is based on an original idea and a writer reworks the background to flesh out characters, in what way do you consider she “owes” the community? From my own days in fanfic, there were many people who were supportive and some who were such egregious backstabbers that it was they who inspired me to take my work off to a wider audience.
When a fandom has only 100 or so members… it’s absurd to demand that a writer never rework a story idea to share it with a wider audience.
If a fanfic writer has something that hasn’t been put on the web before and they have no intention of getting betas and putting it up, it’s their absolute right to do whatever they want with it, even publish it.
that’s awfully nice of you — but permission is not yours to give.
Oh, also it kinda irks me that a lot of people here are saying “Oh, it’s okay as long as you hide the free version.” To me that does not make it okay. It’s still abusing the goodwill of fandom and destroying it a piece at a time.
I think this is a very interesting conversation. I have written fan fiction (Twilight, don’t judge), although I don’t anymore. Fan fiction is what convinced me to try writing again, and slash fan fiction is what convinced me to write m/m.
I’m torn about the fan fiction vs. original fiction (OF) debate. I have plenty of finished fan fiction, and I would never pull it to publish. On the other hand, I had one story that I wrote three chapters of before I realized it would only ever work as original fiction. I pulled the three chapters, and now two years later I’m writing the story again from scratch. The only thing staying the same? The basic premise and the title.
But I’ve seen what pull-to-publish has done to the Twilight fandom. It makes readers feel like guinea pigs, and it makes authors defensive. I got a lot of wonderful support and feedback when I was writing fanfic, and it gave me the confidence to create my own characters and stories. With all the bad feelings, especially after the 50 Shades re-publication, I’m not sure new writers in the fandom can still get that kind of support.
Hi Kerry
Thanks for stopping by.
I started this conversation but am amazed at its different directions.
This is key. If authors continue on the path they seem to be going soon they may help to destroy the very fandoms that supported them in their writing careers. Is this what they want? What about new writers who won’t be able to get editing and beta support because other members of the fandom feel that they are being used?
I think it’s going to take a lot of new protocols before people feel comfortable supporting fanfic writers in future. A lack of trust between members is the last thing the fandoms need.
“What about new writers who won’t be able to get editing and beta support because other members of the fandom feel that they are being used?
I think it’s going to take a lot of new protocols before people feel comfortable supporting fanfic writers in future. A lack of trust between members is the last thing the fandoms need.”
Exactly! When I began writing fan fiction before the pull-to-publish controversy, it was difficult to find a beta reader. I imagine it’s almost impossible for new writers to find one now.
When I decided that my unfinished story didn’t work as fan fiction, I told my beta reader first and then announced publicly why I was pulling the story. I received nothing but encouragement. I think that was due to the transparency of it and doing it early on.
In the Twilight fandom now, a fanfic author announcing the move to original fiction is viewed skeptically. Will they or won’t they pull-to-publish? It’s definitely a different environment in the fandom now than when I was active in it.
A lot of fanfiction should not be professionally published because it’s just not very good. I wouldn’t ever even think of pubbing the Mary Sue that my sister and I wrote one summer when I was 17 and she was 13. It was so terrible I’ve never even shown it to my wife. The problem with a lot of this fanfic that’s going to print is that it’s just awful and the publishers either cannot or will not reject badly written work.
Like Kerry, I’m a fanfiction writer (also in Twilight). Before Twilight, I’d never written before, except for what they make you do in school (which I always sucked at). Writing fanfiction opened up a whole new world to me, and I still do it (though not as much as I’d like, but that’s due to Real Life issues more than anything else).
Thing is, for me, I love exploring the characters I care about. It’s both a challenge and a tribute, in a way, and I doubt I’ll ever really quit the fandom.
That said… while I’d love to eventually write original fiction, I would never, ever pull to publish. Those stories were written specifically for the Twilight fandom. I’d feel like I was being an Indian giver if I were to pull my stuff and turn around to publish it. I’ve been told several times I could easily publish original work, and maybe I could. But it won’t ever happen on the back of stuff that started as fanfiction.
Of course, if I’m to write original work, it’d help if there was anyone actually “talking” to me, and so far no characters are. If and when they do, I’ll happily listen to them.
I’m with Kerry, too, in that it’ll be more difficult for new fic authors to get the kind of support I’ve been privy to within the fandom. And as someone else pointed out, a lot of the fandom is based on volunteer time. I, myself, have helped a lot of authors with their stuff, and I’d be more than a little miffed to find my freely given time be taken advantage of in that way. I’m more than willing to help, even with things that are going to be published as original fic (several of my friends will attest to that, I’m sure), but I want to have the choice.
ETA: Also, like so many others, if it hadn’t been for fanfiction, I’d never have come across M/M fiction, and I’d never have gotten the books I now have. Everything has its time and place.
Hey Karin
This is what I don’t understand. So many readers and writers are loyal to their fandoms yet some of the writers pull a 180 without regard for the feelings of the other members. Where is the loyalty?
I keep hoping that authors who are considering pulling up stakes and publishing their fanfiction will consider the consequences for new fanfic authors, who will never be able to get the same help they received.
And then there are those who fully acknowledge and embrace their fanfic-roots, too.
I don’t think it’s fanfic specific, though, the doing a 180-thing, I mean. It happens in other areas, too. Unfortunate as that may be.
There’s the rub. I don’t know that many of them to. Couldn’t tell you for sure, because as far as I’m aware at least, none of the folks I’ve worked with have done a 180.
I will say that those authors whom I enjoyed reading in the fandom and are striking out on their own with original fic (sans pulling fic) have my full support and I’m right here with my pom-poms cheering them on 😀
Another thing, something that’s fairly Twilight specific, I think, since you asked when it’s okay to turn fanfic into original fic. Within Twilight, there are generally two kinds of fic: AU, where people remain within the realm of vampires and werewolves that Mrs. Meyers established, and AH. Ah being All Human fics. That right there makes it a hell of a lot easier to go on your own, because the sky’s pretty much the limit, there. If your story’s strong enough to stand on its own and you actively work to make the necessary changes to the basics of the characters and their environment (unlike what’s been done in 50 Shades, as far as I’ve been able to tell, but that’s an anthill to poke at another day) then I don’t have too big of an issue with turning it into original fiction. Caveat being, it isn’t a (mostly) completed fic and doesn’t get pulled (or stay online as fanfiction).
What’s cheap to me (and I’ve seen this within fanfiction itself, too) is when you basically copy/paste your fanfiction into “original” work, and only change out a character (or in this case, names). That’s just being lazy, and it does not make me want to read any other words by that author. I actually run a rec-site of my own within the fandom, so I kinda know what you’re up against in a fashion.
Hi Karin
I had to learn so much about fanfiction over the past few months since I noticed how many f/f books we were being asked to review and I’m still learning.
I still have a ways to go on this learning curve. 🙂 I hope it will either get easier, or authors will stop pulling down their fanfic and submitting the stories to publishers as original fiction, which will make reviewers’ jobs a lot easier.
However, 50 Shades shone a bright light on how much money can be made by converting fanfic, and I guarantee that many more authors will believe that they can make a killing the same way as Ms James, so this issue will not go away.
That’s what readers are paying for in many cases.
I think you can see my email address, right? Contact me, so we can talk about things? Hopefully it might help you.
<blockquote.However, 50 Shades shone a bright light on how much money can be made by converting fanfic, and I guarantee that many more authors will believe that they can make a killing the same way as Ms James, so this issue will not go away.
You’re absolutely right. This issue isn’t going to go away. Especially considering the err, so called quality of that particular…book.
I read a couple of chapters that Amazon provided free, and was not impressed. I still can’t believe Ms James was paid this much money for something I won’t pay five cents for. I’m not in the right business apparently because I can’t spot a winner! 😯
I’ll be in touch. 🙂
LOL I’m just glad I never read it as fanfiction, because what little I’d read there was just… yeah. Then when I read an excerpt of the actual book, I was even happier about it. Oy! Then again, if she can do it, then I don’t think I’d have issues, myself 😉 If I were to ever get to that point, anyway.
I found your contact email, so shot one off already. Hope it got to the right place, anyway
Coming from fandom as well, I agree with Kirsten. It does feel like fandom comes down piecemeal. I think the best case would be if an author leaves their fanfic untouched and does their original work from scratch. But on the other hand, how can I begrudge someone their chance at getting their foot in the door or at potential success? At that point it all becomes a question of honesty. Tell us this work was originally ‘blah/blah’ or something that tells us it was originally offered for free in another format. Then people can decide what to do from there. They can take a chance on reused fanfic just as much as they can take a chance on someone’s original story.
For me personally, I like my fanfic as fanfic. I don’t want to read converted versions. I feel some personality gets lost in the transition. I want to either read the original fanfic or an original story. But that’s just me.
I came from fanfic into original fiction and I agree with most people here. I would hate to buy a book (and I have gotten a book before like this) where I open it up, start reading, and then, it is like ‘wait a minute, this sounds familiar’. There was a book that what little I read was a word for word, just name and occupation changed, of a Due South story. The side effect of finding this is that I have not read the due South story again, even though I loved it. It just felt like cheating. The story was AU, but not THAT AU. I have read an ‘original’ starsky and hutch story where I said to myself ‘well, we just need Huggy’ and he showed up. I have also read other original stories that I have later found out might be based or taken from fandoms I don’t read. However, I have also ran across at least one book, I was reading, loving it, then came across a scene that it was like, OKAY, I now know who the author is 😀 BUT that was the ONLY scene, not long, that was taken from a fanfic, the rest of the book was original, as far as I can tell. (I have the fanfic scene came from) To me, that is fine.
What I would like to see is a list somewhere (and I doubt authors would let this happen) of all the published stories that were originally fanfic and what fandom they came from. I have read some REALLLY good AU fanfic (the Magnificent quest in the Mag 7 fandom comes to mind) that really isn’t fanfic with much more than names and associations (7 characters that are friends and have certain names) Other AUs, even if they are wildy AU are still too much entrenched in the fandom to be converted (at least to me)
Anyway, I hope that made sense, and that is how I feel about it.
I also forgot to mention original free fiction to original paid fiction. I do have a slight issue with this, but not that much, provided the author DOESN’T change the story too much (editing for errors and changing minor things is fine), it is their work after all, but just recently I got a book by an author I REALLY liked, and it was a story I really liked, I have it in free original form, and it is almost completely different. A friend told me about the same author’s long series which I liked and have in free form where she is taking one of the books and was (and may still) put a threesome in (I think as the main ‘pairing’) and pretty much change the story almost completely. To me this is the same with the fanfic. If I bought the books of an author who had their fiction free and then published it it would be because one of three (or combo of them) main reasons: 1. I really liked the story and want to read it in paperback version anywhere I am (I don’t have any ebook reader except my computer) 2. I liked the story and wanted to have a relatively error free version or 3. I loved the book and wanted to help support the author. However, completely changing the story or changing key elements to me is like saying ‘here is a book you liked’ and then buying that book and finding out it just had the same cover.
Again, does this make sense? Thought of that after I posted the other and just wanted to add it.
I know what (and possibly who) you are talking about.
I also don’t like it when the rewrite is “worse” than the original.
I recently bought a book based on a recommendation that was a fanfic of Spartacus: Blood and Sand.
I love fanfic but I felt ripped off. The problem wasn’t the characters. One was so complete OOC that I couldn’t recognise who it was supposed to be and, if it hadn’t been for the “blue, blue eyes” of the second I wouldn’t have known who it was. The problem was the world building. They used exactly the same terminology, speech patterns, buildings, etc as the TV show.
That is not what I buy a book for.
Though I’m an infrequent lurker of your site, I felt compelled to give you my 0.02 regarding fic-turned-pro and how that may or may not affect the way you guys review books on this site.
Full disclosure: I’ve been in Fandom for 20 years, more or less, both as a writer of fic as well as reader. At the present time, my ereader has about 530 “books” out of which 480 are novel-length fic. The remaining 50 are a mix of YA and M/M books.
While I almost understand your confusion and frustration with M/M books that began as fanfic, I have to admit to feeling a little puzzled myself by this opinion (shared by several of the commenters as well.) Mostly because, well, whether or not you want to accept it, all fic is ORIGINAL fic. Yes. All of it. Mind you, I’m not saying that all of it is good (there are some pretty terrible-to-outright-bad stories out there), just that all of it is original. Even if the story is a by-the-numbers retelling of “official” canon.
Why?
Because fanfic is a tranformative work. That is, Transformative works are creative works about characters or settings created by fans of the original work, rather than by the original creators. The fact that people don’t sit down to write because they’re expecting monetary gain but because they want the idea of Male Character A from a police TV show smooching Male Character B from the same show.
FWIW, I do know several fanfic writers who “turned pro” by taking down a story, filing off the numbers and selling it as an original novel. Am I bothered by this?
Nope. The stories (again, even though they might or might not be based on canonical events) are theirs to do as their please. Just like with books that didn’t start as fic, I always have the choice to spend my money on those books or not.
I don’t really care where a book originated from. Good stories are good stories, period.
Besides, there are a LOT of classical and modern novels and stories that are nothing more than a transformative work or even professional-grade fanfic. Here are 3 examples: Pride and Prejudice and Zombies (mash-up of a Jane Austen book), Jasper Fforde’s Thursday Next series (crossover and AU profic) and Foe (which is a twist on Robinson Crusoe).
Listen, in the end, this is YOUR site and, like I said at the beginning of this admittedly long comment, I’m a sporadic lurker. I just wanted to voice my disappointment at your dismissal of M/M books because of their fannish beginnings.
Luce
Thanks for writing.
I do realize that there are many pros and cons on this issue as indicated by the widely disparate comments on this post, and the jury is out as to whether:
1. Fanfic is original fiction
2. Readers should pay for these books, some of which are still available free on the internet
3. Reviewers should review these stories
4. People in the fandoms should feel betrayed after helping to write stories only to see them taken down, the serial numbers filed off, and sold as pro.
There are of course many other issues that have been addressed here by commenters who are much more knowledgeable about fan fic than I could ever be.
My issue is simple. If a story was previously fan fic I think it should be noted in the blurb so that we know this BEFORE we decide to review it. Ofttimes we find out from other readers who were upset at paying for a book we recommend which turned out to be fan fic.
Recently I myself realized, after reading a review, that the author of the book didn’t even bother to change the plot, names and characterizations from those in the television series where she had lifted the entire story. This story was previously fan fic. I understand that the rules in the fandoms are not the same as pro fiction, but if you’re selling someone else’s intellectual property as your own I call that plagiarism – not original work.
BTW I have no problem with fan fiction if it’s a good story. I recently reviewed an AU book that I loved which was formerly fan fic, but it was the author’s original work and not attached to a fandom.
There are hundreds of books that we can’t review on this site because of a lack of resources. Because the site is so popular we receive review requests for the majority of new releases. As more and more fan fic stories flood the market, if we review all of these books this reduces the number of books that I consider to be original (i.e. those that didn’t start out as fan fiction) that we can review. I’m not dismissing fan fiction – I’m simply stating that we have limited resources and the majority of readers prefer to read original stories, not fan fiction, (unless they are members of a fandom) just as I prefer to review original stories.
I’ve published a fanfic with the numbers filed off. However, the fanfic in question was an original storywhich I’ve turned into a wildly AU fanfic, because back in the days, I didn’t have the self-confidence to publish anything original. Original-turned-fanfic-turned original.
— Can you get your money back from the publisher if you can prove it was fanfic?
If the published work does not infringe any copyrights and can therefore be sold legally, then why should (general) you? If the original creator of the work the fanfic was based on doesn’t claim any compensation, then why should a reader? Because it used to be available for free on the internet once? Because you feel it’s unethical? I don’t think so.
— Reviewers on the site need to know which stories are original fiction unconnected to a fandom — and vice versa — before we post our reviews.
Fair enough; why not just put up a disclaimer that you’ll only review books that are absolutely original and not connected with fanfic or fandom in any way? I think most authors would be honest about it (at least I hope so). You’d have fewer books to sift through; you’d be surprised just how many authors and their work have a fanfic/fandom connection.
I wrote LOTR fanfic, and by doing so, I taught myself the basic skills of writing dialogue and creating characters. The feedback from my readers and my beta helped me to avoid stereotypes and tropes.
I write RNotC fanfic; that’s how I discovered my love for writing historical m/m. Researching historical details for my fanfic helped be gain the knowledge which I now use for my original work. I don’t feel I ripped off J.R.R. Tolkien or Disney, though.
My stories were always very much AU, so my original workwould probably slip under your radar. But I don’t want to slip under anybody’s radar: writing fanfic helped me to learn the trade, fandom gave me the platform to present my work and encouraged me to become a writer. So I feel a lot of gratitude, and I’ll stand by every story I’ve written, even the overly sappy and grammatically questionable ones.
Hm, I could have swore that amongst several comments that came to my mail box yesterday on this thread was the comment about Shakespeare being just like fanfiction writers taking the plots from other writers. I am trying to read all the comments again but just cant find this comment, sorry. I want to respond anyway, because I kid you not, I was *waiting* till somebody would bring up Shakespeare. I stopped waiting, but yesterday this thread suddenly got some traffic again, so here I am :).
So, I just want to say this – please tell me that people are not seriously comparing what Shakespeare did to what several people on this thread including myself seem to find objectionable in taking NOT AU fanfic, changing the names, barely, not even trying to change the plot and publishing it as its original work.
I had seen Shakespeare being brought up in the previous round of this discussion elsewhere inspired by the infamous comments of teaching writers how to turn their fanfiction in the original work and headdesk was my only response to that.
What do you think or do you care at all? Of course a much better solution would be to write an original story, but what the heck, that’s probably too much creative work
Well, thanks for the insult, Wave. Writing a good fanfic is every bit as much “creative work” as writing anything else, because a good fanfic IS an original story… inspired usually by a film or tv sseries. And the trick to taking fanfic to pro is that the characters need to be re-created, because the reader won’t have the TV series as a background.
I know this because my roots are in fanfic and I am not ashamed of it. Before con-crit became considered ‘flaming,’ fandom was a superb writers’ workshop. (Now, it’s mostly a mutual flattery society, which I think is why we see so much awful fan fiction from prima donnas who don’t want to learn to write decent English.)
As far as ‘previous editions,’ my publishers were informed of the early versions and included in the contract that any previous editions were taken down. That’s only fair.
How do you review former fanfic? Same as you’d review anything else. Is it a good story? Does it make sense? Because, believe me, probably half the books you’ve reviewed ARE recycled fanfic.
To use an example of how a fanfic idea can become an original story, consider the TV series Alias Smith and Jones. It was fanfic, of a sort, based on Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid. At least, that was according to an interview with its creator which I read decades ago.
When people start promoting their work AS FANFIC, and asking for money? That’s when the lawyers come in, because that’s someone horning in on an established reputation to sell their own stuff. And when people take classics of literature and rewrite them — I’m thinking of the glut of butchered Austen novels — then I’ll decline to read, because I think that’s plagiarism, plain and simple.
But if you’ve never been inspired by someone’s story to write a story of your own, with a little “what if” twist… you may be rushing to judgement on this issue.
I learned to write in fanzines. That was before the Internet existed, so you won’t see much of my early work, unless I decide to mine the zines for plots. But if I do, I doubt you’ll recognize the characters because I never did fanfic in the Sentinel or Buffy universes — which I think is where most of the paranormals are coming from.
This reminds me of that stupid quarrel over whether women can write men and vice versa. It’s all about the writing. Is the writing any good?
Lee
I’m not trying to insult anyone who wrote or still writes fan fic and if I did I apologise.
I do understand that fan fiction is an art form of its own but I wish it could be kept in the fandoms rather than being sold as pro fic which I’m told goes against the principles of the fandoms. Many members of the fandoms are upset because they helped write these stories which the authors are now peddling as pro fic, and they feel used by the writers.
However the reason I’m trying to stay away from converted fanfic as much as I can (and I know that we have reviewed many fan fic turn pro stories on this site) is exactly the example I gave to Luce. The author I mentioned, (and she’s not that different from other former fan fic authors who have released pro fic recently), didn’t even bother to alter the plot, names and characterizations from those in the television series where she had lifted the entire story. If I weren’t a fan of the television series Stargate Atlantis I wouldn’t have recognized that it was not her original work. This is the problem that we’re having when we review former fanfic – some of it is outright plagiarism and we’re expected to review these stories. We find out afterwards that these books are not the writer’s original work – that she has stolen not just the idea but the guts of the story. I’m not talking about taking the germ of an idea from television or someone else’s books and massaging it into a new story, I’m referring to stealing entire plots and characterizions – the only difference being the names of the stories.
I thought that this fan fic issue was beaten into the ground with all the differing opinions expressed when I posted it on May 4 and everyone had a kick at the can – both pro and con. Obviously someone is now using my post to write her own essay. I wish she had done so when this topic was live.
I’ll repeat what I said before: I wish that the book blurbs would indicate which stories were former fan fic, since I’m tired of having this pointed out time and again by other readers who don’t want to buy these recycled stories.
The author I mentioned, (and she’s not that different from other former fan fic authors who have released pro fic recently), didn’t even bother to alter the plot, names and characterizations from those in the television series where she had lifted the entire story.
Exactly. That’s bad writing and plagiarism to boot.
When members of a fan group actually help write a story then the author has no right to sell it without her co-authors’ permission. But there’s a big difference between discussing a story idea and helping to write it. I know someone who was royally miffed that I did not give her co-author credit (on a fanfiction, not a published story) because I had lunch with her one afternoon and told her about the story idea. She actually considered her “input” the same as collaboration. It’s NOT. No writers’ group could ever function if every person who discussed a story idea had earned a byline. “Oh, it’d be so sexay if you got Jack, Daniel, and Sam into bed together!” is not a significant story contribution.
It’s been my experience that fanfic writers who are most helpful and supportive are the ones least likely to try to drag the crab who wants to move out into the wider world back into the bucket — that’s a reference to Terry Pratchett’s “Unseen Academicals.” Nobody is obligated to keep fan fiction up forever. Fanfic was originally published in fanzines, most of which are out of print.
Bad fan fiction is bad writing, and publishers who accept it should require editors who know the fandom and won’t let the writers get away with laziness.
Fandom is a marvelous place to play. But it’s hardly fair to expect everyone to stay there for their entire lives. The world changes. People change. People move on. It’s understandable that some folks want to keep their fannish community a stable center in the changing world, but that is just not realistic.
I was looking through my old Trek zines recently, and realizing that I would never read them again and should probably sell them off – let someone else enjoy them. Because I don’t read much fanfic anymore, I don’t write it, unless it’s a quickie 100-word joke piece. I’d beta for a friend, but as someone remarked recently — someone who knew the fandom a couple of my stories are based on — the characters changed when I wrote the pro version, and are no longer the guys who inspired me. They’ve moved on, too.
I’m not interested in having the reviewers on this site spending most of their time reviewing plagiarised books and movies, which is what we seem to be getting from a lot of the authors who are transforming their fanfic into pro fic. As I said before, I would like some indication in the blurbs that these books were previously fan fiction as this would give us the opportunity to decide before whether we should review them or not. We have very few resources and I would like to ensure that we use those resources to review as many “original” stories as we can. When we find pro fic that doesn’t appear to stolen from someone else’s intellectual property we would review them as time permits.
You could be right that a lot of books already reviewed on the site are fan fiction, but the number of new M/M books being released every week has passed beyond the point where we can review even a fraction of new releases, and I would like to see most of the reviews dedicated to what I consider to be “original” work, not something rehashed from fan fiction. The majority of readers who are regulars on this site have expressed this opinion since it pisses them off to buy a book we recommend only to find out later that it was rehashed fan fiction and that some of the stories are still available free on the Internet.
I think I have said all that I can about fan fiction and nothing useful can be served by keeping this post open. It seems that someone has recently used my post as a springboard to writing her own post; this has resulted in a spate of new comments over the past couple of days. If readers want to comment on her post I’m sure they know where to find it and it would probably be a good thing if the comments stay on her blog or site, rather than spilling over here. I don’t have the time to respond to new comments and everything has been said on this topic 6 weeks ago IMO that’s relevant to my post. I’m also going on vacation and I don’t want to return to 25 or more new comments on this post which I would have to answer. So, much as I’m interested in everyone’s views on this topic, this post is now closed to comments.