I’ve been doing some thinking (which is always a dangerous thing) 🙂 as a result of recent comments from readers on a few posts here regarding what they want when they buy an M/M romance. Their expectations range from sex 24/7 in these books – which would make the protagonists one dimensional cardboard cut-outs and very, very, tired – to no sex unless it was in a committed relationship, resembling more traditional old style M/f romances. How would it work I wonder, if gay men in M/M romances don’t have sex EVER except with their One True Love?
When guys date in real life, gay or straight, the majority are looking for sex, sex, and more sex, until they decide on the one person who fulfils their romantic needs, and even then they may stray, which is another post. It seems reasonable to assume that if two gay men are dating, the urge for sex is ever present and usually executed. 🙂 Typically, in RL men and women think differently about sex although lately that’s changing. Gay men under 30 seem to have libidos that are in constant overdrive (maybe straight men do as well)!
Het romances in the old days of Harlequin romances had no hanky panky, in other words, nothing of a sexual nature until the wedding. These books have evolved a lot since then and Harlequin romances now have the hero and heroine in bed before the “I Do’s” and maybe even some cheating going on – or a threesome or two. Ebooks have changed het romances and many of them rival M/M in terms of their sexual content, yet some readers seem to have unrealistic expectations when they pick up a gay romance. Why is that? Even though these books are fiction I thought that the characterizations of the protagonists were supposed to resemble real gay men, with all their flaws. Men love sex and when there are two dicks in play there is even more action.
Readers’ expectations of M/M romances seem to change constantly and authors are getting different messages about what we really want. In my post on How Do You Like Your M/M Erotic Romance 2010 – The Results, linked here, readers weighed in on every aspect of M/M romances and the consensus overwhelmingly was –
Most of you moved to M/M because you found het romance boring and unfulfilling
You love the different dynamics between two men
So why am I writing this post? I’m puzzled by recent comments which seem to indicate that, contrary to what you said in the survey above, some readers want gay romances to be aligned as closely as possible to het in terms of the sexual mores, lifestyles etc. We know that there is a big difference between the lifestyles of single gay men and single straight women (at least I think so) although both have changed over the last decade. For M/M romance to replicate straight romance would be to deny what being a gay man is all about. I’m not saying gay men are one dimensional – far from it, but for the most part their sex lives are quite different from the typical straight female, until they are in a committed relationship. If you read some of the stories in the Coming Out of the Closet post here they would give you a small glimpse of the life of young gay men, and straight women do not have the same experiences.
Women read M/M romances because we are looking for something different, so why would some of us expect M/M romances to duplicate what we find in het, especially Harlequin romances? Here are two quotes, very different, from two female readers, on another post, in response to my question:
Me“Do you consider it cheating if the main protagonist has not yet made up his mind to commit to one person, and is having sex with others until he decides which man he wants? I don’t. I call that dating.”
Sue “Truthfully, Wave, I am not interested in having the main protagonist date (have sex) with multiple men in a novel. I am reading m/m fiction for the love story between TWO men, just like I would in a Harlequin m/f romance novel. I admit I am vanilla, but in between writing my thesis, grad school classes and real life I have very little time for reading for fun, so I limit my choices to what I know, like and find comfortable.”
Quinn “One very important aspect for ME in the attraction of m/m though, the relationship between two men DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT mirror a m/f Harlequin romance. (If a story and characters do so and I didn’t realize before buying, the book probably will be DNF). I even do not necessarily need a HEA if I get great characters and an engaging plot.”
While the audience for M/M romance is still predominantly female, that is also changing because more men are now writing (22%) and reading (15%) M/M romances, according to a survey on this site, so I asked TJ, a gay man who is a ‘regular’ here, what his expectations are of these books and this is what he had to say:
TJ “My expectations of m/m stories are the same as for mainstream fiction. As a gay man, I want to read about other gay men who are interesting, three dimensional and believable. For me, part of being believable, even in a romance novel, requires that their actions and reactions to their circumstances follows their character’s development in the story. As real life people often do, I would expect these men to make mistakes, make some foolish choices, and maybe even sleep with the wrong guy or guys along the way. That’s part of how we figure out who we want, or should be with.
As a result of this, I don’t always expect a HEA or even a HFN ending, although there’s nothing better when it makes sense in the story. Nor do I look for everything to necessarily be fully resolved, as long as the story is satisfying in some sense. I don’t mean that major plot lines are left unfinished, but more along the lines of the main characters’ relationship not be rushed. I don’t like inst-love. I don’t even like instant pudding. For me, all good things, especially good relationships, require time to develop”
I also asked Ethan Day, an author, for his view of the M/M world, because I knew that Ethan would have an opinion or two. 🙂 Here’s what he said, in part:
“There’s nothing wrong with showing two gay men meeting, falling in love and having that HEA. But for many people…they’re only willing to read the same story so many times. Yes you can change the names, places, and faces, but you can only fool so many people for so long with that set-up. I think this is why I keep hearing so many readers saying they’re bored, or tired. Usually this is tagged as being connected to the sex scenes. Is it really merely the sex scenes or are the stories as a whole becoming too formulaic? (I’m asking here because I’m the first to admit that I’ve barely scratched the tip of the gay romance market as a reader.)
What really bothers me more than anything, is when readers trash a book or the author when it doesn’t live up to their strict vision of what love is. Is it really the author’s fault that your vision of what should be is so narrow? I don’t believe anyone should have to read anything they don’t want to, but why wouldn’t you want to look at the world from someone else’s perspective? This issue of cheating bugs me. Is a man who cheats forever to be deemed unworthy of love? That’s it, one strike and you’re out? No exceptions? Because what that feels like to me is, no compassion. And isn’t that kinda-sorta the same emotion the guy who cheated likely had, to begin with?
On the flip side, I think gay men can be just as restrictive in the opposite sense. Maybe if there were more literature out there that showed two gay men meeting, falling in love and living happily ever after then there wouldn’t be such a stigma attached to gay men as the perpetual man-ho who is incapable of commitment. I know it’s not true, but it sure can feel true, especially to me when I first came out. People looked at me like I was crazy when I’d say that I would prefer one good guy over 20 hot one-nighters. Granted I was 20 at the time, so not your typical statement from a guy at that age. But it was drilled into me by my community not to go expecting too much. Don’t set your heart on finding ‘the one’ ‘cause we’re gay…and we don’t do that. Obviously, I don’t think anyone ever came out and said that, but it was the feeling that I got. And I don’t believe anything should feel out of my reach as a gay man………”
The gay men who are now writing these books in increasing numbers are bringing different perspectives to M/M plots because they are speaking from their life experiences, and this will ultimately change many of the stories that are released. This does not mean that female authors don’t give us gritty and realistic M/M stories, because they do – Bareback and 9-1-1 by Chris Owen remain two of my favourite M/M romances and they were written by a woman in 2003 and 2005. Similarly, Laura Baumbach’s A Bit of Rough released in print in 2005 is another wonderful M/M book that’s one of my favourite reads. I love many books written by female M/M authors such as Jordan Castillo Price, AM Riley, M.L. Rhodes and on and on because they write tough and gritty stories or sometimes simple romances. This is fiction, after all, and if you can dream it you can write it. However there’s something to be said for writing from personal life experience. Rick Reed, author, did a post recently on this site in which he talked about writing about real gay men. Here’s part of what he said
“……we all have a responsibility to be true to the characters we create. We need to give some recognition to the very real problems, pitfalls, and pleasures real gay men experience, aside from falling in love. As a gay man, I can tell you that I—or close friends—have personally wrestled with such issues as homophobia, HIV, drug abuse, promiscuity, job discrimination, hate crimes, the inability to marry the person we love, and many other things that occupy today’s headlines.”
The paradigm shift in M/M romances is here or on the immediate horizon, brought about mainly by more gay writers entering this field. Will those readers who are looking for gay romances that resemble het romances abandon this sub genre because it no longer offers them what they want? Would that be a good or a bad thing? Should Harlequin romances be the benchmark for M/M?
So readers, what are your expectations when you buy an M/M romance? Do you want it to be similar to het, even to the point of emulating some of the mores and conventions of Harlequin romances? Or are you willing to embrace more realistic characterizations of gay men in these books? What are your hot buttons?
Although these days I read m/m romance much more than het romance, my expectations are exactly the same for both – I want a GOOD book. That means: realistic plot and setting and three-dimensional characters. I expect the characters to behave the way it’s natural to THEM, whether they are men (straight or gay) or women.
One of the reasons I gave up on the traditional romance (and not ALL het romance is traditional) is the fact that most of it is not realistic: the characters are too perfect, dashing, intelligent, fabulous, almost always rich. I especially cringe every time the heroine, smart, accomplished, lovely woman, turns in the blubbering pile of goo in the presence of THE MAN.
TJ (especially), Ethan and Rick made some very good points. Boy meets boy, they fall in love and have a HEA may be true for SOME characters and that’s fine. But others will make mistakes, cheat, lie, learn and THEN, maybe, earn some good future for themselves and their partners. Or not. Like people in real life, the book characters live THEIR lives, they should be true to themselves, not to readers’ expectations.
Now, readers have a choice to choose some books and skip the others. But the books should be valued in terms of their quality, not readers’ expectations. I don’t especially like the books with menages in them or sugary books, but I would never say they are bad (if that is not the case), just not to my taste.
LadyM
>>One of the reasons I gave up on the traditional romance (and not ALL het romance is traditional) is the fact that most of it is not realistic: the characters are too perfect, dashing, intelligent, fabulous, almost always rich. I especially cringe every time the heroine, smart, accomplished, lovely woman, turns in the blubbering pile of goo in the presence of THE MAN. << You have just very eloquently expressed why I quit reading het romance and I would hate it if M/M evolved in this direction because some readers want to read about gay romances but want it to follow more traditional M/f lines. Then I would have to quit reading these books and try to find something else because I would not be interested in the stories. I read M/M because a lot of the stories are different and if the sub genre loses its edge it will lose me, and I think a lot of readers. >>Now, readers have a choice to choose some books and skip the others. But the books should be valued in terms of their quality, not readers’ expectations. I don’t especially like the books with menages in them or sugary books, but I would never say they are bad (if that is not the case), just not to my taste.<< What I'm afraid of is that if enough readers complain that M/M books are too realistic in terms of how they depict gay men's lives, maybe they will make the authors pull back and write stories they think are more accaptable i.e. no cheating, no m/m/m, no BDSM, no more edgy stories and they'll just give us simple, sugary romances. There is nothing wrong with simple romances, I have read a few and have enjoyed them but I don't want them as a steady diet. M/M should be as diverse as the men in the stories.
Great post! I too would like to read more realistic romance. I have no aversion to angst or dealing with real-world problems. I prefer those stories. However, I do read for romance, and, to me, that should result in a HEA (or at least a HFN) for two (or even three) people…eventually. Then again, I am a chick 😉
The one thing I do get frustrated with is insta-love. Insta-lust, insta-I’ve-never-wanted-someone-this-way, and insta-I-want-to-see-where-this-could-go I get. But insta-love seems unrealistic and rushed. I’d like to see a build up to the deep emotions, even if the guys can’t keep their hands off each other.
When I write, I try to keep these things in mind. Not sure I’ll end up with something anyone but me wants to read, but I’ll give it a try. 🙂
Hi Kerry
>>Great post! I too would like to read more realistic romance. I have no aversion to angst or dealing with real-world problems. I prefer those stories. However, I do read for romance, and, to me, that should result in a HEA (or at least a HFN) for two (or even three) people…eventually. Then again, I am a chick 😉 << Reading for romance is great and I read mostly for romance but the ending has to make sense and insta love + a HEA doesn’t do it for me. I appreciate your comment that you like stories dealing with real world problems as long as they end up with a HEA or HFN. Most readers want realism in these books and some authors are really trying their best to move away from feeding us stories that are formulaic and resemble old style Harlequin romances. I think that M/M should differentiate itself from het and not offer us cookie cutter romances.
I’m with Kerry. I read M/M for the romance and I want my HEA or HFN. Sometimes, I want that romance dealing with weighty subjects and sometimes I just want fluff. I’m getting good at knowing who to turn to for what, but, yeah, I also find myself reading way more reviews than I used to so I know what I’m getting into before the buy. At the same time, I’m also reading gay fiction and nonfiction to help me with the realism of writing about gay men. But what it boils down to is that if you’re going to call it M/M, then it’s got to have great characters, a great plot, and love at the end of it all.
Hi Missy
Thanks for commenting.
I do understand where you’re coming from. My point is that those readers who are looking for the exact same experience that they find in traditional romance may have to rethink M/M, since a lot of the stories are not ‘fluffy.’ There will always be some more romantic stories but I suspect that the percentage of edgy stories will increase in the future with the number of gay men who are now entering the M/M romance field.
Excellent quotes from TJ and Ethan. And as another commenter said – I want a “good” read. To me that means plausibility – even if most books need a fair chunk of coincidence or contrivance to create a readable whole – and engaging characters. Sometimes I can cope with angst, sometimes with romance. But I can always cope with fine writing and a captivating story, whatever the plotline or sex content.
I personally like my fiction to challenge and reward me. I want value added to my life, not just familiarity!
I think this just takes us back to the romance / Romance debate (or dichotomy?!). “MM” is a damned big umbrella term for all the joyful genres that may be held within. I agree there are formulae for MM “Romance”, but on the other hand, “romance” – plus other themes – within MM fiction is a great and glorious opportunity for reader and author.
Rambling, sorry. 🙂
Hi Clare
How nice to see you here. 🙂
>>And as another commenter said – I want a “good” read. To me that means plausibility – even if most books need a fair chunk of coincidence or contrivance to create a readable whole – and engaging characters. << Excellent points Clare. I would add to that "believable" characters because readers can't expect a gay man to act outside the norm. Obviously gay men are not all alike - they are as diverse as straight men and women - but I would not expect them to act like someone in a Harlequin romance. We all want a good read and characters with whom we can fall in love. For me, if the characters don't move me the story ultimately won't. The characters also have to act in a manner that's consistent with being male and gay.
I have to say that I think there is room for everybody under the m/m umbrella…all sorts of writers, readers, and expectations. For me, though, I will stay true to writing stories that reflect the lives of real gay men (based on my own experience, of course) and I will make my reading choices based on that same criteria.
Hi Rick
Thank you for dropping by.
I do understand your position and I think you are quite right not to compromise your principles and I appreciate that you write what you know.
M/M is vast and getting bigger with the introduction of new themes, but I hope that we don’t lose what makes readers love this sub genre which came from obscurity and now is expanding exponentially.
Great post. I read for romance but I don’t need a HEA for it to be a great story. Insta-love drives me batty but so do books with all sex and no story. I love the angst of real life situations and real life doesn’t necessarily mean two people walking off into the sunset hand in hand. It’s unrealistic especially in short stories and novellas where everything is wrapped up in a neat little package in under 100 pages.
I want strong 3-D characters. Nothing ruins a story more for me than when a character starts off strong and end up a bawling mess crawling into people laps like a toddler. I don’t want to see this from a female character and I damn sure don’t want to see it in a male.
Hi Aisha
I’m with you regarding not needing a HEA to enjoy and appreciate an M/M romance. However purists have slapped me down and indicated over and over that without a HEA or HFN these books can’t be called romances. I would take my definition any day than the forced HEAs and HFNs and insta love to make the books fit into the “romance” designation. But that’s just me. However I do love a happy ending with it’s credible.
>>I want strong 3-D characters. Nothing ruins a story more for me than when a character starts off strong and end up a bawling mess crawling into people laps like a toddler. I don’t want to see this from a female character and I damn sure don’t want to see it in a male.<< There is a name for characters like this but some authors don't like me to use it. 🙂 I think if authors write books with male characters who are real and not some fairy tale (the pun was intended) with a rich Sheik and his male concubines I would be happy, but hey some people love that type of story - it made billions for one famous romance publisher - the only difference is that the concubines were female.
Damn you woman, making me think on my vacation. 🙂
I have gay friends of all types. I have young guys in their 20’s who only want their one true love. They don’t sleep around and think the idea of having sex with random people is “gross”. I have friends in their 40’s who have casual sex often, not when dating someone, but right now one guy has them labeled from A to F, some he sleeps with, some he doesn’t. So I think like het women and men, there is a broad spectrum. Not all gay men of any particular age are hooking up every weekend at the bar with strangers and not all are seeking their one true love and are enjoying a lot of people.
I will read stories with either. However something in me says once they meet each other in the story, the playing around should stop unless it’s explicitly stated, “I haven’t decided you’re the one so I’m still dating”. Otherwise I think it can be a recipe for hurt feelings, real life AND fiction.
I certainly don’t expect every story to be, boy meets boy, boys forsake all others, boys live HEA. That’s nice but if there are some other people in there before the boys meet or with consent after, I’m okay with that. I don’t want one size fits all but when I read romance, I expect romance which to me means falling in love with someone(s) and having a respectful relationship (whatever that means to the couple) with a HFN or some kind of “bodes well for the future” ending. If I’m reading erotica/porn, then no, I don’t expect those things, so it depends on the “genre” I choose at a given time what I’m looking for or in the mood for. Sometimes I WANT romance, other times not so much.
Hey Tam
>>Damn you woman, making me think on my vacation. 🙂 << You're always on vacation. I guess you fit in work around the holidays. ;-) >>I have gay friends of all types. I have young guys in their 20’s who only want their one true love. They don’t sleep around and think the idea of having sex with random people is “gross”. I have friends in their 40’s who have casual sex often, not when dating someone, but right now one guy has them labeled from A to F, some he sleeps with, some he doesn’t.<< My point is that to expect a man not to screw around until he declares that someone is his One True Love is somewhat unrealistic, in RL or in books, especially when we talk about gay men who typically have more opportunity to have sex than straight men (two dicks in play and all that). Even straight men play around until they actually commit and they have sex with women who typically have more conservative sexual mores. >>However something in me says once they meet each other in the story, the playing around should stop unless it’s explicitly stated, “I haven’t decided you’re the one so I’m still dating”.<< I guess my question to you would be: when does someone decide they are no longer dating? When they meet a guy they like and with whom they may want to have a long term relationship? What if they want to be sure before committing, and by "being sure" I mean that they continue to have sex and experiment with other people until they tell "the one" you're my One True Love and they quit screwing around? Of course both partners are free to "practice" 😉 until they say "you're mine" They can't be selfish. 🙂 Their story will still end up as a "Romance" when they have their HEA and think of all the expertise they will have gained. 😉 Obviously there's no one size fits all because we're all different (I sure hope so) 🙂 but I'm talking general principles.
Wave,
As per usual, when you sit back and ponder, u stir up trouble & its dangerous (all in a good way mind you..;-) )
To answer your question, Wave, is in short to also answer an earlier post which I didnt had the time to answer which was “How Do You Like Your M/M romance” post. What I expect from a M/M romance is great characterization (meaning 3-dimensional characters, well-developed characters), plot, nicely-written prose, and most importantly ROMANCE. The whole reason why I moved over to M/M romance was bc I was tired of reading gay fiction where there was NO sex or romance. The proverbial bedroom kept getting slammed, and as a reader, I became a voyeur and started pounding on the door: “Open up the door dammit so I can see some action” LOL.
I think my expectations of a M/M romance is that somehow I want to be moved. I want my HEA and my HFN bc Im a romantic by nature. And thats’ it. Romance plain and simple. I dont want my books to replicate some Harlequin m/f romance. Why? Bc for ME, they were boring. I need more spice and HEAT! The day M/M becomes Harlequin is the day I’m leaving the M/M. I want all of the grittiness that is in gay life but I want my sweet romance as well.
Personally, I think some readers of M/M are downright selfish. U can’t have your cake and eat it to meaning if you are a reader who likes little to no sex in their M/M books, you can’t expect ALL books to be that way. And this reasoning also goes the other way. If you like your M/M books full of sex, you cant have ALL books in that fashion either.
I dont think readers should expect ANYTHING in a book in any genre. In fact, lower your expectations. I have come to find that even a book with considerable buzz and hype that when I lower my expectations, I wont have far to drop if the book doesnt met MY expectations, but Im pleasantly surprised when the book DOES meet my expectations and even surpasses them. So M/M authors write the type of books that U yourself like to read! and M/M readers, lower your expectations. U might find when u do some pleasant surprises.
Ozakie
Hi Ozakie
It’s so nice to see you here today. It’s Friday and you should be preparing for a hot weekend. LOL
There is no disagreement with what you’re saying Ozakie. as I said in the post I was taken aback to find out that some readers are expecting the Harlequin experience in M/M, a sub genre that could not be more different.
I have said often that if the characters don’t move me the books end up in most cases as DNF.
My question in the post and to Tam was: When is it allowed for the protagonist to date other men (i.e. have sex with them), even when he has met a man he thinks could be The One, without it being considered cheating? If they haven’t declared themselves I think it’s fair game to play the field as long as it’s mutually understood that there’s no commitment.
I can enjoy a book with little sex or lots such as in a M/M/M, as long as the characters are three dimensional and the story is credible. Every reader has their tolerance and that’s the way it should be, however I think it would be taking several steps back if M/M followed the mores of Harlequin romances.
“Should Harlequin romances be the benchmark for M/M?”
No, of course not, but I don’t think that it’s something that ALL m/m writers should purposely avoid emulating, nor do I think readers should be chided for wanting m/m that closely resembles it. Harlequin isn’t the beginning and end of het romance, it’s one particular style of writing within the genre. I don’t understand why this has to be an either/or situation.
Hi Elle
>>“Should Harlequin romances be the benchmark for M/M?”
No, of course not, but I don’t think that it’s something that ALL m/m writers should purposely avoid emulating, nor do I think readers should be chided for wanting m/m that closely resembles it. << I wasn't chiding anyone for their preferences. I was asking what readers want. I certainly don't expect each reader to want exactly the same thing in M/M romances that I do and vice versa because we're all individuals. However, I did think it was incongruous that some readers are looking for the "Harlequin experience" in a sub genre that couldn't be further removed and incompatible with what Harlequin represents. Harlequin romances are between a man and a woman and sex was never part of the equation until the wedding, at which time readers were treated to "fade to black". Also, because M/M readers said in large numbers that they moved to M/M to get away from het romances and the types of stories that are the norm in that sub genre, I thought that the mores of het romance were no longer in vogue.
Im going to have to piggy back on a lot of what Tam said (Well said Tam) What M/M readers need to understand is that gay men are first and first most INDIVIDUALS. We are not all cookie cutter, and I want that reflected in my M/M as well. So stop expecting to have that in the fiction! M/M is so a huge genre where you can have a myriad of different characters. Lets all be happy in that and rebel against formality. Okay end of rant. Back to Wave’s regularly scheduled programming..
Ozakie
If Tam reads your response she will never let me forget that you agreed with her. Damn you. 🙂
Seriously, the only question I want a straight answer to now is: Why is dating and having sex with other characters considered cheating, if the protags are not in a committed relationship and both of them are free to do as they please?
I don’t consider it cheating unless one of the characters considers them to be in an exclusive relationship and has no clue that the guy is still dating and sleeping with others. However let’s be honest, most books are less than 100 pages and the characters go very quickly from meeting to declaring fidelity. If they take 3 weeks or 3 months of playing the field, you are going to need a lot more pages to depict that sensitively.
I think with romance there is also something in all of us that says when you meet “the one” you’ll know it. The passion is instantaneous and all consuming. Of COURSE that’s not realistic, but I want fantasy, I want passion, I want orgasms blowing the top of your head off in my fantasy romances. So if it takes someone sleeping with a bunch of guys for 3 months to decide you’re the one, that’s not very romantic and it makes you as a reader wonder about the passion. But again, that’s ROMANCE, not fiction. Fiction I see as more realistic, m/m romance is not real life (as a rule) but it’s a stylized, fantasized version of real life.
Thanks Ozakie. 😀
Hey Tam
I hope you’re still enjoying the holiday. 🙂
I am now reading longer books. Does that make a difference? 🙂 I have become so dissatisfied with the short stories 10 – 15K that I have gone back to novels 250 pages and more which are meatier and the characters have time to develop like good wine. Of course if the majority of the long books suck I’m going back to novellas. 🙂
I think you’re probably talking more about “mates” in paranormals because they seem to be the only ones able to pull off the insta love and instant recognition of The One. Whenever I read insta love shoehorned into an 80 page novel to achieve that all important HEA I end up very dissatisfied. I look for flawed characters who work hard for their HEA and I also need real conflict (not The Big Misunderstanding) and if that conflict is another man, whether or not someone is having sex with him, that makes the end with the HEA or HFN that much more satisfying.
I guess what I’m saying is that I like a book that makes me go YES!!! when the guys eventually go off into the sunset. However if everything is too easy the book will never be read a second or third time, and maybe it will be a DNF.
Wave, I share your view that m/m fiction suffers when authors force a natural story out of shape to fit the antiquated conventions that have carried over from traditional M/F romance, such as the no-cheating and HEA/HFN. Much of the time, the authors are getting pressured into doing this by many of the publishers.
The resulting story really shows its cracks and implausibilities, especially (as Aisha pointed out) when it’s under 100 pages. Short fiction shows every mistake. It’s like getting a super-short haircut, which then reveals every flaw on the face, ha, ha!
But I agree with Ozakie that traditional gay fiction can be really grim. I stopped reading gay fiction awhile back (and kept on with m/m) because some gay fiction can be really harsh — especially if it focuses too overwhelmingly on the worst aspects of life (not just gay life) such as suicide, prostitution, addiction, exploitation, disease, death, misery, self-hatred, lost love, et cetera.
I mean, whoa. I don’t read a lot of literary fiction for that same reason — it goes off the deep end with the heavy themes. A lot of us such as Ozakie and me read for escapism and we want romance and fun, or at least some hopefulness and a couple of funny lines.
I think what several people pointed out here is going to end up being true: M/M will be a big umbrella term that covers a spectrum of fiction about gay men in relationships with other gay men.
On one end of the spectrum will be the incredibly sensitive dudes who sob endlessly as they shampoo each other’s hair and proclaim their love. And there will be a small, devoted following for that.
On the other end will be the hardcore gay porn (mostly written by gay men), with its own dedicated readership. And the rest of us will spread out through the middle, shopping amongst all the options.
Some will buy Harlequin-themed m/m romance with full knowledge that it’s not too realistic — but they enjoy it anyway. I’ll be shopping for the m/m fiction that is written a lot like quality mainstream mysteries: strong plot, excellent writing, loads of vivid detail about setting and professions, three-dimensional complex characters, REALISTIC behavior, and explicit sex scenes that fit into the story and reveal things about the characters. I’m okay with not getting a HEA or an HFN.
Hi Val
I thought you would be busy on edits. 🙂
I think in some cases the “no cheating” rule is because the authors want their books to sell. Because so many readers (especially the female of the species) are against cheating and would almost burn these books if they could, the authors have caved. Readers are still upset about Bareback by Chris Owen, 7 years after it was first released, and refuse to read it. But despite their efforts, BB is one of the best known and best selling M/M romance books on the market today.
I was bent over double (no, not in a sexual way Val) 🙂 but with laughter. You have such a great sense of humour.
I love the different characterizations in M/M – I just don’t understand this fixation against cheating. What other readers consider to be cheating I consider to be dating until the protags have committed to each other, unless there is an agreement upfront about no sex with anyone else. As Ethan said in his comment, one strike and you’re out. There is no forgiveness in M/M if a character cheats or appears to do so in the narrowly defined M/M world.
You took the words right out of my mouth Val. 🙂
I was bent over double (no, not in a sexual way Val) but with laughter. You have such a great sense of humour.
Ha, ha! Thanks. It’s totally literal. I really have read a lot of things where guys sob endlessly while shampooing each other’s hair and proclaiming their love. 😉
I’m totally with you on the cheating/dating in fiction. No problem. It could make for a lot of interesting tension and side-plots and complications. It’s always possible for the cheating character to prove his love and redeem himself in the eyes of his true love before the story ends.
I just want a good story that leaves me feeling hopeful for the characters (assuming I feel somewhat invested in them, which I do when they’re effectively written).
Lots of sex, just a little sex…? I don’t care. In most cases, sex is secondary for me. Yes, it’s hot and stuff, but (for me) it shouldn’t be the point of the story, unless the story is full-on porn. 😛
HEA or HFN is kind of included in the definition of ‘romance’, I think. Just let me finish a story and have the belief that things will work out in the end.
*shrugs* I’m a sucker for a happy (or happy-ish) ending. It should be arrived at through a reasonable process, but happiness is pretty much always good. Part of the reason I read romance in general is because true happiness is often lacking in the real world.
Okay, this probably hasn’t been a very enlightening reply, but you asked. *hee*
~Tis
Hi Tis
I think we all want characters that move us and stories that are well written and leave us feeling at the end as if we had been on the journey with the characters.
I don’t believe I was commenting on how much sex should be in these books or not. My question related to cheating which came up on another post, and I asked when does ‘dating’ become cheating if two protags are not in a committed relationship and they both know the score. Many readers are upset about characters having sex with someone other than their One True Love, even if that OTL has not declared himself. I don’t see the problem but maybe I’m dense. If you’re not in a relationship and are just dating, IMO you should be able to have protected sex with whomever you want until you seal the deal. But what do I know? 🙂
Hi again, Wave. 🙂
No, you’re right. You didn’t say anything about how much sex might be too much. I didn’t mean to imply that you had. I was trying to say that the amount of sex in a story has very little effect as far as colouring my expectations. It’s one of those neither-here-nor-there things for me.
As for the cheating question, which I meant to address before but didn’t (cuz I get sidetracked incredibly easily. Obvious, right? :P), it’s not a turn-off for me. It’s one of those things that can create a definite dynamic in a story, adding drama and often heat, which are good things, I think.
As for when it becomes ‘cheating’, I think there needs to be some expectation of exclusivity in place for it to count as infidelity. If there’s no agrement in place — by which I mean a spoken agreement that’s acknowledged by both (or more) parties — then I don’t consider it cheating for guy 1 to hook up with guy 3 (or 4 or 5, even) while dating guy 2. It might make guy 1 a bit of a slut if he’s banging away with 4 other guys, but so what? As long as he’s playing safely, who am I to say he shouldn’t have his fun? 😛
That said, I do prefer that guy 1 end up in a loving, committed relationship, regardless of how many frogs he might have gone through to realize which one (or more) was his prince. And if guy 1 does cheat after he’s with his twu wuv, I don’t want him to be forgiven too easily. I want him to have to work at it and prove himself before he’s forgiven.
So I guess what I’m saying is that I expect M/M romances to contain a fair bit of fantastical realism, if that makes any sense.
~Tis
Hi Tis
That’s exactly what I was looking for. I don’t believe you can cheat on someone whom you’re dating, as long as both of you understand the score i.e. that it’s not an exclusive relationship. However, once both parties decide on exclusivity that becomes another ballgame.
I agree also that I would like to see every couple get their HEA or HFN (although in some cases I wish they would just leave, either because they are toxic for each other or the story is so bad it wish it would end already) 🙁
Great post and discussion. : ) I won’t say much more as I blathered on enough as it is. I do want to read about the love, regardless of the subgenre that comes attached. I’m just not real picky when it comes to how that love takes form.
It can be instant or take years for all I care, but I’ll always have my fingers crossed everything works out in the end or if nothing else that the characters are satisfied with the way their story ends.
Hi Ethan
Fancy meeting you here. 🙂 This trouble is all because of you. LOL.
Seriously, I love a HEA just as much as the next person but when it’s insta love and the HEA is forced, the author has lost me. I’ve read and reviewed too many books where the HEA came out of the blue with no warning and I never saw it coming. Without that HEA the book can’t be classified as a romance, and as we both know, there’s more money in romance than any other genre so it’s obvious why it’s important even when it makes no sense based on the story.
You should really visit more often Ethan. 😉
Ha! I should be doing more writing. : ) Oh well…all work and no play and all.
No I agree that it doesn’t HAVE to be a HEA or even a HFN to be satisfying to me as a reader or a writer. But they do make me feel good. : ) And it does depend on the book as well. Lanyon’s English mystery series is a good example. (I still havent read the final book yet – so no spoilers!)
Ethan
For shame!! You haven’t read The Dark Tide?? Let me save you the trouble of reading it …. OK it ended with …….. Damn! I can’t tell you – no spoilers. 🙂 Just get it and read it when you have a few spare hours to devote to it. You won’t regret the time.
I know, I know!! I bought it the week it was released. But it’s partially because once I read the last book I know the series will be over. And as long as I don’t…I know it’s not over. Probably really strange, I get that. But I never said I wasn’t nuts. : )
Of course it depends on personal taste and preference what people like to read. I have been too late to answer this poll several weeks ago, but still liked to give my opinion. I finally finished answering and as some answers basically might be fitting to this discussion as well I thought, well, I could post it here: 😉
How Do you Like your M/M Erotic Romance 2010?
For some of my answers I would like to substitute the term “M/M Erotic Romance” of the question by “M/M Fiction”, because I’m not really a “romance reader”. I read some m/f romances in my teens but stopped reading the “m/f romance genre” in my early twenties. The only exception is Georgette Heyer, whose great regencies I will love and reread forever. 🙂
Of course I like to read love stories / about relationships, but I prefer if they are part of a complex plot and not just follow the romance formula with typical romance mold characters.
2. How were you first introduced to M/M FICTION?
Since my very early teens I have been fascinated by two guys “being together”, first I read books or saw movies which happened to have gay characters or a gay subplot and at about age 12/13/14 I started to search for books and movies with gay themes. And since then I have read a lot of gay fiction and fiction with gay characters.
About 2001 I discovered fan fiction and slash, I never really followed a fandom, but subsequently I discovered Nifty and some other archive sites with “M/M Original Fiction” where I occasionally found an interesting story after sifting through a lot of drivel and I have kind of observed the emergence of the “M/M Erotic Romance genre” in the last decade.
1. Why do you like to read M/M erotic ROMANCES?
“M/M Erotic Romance” is a part of the genre “Fiction with gay characters / plots”. And I like to read about male characters who fall in lust / love. M/M Romance ebooks are easily available, there are lots to choose from, and because I have a very stressful job my expectation of the M/M romances is entertainment and I often read in the novella range (80 – 150 pdf pages) which requires less time and energy than a longer story.
But I often catch myself thinking? That was all? Because although I read “just for quick and easy entertainment” I also want a “real” plot with realistic characters in those 80 – 150 pages. And I have no problem not finishing any of those stories, if the story / characters don’t captivate me. (But I also do not finish “other” books / print books if they do not captivate my interest).
Basically I prefer longer and more complex stories, 300 – 500 pages or more, and I have lots of print books of different genres, fiction and non-fiction (of course also Gay / M/M print books) which I would love to read, but often I don’t have the energy and time for them so I compromise with some fluffy (shorter) M/M Romance.
3. What specific elements attract you to these books / M/M FICTION? What is the appeal? (If you’re female, Is it the kink factor? Is it because you like the thought of two hot guys making out? Do you like being a voyeur looking in at something you think is forbidden or taboo? If you’re male Do you read these books because you like to read romances with people like yourself so that you can relate to the struggles of the protagonists? Insert your own reasons)
Two guys together are hot! 😉
As I said before, I’m not really a romance reader, even in my teens I read more thriller/ action/ adventure/ mystery and noirish crime novels than romances and I have always preferred to read about male characters. I “slashed” male characters in those stories decades before I knew what “slash” was. Part of that appeal might be that male characters get more interesting roles in those plots than any female characters ever did and do.
Men are less restricted by conventions and expectations and a big part of the attraction for me is the “hypothetical” equality of two men in a relationship, any kind of relationship, romantic or not, but usually there is some kind of power imbalance.
And I LOVE some power play and quest for dominance by two very macho very male alpha guys. 😉
I like gay characters who are “out and proud”, I like bisexual characters and I also like bi-curious characters with issues which are messing with their head – as long as these are interesting characters in a well written and engaging story, hopefully original. But I have several “personal taste” kink buttons when I can disregard a little originality for the sake of those story / character kink buttons. 😉
I always loved to read stories which explore the various combinations in the whole scale of: Gay – Straight / Top – Bottom / Dominant – Submissive / S – M
… maybe with some surprising twist or resolution. 😉
As I read “Gay Fiction” for decades before I discovered “M/M Erotic Romance” (and never have been much of a “romance reader” anyway) I’m more used – and attracted – to a more (gay) male point of view, a more male kind of writing, which can contain: casual sexual encounters, sex as a fun activity without expectations, separating sex from love, open relationships.
4. If there is one thing that you would change about the genre, what would it be? (Too much angst? Not enough real conflict in the books? Not enough plot? “Chicks with Dicks”? Too many “Big Misunderstandings”? Poor characterizations?) Insert your own ‘beef’)
At this stage too often stories just consist of the typical romance elements with a little excuse for a plot connecting these romance elements and for my taste that is boring. But obviously there is an audience for the Harlequin type M/M HEA love story, so I would like publishers to create different recognizable “brands”, so each audience will be able to find their preferred kind of stories.
With so many new writers and some very talented new writers I would like to see the genre / a genre evolve as “M/M FICTION” with the focus on the plot and the possible romance as part of the plot and not the other way round. I like to read about realistic people in a realistic world with realistic problems.
There is a vast spectrum possible between “Gay Fiction which tries to be serious literature”, “M/M Fiction with the intent to entertain, but which will keep the readers’ brain involved too” and the “Guaranteed HEA M/M Romance”.
I don’t need or necessarily expect a HEA or HFN. If two guys find their “true love” – great. But that should be consistent with the characters and the story and shouldn’t be rushed or tacked on.
I have read some great books where I felt like crying at the end that guys I got to love over the course of the story didn’t get a happy ending, but that’s life. Life isn’t predictable. Authors, surprise me with your plot. Anything goes!
And what else?
Better covers! I think the covers already are getting better? I noticed some attractive covers lately, but regarding the whole genre, if I see them one after another at a site like “All Romance Ebooks”, too many covers are still ugly and kitschy. I like to look at beautiful things, not only attractive men but also attractive covers and just a muscular male torso among some garish colors is NOT enough to make a cover attractive!
5. Without differentiating regarding themes such as paranormal, horror, sci fi, mysteries etc. How do you like your M/M erotic romances?
a. Would you like more (or less) sex scenes in these books? What do you consider to be a reasonable amount of sex in M/M romances? – 5%, 10%, 20%, 30% ? More than 30% of the content? The whole ball of wax? Whatever the author wants?
Sex scenes and explicitness should be appropriate to the plot, for my taste it can vary from none at all to really heavy kinky BDSM.
b. Would you like to see more plot/story in M/M erotic romances and less emphasis on the sex? (To what extent does plot matter to you, or does it?)
Definitely more complex plots. I like to read about three-dimensional complex characters which will leave the “romance character mold”.
c. For those of you to whom plot matters, would you like to see more intensity? (Political intrigue? Murders most foul? BDSM stories? Drug cartels?) Insert your own plot
As a crime/thriller reader I like all those! Political intrigue, murder, drug cartels, action thrillers … and military stories … and BDSM. I like “serious” contemporary as well as contemporary with humor/comedy.
Did I mention ORIGINALITY?
So authors, please give me interesting well-developed crime/ thriller plots with gay characters. I like very gritty, dark crime stories which can contain lots of black humor as well. I loved “The DEAD Trilogy: Dead I Well May Be/ The Dead Yard/ The Doomsday Dead” by Adrian McKinty and if his character Michael Forsythe or the protagonist of “Beat the Reaper” by Josh Bazell, Peter Brown, were gay, that would have been perfect. 😉
I like the mystery about the Knights Templar, a writer interested in writing a very complex, dark, gritty, medieval story? 🙂
d. Would you like some new/different story lines to invigorate the genre ( e.g. “stories ripped from the headlines”), or a continuation of the current tried and true themes? (Best friends become lovers; Gay for you; Teacher/student; May/December romances.) Insert your own storyline
I like originality, did I already mention that? 😉 Authors should mainly go for original plots, but even the tried and true themes can be fresh by a creative author. I still like: “Best friends become lovers” and “Gay for You”. But “Gay for You” for me doesn’t have to be “Gay for You, my one and only Eternal True Love”. I think I prefer: “Gay for You, the one who is able to seduce me although I thought I was straight”. 😉 Maybe I’ve read to much GAY erotic fiction. Having sex with a straight guy has always been a popular plot. 😉
e. Which do you prefer – character driven or plot intensive storylines? Why?
I like both, character driven and plot driven.
6. What types of stories do you like – Paranormal? Sci Fi? Mysteries? Horror? Historicals? Straight contemporaries?
I like Mystery/Crime/Thriller, Contemporaries and some Historical, I like witty Regencies. But I’m not a fan of Fantasy and I can’t stand the whole Paranormal/ Vampire/ Shapeshifter/ Strange Creature genre and I never liked Sci Fi. That’s all a no-go / no buy for me.
But I have made two exceptions with paranormals now, one with an author I like for her crime novels, A.M. Riley, and I am going to try Jordan Castillo Price, because you guys love her books so much. 🙂
7. Male/Male/Male menages are creeping into the genre more and more, do you like this trend? If so, why? If not, Why not?
Threesomes can be hot. Or foursomes, or …. It depends on the characters and the plot.
9. Recently there have been controversial topics in M/M romances such as priests in love, twincest, non con in contemporary romances (this has mostly been a staple in yaoi), cheating partners etc.. What is your view about these topics?
About twenty years ago I already read a book with an element of twincest and I thought it was hot. (Twins by Bari Wood). A priest – or a monk – in love with a man may create an interesting story, this also has been done before (The Fancy Dancer by Patricia Nell Warren (1970s), Thornapple by Chris Hunt (1980s), several books by Michael Schiefelbein, but I didn’t like the vampires mixed in). I don’t mind cheating partners in a plot and not even non-con, if it is part of a well developed story.
I like controversial topics. You can give me almost any controversial theme – I will repeat my mantra: as long as it has an interesting original engaging plot, great believable three-dimensional characters and is well written.
>>There is a vast spectrum possible between “Gay Fiction which tries to be serious literature”, “M/M Fiction with the intent to entertain, but which will keep the readers’ brain involved too” and the “Guaranteed HEA M/M Romance”.<<<
Quinn,
you've got that too right!
I started to almost exclusively read English books about two years ago for two reasons:
First, the world of m/m fiction is by far not that rich in my language. From most of the German m/m books I read were either deep, grave stories about the problems gay men have with each other or their environment (interesting, moving, but I've got to be in the mood for so much heavy stuff), or "one hand reads" (on the other end of the spectrum, funny sometimes, but I need to be in the mood for that, too).
Maybe I've been looking in the wrong places, but I seemed to be unable to find just a plain old mystery/ fantasy/ romance with gay protags in German. The only thing which came close were translated English books, but boy…the translations were awful! So I figured if I had to hear the English in my head anyway the entire time because the translator wasn't able to write German but wrote Denglish instead, I could just as well read the original language.
What a great thing to discover (anglophone) m/m literature!
I do not want gayified (is that a word?) het romances. I want a plot which includes men developing feelings for each other. (all you die-hard German traditionists out there, beat me, but when I think of a German author whose books come close to this, I always think of good old Karl May, despite the horrible language) IF they end up having sex and/ or falling in love, the much the better. But, and I quote (although I'm not sure who) "There's not the one way to be gay".
So let them cheat, let them make mistakes, sleep with the wrong person, deny everything or flounce, just like in real life.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are people who like their m/m romance straight (no pun intended) and their gay men traditionally monogamous. Why not? Doesn't work for me, though. If I wanted that, I'd read het.
One man's meat is another man's poison. Or woman, for that matter. I'm glad that there's such a wide range of books to choose from in the genre I like.
Hi Feliz
You have said so much with which I agree.
I just wish that more readers were like you. We all have our preferences and while I may not read a book where “two men are sobbing while washing each other’s hair” I’m sure there’s a reader for them somewhere. 🙂
Thanks for this Feliz.
Quinn
I love all your answers, especially this one
I would hate to see M/M (whether you call it “erotic romance” or “fiction”) gradually slide into the het “mud” and become just like any other sub genre. I started reading these books because I liked the idea of gay men having their own world and their own books that reflected their lifestyles and M/M seemed a reasonable compromise. Nothing in fiction is utopian and we will always find things to criticize but so far, except for a few hiccups, I like this sub genre.
The stories could be a lot more imaginative and the characters less one dimensional but compared to what else is out there it’s not bad. I have been reading these books when they were called gay fiction and when most of the stories were PWP and the sub genre has come a long way. Women started eating these books up when the romantic element was thrown into the mix and they became aware that gay men actually existed and also had a romantic life outside of porn. WOW – says a lot for us. Lucky for me, I have always had gay friends and I welcomed the books for another reason – that others would see gay men as PEOPLE. *getting off my soapbox* 🙂
I love paranormals and I hope you try Jordan’s PsyCop books because they are not about weres or vamps (her Channeling Morpheus and Sweet Oblivion series are )but ordinary people who have a special gift.
I’m the first to admit that there’s a great deal of room for improvement because a lot of M/M is formulaic and I wish that authors would take risks and innovate rather than “follow the leader.” Some are – you will probably enjoy books by Angelia Sparrow and Naomi Brooks which are quite different from the usual fare. I may think of a list of other authors to email you as soon as I get out from under all of my current projects. There are quite a few gems in M/M so don’t despair.
Like you, I love lots of plot and great characterization because when I read I love to give my brain a workout. The sex in the books is usually a secondary consideration for me but when it’s a book by a favourite author who can write a well crafted sex scene that’s not boring, I’m there.
I really love your opinions about literature in general and M/M in particular Quinn. I try to remember that the sub genre is still young and it has a lot of growing up to do so I forgive some of the most obvious flaws and failures — but not for much longer. I’m hoping that the writing will improve soon but with the number of new M/M authors entering the market every day with no editor in sight it doesn’t bode well for the future.
Thanks for taking the time Quinn. Since it’s now just after 5.00 A.M. I think I’ll go to bed. 🙁
Hi Wave,
great thought-provoking post, as always. As you know, I’m a fairly new reader/writer in this subgenre, but the very thing that most attracts me is that these are romances that bear very little resemblence to Harlequin style m/f romance. Yes, I love a story about two people finding happiness together, and if there’s some hot sex thrown in then so much the better, but I definitely want a dose of realism too.
I’ve never been sexually conservative myself, and I don’t expect gay male characters to be so. Promiscuity is fine for a fictional character, even after they’ve met their true love, so long as any hurt feelings are dealt with in the narrative. People in both het and gay relationships have all sorts of different degrees of openness – I have no problem with the idea of a couple in love allowing each other to sleep with other people, either together or apart. I understand why some readers will find that hard to deal with, but not everyone shares their view and I certainly don’t want m/m romances to start warping themselves to fit these kind of expectations.
But as others have said, it’s the characters that are key. Yes, I like a fair amount of sex in a story, but if the characters are great and the plot is engaging, then I will quite happily go without it. I’ve just read Sean Kennedy’s Tigers and Devils, which I loved, and which had very little erotic content. There were some fascinating issues dealt with, though, and both the main and supporting characters were all wonderful.
I think, what I’m trying to say, is I like a bit of variety in my reading, and I want gay characters to act like real gay men, but to find happiness by the end of the story (whether that’s with one, two or more partners).
Hi Josephine
I missed your comment earlier, sorry.
Thanks for this. If I want to read a fairytale I would read a fantasy not an M/M romance. But even with the “romance” conventions there has to be room for realism and what I object to is when some readers can’t wrap their minds around great characterizations that include flawed characters. No one is perfect, even if we like to think so and I get my ass handed to me frequently as a reality check. 🙂
You must have been reading my notes. 🙂 The one thing I look for when I open a new book are flawed characters. If they are perfect I have no time for them because they are unrealistic. One of the reasons I loved the Adrien English series is because of Jake who had many flaws. I would never have been so attached to the series if he and Adrien had a regular run of the mill “romance.” I read a series recently where the main protagonist was so perfect he made me want to barf – perfect looks, wonderful personality, everyone loved him even children and dogs. GAH.
Thank you for commenting Josephine.
Hey Wave,
Great post! Thank you for asking for my input. I know I’ve already had my say, but I wanted to comment on what Ethan said “Is it really merely the sex scenes or are the stories as a whole becoming too formulaic?”
For me, I think it’s the whole “formula feeling” in some (certainly not all) m/m stories that is tiresome. I suppose there are a limited amount of ways to tell a story of how 2 men meet and fall in love, but why do so many seem so familiar when I read them? (Not Ethan’s stories of course!) 😉
There is not right or wrong answer to this question. I do think that the genre is expanding very quickly and can encompass all of our tastes.
Hey TJ
Thanks for helping out – I really appreciate your input.
If it feels like a formula to you, think about what it’s like for a reviewer who has to read hundreds of these books every year and write (hopefully) intelligent reviews. Sometimes it’s downright depressing.
Don’t pay Ethan any compliments or he will get a swollen head (the big one) LOL.
What do I expect?
From m/m fiction in general:
believable characters. Not necessarily likeable.
sex that fits the story. Don’t shoe-horn it in.
a good plot. Give me adventure. Give me fun. Sex in a different location every chapter is not a plot.
strong worldbuilding. Don’t get me started.
readable prose–a minimum of spelling errors, exclamation points and adverbs
From m/m romance:
a developing relationship, even with insta-lust/desire and quick love. I’ve had characters say “I love you” by page 40, and move in within three months. (This isn’t unrealistic, as two of my mother’s marriages were on 3 months acquaintance.)
No Big Misunderstanding or Carrying The Idiot Ball! I hate smart characters that act stupid for the sake of conflict.
A happy ending. Can be happy for now (there is still tension), happy for a while (danger still lurks), or happy forever.
Hi Angel
I agree with most of what you’re saying except that I’m not convinced about the insta love
A very high percentage of the books I have read have insta love in order to make the “romance” designation because that’s the only way to achieve the HEA in a short book. I’m really getting tired of it. I think authors need to be more imaginative and give readers complex stories with flawed characters rather than the stereotypical romances with fluffy cardboard cut-out characters than we have been getting.
What do you think about the cheating question? Is it cheating if two characters in the story who are not yet committed to each other, have sex with other men, as long as the other partner is aware of this? Or is that dating?
You know, if Ethan weren’t such a troublemaker, this wouldn’t even be a topic. Imagine him having the unmitigated gall to allow a single, unattached man to have sex with another single, unattached man before the romantic plot portion of his book even begins. Damn you Ethan! *shakes fist* 😉
Seriously, Wave, here’s the deal. M/M fiction should not mirror M/F fiction at all except in that both feature a romantic/sexual attraction between two (or more) people involving an emotionally moving story that may or may not end in an HEA or HFN. Why? Because gay men (praise god hallelujah!!!) are not women. The entire dynamic is different between two (or more) men than it is between a man and a woman (…*sigh*… or more).
So cheating sucks. But it does happen in real life. And if it can happen there, why shouldn’t it happen in M/M fiction? Bareback and the Adrien English series (and we all know Jake!) are some of the most gripping, unforgettable books I’ve ever read. Why? Partially because of the amazing characters and their hard-but-worth-it journey, but partially because of the extracurricular activities and how they made me feel. (Don’t even get me started on Tor! Love the guy, but goddammit!)
But you know what else happens in real life? Guys have sex with other guys and they don’t end up spending the rest of their lives together. Or even the rest of the week. Or day. Or night. Hell, hour! I know it can be distracting and maybe even a bit distasteful, but it’s real life–and isn’t that part of the allure of this genre? It would really be a shame if someone missed out on Ethan’s beautiful book (or anyone else’s) because of a little NSA sex that had nothing to do with the main romance.
Just give me real life guys-who-like-guys with real life guy issues in real life situations (or dramatized ones that make sense). Make them work for it, put them through hell and gimme a reason to give a damn about them, eh?
Oh, and for the love of all that’s holy, stop with the weeping cocks and the melting into his arms. I’ve never melted (perhaps yielded, relaxed, relented or softened, but never ever melted) and my dick has never had a good cry. I promise you that!
Budsjsguy (someday you will have to tell the meaning of this name) 🙂
Ethan is the bane of my reading life. If his books weren’t so great I would throw him on the ground and stamp his stomach out.
I agree that the allure of M/M is that the characters are so different from het and I hope that they are not compromised because some readers want more warm and fluffy stories of “guys washing each other’s hair and crying.” 🙁 I read this sub genre because the stories give me an avenue into a different lifestyle that I would never experience otherwise, since I’m a woman and straight. Even though I have gay friends I look to M/M to illustrate the issues, trials and tribulations that gay men experience in a fictionalized way. I already know what it’s like to be female and I DON’T want more of the same when I read an M/M book.
I have no idea why everyone is so upset because a guy dared to date another man before he became involved with the one true love, if there is such a thing. 🙂 It’s not as if he had an agreement with anyone else that he wouldn’t screw around. Are people (men and women) supposed to wait until they meet their One True Love to have sex? What era are we living in? Victorian?
I broke up at this. 🙂 You remind me of another gay man (Stuart) who visited the site occasionally and who would come up with comments like this. So if your cock never melted or had a good cry maybe it twitched a time or two? 🙂
I totally agree that M/M and het are two different animals and they should never have the same elements, except maybe the HEA/HFN without which they can’t be sold as romances apparently. Aside from that, gay men are nothing like straight women and I don’t understand why some authors and readers insist on twisting and bending these stories so that they resemble het. What is wrong with this picture? Everything!!! As for the cheating, as I said in the post, Bareback is still one of my top 3 favourite books. Sure, Tor was a scumbag for what he did, but it made the book so much richer, realistic and vibrant for me. Chris Owen and Jodi Payne have another “cheating” book of a different kind that I also love and it’s called “Sex, Lies and Celluloid;” I reviewed it over 2 years ago. This is a very funny book. I’m linking it in case you’re interested
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=28
I don’t have a problem with characters acting human, and that’s what cheating is – a human failure – it makes the book a much better read when the characters act realistically and are not cardboard cut outs.
There was a really good discussion on GayWritersReaders a month or two ago, mainly between Victor and Josh, but with plenty of other authors weighing in. I particularly liked one of Josh’s points, that if you are going to label what you write as a romance, you need to meet the conventions of the genre or face the consequences of disappointed/upset readers. If you don’t want to write to the genre’s conventions, then you should either label your work as something else (fiction with romantic elements, etc), or expect the fallout.
Hi Chris
I think I did the “romance” post several weeks ago. 🙂
My question here is when do you call it cheating? If two guys are NOT in a committed relationship I call it dating if they go out with and have sex with others, as long as both know the score. I know a lot of serial daters. Some readers want the protagonists to have sex only with their One True Love, even if they don’t know the person is the OTL yet, and neither has declared himself as being in love. What do you think? Is it dating or cheating?
I love flawed characters and if the protagonists are too perfect, especially sexually, I feel that the author has copped out.
I read het romances and m/m romances. I began reading m/m romances because there were so many books that caught my attention/interest not because I was disillusioned with het romances. Having said that, I am one of “those” readers who would prefer a realistic book over one with perfect characters who have a perfect love story, and a perfect happily ever after. I like flawed characters, and I like characters who have to struggle through issues to find their HEA or HFN. I don’t want/need/expect a HEA or HFN. My basic requirement is a well written story with a believable plot.
I’ll confess-I’m not a fan of instanti-love plots. And that goes for both genres. A person may be sexually attracted to someone at first sight, but real love takes time.
The only plot that I really don’t like in the het genre is the dreaded, tired, worn out woman in peril plot. Give me a good book about a relationship good/bad/indifferent any day of the week, and keep the peril in a mystery.
My short answer is when I read het or m/m romance, give me reality. Part of my enjoyment of reading a m/m romance is the insight I gain into a life that is different from my own.
Great blog post. Very insightful, and I love the fact that you provided us with male insight into m/m books.
Hi Kathy
Thank you for commenting. I’m really pleased to find a reader such as yourself who is looking for stories with believable, realistic characters rather than the stereotypical protagonists that are found in M/M. If more authors read comments from readers such as yourself I strongly believe that they would be strongly motivated to give us books with characters that move us.
I think Ethan would love to read your comments since his stories are all reality based. 🙂
The guys drop by because I promise them eye candy. 😉
The insta-love is why I like short stories about an established relationship. In a short, I think the whole thing needs to be devoted to the realization of love. Sex can be included in that.
I absolutely believe in lust at first sight. You see someone in passing on the street and your mouth waters and every erogenous zone in your body yells “DO WANT!” And I think a lot of people mistake that for love.
I don’t believe in “falling in love” or “being in love.” (I’m a terrible cynic for a romance writer) But I believe other people believe in it and will say they’re in love when they’re just in lust. I know a lot of men believe in love at first sight.
So I really don’t have a problem with showing people who are only in lust saying “I love you,” because they think they do. I like people jumping right into relationships that they later pull back and go “WTF was I thinking?” and try to make work.
As for “cheating” that’s a REALLY complex question. I number too many poly folk among my acquaintance to ever think of cheating as clear cut again. And these are men. They tend to see things a little differently.
If you’re seeing other people before any commitment, that’s just playing the field.
If you are committed, it doesn’t have to be exclusive, but rules have to be negotiated with your primary.
Only if you are exclusively committed or if you break the agreed-upon rules is it cheating.
If you are an exclusive item and one partner is coerced, the other cannot use that against them. “I’d rather hold my virtue and die,” will ALWAYS make me throw the book across the room.
And that is my definition for real life and for books.