Just over a month ago I invited you to vote on the level of sex you personally wished to have in your M/M romances. Of the 10 categories (and some were almost identical, which was deliberate) this is how you voted:
Of the over 1000 readers who read the post, almost 500 of you voted.
54% said –
I want a balance – I enjoy a good story but I love the hot sex too.
40% said:
I think the sex in M/M romances should advance the plot, otherwise it’s just porn by another name.
On the other side of the spectrum only 1 person wanted these books to be wall to wall sex, and 3% said they found M/M romances without lots of sex to be boring.
Which brings me to this question. If 40% of readers said they thought the sex in M/M romances should advance the plot otherwise it was just porn by another name, why are books with less than a heat level of 5 (or 3 depending on the publisher’s rating scale) not selling?
Authors and publishers complain that this genre has been ghettoized by re-sellers like Amazon and ARe because all of these books are categorized on their websites as erotic romances, regardless whether or not there’s any sex in them, so authors have a tough job from the get-go selling their books to the mainstream public. When we (M/M readers) don’t buy “sweet” romances with minimal sex it’s a double blow to the authors. Now there seems to be an expectation on the part of new M/M readers that these romances will all be erotic or even veer into erotica and PWP. Where did they get that impression, I wonder?
A few of our best authors who write books with very little sex or none at all are thinking of abandoning M/M romances altogether (see the comments on the original post) because, despite saying how much you enjoy their stories and admire their writing, you won’t buy their books in sufficient numbers to make it worth their while to stick around. 🙁 Anemic sales don’t offer much encouragement.
We all like different books and there’s nothing wrong with erotic books — I read a lot of them and love some of them — but I want to read books that tell a story without depending on the hot sex which sometimes is used to mask the fact that there is no story. In my book 🙂 the sex should advance the plot and not be the plot. According to this small poll many of you seem to agree. I hope you will continue voting (you can only vote once) so that the numbers and opinions are representative of a large enough segment of M/M readers. The votes are anonymous so you can be honest. :wave:
My personal opinion is that there’s enough room for sweet as well as sexy romances in our genre and it would be a pity if the authors who write books that are less erotic felt that they weren’t appreciated, and left. Thanks for voting guys.
The people who like wall to wall sex probably wouldn’t bother coming to a review sight that focuses on things like plot and characterization anyway, but I still think there’s a big difference between erotica and romance and I think these companies are just hurting themselves by making it harder for readers to find what they’re looking for. I guess the idea would be for them to change their categorization because I buy the stuff I like and it’s not like I’m going to change my buying patterns to purposely include more or less sex. I admit to not being very daring with my buying patterns–I tend to just buy everything by certain favorite authors and otherwise go for the top-rated stuff on this site or whatever I can borrow using Lendle (which means I end up reading the occasional terrible, terrible book).
Hi Squeak
You’re absolutely right that people who just want the hot sex won’t come to a review site like this one which concentrates on plot and character development. Many publishers rate the heat level of their books because they realize that a lot of readers use that rating for book purchases. I’m one of these readers who goes to the other extreme and I have rarely been disappointed.
Like many readers I also have authors who are auto buy until they disappoint me so that works too. Unfortunately because I live in Canada we don’t have the luxury of Lendle. 🙁
I can take it or leave it…I’ve read some amazing m/m stories with little or no sex, for example Jeremy Pack’s To Touch the Stars. I don’t think that sex in any form would have made the book any better. In fact, I think it would have taken away from it. But then there are books that the scenes are so hot that the pages could be on fire, Mercy Celeste’s Behind Iron Lace, that I couldn’t imagine the story without sex. I think it really depends on the author and the subject of the book. As long as there’s a story with an interesting plot…I’m up for reading it 🙂
Like you I have had experience with both types of M/M books and some plots such as BDSM tend to have a lot more sex than others. I find that if I stick to certain authors for books that publishers rate at a heat level of 5, the writing and the plot make for an excellent combination and an enjoyable book.
One thing I have found is that a high percentage of the sex in M/M books is so badly written that I skip over it and end up just reading about a half or less of the book, which is a waste but that’s just me. If the sex advances the plot then I would be unlikely to skip it. It takes a really good author to write a compelling sex scene.
I recently read one truly incredible M/M book, one I knew from the first page was going to take me on a rollicking, well-written adventure. One of those books that stands out when someone asks, “Have you read anything great recently?” But the sex scenes almost ruined it for me.
I literally (truly, literally. And as an aside, I hate how misused that word has become, that one has to specify when it’s used as defined in the dictionary :curse: ) had to skim the sex scenes with my eyes squinted in order to be able to continue to enjoy the rest of the awesome story.
I’m one of the 40% who said I think the sex in M/M romances should advance the plot, otherwise it’s just porn by another name.. But in this case, I don’t think it was necessarily an issue of not advancing the plot, but for whatever reason the sex scenes were poorly written despite the rest being so great.
I know what you mean Jess. One of the reasons I avoid M/M books with a heat rating of 5 (or 3 at another publisher) is that I find the sex is so badly written it spoils the book for me.
Very few of our authors can write an exciting sex scene (I can probably count them on one hand).
As an aside, I read a sex scene in Third you Die by Scott Sherman that gave me goose bumps – it was that incredible, and the rest of the book was just as good. But that’s an exception.
“why are books with less than a heat level of 5 (or 3 depending on the publisher’s rating scale) not selling?”
I think we’ve said this before, but I wonder if buyers are equating the heat level with book quality. I mean who wouldn’t choose a 5 star book over a 1 star? I find myself doing that very thing at times and I don’t care if there’s any sex in a book.
I generally try to ignore the heat level if its given, but I do always look for a review (here first) or somewhere on the Internet before buying a book.
Tj
A few publishers have told me that when their authors see that books with a heat level of 1 aren’t selling, and they feel it in their royalty payments, they very quickly start writing books that have a lot more sex. Readers know what those numbers mean and in no way do they equate them to rating stars.
If this genre is all about the sex and minimal plot then we should say so and not pretend otherwise, and those readers like you and I who are looking for something different can go back to general fiction and mysteries, which we both love.
It’s frustrating that the more some writers try to give this genre credibility, it all comes down to the amount of sex in the books. If that’s what the genre has evolved into, publishers and authors shouldn’t complain about M/M romances being ghettoized. It’s more than just being about the sexual orientation of the MCs, it’s that some of these books are erotica with no actual plot.
I love some of the books that have a high level of sex but those are actual stories with a plot, great characterization, prose and dialogue.
This is just MHO so take it with a grain of salt or three. But I think the main reason your poll results don’t match what’s actually happening out there is because even as popular as this site is, you’re reaching a tiny minority of readers. Even though I think probably more readers of gay romance buy online as opposed to the general romance reading population, still, the vast majority of those readers of gay romance have probably never been here before. Most likely the extent of their online interaction regarding gay romance is buying it on Amazon. So you’re not getting a scientific sampling. Your results DO match up with your readership here. I answered the poll, and I know I want plot and character development with my fictional sex, no matter how much or little of it there is 🙂
That’s a very good thought Ally. I purchased gay themed and later on M/M books for many years trusting that Amazon’s reviews were done by real people who’ve actually read the books that they are reviewing. I imagine that most people do that too.
Hi Tj
After reading about the latest author/reviewer/publisher collusion scandal I’m wondering if I can continue to trust those rah rah reviews on Amazon. However I, too, purchase books on Amazon that we haven’t reviewed here, with mixed results.
I actually didn’t even think about how Amazon’s reviews enter into the equation — I was more thinking about the differing wants/needs/expectations of readers who maybe buy mostly print books, and don’t spend so much time online — but you’re probably right about the reviews also. A lot of readers most likely read only the Amazon reviews, if they even bother with those. Personally, when I read a review I’m only looking for an idea of what the book’s about. I’ve learned the hard way that hardly anybody on earth actually shares my opinions about any particular book O_O
Hi Ally
But I think the main reason your poll results don’t match what’s actually happening out there is because even as popular as this site is, you’re reaching a tiny minority of readers
I realize that although this is probably the most popular M/M review site, a lot of people check out the reviews on Amazon (some of us who review here also review on Amazon). If nothing else, what I was hoping for in this survey was an indication from other readers of what they’re looking for when buying M/M romances. I will keep this poll open as long as people continue to vote and I’m pleased to see that many readers (at least those who frequent this site) are looking for stories that have a plot rather than erotica.
Only time will tell how representative these results are across the board. However, it would be a shame if those authors who write books that contain very little or no sex were driven out of this genre because readers didn’t support them even though they say they admire their writing and love their books. Many times we don’t realize the consequences of our buying decisions.
Since this site has so many M/M followers I sometimes try to get a sense of what a small percentage of readers think about different elements in the genre. Obviously we’re not Amazon nor do we pretend to be, but the people who come here are mainly interested in M/M books rather than the full range of different genres offered for sale by re-sellers.
Thanks for voting Ally.
I don’t understand the heat level being so important. 😕 I mean sometimes it is really nice to know what to expect heat-wise from a book because I am in the mood for something hot or for something sweet. But in my experience, these heat level ratings are not always how I would rate the book. I am much more interested in ratings on the book overall by other readers, preferably with an opinion on why a book worked or not. So if the heat level info were dropped and only overall ratings shown that would be fine with me and much more helpful.
What I do expect is a good, believable love story that is the main focus of the plot. If that is told without a lot of sex, fine with me. If it is told with a lot of sex, fine with me but I do want some plot in there.
So, I tend to buy certain authors because I really like their work, I “research” new to me authors by reading reviews and sometimes by visiting their homepage (if they have one) and reading free stuff there if available to find out if I like their style and I tend to buy from publishers that I have had good experiences with.
Hi Andrea
The reason why the heat levels are important to the publisher and author is because that’s generally how a lot of readers (maybe the majority :???:)decide which books to buy. It seems most M/M readers are looking for “hot” books, and not many are interested in actual plots, great characterizations, dialogue or prose the same way they would be if the books were general fiction or fantasy, or a murder mystery written by Stephen King.
Readers know that a heat level of 5 does not equate to a rating star of 5, in fact these heat levels are most of the time in inverse proportion to rating levels. 🙁
Some authors whose books tend to have lots of sex are story tellers and I know that plot wise I can depend on them to bring it, so they are auto buys for me.
Conversely, I enjoy many books that don’t contain any sex or very little because, again, the authors are story tellers. I thought that was what most of us wanted – an enjoyable story – at least I’m hoping that we’re all looking for.
Hmm, while I enjoy spicier books at some times, and sweet(er) at others, I don’t get why you would want to read a badly written book or one with a bad (completely non-existent) plot. I mean if I buy a book, I try to get something that is worthwhile reading because I spent a) money on it and b) time reading it (and yes, I agree, lots of sex and good writing/plot are not mutually exclusive thank God 😀 ). Now I know that different people want different things – I only read certain genres (for example, there is no way I would read horror, no matter how well written) but shouldn’t that open the market to a wide variety of m/m romance (m/f certainly offers a wide variety)? Because as far as I know, sales of m/m are going up, aren’t they?
And why class all m/m romances as erotica? Why not just put them all in one category (like m/m romance) and then open subcategories? Don’t they do that with m/f and it works for everybody involved? 😕
I think Squeak’s and Ally’s points about the bias of this particular sample is the most probable explanation for your results.
That said, I think Tj’s comment about readers equating heat level ratings with star ratings also probably explains a great deal of the phenomenon on a wider scale (including, obviously, among readers here 🙂 ). Even if one is actively trying to ignore the heat rating, I think we humans tend to be subconsciously influenced by it anyway (and yes, that is my Psychology degree talking 😉 )
Hi Jess
I agree that someone looking for wall to wall sex in their books would not come to a review site like this one, because we’re not selling what they’re buying. I wouldn’t go into a menswear store for a pair of panties. Wait a minute, what am I saying? I could probably get a better quality of women’s underwear at a high end menswear store in certain areas in Toronto. :blush: 😆
That said, I think Tj’s comment about readers equating heat level ratings with star ratings also probably explains a great deal of the phenomenon on a wider scale (including, obviously, among readers here
I don’t believe that the readers misunderstand the heat levels on the publishers sites, or equate them with rating stars. Many readers have told me that they want to read “hot” books so that’s what they buy, regardless whether the books are just a series of sex scenes strung together.
You’re right that we’re influenced by the heat ratings, and that’s exactly what the publishers intend when they publish them on their sites. Some readers look at the heat rating and rush out to buy these books, and they’re not at all concerned if the blurb makes any sense, as long as there’s lots and lots of the “good stuff”.
Most of the time I’m influenced by the heat rating, but I go in the opposite direction unless I know the author’s books and have enjoyed them in the past. From time to time I try new authors and am pleasantly surprised, but not often.
Too late to edit my original comment, but what I should have added is that to eliminate the conflation of heat- and star-ratings, sellers should replace heat-ratings of stars, peppers, whatever, with words. Say, something like: ‘sweet’, ‘mildly hot’, ‘super hot’, etc. (Note: I made those suggested ratings up on the spot, they are not necessarily the wording that would best stand up to empirical testing… I figure as long as I’m dusting off my degree, I might as well do it right. 😀 )
You may be on to something. I just went over to ARe, and there are stars right above chili peppers (I think?) To the casual eye, it does feel like more is better.
I’ve never noticed heat ratings. By whose standards is the heat rated? One person’s hot is another one’s meh. For example, is it mandatory for the books that feature a lot of sex to have a shower sex scene? This does nothing for me. My experience has been along the lines of “you’re blocking the water! I’m cold! Ouch,I hit my knee on the faucet! Let’s get a band-aid and go to bed.” Maybe it’s different when both participants are men. It has gotten to the point when I start a book I wonder if there is a shower scene. That’s just my particular niggle.
Hi Deedles
I love shower scenes, but only if a murder is involved and it’s a movie. 🙂
Actually the ratings are devised by the publishers and if you believe the authors, many of them are told to spice up their manuscripts when the editors think they are too bland.
I don’t think sex and plot are mutually exclusive. “I don’t want wall to wall sex” doesn’t necessarily translate into “I want sweet romance.” Some of the best books I’ve read in the genre have been sexy reads AND had compelling plots. That’s the ideal for me as a reader.
That said, I’ll read anything; I tend to go for premise over heat level when choosing what to read next. But certainly a lot of sex in a book is not a problem per se; it only bothers me when it exists to the exclusion of things like plot and character development, or when the characters don’t spend enough time out of bed for me to believe they’re in love. (In a book that is supposed to be a romance, that is. If I wanted erotica, that’s what I’d buy, you know?)
The issue with all m/m getting painted with the erotica brush is that it means that readers who might be curious about the genre avoid it because they aren’t interested in reading about explicit sex, but it means they’re missing out on some really fantastic novels that aren’t explicit.
Although, actually, we’re always quick to jump to, “But not all books are like that…” which sort of shoves the sexy books aside, which isn’t really fair, either, because some of those explicit books also have well-rounded characters and complex plots and are really great reads.
I don’t think we’re saying that sex and plot are mutually exclusive but when the sex is the plot that’s when I set the book aside. I enjoy books with high sex content just like a lot of other readers e.g. I enjoy BDSM which tends to have lots of sex, but I also enjoy fantasy which typically has little or no sex.
It all comes down to the writing and much as I hate to say this a lot of M/M authors can’t write sex scenes. They play “follow the leader” and copy elements of sex scenes they have seen in other books which are badly written so we have a vicious circle of poorly written sex. Some of them are so badly written that after a page or so I skip them altogether. I wonder sometimes how some writers can make something as exciting as sex so boring.
I look for a writer who is a storyteller, someone whose books make me forget everything else, and if that book has a lot of sex then it’s just as enjoyable as one without any sex. It’s all in the writing.
I love plotty books which tend not to have lots and lots of sex, but occasionally I enjoy fluff as well because a steady diet of anything becomes boring. 😯
I don’t think I’ve ever bought an m/m for the sex, mostly I read this genre because I like guys and not girls, some of my favourites have zero sex scenes 🙂
That said, as long as it’s not entirely PWP or the sex scenes are a sorta out of the blue WTF moment, I like them 🙂
This is a discussion my co-author and good friend, Shira Anthony have all the time. Tab ‘A’ into Slot ‘B’ sex is not what I like to write or to read no matter who it is (M/M, M/F, or F/F). The story has to be the driver of the book, unless, your story is exclusively about the sex act. Writing a sensual scene is much more satisfying than the sex act itself–in my humble opinion. I want a story that I can immerse myself in, get lost in, and get lost with the characters. It isn’t always about sex–it about the story and the relationship.
Hi Venona
Writing a sensual scene is much more satisfying than the sex act itself–in my humble opinion. I want a story that I can immerse myself in, get lost in, and get lost with the characters. It isn’t always about sex–it about the story and the relationship.
I agree with you 100% and I wish more M/M romances used this principle. 😮
I don’t think the results you list above indicate the conflict you seem to think they do. To me the results imply that most of the responders want story and characterization, and also want some sex. When a romance has no sex at all I am kind of disappointed, because I want to see how the two main characters interact together. That fits right in with the predominant responses (wanting a balance and wanting the sex to advance the plot).
My guess is that going from zero sex scenes to one sex scene would have a much bigger impact than going from three to four (or even from three to six).
Anyway, Amazon doesn’t do those heat rating things. Neither does Audible. I usually don’t see a heat rating before I buy a book, and that must be true of many others giving Amazon’s dominance.
That’s a great point about Amazon not doing heat ratings and being responsible for so many sales. 🙂 I wonder how Amazon sales compare to sales elsewhere in terms of books with higher and lower heat ratings?
If that data were available (and my impression is Amazon does not release that sort of thing) that could make for a fun correlational study that could potentially shed some very interesting light on this…
But considering Amazon lumps all M/M books into the “erotic” category, it might not be as illuminating as I’d hope. Because readers might be buying “sweet” books there under the assumption that they’re erotic. Methinks we need a factor analysis or something. 😀
Hi Charming and Jess
I’m aware that Amazon doesn’t do heat ratings since I buy a lot of books from this re-seller, but as you said, all M/M is lumped into the erotic category so anyone buying these books would do so on the assumption that there was a fairly frequent sex quotient. In addition, many reviews on amazon mention the sex, so if someone were interested they would be able to figure it out.
Since I buy these books for the story and want to read about men in love with each other, and not for the sex, I’m not disappointed at all and can take it or leave it if there’s no sex in the M/M books I read (just as I’m not disappointed when I buy general fiction and there’s no sex). 🙂 In addition, because many of the sex scenes in these books are so badly written I usually skip them after reading the first one. Some M/M authors have told me that they are uncomfortable writing sex scenes between two (or three) gay men, and it shows. They won’t even go to a gay porn site or talk to their gay friends if they have any, to figure out what they don’t know or how to make the sex more interesting than tab A into slot B and 1, 2, 3 fingers.