From Goodreads: In the ‘Gay for You’ (GFY) genre, a character who was not previously gay, or at least didn’t know they were, meets ‘the one’ and embarks on a gay relationship with him/her. The implication is usually that one or both protagonists wouldn’t be in a same-sex relationship except with this one special person.
Recently, someone on one of my Facebook groups posted a solicitation looking for a good “Gay for You” novel and it bothered me, not as a writer or a reader, but as a gay man.
This post will probably cause some controversy, so I’d just like to say first of all that I am not trying here to convince anyone of what they should read or write, but simply to present my own and deeply personal perspective on why I am bothered by the whole “gay for you” thing.
For me, it’s not real. For me, it’s a bit of an insult to the many, many gay men and women who have struggled to define and accept their identities.
Over the years, I would venture to say I have known hundreds of gay men and women and been friends with
Here I am on my wedding day. Was I straight for her?
dozens of gay couples. Of those couples, do you know how many I am sure would say their union was the result of a “gay for you” epiphany or realization?
None. Zero. Zilch.
Looking at my own life, I could probably shape it into a gay for you story. I met a wonderful and beautiful woman when I was in college. We fell in love, had mad sex, and later got engaged and then married in a big summer wedding. It was magic and I thought I’d found true happiness. Things only got better when our son was born.
Fast forward to eight or so years later, when I would meet the first man I would fall in love with. This could be construed as a “gay for you” moment. After all, none of my friends or family knew I was gay (or if they did, they weren’t saying) and I had pretty much followed the roadmap for young, straight, suburban husband.
And then I met Ron—and the stars aligned. I was in love—with a man.
Gay for you? No way. The truth of the matter is I had struggled since adolescence with same-sex feelings. But I fought with myself. I hated myself. I thought of killing myself. I struggled like an animal in a trap to free myself from these shameful, secret longings. I consulted therapists. I looked into ex-gay programs.
The long and short of it was that I was a man filled with self-loathing, a man who wore a mask to hide the person buried deep in the closet. I was a man terrified of himself, of being something I desperately did not want to be. The thing is, to an outsider, it may have looked like, when I met Ron, I became gay for him, leaving behind my straight life.
But here’s the difference: I didn’t become gay for anyone. I was, as Lady Gaga sings, born that way. I can remember, as far back as early childhood, having inexplicable feelings for other boys, feelings I masked as wanting to be friends with this or that particular boy. With adolescence, the feelings became more pronounced, more sexual. Still, I denied them—and sometimes it was only in the relief and horror of dreams were these feelings ever allowed to come to the fore.
The crucial point I am trying to make is that I doubt very much that anyone becomes gay for someone else. Sexual attraction doesn’t work that way (or if, in some rare case it does, it’s the exception, not the rule). And when I run across such a plot device in a book, I seldom finish it. The book loses credibility for me.
Can you have characters that struggle with their sexual identities? Absolutely. I am one of those characters. Can you have characters that maybe bury their sexuality so deeply that they might be surprised when the force of someone’s magnetism is so powerful it breaks down the barriers and causes the person to lose a battle they were most likely already losing? Yes. There’s drama there; there’s fascinating, credible reading.
A crucial distinction I learned on my long, protracted, and often very painful journey from the closet to proud and self-accepting gay man was that knowing is one thing and accepting is something else entirely. I can’t deny that I had these feelings, these urges, these attractions, from a very young age, but I hid them from myself and, under no circumstances, would I ever accept them.
See, I told myself, I could change. I could get married and I could be, well, straight for her.
It didn’t work. The harder I fought myself, the harder my inner core persisted in staying alive.
My sexual identity was a hard-won battle. And I guess when I hear of a gay for you novel, I cringe, because those books simply don’t get it. They’re not real.
At least not for me. How about for you? And why?
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Hi Rick,
Great post 🙂
Reading your post, you make it seem as if you were straight for you. (For a little while at least) why don’t you believe it’s not possible the other way around? I think if a person is open and loving the gender of their partner will never be an issue. But that’s real life 🙂
In books, it’s the escapism of having a man/woman entering into a same sex relationship that makes it more interesting and makes the story complex. I am bi-sexual and most people just think I’m lazy and don’t want to make the choice. I just find both men and women attractive enough to want them.
Anyway, I have found very few authors have got the GFY story believable, so maybe that is why most people don’t think it’s possible.
Tash
Hey Tash – Hope you don’t mind me putting in my two-cents. I think the important difference with you is that you are BI sexual and not gay or straight. This allows you to be “straight” for someone or “gay” for someone. But if a person is GAY, they aren’t going to be able to be straight for anyone. Like Rick, I too found a woman, left Chicago to come to Kansas City to be with her and had a child. I loved her. DEEPLY.
She and I are not together anymore. Because I finally came to see that I was gay. I had thought that her gender shouldn’t make a difference. I loved her. So what if she was a female! I figured of could love the “gender of [my] partner [didn’t need to] be an issue.” I thought, well if my lover was paralyzed from the waist down and couldn’t have sex ever again, wouldn’t I still love them? Of course I would. So who cared if she had female parts instead of male parts?
But then I finally came to realize that it did make a difference. Because being gay was more than just preferring a penis over a vagina, a man’s chest over breasts, a rough jaw over a smooth one.
For me I found “gay” wasn’t sex. Or not just sex. It was spirit. Soul. I realized that I had fooled myself. That I was NEVER “in-love” with my daughter’s mother. That I had never been “in-love” with a female in my entire life, although I had dated women, had sex with women, lived with women, and loved women deeply. I still do. It is no mistake that out of my four closest friends, three are women.
But to my shock I saw that every time I had been “in-love”… As I looked back at my entire life, from toddler to that fateful day… Every time I was “in-love” it was with a male. Every true crush (and not hero crushes) it was with a male. Every time my heart had gone pitter-pat and I got rushes of emotion that made my soul sing, it was over a male. I had LOVED women. But it was more like…hmmmm….what I feel for my mother. Powerful and deep and REAL and it was/is love.
But not in-love.
And no one should settle for anything less.
I think any male/male couple that gets together where one is straight? The could stay together for awhile. They could love each other deeply. But finally the gay man is doomed to have happen to him the same thing that happens to women who marry gay men. They will be alone. Because that male partner is going to have to wake up and be where he can be truly and deeply fulfilled. In the case of a “gay for you” relationship, that straight man is ultimately going to need to be with a woman.
My two cents and I hope you don’t mind.
Great post, BG. You and I are definitely on the same page. Thank you for sharing your thoughts so openly and eloquently.
Thanks for the comment, Tash. If I made it seem I was “straight” for anyone, I apologize. I never was. What I was was conflicted, closeted, and in denial. Like you, I do not find a story that is TRULY GFY credible; I think if it ever happens in real life (and, allowing for the amazing variations in the human condition, I would never rule it out completely) it happens rarely. I think most stories, as author Marie Sexton, has said are actually stories that are about someone being OUT for you, which I find infinitely more palatable. Because therein does lie MY own story.
I’ve encountered at least two real-life”straight before fandom” stories which aren’t quite “gay for you” but close.
In both cases, middle aged women who had previously assumed they were heterosexual, never had any sexual feelings or romantic feelings for a woman before, met a woman through fandom, and fell head over heels in love with her. In both cases, it was reciprocated.
I think it has to do more with age than anything else. Both the women were 7-10 years older than I was. Apparently late-blooming lesbianism was not an uncommon occurrence in women of that generation and my mother’s.
But men? Most of them know early, as far as I’ve seen. I don’t find GFY stories particularly realistic (although a friend is writing a rather hot Marcus Flint/Percy Weasley GFY in which both of them have wives and kids and proper families, but never left off the “schoolboy fooling around”) but then I’m no a contemporary fan to start with, and most of them tend to be contemporaries.
Angelia, I like your comment about gender difference and orientation. I have known several women who have identified as straight, then had a full-on female/female relationship (or more than one) and then gone back to being straight again (or not). I think this kind of thing seldom happens with gay men (although a straight man may fool around with another guy, the taboo is so large that it would rarely go beyond a sexual encounter). Why this is the case I don’t know, but I could guess that woman might be more fluid in their sexuality and able to incorporate strong affection into carnal feelings as well. But I am only guessing here… I just know that I have known at least three women in my life who were primarily straight, but did have lesbian relationships at some point. As I think of each of those three now, one is single and dating men only, the other is in a long term committed relationship with a man, and the third married her highschool sweetheart and has been with him for years now.
I’ve known a couple of straight men who have had intense connections and/or relationships with other guys, but who ultimately determined that their sexual preference was really for women. In one case the guy was pretty young; the other was a bit older and more sure of his sexuality but found himself drawn to a man who had made it clear he was attracted. In both those cases it sounds like the attraction was primarily intellectual or emotional, at least that’s how they described it. Obviously there was a sexual interest too, but that part didn’t last so long. The men they were involved with were gay and very compelling flirts… overall the way these guys talked about their experiences was that they had made them quite certain they were Definitely Not Gay but that they’d learned and grown from the relationships, were not repelled by the sex and came out the other end very relaxed and certain about their sexuality. I know straight women who’ve had short lesbian affairs who say much the same thing.
I also know of a man who had a sexual/emotional relationship with another man that lasted a shortish length of time which seemed to clarify his sexuality as mostly-entirely-straight. It was the sex that made that clear to him more than the emotional relationship which he found very meaningful. The sex, however, was not what he wanted and liked, so the relationship ended as friends. He’s very open about his experience and supportive of all sexualities, but has fallen into the “prefers women” category after his experience. Unlike your friends, though, he didn’t really enjoy the sex.
Rick, thanks so much for saying it like it is, it was about time someone set the record straight. No pun intended.
The other issue in many m/m books that really rub my feathers the wrong way is the perfect gay world the characters live in, where everybody accepts and celebrates the couple’s love, and not getting out of the closet before it was actually silly, because in the end, there was no real reason to stay closeted.
Yes, every day in our country a new state legalizes same sex marriages, but there is a long way to go for real acceptance. I don’t think that writing a fantasy world would make it come true, or ignoring the reality many gay people must face every day with their families and coworkers will transmute tolerance into true support.
:biglove:
I find that most “gay-for-you” stories are more accurately described as “out-for-you.” In nearly every case, the character in question has had same-sex interest or attraction but hasn’t acted on it–as in your story–or has only done so in secret.
I will admit to a weakness for the idea of someone being so intensely attracted to another person that gender doesn’t matter. I also believe that attitude and perspective can affect people’s reactions to their own innate sexuality, which can manifest as what looks like a later-in-life “change” in sexuality.
For a true “gay-for-you” story, though, I do have to suspend some disbelief. 🙂
I think “out for you” would be perfect and it applies to many novels, I suspect, labeled gay for you.
I was going to say what Shae just said. 🙂
The bigger point, for me, is that most of these “Gay for You” books are truly mislabeled. So when someone puts down “Gay for You” they also put down the “Out for You” books. Having written two novels with Out for You themes…. Yeah. You get my drift. 😉
Oh and I don’t believe in suddenly converting your sexuality overnight just by randomly meeting someone. While sexuality is fluid, it’s already there whether you know it or not. I think realizations coming along and circumstances changing make those “A-ha!” moments happen, but there are no “Something for Someone” events in real life.
Thank you for saying this! I find GFY stories insulting to those who have struggled to define who they are. In general I avoid them and yes I am OK with reading out for you stories but I give wide berth to GFY stories. I do have to say that I give some room to GFY stories where the guys are in their early 20s. If the story is set up that individuals are just starting to explore their sexuality then I am a bit more lenient.
To me the worst offense with some GFY stories is when after the relationship is established the attraction to the person of the same sex is just to that one person. I have been happily married for 12 years and I have to tell you that I am not blind. I check out other guys (and girls), the attraction is there but it is not something I would ever act on. So, if you find your partner attractive how can you not find the same attributes on others attractive as well? That just doesn’t make sense in my book.
I love reading books about people falling in love and maintaining that love in a realistic way Realizing that you like men in your 40s or being attracted to just one person is not realistic to me.
I have seen stories where what you mention, where the attraction is solely to one person, and I find them hard to swallow. Love is one thing, attraction is another and even those most deeply in the closet cannot always control where their gaze may go or their dreams may end up. Thanks for the comment!
I agree with Shae! I think “gay for you” is really “out for you”.
The issue I have with “gay for you” is that it implies someone can flick a switch, and suddenly everything changes. I also don’t like that “gay for you” implies “and nobody else”. As though it’s true love that’s somehow overcome a character’s former straightness. If that true love ends, does the character just jump back into hetero relationships like nothing ever happened? Doubtful.
In the only novel of mine that I’ve seen called GFY, it was never my intention that the character was straight beforehand. Just angry, self-loathing, and oblivious. And if I ever get organised enough to write a sequel, I’ll make it clear that yes, he can look at other guys sexually, and yes, he does. 🙂
“In the only novel of mine that I’ve seen called GFY, it was never my intention that the character was straight beforehand.”
It’s funny you should mention this because I’ve had a book labeled as GFY and I’ve never been able to figure out why. The guy was gay from the get go. Maybe it because he was a virgin? Not sure. Anyway, I’m glad to see someone else had a book labeled GFY by a reader even though it was not a GFY story.
Lol! Okay, my character told himself he wasn’t gay, but he also told himself a lot of other lies. 😀
Ah! That makes a tiny itty bit more sense! Mine had no such thing. In fact, he was dreaming of men from childhood, so, I dunno!
Hello Everyone,
Rick, thanks for introducing me to GayForYou….first I heard of it. I’m 59 and when I was younger (maybe 10 and on) I’d hear adults talk about men who suddenly woke up one day and realized he became gay overnight. I’m sure those men just came to terms with the issue; but I believed it at the time. Over time I figured out I’m bisexual, which sometimes is like being in ‘no-person’s land’, stuck in the middle. I’m over that but it was a stage. Being analytical I’d say GFY is ‘possible’ but extremely unlikely.
Since I was in 3rd grade I knew I liked boys but in a conservative environment I hid it. In 6th grade I got into girls but boy-love always hovered, but it made it easier to play-straight. At 22 I fell in love with my best friend (guy), and we had one sexual event and we both dove back into the closet.
Many writers (books, films, plays, etc.) are ignorant to reality or are after the entertainment dollar. Just look at what’s on TV and in movies. As a retired police officer I refuse to watch cop TV or movies. PTSD aside, it’s because of the falsities (did I just invent that word?). Such bullshit! Stupidity and insult comes in when they won’t alter their work after being told of the errors. That’s one reason I love Jon Michaelsen. Years ago he wrote a story that had a few false concepts of police work. When I shared my feelings with him (as his beta reader) he eagerly made changes, thus my huge respect for him. He ‘got it’. Unless any person has insight into a scene, profession or lifestyle, he/she will believe (for the most part) what is served or has been served to him/her.
Maybe ‘Gay For You’ belongs in ‘fantasy’. Entertainment but still fantasy.
Sincerely,
David
All romance, to an extent, is fantasy, but you still need to create a credible world in which a reader can immerse himself or herself. If you’re being pulled out of the story because you feel like the author isn’t sure or doesn’t know what he/she is talking about, then everybody loses.
Rick
GFY is another of those M/M romance myths, like gay men humping each other 24/7 in books – in the kitchen, in the hallway, in the garden, on the couch and on every other surface before they hit the bed. I don’t recall ever reading about a gay man in an M/M romance who suffered from sexual dysfunction. Maybe they don’t, but it would be nice to read every once in a while about real issues gay men may have, not necessarily sexual. I know these books are fantasies but I have to suspend disbelief in the majority of the books, especially cop stories. One of the reasons I love your books is because they are real and address important real life issues.
Great post Rick – Out For You works for me.
Thanks, Wave. All fiction requires some suspension of disbelief, but when it takes you so far out of reality that you are no longer lost in the story, then the problems come in. And all that humping? I’m not so sure that’s a myth–especially not for new lovers. LOL.
I don’t believe in gay-for-you. At all. Being bisexual, I think that there are combinations of factors that define attraction, and I’m not entirely sure that one of them is even gender. You are an excellent example – you fell in love with a woman, and then a man. But (barring the fact that you’re married), what would happen if you fell in love again with a woman? Sexuality is a fluid, dynamic thing. It merely means you’re human and who you fall in love with is more than just a sum of their…er…parts. 😉
What I find most troubling about Gay For You is that it feels Bi-Phobic to me. Why not just have a bi-character who never really realized his/her bisexual self before this person came along? Why make it all one or another? Gay or straight? Either or? I get that for you personally you realized that you were gay, but there are plenty of bisexual people in this world and a Gay For You character ignores them completely when, in fact, a bisexual character solves every problem with regards to this situation. Bisexuality isn’t a 50/50 thing, like 50% attracted to guys and 50% to girls. It’s a scale where people fall somewhere between two extremes, and it is possible, imo, that a guy can be mostly attracted to women and fall for a guy, because they fall on the bi-scale somewhere closer to the het side of things, but that doesn’t mean they are GFY. It means they are bi.
I think GFY is all about a pseudo-mating-for-life, near-dub-con sort of thing. Emotional dub-con, so to speak. I think some people think it is hot for a guy who normally wouldn’t even look twice at a guy to fall so hard for him that he’s Gay For Him. But, as you say, the reality just doesn’t add up. It’s more likely he’s bisexual to some degree or another and had never noticed it before.
I will say I think that there are so many permutations of relationships. There are people who can fuck anything that walks, but only fall in love with women/men. There are people who fall in love with both sexes, but have a strong sexual preference for one or the other. There are people who only feel true sexual desire for people they have immense caring for, and I can imagine a scenario where they have only felt that kind of caring for one or two people before, and both have been female, and thus they are surprised to feel those emotions for a man, and to maybe have only felt them for that one man ever in their life. But, again, that’s a combination of the way their sexuality expresses itself–limited in number of people interested in–combined with bisexuality, imo. It’s not really GFY.
Wow, I had more to say about this than I thought! LOL!
And I apparently have even more to say! I am mostly straight, as in really almost entirely straight, but there have been one, maybe two women that I’d have been willing to have a sexual affair with if I was not in a monogamous relationship. I also knew, though, that the lack of penis would be an eventual deal-breaker for me. To me, I was not Gay For These Women. I was expressing/feeling the bisexual feelings that almost all of us have in some amount or another. Mine are basically nonexistent, making me very much mostly straight, and I don’t identify as bisexual. But, again, there was a woman (maybe two) I’d have had some smokin’ hot lesbian sex with for a few nights, and I’d never classify that feeling as GFY. It was…what it was, and I always thought it was about the small bent of bisexuality in me.
I agree with you. A lot of these GFY stories would be more believable if they embraced that sexuality is a continuum. I can deal with someone being in a heterosexual relationship for most of their life and then in a homosexual one later in life if it was in the set up that they feel some attraction for both sexes or because the individual was afraid to admit the truth.
But in the set up that it is all or nothing (was 100% straight and now totally gay and only for that person to boot) that’s unrealistic.
I have to agree with you Rick – an 100% straight man going GFY doesn’t seem very likely from my perspective. It took me many painful years of deep soul searching to come to accept that yes, I was gay and that there was no way to change it – try as I might.
I dated women in my teens and early 20’s in a vain attempt to suppress who I was. I did care for the women I dated, but I’m not bisexual nor would I say that I was straight for them. I would say it was more a strong sex drive at that point in my life that made these relationships possible.
It’s sad that I had to go this path, but in the 60’s and 70’s it was a different world. I have hope for future generations that they will be able to just be who they are.
I have to say that I have heard this opinion many times from my friends who are gay. I am a straight as an arrow woman, so no I don’t know anything personally about being a gay man, except what my gay male friends tell me. I totally agree with you Rick. If a man “all of the sudden” appears to turn gay because of that one perfect man, I would have to assume he has always been gay and either a) hiding it or b) hiding from himself. Ofcourse we should remember, most of the books that are written on the subject are fiction and for entertainment. I do enjoy them, but I try to just live in the moment of that book. I can assume it would be a different experience for a gay man to read the same story and not enjoy it the way I do.
Couldn’t agree more. I always get the impression that gay for you might appeal more to straight people who don’t have close gay friends in real life, but the trope itself kinda creeps me out. The closest to gay for you I can enjoy are stories with characters who are deeply in denial about their sexuality, but only when the author shows us that there is something odd about their heterosexual experiences (like in Melanie Tushmore’s ‘Crucifox’). The character might not acknowledge their sexuality (if they are alexithymic or something), but I as a reader want to see the signs from the very beginning.
I’ve been wondering how to reply to this as someone who has been involved in a same sex relationship later in life. I guess I think that attraction isn’t as cut and dried as gay/straight. Inner emotion dealing with that attraction is something else completely. I’ve written GFY in Nothing Ever Happens and been criticised for my character not coming to terms with it after 8 years. Again I don’t think it is as easy as acknowledging you are attracted to the same sex. For some people the change in sexual orientation doesn’t rest easy, for others it is a relief. I speak from my own personal experience. I do understand GFY, but I want to read and understand the emotions that go with it in GFY stories.
If I’ve learned anything in my 50+ years, it’s to never rule anything out. In the realm of human experience, anything is possible. Is GYF the norm? Probably (and most likely) not, but it is possible. I think the stories are so popular because they aren’t our perception of the norm and readers are generally looking to escape the everyday, ordinary. I don’t really think we will know what is truly normal until we can create an environment in which people do not have to struggle with their sexual identity. It is what it is and until people feel comfortable being who they are and what they are, do we really have a true picture of what is normal? Defining normal has baffled the human race for ages. It’s a statistical illusion that we try to capture by filling forms with little check-off boxes. Personally, I look forward to time when we can do away with all the check-off boxes and can just be “human”.
Well, the fact of the matter is, I love reading GFY. Although I do tend to prefer the ones that lean more towards “out for you,” because there has to be a certain amount of foreshadowing to make it believable. As a young gay man, I lived in small towns and the number of gay men I ran into could be counted on both hands. The end result of this was that I fell in love with my straight friends over and over again. Some freaked out and broke my heart by tossing me out of their lives. Some accepted it and we formed strangely intimate relationships that bordered on disturbing, when I look back on them. But there was always that fantasy in the back of my mind — as unhealthy as I knew it was — that my friend would eventually realized he loved me too. So reading a GFY novel is a way of satisfying that fantasy.
I loved this response, Jamie. It was honest and made my heart ache for young Jamie for his entirely understandable feelings that are so relate-able, because who hasn’t been in love with someone that they fantasized would love them back, even though they knew it would never happen?
I am really enjoying reading all of your thoughts on this topic. They are all coming to my e-mailbox. Thanks, Jamie, for alerting me to something I haven’t considered before, but even you acknowledge it’s a “fantasy.” And I agree with all the others who posted about sexuality being on a continuum and not the same for everyone, as well as the notion that sexuality can be fluid and sexual and love emotions can be a complex brew.
I am answering in general now because I have had so much trouble with the site today. I have tried logging in countless times with no luck. So, please know I am enjoying all your responses and am glad it’s sparking some conversation. I just wanted you to know that, if I appear silent, it’s not because I’m ignoring the conversation, but because of technical difficulties with getting on here.
I agree, it’s largely a fantasy. But it’s one I happen to like, if it’s done well. 😀
I guess because we’re writing romance, we enjoy all kinds of tropes. I don’t believe in werewolves but that doesn’t stop me from enjoying a shifter novel. It’s not credible, but in the hands of a decent writer, it’s enjoyable.
My take on this is romance novels are fantasy. The people in them are fantasy women and fantasy men. They’re not bound by the same physical laws we are, they aren’t intended to be true representatives of the world we live in. Characters don’t have to put their work lives on hold to have all that sex in the office, deadlines don’t come due, unless it’s a plot point. There’s a billionaire for every secret baby. They have sex on horseback and in airplanes and on motorcycles. As realistic as we’d like them to be, we don’t talk about stretch marks or hemorrhoids or tacky, thick yellow toenails.
I like to think it boils down to the reader. I am someone who very much likes a gay for you for three reasons. One, is that the epiphany makes for a breathless rush. It’s like first love, all over again. Two, when I write a character falling in love in a new way later in life, I can take a sexually experienced adult and write a first-time sex scene for them. Everything is new, and different, and a little bit scary. I get to go into that first-timer’s head and I don’t have to explain away a thirty-year-old virgin, or write about barely post-pubescent individuals to tell the story. The third reason is that like Beauty and the Beast, where she falls in love with the prince’s false identity and plans to love him despite his appearance, the GFY transcends the physical. Love becomes a deeply personal attraction of the very essence of one person for another.
(And in erotica, the principle parties simply MacGyver the physical.)
I figure I’m writing m/m romance, not gay fiction and not (especially) gay literature. Because of this, the expectation of the reader is key, and the reader’s expectation is that love transcends everything. Love breaks down emotional limitations, physical problems, natural law, and in the case of the gay for you, sexual identity.
I think the reason the trope exists, the reason I like it when it’s written well, is because romance readers love a story where love conquers all.
I’m curious why you might prefer a GFY storyline over a “discovering I’m bisexual late in life” storyline? (Also, yes, I’m all over this thread today because I’m massively bored at work! 🙂 )
That’s how I feel pretty much – I do not mind some out for you stories, where the guy repressed his attraction to the men and it came out eventually. But even there I often want to shake the character and tell him – bisexual is not a dirty word. Gah.
When you write a werewolf story, you are setting up an imaginary universe where werewolves exist. Most people agree that they don’t exist in the real world, but it’s fun to imagine them (along with vampires, witches, wizards, and so on) and disappear into a universe where they do exist, if only for a little while. That kind of fantasy is escapism and I appreciate it. I don’t think you can make an analogy between these types of fantasies and contemporary gay romance, which is supposed to be set, at least ostensibly, in the real world. It’s all about the world you’ve built.
I appreciate hearing why you like GFY stories, ZAM (and I do appreciate YOU), but as a gay man, I think there should be some sort of responsibility to not completely leave reality behind if you are looking to portray a very large and real segment of society. It doesn’t have to be gay fiction or gay lit, it just has to come across as real, so that the reader, just as in a true fantasy, can immerse himself or herself, in your world and not be pulled out of it by something that doesn’t ring true.
I agree with you about so much of what you said and suspect we’re on the same page–love conquers all, the blush of first love, even transcending the physical (which I did in my own Beauty and the Beast retake, BEAU AND THE BEAST), but I do think you need to ground those wonderful ideals in some sort of world that at least attempts to run the same as the world in which we live in. I think the fiction that emerges will be stronger because of it, and the romance just that much more compelling.
I guess it would be easy to say what I meant is gay people are like werewolves and we all know that isn’t true. What I’m saying is romance novels. True, honest to goodness HFN HEA romance novels are fantasy. 😀
People do in fact, live lives of quiet desperation to please those they love. All people who marry someone at 22 have to hope to God they still find their spouse physically attractive to them at 60. People spend time with people they love for a lot of different reason. They wish they could be everything the other person needs, they wish the person they love can be everything they need, and in fact, most of us fail. In fact, most real life love stories fail, and that’s why we celebrate the ones that work on Good Morning America. Amazing, couple stays together, huzzah!
😯
A compelling love story is one where people overcome whatever barriers there are to their happily ever after. Or happily for now.
I can think of very real, very compelling reasons why one man might love another romantically, quite apart from his sexuality, and why he might really, really want to be everything that man needs. I can see how that would lead to failure, and so it doesn’t make for a very good romance novel. The fact that you see this as insulting might be because you’re not considering the larger picture, that most relationships fail. People cheat every day, because they’re not getting what they need. People divorce all the time. People get bored. People fall in love with the baby sitter, the letter carrier, the milk man. Tragedy strikes and people grow apart, the world turns, and they don’t remember why they married someone in the first place. That’s the contemporary world we live in, but it’s not what readers want from romance novels.
So again I say, a believable story of GFY may require an HFN, because I doubt any relationship based on basic untruths can flourish long term, and OFY stories happen every single day. The fantasy of being the one woman a magnificent gay man wants enough to “go straight” for or the one man a wonderful straight man would get on his knees for, is only that. A fantasy. And I do think it’s very much like being the woman a king renounces his throne for or the quiet bookseller a famous movie star gives up fame for. Kings don’t do that. Moviestars don’t marry geeks, but in the end, all great stories begin with “what if…”
I suppose I’m just being a little contrary today, because what if we talked about women’s roles in popular romance fiction, and how women (who also make up a large and very real segment of society and are responsible for about 90 percent of romantic fiction) portray themselves…
Rick,
You gentle, passionate, articulate, sweet man. Thank you for your honesty here and I think you bring up a very good point and express it wonderfully. I think as time moves on and we become More accepted in society we will become more accepting of ourselves in a way. I think sexuality as more than just black and white I think there is a spectrum ….a whole color wheel if i may use that…that describes human sexuality. I think that people search so hard for validation. its so important for us as individuals to be acknowledged as such we cry out ‘please hear me.’, ‘please see me.’ ‘please validate who I am’. And we often beg of ourselves the same things and too often, deny ourselves the basic things we ask of people. As for the idea of ‘gay for you’, I agree….people may write about it, fantasize over it, even lust after it, after the notion of someone breaking all barriers to be with you, these ideas are nothing that we haven’t seen before just in different ways. The princess marries the pauper, Ariel marries the prince, beauty and the beast….and so on and so forth. As a gay man, who went through the some struggles you have, i sympathize with you. It does seem offensive a bit even though I’ve had ‘that friend’ who you just wish would see you how you saw them and if they’d let you hold them you’d simply die in their arms. and then I’ve had friends whose actions and the way they looked at you made you feel uncertain about their straight status. i can could.t two people who i may have made them think twice. anyway good post and sorry if disconnected….typed from phone.
Rick, I have known several relationships that ostensibly fall into the GFY category – I say ostensibly, because of course I can’t know what was going on in either person’s mind or life before they hooked up. I have had experiences with men who insisted they’d never had them before, and one or two developed a thing for me – but again, people aren’t always honest about that homo thing, are they? And I did know a guy who had no sexual relations (other than with himself) until he was in his mid twenties, and tried it with a male friend. If they’d become a couple, you’d have had a real life GFY story, but in fact, he became a male slut, hopped into bed with any willing male person.
But, if I may ruffle a few feathers here, I don’t see what the point is in the objections. Fiction is, well, fiction. The test is not whether it is mirroring reality, but is it convincing you it’s true. The point of Tolkein’s work is not whether there are hobbits and shires and orcs, but does he write them so well you believe them while you are reading. I have no problem with a GFY story so long as the writer makes it convincing. Let’s face it, most romance stories, gay or straight, are silly if you start looking too carefully. I want to be swept away. I’m okay with reality, I’m just never sure this is it.
You are very right when you say the trick is “convincing you it’s true.” And therein lies the rub. If I’m not convinced, then I’m not buying into the story and I’m not enjoying (or most likely even finishing it). I love good fiction, make no mistake. But I think comparing romance set in what is ostensibly the real world with books like THE HOBBIT is apples and oranges. They may both be fantasy to some degree, but they operate under completely different sets of internal logic. I go into the HOBBIT believing in elves and warlocks. But if James Patterson puts an elf in a police procedural, I am not buying it. Same thing when I go into the world of romance. For me, for the romance to work, I have to invest in the characters and believe that they’re real. Then I can root for love conquering all, for their happy-ever-after. I want to believe in THOSE fantasies, and you can convince me if you give me some semblance of reality in your fiction.
Since I started reading m/m I have had my share of browsing the internet for more information – where I found a couple of interesting blogs from men in their midforties. Gay men or bisexual men who have written how they never questioned their sexuality. They thought they were straight, they married young and later in their life discovered that they obviously weren’t as straight as they thought. Well, these could be the ones who surpressed any gay thoughts before but who knows? When they tell in their blogs that they discovered their attraction to men later in life, why should I question this?
I think we always try to categorize, put in boxes and label……but sexualtiy and love is something very fluid. So maybe there are a few men out there who really became “gay for someone”.
Just because we don’t know them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Or did you know that there are actually women who have ingrown testicles like the African sportler they now discovered?
In general I agree with the comment that most books labeled “GFY” are in reality “Out for you”. It’s also “just” a label and I don’t assume that it is intended to ignore the struggle many men had gone through.
And I have to say – I love ZAM’s approach, I love the possiblity to discover love and sexuality again a second time, new and different (I admit – I’m a huuuuge “Crossing Borders”-fan, Tristan made me feel butterflies like no one else, thanks)
Okay, forget Tolkein, and I am assuming you hated Who Killed Roger Rabbit? What about Mary Stewart, who wrote some of the most popular hetero romances of the fifties and sixties. Her heroes and heroines met (sometimes hating or fearing one another) and within hours were in love forever. No gay endings that I recall, but there were often significant
differences to overcome. On the face of it, they are really unbelievable, for the very same reasons you are citing – because it doesn’t happen like that in real life. It never stopped me from loving her books, and obvious millions of other reader had the same reaction. Face it, forget GFY – does anyone real have the kinds of experiences that we read about in most gay novels? REal life? Smells, farts, burps, awkward nose bumpings, a zillions clumsy moments that never happen in gay fiction – All those alpha males – where are they hiding? The too beautiful to be true -which, yes, they are. I’ve run across a few really big ones in my life, but most of them have been average (that’s how average got its name) and a few that were really teeny weenies. I don’t read fiction for true life, I read it for insights into the human condition (and of course for entertainment.) Anyone who thinks GFY isn’t telling them something about the human condition needs to do some meditating, because they are missing the point. It’s telling you an awful lot about the human sexual mentality, gay or straight. GFY is surely one of the most common of gay fantasies, even for guys who know it’s a fantasy.
Or, maybe I’ve just known a lot of really weird guys?
Great post there! I can definitely understand the feelings of frustrations. Although I think this is one thing where you can’t compare the literary ‘worlds’ with real life.
GFY is one of those literary devices used in romances that have nothing to do with real life even if the story is contemporary. Just like there are several other literary devices that don’t make sense in real life but just work in romance.
Personally I agree that ‘out for you’ is a much better description.
My own belief is that sexuality is a continuum, it’s more gray than black and white. Few people are 100% anything (whether gay, straight, conservative, liberal, religious…. yes, I know people who are a little bit religious). I believe that there are some men who can be attracted to certain types of guys, while not identifying as homosexual, and be attracted to a broader type of women also. Even within that framework there are those men who might be attracted to a certain type of guy one day but not the next. A few drinks can help. I understand Rick’s peeve against seeing so much of this in gay romantic literature, however. Perhaps it does seem like a cop out, avoiding the issues of what some men struggle with coming to terms with their homosexuality. But sometimes the struggle is about finding love, and for some men finding romantic love might be tapping into that small part of themselves that is homosexual. And there can lie an amazing love story. Kind of a masculinist love story, if you want. You might say it’s something like PRISON SEX without the confines of prison bars. Feminist writers have used the concepts of same-sex love in their fiction writing for decades, sometimes merely to make a point. If you look at “gay for you” beyond sex, it might be easier to accept and understand. Of course there are writers who are better able to draw out that emotion in the “straight” person who falls for a gay person than others. Good writers should make you believe ANYTHING. Thanks for the great post. Very interesting!
Shelter, I have always said that I believe the majority of people are born bisexual, with some at either end of the spectrum as gay or straight. Then life events, culture, etc shape a person’s sexuality into what it ultimately becomes.
Yes, Jason, I agree. And sometimes culture and life events prevent us from realizing that humans cannot be categorized like insects. There are many things I don’t understand in humans, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. We’ve become a culture that likes everything nicely packaged and easily understood: You’re either on the side of this or on the side of that. In this case, you are either gay or straight. The real complex world defies that narrow view. I’ve had too many experiences to assume otherwise.
I suppose that Ethan, my partner, could be put in the gay for you box. I was the first male he had ever been with. He did, however, always know he was attracted to both male and female. He had just never pursued a male before. He had an accepting family and two gay uncles, so it wasn’t that worry that kept him from it. Just worry over a different kind of relationship, different sex, I guess. So, since I was the one who finally got him to take the leap, I suppose I lured him to the dark side. 😀
~smooches~
I like some out for you stories – of the variety where the guy had repressed feelings for men and eventually it comes out, but really even in those stories sometimes I want to shake the character and tell him, Honey, bisexual is not a dirty word and you are bisexual. So yeah I need believability even if it is not real and sadly – magic flick of the wand and now I am gay was never believable to me.
Great post, as usual from Rick. Since I got here late, a lot of my thoughts have already been discussed.
I think GFY does occupy a spectrum, from ridiculous–which prompted this post–to the believable. It depends on the author how realistically it’s handled. Sometimes it’ s okay to enjoy a book that you know isn’t reality. Many m/m books seem as if the author doesn’t even know any gay people. Others are wonderful and if not entirely realistic, completely believable due to the quality of the writing/storytelling. I’m all about labeling content better to help readers find what they want.
I also agree it’s entirely possible to fall for someone of the same sex even if you never ever thought about it before. It happened to me in college with my straight best friend, even though I had a boyfriend at the time. I never ever told her, and never had the same feeling for another woman for a really long time. Then I did start thinking about where I fit along the rainbow, but in between I was definitely straight. If something had developed with the college friend, I would have considered it to be a genuine GFY experience. My attraction to her didn’t lead me to look for other women.
I also think that knowing gay people and reading gay/mm stories does expose a lot of readers to the possibilities, and I can see someone exploring and discovering something about themselves and maybe acting on it. Not exactly GFY, but still acknowledges that personal experience and connections can lead to previously unexpected results. How that reality gets translated to fiction depends on the author.
Hi Rick
This is a devastating and honest post, one of the best I’ve read here. The agonizing struggle you describe is one I am familiar with. With gay cousins and living and working with many gay men, I have heard many similar stories. One of my dearest straight, married male friends chose to confide in me many years ago. His kids had grown up and left home and the hole in his life and marriage became impossible to ignore.
His wife flipped out after he confessed his tentative feelings and did terrible things to him. She hired a hit man to disable his car, poisoned his food, threw salt all over his belongings…yeah. A terrible, terrible situation. I spent two years talking to him about it. Went to PFlag meetings with him. I introduced him to my cousin and they are still close but his wife started harassing my married cousin accusing him of trying to seduce her husband!
I was worried my friend would die before he could explore his new life.
Today he is happy and married to a wonderful man, but it took a long, long time. It was a process. It wasn’t overnight and it wasn’t instalove. He kissed a bunch of toads before he found his prince.
I based my character in the Phantom Lover series on his experience in part – with his full blessing. I’ve had many men tell me over the last few years how strongly this character resonates for them. For that I am grateful.
I still feel anguish for anyone, man or woman who goes through a life change like this. It takes bravery and heart. There are many people out there, organizations, therapists, friends, etc. who can help – but as we know there are many that don’t support and challenge – and sometimes seek to destroy.
Knowing the struggles some men I have known and loved have gone through, I personally have never liked the gay for you scenario because it makes light of a long and difficult process.
Just watching episodes of “Gigolos” makes it very clear how straight men feel about being merely naked near another man. They don’t get horny. They don’t jump their bones.
As for the gay-for-you-in-prison stories, don’t get me started. The straight men in prison who end up in gay relationships are not pretty, romantic stories. They are stories of rape and horror. Survival.
I want to thank you once again for sharing your truth.
Thank you for that, AJ. I really appreciate your sharing the heartache some of us go through in coming to terms with our orientation.
My point with this post is not to say that romance must reflect real life or that it cannot play with the tropes we have come to know and love within the genre. My own stories contain HEAs, love at first sight, finding that perfect “one” and other aspects of romance and not, sadly, always real life. And I agree that we need romance to be a fantasy, a way of escaping into a world where love can and often should be, joyous and perfect. I want to write those stories. I want to read them. All I’m saying is we’re writing about people and it’s our obligation to convince readers that they’re real, so they can escape into the world we created. Authentic doesn’t have to mean grim or depressing, but I think any fiction is enriched by a bedrock of truth.
On the issue of sexual identity and it’s flux in life, and the black and white social requirement for ‘gay’ or ‘straight’ here’s a Bi-Guide I wrote a few years ago. It’s too long post here but it’s on my blog, my posted website here (next to my German Shepherd’s pic.
I like it here; lots of nice, intelligent and polite people.
David
In the Land Called Oregon
Good post, Rick. As a ‘gold star fag’ I empathize with what you’re saying. I wrote a GFY novel (Desert Run) before I even knew what the term was. I didn’t find out that’s what the novel was until someone on Goodreads used the term. I wrote it thinking of the MC as a bisexual fully discovering that part of himself. While writing the book, I thought a lot about the work of James Kirkwood, one of my favorite gay writers of the 70s. Most of his books are in some way GFY – although they pre-date the term by decades. Like a lot of tropes this one really depends on how you handle it. If you write a book where the characters are basically – “Wow, men can have sex and fall in love! That’s amazing the thought never crossed my mind!” that’s pretty offensive to anyone who actually is gay or bi. But if you write a book where the emotional involvement of the characters pulls them in a direction which was always a possibility in some way then it can be interesting and worth reading.
What a great conversation! Thank you all for your contributions.
I agree that sexual orientation is more a spectrum than an either/or, with bisexuals left in some kind of no man’s/no woman’s land in the middle.
I was another man who tried “straight for you” and failed to make it work. My beef with “gay for you” is the suggestion that the character hadn’t been attracted to another man… ever. Not a flicker. In order to make that premise work for me he’d have to have such a weak libido that he’d never been nudged in that direction before, never even stirred to think about it.
Since my own drive is nowhere near that weak, I find it difficult to believe it is so for others. Yes, that’s a projection, and I’m comfortable with it even if it isn’t always accurate.
But so far as I can tell, the heat of sexual attraction occurs in a spectrum, too — say, from yummy/twisty warmth to raging mad fever. The way I see it, a man who has never felt even a yummy/twisty warmth for another man (or hasn’t been honest enough to admit to a yummy/twisty warmth for him) doesn’t deserve to go to bed with one in a raging mad fever. Or even in a rolling boil “wanna taste it” curiosity moment. That may be uncharitable of me, but there it is. :strike:
I think this is a very insightful and honest post, Rick, and I honestly think the truth of the matter is that one loves another person for what is inside of them, not their body parts. But it’s hard for some people to come to terms with the idea of loving someone who happens to be of the same sex, especially with societal pressures being as strong as they are. So they bury the truth and live a lie and tell themselves they aren’t gay, until the right person comes along. And then they aren’t gay for him/her – they’re free for him/her. Free to be who they are.
Great post, Rick.
Thanks, Julie. I agree with you, which is why, when I gave this post to Wave, she asked me how I could live all those years as a married, and sexually-active, “straight” husband. Was I faking? No, I wasn’t faking. I did and still do love that woman, and I always will. We created a child together and we have shared things I have never shared with anyone else. But was I, as I asked in the post, straight for her? No. I tried, Lord knows I tried to be, but ultimately, my true orientation won out. But, as you pointed out, love is love and I think that sex and love are two different things. Combined they can be wonderful, but they can also be mutually exclusive (i.e. as human beings we are capable of loving someone even if their body parts do not match up with what our core attractions are).
Hi Rick
An awesome thought provoking post. I confess that GFY/OFY is/are one of my fave tropes for the reasons in Zam’s comment. As a het female I know the difference between GFY & OFY but missed the subtleties in the details. Thanks for refining and defining in your usual eloquent way.
Rick,
Thanks for taking them time to write this. I am in the same boat as you on the GFY thing. While I do understand the appeal, for me personally, it’s just not my cup of tea. I’ve tried to read a couple of them and found myself rolling my eyes. Though I guess that really has more to do with the specific stories than the genre as a whole.
This kind of reminds me of the argument about supposed straight guys in gay porn… But that’s a whole ‘nother ball of wax.
thank you for a lovely and clearly thought provoking post. it’s pretty awe inspiring to see some of my favorite authors here and talking in a civil and brain bending manner. the conversation sis a nice frame for their books as i am encountering them. here is a cool link that explores some recent research on the differences in the range of male and female attraction: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
:0)
-kkm
Hey Rick,
Nice job with the posts although I do have a slightly different take on all of this and wonder if anyone feels the same way I do. So here we go. I simply believe that people are born sexual. In my opinion, society dictates to many whom it is ok or not ok with which to have sex. I also think If homosexuality was as accepted and “normal” as heterosexuality down in the man cave, the sports arenas or the PTA their would be many more gay or bisexual people. I have personally known several bi-curious men who say they are straight but have had on and off sexual relationships with men. Again in my humble opinion, if it were perfectly fine for men to fall in love with men and women to fall in love with women without being labeled as queer it would be much more prevalent. Don’t get me wrong, I think their are people who are definitely straight or gay but I also believe that their are a heck of a lot of bisexual people out there that never experience love with the same sex because they don’t want to be labeled. For me, if people are truly open minded, the sex of the person with whom they fall in love is irrelevant if they truly fall in love.
Rick, :bravo:
I’m a hard sell when it comes to this trope — in its truest form, that is — and have been from the time I discovered m/m romance. Lifelong straight dude without any previous inkling of same-sex attraction suddenly spins through a 180 and drops his pants as he rotates? Um, no. I can’t seem to ignore either the silliness of it or, worse yet, the insult inherent in it.
Part of the insult lies in a logical extension of the GFY trope: “straight for you.” (Because really, how can you entertain the possibility of one without entertaining the possibility of the other? They’re two sides of the same coin.) And SFY is a not-so-innocuous fantasy. In fact, it forms the very foundation of reparative therapy and the ex-gay movement.
So give me “out for you” and “bi-to-homo for you” and any other variation of self-discovery and -acceptance. But “WTF, you’ve waltzed into my life and reversed my sexual orientation”? I’ll continue to leave that one alone.
Not really addressed to anyone,
I have always viewed sexuality as something fluid. However, that is not to say that everyone’s sexuality is fluid. It’s odd when you think how sexual fluidity in women is more accepted than it is for men. Gay-For-You most likely rarely happens but it does and I have witnessed it firsthand. I personally don’t like reading them but I don’t have any problems with them. I take it for what they are – fantasies or in rare cases beautiful stories on how circumstances and the right person can change your whole life. I have struggled with my sexuality and I don’t believe Gay-For-You trivializes what I’ve been through. I believe people strongly refuse to believe it exist because they wrongly assume that it inherently contradicts the notion that homosexuality is genetic. Although it rarely happens it still happens and by rejecting its possibility and existence, you reject a small number of people. Isn’t it the same way as rejecting homosexuality because you don’t understand it?
I appreciate this post for giving voice to an important perspective that should be heard. It makes sense that GFY stories will turn off some readers, both for the suspension of disbelief required in reading, and for the fact they run counter to most LGBT individuals’ experiences. I tend to agree that such real-life stories rarely exist, though as we’ve read here, they do occur occasionally.
That said, I disagree with this: “I think there should be some sort of responsibility to not completely leave reality behind if you are looking to portray a very large and real segment of society.” For many readers, the romance genre is entirely about leaving reality behind. Z.A. Maxfield has brilliantly laid out some of the reasons the GFY trope appeals, particularly the third – love that transcends obstacles, physical and otherwise.
The majority of romance readers are women, who are typically more harshly judged on external factors (i.e. weight, appearance, etc.) than men. It’s no surprise women often ask their significant others questions like “would you still love me if I was fat?” They want reassurance they’d be loved for who they are on the inside, regardless of anything external.
GFY stories appeal to that yearning for a love that trumps all other considerations. A straight man finding his soul mate in another man is the pinnacle of love transcending all. Yes, it’s unrealistic, and doesn’t portray a large segment of society accurately. Much like (as Z.A. pointed out) a good deal of romance fiction doesn’t portray women accurately. In either case, I don’t think authors should or do try to portray an entire demographic; merely their own characters.
As readers, some will seek out stories with more realistic portrayals, while others are drawn to the very unreality of tropes such as GFY. Authors, like readers, will fall on both sides of spectrum. And I’m okay with that.
I want to clarify that I don’t believe being a man or woman is only external (obviously). It’s the pure idea of souls connecting and love triumphing – regardless of gender or orientation – that appeals.
Hi Rick! I found this an interesting post and discussion. I’ve not, that I’ve noticed, read a GFY story to date, but I’d like to ask why is it assumed it’s GFY and not that the character was Bi to begin with? In short I may have missed the GFY and just interpreted it differently.
Maybe it’s just because I’m Bi that I don’t assume a character that has previously only dated the opposite sex and starts dating the same sex is GFY. I automatically assume Bi and just found someone worth getting over the socialization for – probably because in real life that’s how it worked for me.
So are these books really GFY or is Bi just being ignored as a possibility? Really curious to hear how someone came up with GFY as a genre, actually. I’m an Anthropologist so I’m always curious when people classify something, how they came to the classification.
Thank you to anyone who explains this to me! 🙂
Rick, thank you for an interesting post. I think the main reason I don’t care for GFY stories (besides finding them too unbelievable) is because, as KZ Snow says:
“Part of the insult lies in a logical extension of the GFY trope: “straight for you.” (Because really, how can you entertain the possibility of one without entertaining the possibility of the other? They’re two sides of the same coin.) And SFY is a not-so-innocuous fantasy. In fact, it forms the very foundation of reparative therapy and the ex-gay movement.”
I’d be grateful if you could clarify the question which occurred to me as soon as I read your post: why do you identify as gay, rather than as bisexual?
Since you had a full, loving, relationship with a woman but now accept that you prefer men, obviously you are further along the continuum towards gay than towards straight, but surely the fact that you had such a long-term relationship demonstrates that you are bi rather than completely in the gay part of the spectrum?
Asking in this way, using “you” and your experience, sounds so intrusive and I apologise for that, but it has always been a question to which I’ve wanted to know the answer when I read about experiences like yours, and by writing this article you’ve given me an opportunity (and perhaps permission?) to ask it!
No, I am gay. I have always been gay, but through my youth and until I was in my thirties, I denied that part of myself and tried to live the life I thought was “right”. Yes, I loved (and still love) the woman I married; yes, we had good and frequent sex, but I was wearing a mask the whole time, running scared from who I really was. Once I accepted myself, I didn’t look back. Sex with a woman never happened again. So I’m not, nor have I ever been, bi. To me, orientation is not defined by action, but by attraction and I know now I am attracted to men. Does that make sense?
Yes, thank you. I suspect I may be confusing experience/history with attraction. Maybe one is only bisexual if one currently finds both men and women attractive. I have to be careful or else I’ll be suggesting that there are three boxes into which everyone is divided – straight, bisexual, or homosexual – whereas I see it more as a line from straight through bisexual to homosexual with lots of stops along it, much as described by David / biwriter.
I got a short story. Me looking in from the outside. Steve and Micheal meet. Steve is gay conservative not exactly out not exactly closet either. Micheal never been in a gay relationship what his feelings were before I have no clue. Steve is HIV positive. Micheal falls in love with Steve. They are together for 12 wonderful years when Steve dies of AIDS related complications. Micheal grieves continues to move in the gay community. Meets a very beautiful woman was lucky enough to fall in love again. They are still married a couple a kids. Not sure what all that means real story looking from the outside in.
It’s an escape for me as long as their story has plot and romance which there was in Steve and Micheal’s story it’s all good for me.
Turn the story around, married man’s wife dies from cancer, meets another man, realizes he’s in love, HEA…. Most people who read the gay romance genre would applaud that concept. But your original story idea might threaten and even anger them. It might have something to do with tribal warfare.
It was just a true story that looked from the outside like gay for you could happen maybe. I use to tease Michael that he was just Stevesexual.
Rick, I encourage you and everyone else to read a true story ( http://www.gayauthors.org/story/dank/itstartedwithbrian ) written by a young man in his death bed. I’m sure that cases like this are extremely rare, but I’m a believer, after reading this agonizing, heart wrenching story. The one thing that saddened me most after reading this story is that the two men didn’t get to have much time together, only three years. At least, in the short time they had together, they found happiness.
As I said, it’s a painful story to read. Horrible things happened to Sam, a bisexual man who fell in love with his childhood straight friend, that one never wishes on anyone. Have tons of tissues at hand for you will cry like a babe.
Warning: This story contains physical and emotional abuse and rape.
Even if you don’t believe it can happen, I still encourage you to read it. Thank You.
(Although the story says “Fiction” it is not)
Just in case there is any doubt, I’m including a link where you can read a message from the real Brian from “It Started With Brian”. Scroll down to message #72. His real name is John (Johnwut)… http://www.gayauthors.org/forums/topic/18705-it-started-with-brian/page-3?hl=%2Bdank#entry189163
Actually, one of the comments made by the man who took over the writing after “Sam” died, also talked about one of the reasons why it took Brian so long to come to terms with his feelings, and the reason was “Labels”, labels society impose of all of us.
Once the writer, DanK, wasn’t able to type anymore, he took pen and paper and left a series of life events and instructions for an internet friend and follower, Adam Phillips, to finish writing for him with the help of the real Brian. Because of Adam, we were able to read the story in its entirety.
Rush, thank you so much for posting the link to this amazing story. I spent the weekend immersed in it. My heart ached for them. However, I’m perplexed at his insistence that he’s not gay or bi. Do guys get a bye on those labels even if they fool around with their best friend or fellow football players? I’m a straight female ex-jock and I’ve never fooled around with a friend or teammate – never interested. While I believe Sam is the only guy he ever loved that way, the rest is labels and don’t take away from their poignant history.
I’ve written stories where one of the men suppressed his homosexual feelings, where the man was bi, and a GFY.
I’m writing romance, and like ZA, there is a huge element of fantasy involved.
My GFY involved werewolves – the man was straight but his inner wolf was gay. It was my way of trying to make more sense of the GFY trope. Both men fight their attractions, fight their involvement. It isn’t insta love but definitely insta lust.
I hear a lot of commenters here talking about fluidity of sexuality and being bi.
I wish bi were more accepted, especially here at this site, because I believe a lot of people fall into that spectrum and its rarely looked at by most m/m writers.
There are many realities and sexuality is a broad spectrum. I write romance – and I think I’ll write the stories I want to write. If readers don’t want to read them they don’t have to buy them, or review sites review them.
Lots of writers write tropes I don’t care for like secret babies and m/m/f with a committed gay couple who bring in a woman, but I’m not going to say it doesn’t happen. Ever. It might. People are complex.
I find it interesting that if Rick wrote about his life – including his struggles with being married and having sex with a woman, eventually finding his way to his true sexuality, it wouldn’t be reviewed at this site – due to having het sex portrayed.
We need to stop putting constraints on love. That’s what got us here in the first place – saying no you can’t and who you love is wrong.
That freedom and fantasy is why readers read our books.
Rick,
Thanks for such a great post. You summed up my feelings on the subject perfectly. The “gay for you” genre can be a great way to introduce characters struggling with new feelings and a new way of perceiving themselves (and being perceived by others), a true “fish out of water” experience, but I can’t help but feel it actually works to cheapen the experiences so many millions of men and women go through as they’re coming to terms with their sexuality. I feel it actually projects a lot of “straight” feelings onto queer identities because it is, perhaps, an easier way of rationalizing, understanding, and categorizing it, and perhaps even heteronormalizing the queer experience, in the same way that so much of the gay porn industry still celebrates the allure of “straight” performers and tries its hardest to downplay those who are less straight-acting and more obviously camp, effeminate (or butch, in the case of women), and, well… gay. Like “gay for you,” it sends a strong and undeniable message that straightness, or at least the ability to pass as straight, is more attractive than all-out queerness. I can’t count the number of GFY stories that have the “straight” protagonist offset by a love interest who is almost shockingly – and perhaps even cartoonishly – effeminate (to stick with the m/m example) by comparison.
But the vast majority of us, as you so articulately pointed out, do not simply wake up one day realizing we might be attracted to the opposite sex; in order to “switch teams” for a pretty face, those leanings must have already been there. While sometimes it does take that one special someone to make people admit to themselves the feelings they have always had on some level or another, it’s a very oversimplified portrayal that I wish didn’t dominate LGBTQ romance to such an extreme. It always brings me such joy when I read novels that celebrate queer characters who own their queerness from the first word to the final full stop, regardless of whether they are all-out queens or kings or characters who are more capable of passing for straight. There is no right way to represent queerness; I just wish more authors would stop trying to edge it out altogether in favour of more stories about straight characters deciding to taste the rainbow to see if it suits them.
Gay For You is not particularly believable to me, but Out For You can be. Either way, I think these sort of stories contribute to bi-erasure, and they kind of annoy me because of that. I enjoy them on occasion, but I tend to assume the character is actually bi and the author simply neglected to tell the reader that; it’s more believable to me that way. Of course, I’m bi. 🙂 We all read through the filter of our beliefs and experiences.
Besides me being as straight as they come – brain melt Jess. And what K.Z. Snow said ( I think) – I mean yes these stories are fantasies but don’t the crazies who think that you can treat the gay out of the person get their doze of crazy from their idiotic fantasies? Obviously I cannot speak for any gay person, man or woman – if these fantasies do not trivialize their experience I respect that. But I can speak for myself and when I read a story where a person who never ever had a tiny sign of attraction to another genre ever becomes gay overnight , well isn’t it a next logical step to assume that you can become straight overnight? I mean why isn’t it an awesome fantasy or just a great story when the person who is gay or bisexual, just finds that special one for forever ? Does this person really needs to be completely straight and the writer just have to avoid any sign that person may be bisexual if attraction to another genre does happen? To each their own – but magic switch stories are not for me usually.
The thing that bothers me is that people are forgetting that just because their sexuality is firm doesn’t mean other people’s sexuality can’t be fluid, It makes the whole community exclusive instead of inclusive when we can’t accept that sexuality is unique to each person.
Gay-For-You stories aren’t for me either but like I said on my earlier post they don’t bother me.
You know, your post strikes a chord with me, because I’ve been realizing more and more that sexuality is…fluid, you know? I’m sort of still coming to terms with my own sexuality, but I don’t think it’s ever QUITE as simple as “straight” or “gay” or even “bisexual”. I think people are capable of falling in love or lust with whoever it is that they make a connection with or are attracted to. I just, I don’t know. For me, personally, I’m not a fan of labels. I think you should be free to love whoever you want. That’s why “gay for you” leaves a bad taste in MY mouth. / ETA: I had a whole rambling spiel, but I decided to cut it short. Ahem. It’s just – that person didn’t TURN if they fell in love with another guy for the first time. It was just an organic connection that happened and you shouldn’t marginalize their sexual orientation by attempting to “explain” it, you know? / sighs, so yes. Apologies for the clumsiness of this. I’m sort of new to discussing all of this.
I think this is an interesting point of view coming from a personal place. I have to say most of the GFY stories I’ve read have turned out to be OFY with the protagonists having had prior attractions and experiences with the same sex that they’ve suppressed over time. The rare outright GFY stories I’ve read, where the person has never had a prior attraction, has mainly been written by gay men. I don’t know what that says other than I think the GFY trope taps into a fantasy of some gay men. Isn’t that why the so called gay for pay porn sells? I read an account written by a gay porn star who was instructed that he had to pretend to be straight guy on camera. He was annoyed by this but did it because that’s what sold the best.
Is it a harmful fantasy? I have no idea. But consider that there’s plenty in the hetero world of romance that women find offensive and still they thrive & sell. For instance there were several decades where rape fantasies were big sellers. And I’m pretty sure none of those women readers really wanted to be raped or were advocating for it. There’s also a large number of people who find Twilight romances, where the virginal young girls are waiting to be rescued by some handsome guy, vampire or not, quite offensive and harmful. And still they keep getting written and sell quite well.
I guess the lesson is don’t take any lesson or big message from romance novels. The majority of readers are aware that a GFY is just one of many fantasies in romance.
Speaking as a bisexual man, I don’t think GFY stories are really what they claim to be. I think what you really have is a bisexual man, who may not even realize he’s bisexual, one who definitely prefers women–until he finds just that one perfect man.
The gay for you scenario that springs to my mind is Ellen DeGeneres and her ex, who is now happily married to a man and I’ve seen an interview where she’s said she didn’t know what she was thinking. Perhaps gay for you can work for a bit as straight for you can, but not really in either case and not happily for the long term