Today T.A. Chase’s post is on a topic about which I feel strongly. I don’t believe there is enough diversity in M/M romances – sometimes the heroes are so homogeneous it’s difficult to tell them apart. Almost 18 months ago I wrote about a whole range of characters absent from M/M (men of different religious backgrounds, ethnic minorities, physically challenged men, older heroes – this includes anyone over the age of 30) in a post titled Exploring Diversity in M/M; not much has changed since then. Now T.A. is asking the question: What you want in your M/M characters?
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Hey everyone, Wave asked me to return for another interesting blog discussion. At least, I hope you find it interesting. 🙂 In rummaging through my brain for a topic to write on, I got to thinking about realistic characters. I don’t mean the things Stuart pointed out in his observations, and Wave posted about here.
What I’m talking about are heroes who are disabled in some way, whether he’s in a wheel chair like in Sweet Toppings by Carol Lynne, or lost his hearing because of war like in Capturing Perfection by Trina Lane. Heroes who have to struggle through life, not just because they’re gay, but because they have other challenges to deal with.
Three of my books out this year have heroes like that. Not Seeing is Believing has a blind vampire. Be the Air For You has a hero who is going deaf, and in Lift Your Voice, Bran has lost the lower half of his leg to a road-side bomb in Iraq.
Now, some would say m/m romance, or romance in general, is about the fantasy that everyone can have a happily ever after…or a happy for now ending. That the perfect man is out there just waiting for us-or our heroes-to find them. And it is true. With a little bit of hope, we all can find a person to love and live with, though more often than not, they aren’t perfect. 🙂
What I was wondering is this: Do you, as readers, like to read stories about men who are slightly less than perfect? They might be older than usual, or not quite a hard body. One of the heroes could be in a wheelchair, blind, or deaf. Or do you like reading about perfect men? There’s no wrong answer to those questions…lol.
Also, what else would you like to see in the books you read? Topics, ethnicities, or places you would like to see more of in your books?
Thanks Wave, and all of you, for letting me chat with you today. I hope you have a great Tuesday.
Thanks for an in interesting topic, which I also feel strongly about 🙂
I am personally quite tired of seeing perfectly looking white guys in romance books over and over and over again. Oh I understand that romance is an escapism, and I do not mind reading about handsome guys, of course not. But I do not want to read about handsome guys all the time, I really don’t. To me reading about ordinary guys finding love, guys with disabilities, guys of different races and nationalities is much more heartwarming and wonderful.
One of my very favorite books in this genre ever is Shell Shocked by Angelia Sparrow and Naomi Brooks, I want more books like this one, much more.
Oh and if author decides to write about two handsome guys, whose looks are perfect, could we at least not to have them larger than life? Could they show some characters flaws if their looks are perfection?
Because perfect characters are so so boring to read about IMO.
I’d like to see more guys who aren’t gorgeous. Average-looking guys, guys over 30, guys who maybe have love handles. The great, overwhelming majority of the population are sort of average-looking, and it would be nice to see some of them finding love, too.
As someone with a couple of chronic illnesses, it is also always nice to see characters with some nagging health problems, things that don’t necessarily rule their lives, but that they have to be aware of sometimes. How about some diabetic or arthritic characters?
Completely agree with what you said Gail, it is as if characters over 30 cease to exist for most authors as eligible for love lol. Oh and when you are writing character who is in his 30s-40s, it seems like he always has to fell in love with the guy in his early twenties. It is as if author is determined that at least half of her couple just has to be young and gorgeous. That is why “Family unit” by ZA Maxfield was such a breath of fresh air for me, OMG somebody remembered that people in their 40s -50s CAN find love with somebody their own age too.
I agree Sirius – I was pleasantly surprised by ZA’s “Family Unit”. Likewise, several of Carol Lynne’s heroes aren’t perfect young men. She’s had several in their late 30-late 40s… a few in 50s iirc (the Doctors in her Cattle Valley come to mind).
As for the question: I too prefer some main characters that aren’t perfect. Especially the non-white (or inter-racial couple), older &/or less-than-perfect. Sorry, but most of the IT types I’ve known in my life – straight or dubious – have little interest in pumping iron in a gym. To see more religious-tension would be interesting to me to read.
Like Ally below, I tend to avoid most stories (m/m or het) that are contemporary settings – I read romance to escape. Although about a dozen authors do entice me to stay in the “present” world.
This is a great topic! I totally agree, perfection is dull. If a character is ridiculously good-looking, he or she should have some sort of deep, dark character flaw to make them fascinating.
I’ve recently noticed that while I find the idea of a physically disabled hero very interesting and would love to read a well-written book about one, I’ve so far avoided the books I know of, and I think I know why. I’m an RN. I’ve been a nurse for over 20 years, with a specialty in brain and spinal cord injury, but I do have some experience in a wide range of things. It makes me VERY picky about what I see in movies and TV, and what I read in books. I think I’m subconsciously avoiding any glaring mistakes in the medical-related details. Those things bug me in movies and TV, but TBH I kind of expect them because I’ve come to expect TV and movie writers to be a little lazy (sorry if I’m talking to any here!). But I expect authors of novels to be better than that and it disappoints me if I find things in books that I know are wrong, even if logically I know it would be difficult for a non-medical person to know those particular details. Silly, I know, but there you are. And this isn’t aimed at anyone in particular, it’s just me being ridiculous!
In my writing, I don’t know why I haven’t written physically disabled heroes yet. Laziness on my part, probably. I’ve tended to do heroes with various traumas in their past causing emotional/psychological problems instead. And I’ve written (and continue to write) heroes in their thirties and forties, and ethnically varied heroes. I need to step up my game and write someone with a physical disability. I’m leaving out people who shouldn’t be left out. I do have a plan for a future book about a Cherokee man who’s overweight and diabetic! He’s already pretty clear in my mind, and I like him. I think you guys will like him too 😀
I’d love to read a story about an overweight diabetic Cherokee.
I’m a Cherokee man who is overweight and diabetic!
No seriously I am. Good character choice Ally.
-Cole
Thanks Cole 🙂 I’ve worked with members of the Eastern Band a great deal at the hospital where I work. I’ve seen some of the same folks come in over and over again with health problems based in diabetes. I really hope I can do right by the people I’ve come to know, both their health struggles and their culture, when it comes time to write this book!
Ally
I have consulted you on many occasions when I’m reviewing books where the health details are skimpy and the recovery periods are incredibly unrealistic. You have been so helpful to me and I wish that the authors had consulted you or someone like you in the first place, before they wrote their books.
As you can see Ally, this site has bloggers from all over the globe, literally. With visitors from 165 countries I think the readers can offer all kinds of help in ethnically diverse characterizations to authors who want to avail themselves of it. All they have to do is email me and I will post something on the site.
Wave, that is just one of the many, many reasons I love your blog <3
“Im”perfect all they way, frankly. Older, disabled, overweight, average looking, whatever. I prefer to read about everyday characters, not total hunks. Although that’s nice sometimes, it all just blends together after a while.
Thanks for all your comments, everyone. That’s what I wanted to know, because I like to read books about imperfect men.
I have an idea for a hero who is Muslim, and has to come out to his parents. How does he fit it in with his religious beliefs without losing them? I don’t want him turning away from Allah, but I want him to be honest with himself.
I’ve started the story, but mostly from the other guy’s pov. That’s because while I love the idea of having a Muslim as a character, I don’t know anything about Islam, and I don’t want to offend anyone by writing something that isn’t real or true.
Hmmm…arthritic hero. I could write one because my own personal hero has severe arthritis, so I have experience dealing with it.
Please keep the suggestions coming. You never know who might be reading and who might get inspired by your comments. 🙂
The books I love reading the most would have to be where the main characters are even at the relationship. I hate for someone to do the less character wrong and that character is like “oh thats ok I forgive” Bullcrud..I hate cheating in any form and if it happens no one is forgetting they may forgive but…anywhoooo I want a story that has less than perfect people because no one is perfect. I want a story about a guy who was abused as a child and finds it hard to be touch but finds his savior after being attack in a med unit for emergency (the guy has no insurance) and the savior is just a cook, janitor, or pencil pusher. LOL
As illustrated by this post, all people aren’t built the same, Cynthia, so of course some people can forgive what other people can’t. Some people can forgive cheating and others can’t. I know a woman who continued to love and forgive a man who cheated on her for 50+ years. Anytime ANYONE talks about a “universal” reaction or feeling or experience I shake my head because the more you know about the world around you, the more you realize that there are only two universal human experiences. Life and Death. That’s it.
The only interesting flaws to me are realistic flaws. I know some authors try and give their characters flaws, but they’re usually something like…being insecure about their really, really good looks. Or something that isn’t so much a flaw as a strength taken to excess. A workaholic who neglects his partner or a guy who domineers over his little femme partner (who usually turns out to sort of like that anyway).
How about something like an obsessively jealous guy who verges on violence? (But doesn’t veer over that line because abuse is hard to make romantic).
One of the most common bad things that happens in real life is one partner cheating on the other, but it’s clear from the response hear that that’s a little TOO realistic. *g*
And that, again, is part of the trouble in m/m romance. Well, romance in general. We talk about wanting diversity and realism, but here’s a review I received for Somebody Killed His Editor which is about a forty-year old out-of-shape writer with a bad back and a lot of well-founded insecurities.
if Christopher Holmes and JX Moriarty are meant to replace Adrien English and Jake Riordan, I don’t think I’ll be going along for the ride. Somehow I could always buy the idea that Adrien would end up with the incredibly hot cop, but since all descriptions of Christopher are of a middle-aged, balding, overweight, out-of-shape zhlub (who whines a lot!), it’s a stretch to think the incredibly hot cop in this story (or will it be a series?) only has eyes for him….If you haven’t yet, do yourself a favor and read all the Adrien English books instead.
Where she got “balding,” God only knows! But you see my point?
And how much heat have I taken for regularly writing characters with chronic health issues? A LOT. I think Ally’s reaction is pretty common, in fact. Most romance readers don’t want a lot of depressing reality in the midst of the fantasy.
This isn’t to say that I won’t continue to write these characters, just that writers need to be aware that not everyone will be falling over with joy. The best romances — in my opinion — ground enjoyable fantasy elements in a believable reality.
Josh, the fact your characters have chronic health problems is one of the things I like about your works. It makes the characters more believable to me, but then I’ve got chronic health problems myself.
That’s very kind of you to say, Gail. I appreciate it. I do try and mix it up, but it’s not like making widgets. Writers keep tracking back to the same themes and motifes — well all do it, whether we’re John Irving or S.J. Windflower. ;-D And the more prolific you are, the more your obsessions show.
Josh, of course readers’ reactions are different. I am sure there are plenty of readers who want to read about gorgeous hunks only all the time, and I do not think they will have to worry about lack of reading material any time soon. All I am saying is that readers who want to read about diverse characters exist too and I wish writers would remember about us as well. Oh and no, cheating is not TOO realistuc for this reader at all, I say bring it on, if it happens in real life love stories, why can,t it happen in romance? The only difference to me is that in romance it will end happily or at least hopefully. I had to laugh at the review you quoted. I loved that Christopher has ordinary imperfect looks, LOVED it. I want more characters like him, bring it on please.
Thank you, Sirius. That’s kind of you to say. That example is one reason why I try to avoid reading reviews — because negative comments carry an unfair weight. And I believe this is true for all of us in every aspect of our lives. For all the people who tell us we’re funny and smart and talented, it’s the comments about being ugly or weird that always resonate. Although, happily, that does change as we mature. To an extent.
That wasn’t EXACTLY my reaction, Josh, if you’ll notice in my post. As a nurse, I hate seeing people get the details wrong. That irritates the ever lovin’ fuck out of me. In fact, I agree with you on the “too much realism” thing. I fully expect to be smacked when some readers don’t like my overweight diabetic Cherokee hero because he makes a lot of his own problems by being non-compliant with his treatment regimen. This is a HUGE problem across the board in my area and I’d like to address that in my fiction.
No, I know, Ally. Your situation is slightly different, but I do know from trying to sell the AE series (carefully researched and medically approved, by the way) ;-D that I could NOT sell it to a mainstream publisher if Adrien was going to have a heart condition. End of story. That was simply “too depressing.” And that viewpoint was universal.
Good grief, that’s ridiculous. Although it shouldn’t surprise me, I guess. Mainstream romance still isn’t buying gay, unless you’re Suz Brockmann. Clearly they’re WAY out of touch. Pfft.
Josh
I read and reviewed this book and loved it. I guess my opinion is somewhat different from this reviewer’s. Of course readers have different opinions because each of us is different – sometimes we have a bad day and it affects our opinions on different ‘moments’ in life, including books. I’ll just say that one of the reasons I love to read your books is because the characters are diverse and not twenty somethings with 8 packs and no brain. They have LIVED and experienced life – not that all twenty somethings are TSTL. 🙂
Cynthia, that sounds like it would be a great story. 🙂 Hmmm…a janitor saving a guy in an emergency room? I have a story I started where one of the heroes is a doctor. I could always change that…lol. But it’s got aliens in it. (the ET kind, not the illegal kind.)
And you know what? I feel the same way about cheating. I won’t read-or finish reading-a book where there’s cheating.
TA
>>I feel the same way about cheating. I won’t read-or finish reading-a book where there’s cheating.<< I guess that I can't interest you in reading Bareback by Chris Owen, one of my very very M/M favourite books.
Wave,
I actually did read Bareback, and while it was a good book, I never read any of the sequels to it. 😀 I’ve read some of Chris’s other books, just once the cheating happened, I was too afraid to read the other ones in the series because I didn’t want it to happen.
T.A., here’s a real-life (illegal)alien story. I have a friend who lives, works and goes to school in Arizona. When the state of Arizona passed it’s law cracking down on illegal aliens, his boyfriend had to move back to Mexico. They visit whenever they can. My friend is studying to be a nurse. You could still tweak your story: male nurse helps save the life of an illegal alien, they fall in love, but the boyfriend has to return to his country of origin.
By the way, Wave, the site looks tremendous. Wow!
Thanks Josh.
I’m sending every author a bill for $1 and will watch them run. Kidding!
We’re still working on a few “improvements”. I think right about now my best friends Christian and Lynn are about ready to kick the crap out of me so I’m hiding out here and not answering emails. 🙂
I think diversity in our heroes is essential, because heroes in real life come in all shapes, sizes and colors. Even if you’re talking about school teachers and stock brokers, or vampires and magicians, adding racial, religious or physical (hearing v non, etc) identities into the mix make them more real. Not to mention characters that can be identified with on some fundamental level.
I am not so sure I would necessarily be interested in reading books with physically flawed characters just for the sake of story being more realistic. That’s not generally what makes me read a book. On the opposite, it usually makes me hesitant to read it since it often used as a trick to avoid good characterization. I like realism in character and dialogue, or what I guess we would call here, three-dimensional characters, but that can be done with a normal dude. Doesn’t have to be gourgous but he doesn’t have to be crippled either.
Take Mexican Heat for example, there the blindness of one of the characters added depth, and interesting dynamic. A very independent person suddenly couldn’t take care of himself. That kind of flaw is interesting if the author makes good use of it. Amor on retrograde had the jelous, overbearing lover that didn’t step over the line.
And Josh, I don’t mind Holmes being older and a little out of shape because that just adds to the dynamic and mystery. Why does the hot cop like him so much? There has to be something interesting there right? And his grumpiness is charming!
I guess what I am saying is that diversity can be attained with small means, no need to make the character so unusual that it is hard to connect.
no need to make the character so unusual that it is hard to connect.
Here’s the key right there. There must be something about the character that readers can connect to. Like, for all the flaws a character may have (and I agree that giving them a flaw just to add “realism” isn’t enough — it’s got to be intrinsic to the character) they’ve still got to be someone the reader cares about.
This isn’t literary fiction — or rather, even if it is, it’s also romance, which means it has to engage the reader’s feelings.
Josh
I wrote a post over 2 years ago when I first satarted the old blog and noticed that all the heroes were perfect – I asked the question ‘Where are all the Ordinary People in Books” I have linked it for those who want to read it
http://www.gayromance.org/?p=110
The theme is the same. We have lost sight of the fact that men are not all hot studs, and despite the fact that these characters are popular some of us are intelligent enough to want more.
I like variety. Sometimes I’m in the mood for perfect hardbodied hunks, sometimes a less than perfect hero with physical or personality flaws. I think there is room for all.
I would love to see more emphasis on different ethnicities. Not just visible minorities, but something like Swedish or Ukranian. I know America is a melting pot (where Canada is more likely to encourage multi-culturalism) but I’d like to see more characters whose names aren’t Brown or Smith. KZ Snow writes characters with ethnic last names some but let’s see them eating cabbage rolls or weiner scnitzel or having Grandma make plum pudding for Christmas, just little touches of culture, not a lesson in the culture, but just a touch of something that is not white bread middle America.
There are so many books I certainly don’t want only handicapped or Jewish or flawed heros, but I definetlly want some.
Great piece TA.
Oops need to contradict myself… I think romance is a sort of escape and too harshly “real” characters (as in realistic = grim) turns readers aways. So I guess the trick is to add diversity but not take away the escape and the fantasy of a story?
Yes, absolutely. It has to be a balance. The aspiring m/m writer who runs off to write a gritty romance about catheters and diapers and wheelchairs is going to find it hard going.
Effective romance is a blend of realism and fantasy. We get realism in our day to day lives. We turn to romance fiction for something else. But that something else has to be believable for most of us.
Is that a contradiction? I don’t know.
“Effective romance is a blend of realism and fantasy. We get realism in our day to day lives. We turn to romance fiction for something else. But that something else has to be believable for most of us.”
I couldn’t have said it better Josh. No surprise there! I’m all for the fantasy, and escapism, but I also need some basis in reality in order to feel some connection to the characters. Perfect people are not very interesting. I also love reading about characters that are not 20 years old, white and built. I second more diversity.
Great topic TA!
The aspiring m/m writer who runs off to write a gritty romance about catheters and diapers and wheelchairs is going to find it hard going.
Well, in Sweet Topping Carol Lynne pulled off the catheter and the wheelchair, but there were a) no diapers, b) nobody could call it gritty, and most importantly c) she’s no aspiring author but a well established one. But maybe more authors who are not aspiring any longer but well known and liked could take risks newbies can’t? Like many others I get frustrated/bored by stories that feature impossibly beautiful/fit/young men. There must be life and love for not quite so perfect people? That’s real romance for me.
Whether they’re perfect hunks or differently-abled heroes (I like both btw), it’s all for naught if I can’t identify and care about the characters in some way. Like they say… It’s all in the execution.
I too like diversity….three of my favorite books are Amy Lane’s Promise series(Keeping Promise Rock and Making Promises) and Truth in the Dark….all the characters are flawed in some way, but they each “see” their partners as perfect. No matter if the flaws are physical or emotional each man sees their love as perfect for them. Amy Lane shows that no matter the “disability” whether emotional or physical everyone has someone out there that sees them as perfect. I too loved, loved, loved ZA Maxfiuelds Family Unit. Richard and Logan were a wonderful illustration of finding love no matter how old you are.
Though there have been several books I have read fairly recently with characters of different races or religions finding each other, I would like to read more. I am blessed to have an amazing family (of my choosing) that consists of people from many walks of life. We all have different cultures, physical and emotional needs, spiritual and ethnic backgrounds, and yet, we are a family of our own making. I would be interested in reading about a any combination of the above, because I see it every day in my life. While I do enjoy reading about those perfect people finding each other, I enjoy the “imperfect” people finding each other too 🙂 (Sorry to have babbled on and on, apparently I had a lot to say this morning *winks*)
So true, T.A., that there’s as much diversity within the gay population as there is within the straight population. But this question remains: regardless of what some readers claim to want, what do MOST readers want?
I think many authors in this genre — the good ones, anyway — have featured “flawed” characters and relationships. But there are certain significant issues that will invariably, as Josh pointed out, get us spanked if we dare explore them.
I would LOVE to see more stories that deal with infidelity, mental health problems, substance abuse, and domestic violence. These are far more common sources of conflict and pain than, say, physical handicaps (although I’m sure as heck not trying to diminish the challenges posed by health problems!) It’s regrettable that authors find it necessary to steer clear of issues that affect so very many people, but that seems to be an unavoidable result of writing romance.
This is true too. If the handicap is merely stage dressing — which I’ve certainly seen — then it becomes another one of those flaws that isn’t *really* a flaw.
One thing I used to notice way back when I read het romance was what a total, unmitigated asshole the hero always was if he had some physical handicap. It was like that was supposed to be the way a “real man” dealt with being blinded or paralyzed. Like acceptance and adaptation was for weaklings. Now, granted, mostly these characters were eventually healed by miraculous operations, but even at the time I thought this was sort of a weird attitude to promote.
At the same time, being all Miss Merry Sunshine about being paralyzed wasn’t realistic either…I think that’s what the problem was. There was no realistic addressing of such issues (that’s changed by the way although the challenge remains — realism balanced by the romantic fantasy).
In fact, writers always being desperate to find what might sell, physical handicaps are increasingly a trend in m/m fiction — I think you’ll see more and more of it. But your observation that this is perhaps more colorful and symbolic than strictly realistic is accurate.
Very rarely do we see m/m romance where there is a true growth arc in the main characters. Possibly because some of this stuff just makes us uncomfortable!
“…mostly these characters were eventually healed by miraculous operations…”
Okay, this would be a wallbanger for me. At this point in time, there is no — I repeat, NO — cure for paralysis. NONE. There are some promising things going on in research, particularly with stem cell research, but right now there is NO CURE. Any author who tries to tell me Our Hero had an operation then got up out of the wheelchair he’s needed for more than a few days and walked again, just lost me. Because that doesn’t happen. Unless it’s set in the future or an alternate universe. Nope nope nope.
[/Picky Nurse moment]
You know what annoys me? When a couple falls in love and things seem to be going pretty well (say one hero has a physical disability) but then “oh my lawd, due to the healing powers of looooove, they are heeeallled”. Ugh. As if only falling in love could make someone walk again, or speak again or get over depression. Sure, it can’t hurt to have love and support, but if a hearing person is perfectly happy with a deaf person, it dosn’t make their relationship better just because one is no longer physically imperfect.
I read a book like that and while the disability may have been psychosomatic rather than physical, they were getting along just fine as it was with neither one stressed about it, but he was “cured” once he realized the depth of his love. Sigh. Don’t feel the need to make it perfect if it’s working fine.
Seriously??? Oh dear sweet FSM, help >_<
**headdesk**
Yeah, I'm right there with you, Tam. That's just annoying.
Tam, I firmly believe that a committed loving relationship makes a huge difference in a person’s life, but the idea that it makes everything magically perfect? Well, this is the very thing we try and warn kids about, isn’t it? Don’t look to another person to make you happy. Don’t look to another person to make you complete.
In fact, those unrealistic ideas are why some people believe that romance novels are damaging and unhealthy.
I prefer a little more reality in my books than the average reader, so I am all in favor of any flaws an author wants to bring with their characters. My favorite saying-life isn’t perfect, so why should the books I read be perfect?
darn, maybe I’m just in a strange mood today but this comment bugs me
“no need to make the character so unusual that it is hard to connect.”
what is so unusual about a handicapped person? I have muscular dystrophy, am a mother of 2, married, go to (or better yet roll) to PTA meetings and the kids basketball games.
I would love to read more stories about characters that face physical challenges, guys in their 40s and up :-), avarage guys, hey and there are some hot bold, or balding guys out there. 🙂
darn, maybe I’m just in a strange mood today but this comment bugs me
“no need to make the character so unusual that it is hard to connect.”
I don’t think that comment is about physical handicaps.
Personally, I’m going to have trouble connecting to a story about a reformed pedaphile. And yes, there is a novel (possibly a series by now) about a reformed pedaphile struggling with his addiction. You can get away with it in mainstream crime fiction. It ain’t the stuff of romance.
Wow…you all have been busy while I’ve been away. 🙂
Thanks for posting, Josh, Ally, and everyone.
I do believe sometimes writers have to write what they feel, even while doing it, they know most of their readers won’t like it. Goodness knows, no one can please everyone all the time. Just not possible.
All of the points made are thought-provoking. Keep it up. 🙂
Sorry, TA. I tend to get carried away and it’s a topic I’m very much into — but I seem to be dominating the discussion, so I’ll leave you all to it and check back at the end.
Great topic!
Josh
Don’t leave. I was enjoying your perspective. I think the more authors and readers give their opinios and perspective the more authors will understand what we are looking for in our books. Not perfect heroes, just people who deal with everyday circumstances and challenges (some much more difficult than others) but eventually they have to deal with their personal circumstances. No one expects that a paralyzed man will be miraculously healed by the power of prayer but having a supportive partner can make their disability less than.
oh no…don’t leave. I don’t mind that you’re talking about it. If it’s something you’ve thought about and feel strongly about, then you should say something.
I want to hear what you have to say…just like I want to hear what everyone has to say. It’s important to get all the people talking and you’ve done that. 🙂
I think there is moderation in everything… sometime you want to escape and read about the perfect guy or a perfect relationship but them sometime you want realism. Personnally it depends what type of mood I am in. TA love you work have read everything you have written so you cant be going to wrong 😀
And my perfect man is geek…
I think I have to say I prefer reality.
I love imperfect characters, because, among other things, when done well and realistically, they are usually really interesting. Whether that “imperfection” is emotional or physical, doesn’t matter to me. I enjoy the story around it, and how it impacts the character’s or both character’s growth. So long as it’s realistic, and not as mentioned above “Love heals all”, and suddenly all imperfections are gone. 🙂 I’m good with it.
One of my favorite romances of all time, probably in my top five no matter how many romances I have read is Whistling in the Dark by Tamara Allen. And this is a very good example of what kind of realism (blended with escapism HEA of course) I am looking for in my romances. I think it comes from reading across the genres all my life, I came to romance to see happy endings, but my other requirements stay same as I applied to any book in any genre, really. I mean, Jack and Sutton are both young and white, but they are both flawed and they both have disabilities after coming back from second world war, so what I am trying to say that no matter how hard I thought about it, there was NOTHING in their story that could not have happened in rl *including* happy ending.
Now, could have their story gone completely different road, which could have also been realistic, but ended up less happily for them? Of course! And more than once during the course of the story I could have seen alternative scenarios. But since it is a romance, author took a road to happy ending, but made it happen the way it *could* have happened in real life, even if it would not have necessarily happened. Hope I am making sense. Oh and no miraculous recovery in that book either, no true love heals all illnesses and takes away all problems, it just makes it easier to bear when you have another person to hold you in the dark. Loved it. LOVED.
Somebody mentioned Carol Lynn’s story where there was a character in the wheelchair, but isn’t that one with the miraculous recovery at the end? If so, not for me.
Sirius,
“Somebody mentioned Carol Lynn’s story where there was a character in the wheelchair, but isn’t that one with the miraculous recovery at the end? If so, not for me.”
Just so you know, he doesn’t have a miraculous recovery. He does have therapy and he does regain a lot of mobility. In further stories of the series you even read about him saying that there are days that the cane and crutches just aren’t enough and he brings the chair out to use. This is absolutely probable in RL.
It depends on my mood.
It’s all good at the right time, fantasy fluff or gritty realism.
There are times when I have had it with male privilege and am making plans to join a lesbian commune and just NEED the guys to be perfect, shallow and not at all struggling with anything. Buff boitoi and sexy sugar daddy having bedroom acrobatics is one of the best antidotes for days when too many men decide to imbue my inferior ladybrain with their penis-given wisdom.
Other days, bring the gritty realism. I’m a horror reader and sometime writer. The grittier the better.
BUAHAHAA – this was perfect:
There are times when I have had it with male privilege and am making plans to join a lesbian commune and just NEED the guys to be perfect, shallow and not at all struggling with anything. Buff boitoi and sexy sugar daddy having bedroom acrobatics is one of the best antidotes for days when too many men decide to imbue my inferior ladybrain with their penis-given wisdom.
So true. And pretty accurate. Sometimes I want the A meets B = HEA with minimal angst & trauma…othertimes, I want mostly PWP Smut, and others where the heroes are so screwed that it only Luv Conquers All.
I am writing a storyabout an overweight imperfect man who is from a seemingly perfect family. I think that is a microcosm for how we feel sometimes about the world at large. That we are standing apart and looking in at everyone else, or that we really only notice others that do not share our own flaws. It’s a defeatist attitude that I think we all share sometimes. I say this because I feel the same way a lot of the time and we gravitate to those characters who deal with the same issues we do (that can be hard sometimes in this genre, but the characters are out there). I know we all hate moaners and whiners, especially in our characters, and so do I. Then I think, but I whine a whole hell of a lot, maybe mostly in my head, but still. What I’m saying is, we all have different flaws, but what I think we intrinsically want is a character like us, but who reacts better, who can teach us.
So bring on the flaws, I say, as long as we get to see the character redeem themselves.
-Cole
“I think we intrinsically want is a character like us, but who reacts better, who can teach us.”
I think you got to the crux of it right there, Cole 🙂
This is a great post and discussion!
I really have no preference, so long as the characters are ‘real’, make me care about them, and evoke emotion – sadness, anger, happiness, fear… S’all good. The character could be the hottest man on the planet or the lowliest, flawed, disabled, addicted… Makes no difference as long as I care.
And… if its not excessively far-fetched. Even though I need the escapism, there are limits to my suspension of disbelief. Hmm… I guess that means a leaning toward reality. 😉 I’ve lost track of who said what, but the blending of reality and fantasy works for me.
I like a lot of Realism in my Fantasy. I like my characters to either have physical, mental, or character flaws. I like for them to grow through the story and learn to deal with or let go of their flaws. Either way works for me.
I honestly don’t like perfect people. Call me prejudiced, I don’t care. I’m not perfect and it always bothers me when other people seem not to have any problems. I always seem to feel like they don’t think I’m good enough for them to let me get to know the real them.
Don’t get me wrong, I love fantasy of every kind except horror. Give me something that makes my imagination go to work, like a good mystery, a far out sci-fi, a full world of fantasy, something in the future, a historical, etc. and I will love it.
Loved reading all of the discussion.
I fogot to say that I agree with Cynthia and TA about never reading a book that has cheating as part of the story line.
However I will say that I know people who have healed, and had better lives when they have forgiven and moved on from one instance of cheating. I don’t mean necessarily that it happened only once, but I do mean that once the cause was other person was dealt with, and then the underlying cause was dealt with they were able to go on and having a loving and fulfilling life together. Constant cheating or unfaithfulness is more than a character flaw or a weakness, its a disregard for the other person in the relationship.
Now back to what I like to read. There will be people who will not have a problem with reading about things like cheating and be able to move past it as long as everything is resolved. There are people who like people variety in their sex lives with their partner involved. I am not one of those people. It’s just not something I am comfortable with reading. There are a number of wonderful books out there that have these aspects in them. I just choose much more often than not to avoid reading them. They are simply what I do not prefer.
OK, one type of “flawed” character I am tired of lately is the injured sportsman. Why do they always have to had their knee blown out?
Hips, Arms, Concussions. I agree there ought to be a variety. Although I am certain blown out knees are easier to research.
Yeah, but why can’t they just be succesful? Or does all gay sportsmen blow their knees out? Seen it sooo many times lately. Yay for Tigers and Devils where the lead man was still a professional player.
With blown out knees they have to retire and then they can come out. Didn’t you read the script Sunshine? LOL
Maybe, from a writers point of view… romance novels are about seducing your reader with your story, making them want to follow and read to the end. Some topics are deal breakers (cheating,s/m,menage,dubious consent), some type of realism can be too much (too depressing, too dark, too dull, too ugly?) and too little diversity leaves the reader bored.
I think character diversity and flaws are important for a story, but they don’t necessarily have to rest on a fundation of physical flaws to be interesting. Though I guess a lot of my favourite m/m characters have had flaws… maybe they have to have the right flaws? 😛
Now that I have been thinking about this for over an hour, I must admit that I also enjoy some light hearted romance once in a while. I tend to like those as my down day reads. Luckily that isn’t too often.
Although I must admit that my favorite sweet or light romances are the ones that have diverse characters.
I don’t really care whether characters are mind-knumbingly, pants-droppingly gorgeous or not. In fact, when I’m reading, I tend to form my own mental image of the characters.
Yes, the hair and eye colors and build do influence that mental image, but unless I’m being constantly beat over the head with ‘he’s so perfect and gorgeous and better than any model ever’? I tend to forget what the characters are ‘supposed’ to look like.
It’s sort of like in RL when you meet someone and their looks are ‘average’ or less, then you stop really noticing as you get to know them better.
I’ve discovered that in stories, much as in my real life, when someone is funny, interesting, nice, and makes me smile, they become more and more attractive to me, regardless of their outward appearance and personality flaws. This applies also to physical and mental differences and disabilities, meaning someone’s wheelchair or lost arm or white cane might be one of the first things I notice about them, but it doesn’t define them any more than their race or eye color or… whatever.
Alernately, someone can be Hotty-McHotterson of Hotville, USA, and a prime specimen of everything considered physically attractive, but if they’re conceited, mean-spirited, ignorant, emotionally or physically abusive, or unrepentant? Whether he’s hot on the outside means fuck-all. And if he IS like that, I want to see him work hard to redeem himself.
So as far as I’m concerned, bring on the average, chubby, disabled (or differently abled) heroes. AND bring on the stunners with their cobblestone abs, anacondas in their trousers, and walnut-cracking buttocks. Let them be flawed and foolish, young and old, strong and needy… but let them be characters I can actually like, because that’s the most important part for me as a reader.
Sorry. I got a bit wordy. Shocking, right? 😛
Point is, I like reading about them all. Guess I should have just said that instead of the long-ass reply. *blushes*
~Tis
Tis
Like you I like reading about all types of characters and don’t mind good looking guys with 6 or 8 packs, but not in every book. I reviewed a series several months ago that everyone praised to the skies and when I started reading the books I realized why they loved them, one of the protagonists was so heart stoppingly gorgeous everyone fell in love with him. Add to that he was the most talented person in the world and not a single person or dog could resist him, I wanted to throw up. I did finish the series but many of the fans hated my reviews because it was as if I had kicked their dog. 🙁
The author is still writing books with fantabulous looking heroes and her fans eat up her books – she’s probably one of the most popular M/M authors around for this reason and not because she writes well, because she doesn’t.
This kind of goes counter to what most of us are saying here.
Wave, isn’t this FUNNY? I was recently thinking about why I continue to buy the books by this author since she writes not just about perfect people, but basically about Gods with no flaws and I constantly constantly roll my eyes when I am reading her books. And no, as I said before I do not enjoy reading about perfect people, period. Even when I am in the mood for two hunks (not often) I want them to have character flaws and hers, well they don’t. And I am still coming back. Why do I do that? And I was actually thinking that she does write well, she does not write flawed characters well (like at all lol), but I enjoy her dialogue and more often than not I actually enjoy a story. Does it make sense?
And I guess part of it is that I am amused as to how Mary Sueish her characters are and for that reason her books are entertaining for me too in the eye roll sort of way, I bet author did not intend that. But I guess till I vote with my dollar there is absolutely no reason for her to actually put some effort into her characterization and if as you said so many fans eat up her books there is no reason for her to do that.
You guessed who the mystery author is. LOL Yes Mary Sue and Gary Stu rolled into one – yet fans eat up her books.
I suppose what everyone says about escapism is true. We readers don’t seem to care how ridiculous the characters are, as long as the guys are gorgeous the books will almost always outsell books that feature great characterizations, an actual plot, incredible writing and a conclusion that makes sense.
Did you read the book with the swords. It was painful! Yet that book garnered 5 stars from almost everyone on Goodreads. 🙁 As usual I was in the minority.
Oh yeah, I think I read all she wrote except those four volume series you reviewed, I guess I decided four volumes of perfectness was too much for me to swallow lol. That book with swords? PAINFUL, and it was even more painfull because it was trying to pass up as fantasy. I am sorry, I am pretty well read in fantasy and well, for me that was not one. And the reason why I keep thinking and trying to solve the mystery of why I keep coming back to her books is precisely because I do NOT come back to any other writer who writes perfect people, I mean I have seen some books with perfect people, but hers are close to being on top, really. Because I mean it when I say that I will take Christopher from Somebody killed editor over ANY of perfect people ANY time. (And I am not just saying it because Josh reads this thread. I liked 5% of his stories less than other 95% and I have no problem saying it. I thought Chris was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. :)).
And I still keep coming back to her books. And of course I am not asking you to solve it for me, but it is just something that really and truly bugs me. I think also part of it is that I truly liked her first book (unless the series were the first, then it would be second). Oh the character was also Garry Stueish and perfectly loveable by everybody except his godawful family, but I thought the character was pulling some pretty awful sh*t. Even if author did not seem to see it as one, she was describing the actions, which really were not perfect imo, so I liked the character because of that. And I liked the world, the social system she created, etc. So anyway, I guess part of it is that I keep hoping that the magic of the first book will come back. BUT the good thing of the book with swords is that it almost cured me of the addiction, almost and I almost have no desire to get part two. SCARY book.
Don’t forget the swords! (Okay, different story, same author, same horrific issues.)
Damn! You figured out my clues and zeroed right in. 🙂 I did review that book with the swords – you should have been the one to suffer the pain. I wanted to stick pins in my eyeballs. LOL She has a new book that’s coming out next week – same characterizations – I’ll bet you that it sells thousands of copies.
Somebody else mentioned Amy Lane, and she wrote two of my recent favourites: Truth in The Dark and Talker.
In the first of the two books, the hero ends up not only with the hump, limp and scars he had for most of his life (the story plays with this subject in an interesting way) but also a happy end.
And in Talker I read the best ever description of serious scars (burns): “proof of Tate’s survival”.
Both books were both fun and really moving. And of course proof that it’s not necessary to have two Adonises (is that the correct plural?) for a good m/m story.
I prefer realism. Personally, I would like to see more books with regular people. Rockstars, actors, and supercops can be fine, but in a lot of ways they are just as big a fantasy as the vampires and werewolves. (Not that there’s anything wrong with that.)
I think there is something really powerful about the meeting and falling in love of two people. . .and that sometimes gets overshadowed by all the window dressing.
And that being said, when real people fall in love they have to deal with their differences, be those of race, religion, socio-economic status, or simply upbringing. Exploring those things about your partner is a wonderful part of discovering each other, even when at the same time it can be the source of tension and drama.
To me the ‘then what’ can be most interesting part of any story. Yes, you are in love and the sex is great. . .those are actually the easy parts. Now make it work. That’s the tough part. And that is where the issues of diversity really come into play. It is one thing to fall in love with someone of a different race. It is another thing to really understand what it means to be a person of color in the US, and how that effects the relationship. And the same could be said of religion, background, etc.
Great topic!
Many comments back, K.Z. brought up the fact that many authors want and do write stories with realistic, flawed characters. She also brought up the questions of what do readers really WANT to read.
I would like to add to her thoughts. I believe that by virtue of reading this blog, most of us are readers out of the ordinary in the m/m sub-genre. That is, we all care greatly about the characterization, setting, plot, and our ability to connect in some way to the characters lives. However, do the majority of the m/m readers care as much about these elements, or do they just read for the gorgeous, good-looking bodies, and the hot sex?
Ultimately, an author writes because of an intrinsic desire to write. But in order to continue to pay the bills and put food on the table, an author who desires to be published and continue to be published, has to stay somewhere within the parameters of what the majority of readers will buy and read. As an established author, isn’t it a little bit easier to stretch and take some risks?
I’m in the camp of liking my realism with some fantasy. I like real characters, complete with flaws (or not), but HEAs or HFNs are a must.
Great discussion. I guess diversity of theme is my friend. Like others have said, the mood I am in can dictate what storyline “type” I will want to read. As I reflect on what I really find myself “wowing” over when I read a story though, it always comes back to realism of emotion and interesting portrayal of the character of the characters! I think this can hold true whether the story is contemporary, historical, fantasy or whatever. I can think of a few authors in particular who just nail the “realism of emotion” factor for me every single time.
One thing I don’t like is obvious sloppy research, or glossing over of certain topics within a story. Authors with great imagination get kudos from me, whether it’s thinking up a fantasy world or a new twist on “the usual”. Any author who can take the non-obvious route with a storyline gets a big thumbs up from me. I do believe there are plenty of authors out there who have written “less than perfect” characters and done a bang up job of it. As far as cheating in a storyline – if it’s vital to the plot and not just thrown in as “filler” and it is dealt with and resolved in a compelling manner, then it’s OK by me. While I read to “escape” I also want to learn and grow from reading experiences. One thing I have really enjoyed and taken away lots of food for thought about from reading M/M – especially the historicals – is putting myself in a different set of shoes so to speak.
Probably clear as mud, seeing as it’s late. 🙂
Great post TA.
Hmmm that is one to ponder. I think, simply said, I like my romance wrapped in a good story and to me it doesn’t matter how that story is represented, weather the heroes or hero are flawed. It is as much the story that counts, the way it written as the happily ever after (or not)
I adore heroes with flaws! It makes them stand out from the oh so perfect herd of perfect bodies and perfect teeth. I don’t mind a nice easy two perfect guys fall in love book but in reality I tend to forget these stories over time. It takes something real to stand up and get noticed by me. Or to stick in my mind.
I think that’s why I tend toward the supernatural stories. The oddity of them is enough so that they can be their oh so otherwise perfect selfs. But when it comes to non sci-fi/supernatural fiction, I love it when the hero has their own issues to conquer.
Right now my fav hero is Vic from PsyCop cause he’s scrawny and neurotic, like me. 🙂
Great topic T.A. 🙂
And good timing as well, since I’m writing a novel from the point of view of a blind man, in a magical fantasy setting, who cannot use magic to see and will not be getting his sight back.
Granted, my story features a gorgeous but weathered detective – tall,dark,broad,deep voice, almost forty – but my main character is a blind 24yr old who has had to fight (with help from his parents) to get where he is now: mostly self-sufficient with a job he was never supposed to have, but is damned good at. Neither man is perfect, but they’ll catch the killer and will end up together 🙂
Reality? Well, it is fantasy, but I am trying to keep it real.
Anyway …
One commenter mentioned something about not remembering what the characters look like, and I am kind of like that (which is why I often forget to write descriptions as well). I like creating my own image of the characters I’m reading about.
Do I want more reality? Yes, definitely.
I don’t read m/m books for the sex or the hunky muscled type, so I’m all for more diverse characters in less than perfect (health) situations. I do, however, read them to spend an hour or two enjoying two men meeting and falling in love, despite the hurdles they have to jump to get there, so that is what I want to end up with. Something with a hint of the bright future ahead that makes me smile when I close the book 🙂
And, Josh, like many others, the imperfections of your characters is what makes me like them and their stories so much. Not to mention that there is something in your writing style that just compels me to read.
Also: your tip about using sun signs to flesh out characters, is the best I ever had.
T.A.: I’ve not read many of your books, but I have to say that Bitter Creek’s Redemption is by far my favourite.
(Geez, I HOPE someone wants to read about an overweight, imperfect character, otherwise “Christmas With Danny Fit” is dooomed!)
Seriously–I like some gritty realism shaken into my fantasy. If I’m going to buy that the chocolate cake is good for me, I need to taste some dust and zucchini in there with it… But, as in all things, it really does depend on WHICH details are presented. Some details will just flip my ‘off’ switch–and some make me say, “Yup. That’s real life. Now let’s see how these guys resolve this problem!” And sometimes, I will suspend my disbelief in order to be happy at the end.